Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Sassarese

From Meta, a Wikimedia project coordination wiki
-> Dumandi pai li nobi linghi/Vichipedìa Sassaresa 

submitted verification final decision

This language has been verified as eligible.
The language is eligible for a project, which means that the subdomain can be created once there is an active community and a localized interface, as described in the language proposal policy. You can discuss the creation of this language project on this page.

Once the criteria are met, the language committee can proceed with the approval and will verify the test project content with a reliable neutral source, such as a professor or expert.

If you think the criteria are met, but the project is still waiting for approval, feel free to notify the committee and ask them to consider its approval.

  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Language code sdc (SILGlottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Sassarese Language name in English
Language name Sassaresu, Turritanu Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q845441 - item has currently the following values:
Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality LTR Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Ethnologue:Sassarese, Altre lingue parlate in Sardegna, site of Regione Autonoma della Sardegna; Map, Lingua sassarese on, Il Sassarese a blog-course, Dizionario Universale della Lingua di Sardegna, Antoninu Rubattu Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.

Project name Vichipedìa, Vikipedia "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone Continent/City "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit Phabricator task. It will include everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings. After creating the task, add a link to the comment.

Proposal (Prupostha)[edit]

Sassarese (local name Sassaresu or Turritanu) is a language spoken by approximately 120,000 people (in a total population of 175,000 inhabitants) in the nort-west coastal areas of Sardinia, Italy; large sassarese-speaking communities are present in Sassari, Stintino, Sorso and Porto Torres; its trasition varieties towards Gallurese, known as the castellanesi dialects, can be heard in Castelsardo, Tergu e Sedini. Sassarese emerges as an urban language of commerce in the age of Giudicati (XIII-XIV century); it is based on a mixture of different languages, namely Corsican, Pisano and Genoan; a strong Logudorese influence can be felt in its phonetics, syntax, and vocabulary, a minor influence was exercised by Catalan and Spanish. There exist many modern and older works both on and in sassarese, and a number of cultural, social and theatre events are regularly held in connection with it. Many people are interested in taking part in this project.

Original text: Il sassarese (nome locale Sassaresu o Turritanu), parlato da circa 120.000 persone (su un totale di 175,000 abitanti), nasce come lingua commerciale cittadina nel XIII-XIV secolo dalla commistione fra còrso, pisano e genovese, per poi essere notevolmente influenzato nel lessico, nella sintassi e nella fonetica dal sardo logudorese, ed in misura minore da Catalano e Spagnolo. Geograficamente è parlato in Italia nella fascia costiera nord-occidentale della Sardegna, principalmente a Sassari, Stintino, Sorso e Porto Torres, ed include i dialetti castellanesi di transizione verso il Gallurese parlati a Castelsardo, Tergu e Sedini. Esistono molteplici pubblicazioni contemporanee e storiche in e su questa lingua oltre a varie iniziative culturali, sociali e teatrali. Diverse persone sarebbero interessate a contribuire a questo progetto.

--Felisopus 06:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion (Dischussioni)[edit]

Arguments in favour (Boni mutibi)[edit]

  • Il sassarese è una minoranza linguistica riconosciuta dalla normativa regionale e nazionale. Inoltre è una lingua che vanta una sua grammatica organica, ben tre dizionari e un'ampia letteratura. Condivido pertanto la proposta di una sezione dedicata alla lingua sassarese. comment by
  • There are five native speakers who are willing to contribute to this test project. Since other Italian dialects have their own Wikipedias, Sassarese should be given the same opportunity and priviledge to have its own language edition of Wikipedia. Sassarese is spoken by 120,000 people and the language code sdc does exist. --Jose77 06:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support Strong support (Appóggiu mannu) Definitely. - Li sassaresi sò li più forthi! e ;) --Jun Misugi (talk) 21:35, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

support!!! --SurdusVII 10:05, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong support Strong support as a native speaker, willing to contribute and hopefully see this project finally bloom. A zent'anni! --Nebhos2019 (talk) 09:53, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support Strong support They say Sassaresu is neither Sardinian nor Corsican language. So it is right to create a sassarese wikipedia (sdc) for that historical community of north-western Sardinia. --Jumpy01 (talk) 22:54, 13 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support Strong support Il sassarse è una lingua romanza, nata intorno al XII secolo, quando si affermava il libero Comune di Sassari che si alleò prima con i Pisani e poi con i Genovesi. Si è formato come lingua d'incontro tra culture e lingue molto diverse tra loro. La punta nord della Sardegna si trovò alla confluenza di traffici mercantili e di interessi coloniali di Liguri, di Catalani, di Pisani, di Castigliani. Cresceva lì la popolazione, per l'arrivo di gruppi che parlavano lingue diverse e il sassarese si formò in modo spontaneo - prima in ambito popolare, poi anche in documenti ufficiali - come punto d'incontro e di sintesi di molteplici linguaggi, come il frutto di una esperienza collettiva e irripetibile. Nel sassarese tutti gli abitanti della zona potevano intendersi.
Dal corso, come dal ligure arcaico, dallo spagnolo come dal toscano antico, il sassarese ha assorbito particolarità fonetiche e lessicali, trovando poi una sua autonomia. Rispetto al sardo logudorese - in precedenza parlato in quella stessa zona - il sassarese attivò un processo di sovrapposizione che maturò nel tempo, ma che ha lasciato tracce evidenti. Il sassarese si distingue dal Gallurese, la lingua parlata nella zona ad occidente della parte settentrionale della Sardegna; pur con evidenti contatti tra le due lingue. Il sassarese trova ancora oggi una sua espressione nel teatro, nella poesia, nella musica popolare. Ha attraversato nove secoli di storia della Sardegna ed è la lingua madre per una consistente parte della popolazione locale della sua zona d'origine. Ha un vocabolario molto ricco e documentato da recenti pubblicazioni.--Fausta Samaritani (talk) 10:13, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Doubtful It is doubtful Abstained Abstained On hold I became aware that the content of the Sassarese Wikipedia is somewhat controversial due to doubtful language and style of editing. So I'm going to abstain from any help or support for now. --Wolverène (talk) 06:56, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Wolverène: Well, that's a pity! I am sorry to read this, Wolverène. The project could really use any help. What exactly is so "somewhat controversial"? I don't understand. :/

I AM STILL ALL FOR IT!!! *thumbs up* --Jun Misugi (talk) 06:54, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Wolverène: I've just marked your vote as abstained and put your precious and always appreciated support on hold, which is alright to you, I hope. Feel free to come back any time you like. You will be very welcome. :) Please let me know if you have further doubts or questions. Reach me on my page if you wish to. --Jun Misugi (talk) 01:46, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please, no more modifying other users' comments, that's not appropriate in many cases. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jun Misugi You may want to read this RFL page about why splitting Sardinian is controversial. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 13:14, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226: Hi! The thing is not at all about splitting the Sardinian macro-language, not for me. No, I don't know Sardinian well. But I do know that Sassarese is linguistically too far away from the "real" Sardinian (on the one hand), and often or in many ways also too different from Corsican (on the other hand!), even though it's closer to the second language than to the first. It's a kind of transitional or bridging idiom, a Sardo-Corsican variety. But, I suppose, actually I am kind of sure, that it will not be (fully) accepted by the respective Wikipedia communities, neither the Sardinian nor the Corsican one. Therefore adding a whole new and full Wikipedia version in Turritanu still makes sense. ... Jun Misugi (talk) 14:37, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jun Misugi No, that said, if you really have wasted some of your minutes on reading that RFL page, and especially the sc:Wikipedia:Tzilleri#Agiunta_de_"limba_nova_logudoresa_e_campidanesa"_in_Wiki, you can see a lot of concerns against your idea "that Sassarese is linguistically too far away from the "real" Sardinian (on the one hand), blah blah blah". That said, there are many dialects of Sardinian, but Sardinian is a language, not "a lot of languages". Remember the 3rd rule of LPP#Requisites for eligibility: The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:10, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, man! What is wrong here right now? You're citing me with "blah blah blah", seriously? I have never claimed that I had read all that. Maybe I will. But in fact, I know those kinds of discussions. I've already been part of those, several times. And I know the differences between Corsican, Sassarese, Gallurese and Sardinian. I was not saying that Sardinian would not be a language. But the other three, that's something else. Their grammar actually is too far from Logudorese, Campidanese and Nuorese which form the Sardinian (macro-)language. By the way, if you do some research, you will notice. And if I have time for it, I will read the above-mentioned stuff. Perhaps. The controversial part with Sardo-Corsican/Corso-Sardinian (= Sassarese, Castellanese, Gallurese) is, indeed, that geographical, linguistic, political and individual arguments are often contradictory. Nonetheless, no reason for not being nice to each other. Eh? Jun Misugi (talk) 23:24, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good night and good day. Jun Misugi (talk) 23:26, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Jun Misugi So? You really should read that Tzilleri discussion, that how a user is describing your "strong support" here: Creu ca chi at bogau custa allega in dìi de oi non conoscit sa limba, nd'est fendi una chistioni de printzìpiu poita est in s'interèssiu de is progetus cosa suus, ma no tenit nimmancu sa prus pitia bidea de sa diferèntzia (grammaticali e istòrica) intra sardu, sassaresu, gadduresu e aici sighendi. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:57, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What the heck is your problem??? Do you know anything of those languages? Isn't there enough war out there in the world? I didn't do anything bad. By the way the "Arguments against" section is right down here. You're writing in the wrong place and barking up the wrong tree. Jun Misugi (talk) 01:41, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1. My problem, shouldn't I try to understand that what's your problem? Why you really wanna split a fairly-developed sc:? 2. Actually yes, I know, but not very good, that's why I don't agree with your so-called "strong support" above. 3. The war? While we all know the Russo-Ukrainian conflict, as well as what are happening in Syria and many other Middle East countries, is there any wars within Sardinia? 4. No, you did a world's most bad thing: You're unfair splitting sc: 5. I'm not opposing either, why should I be aware of that section? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:48, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I recently looked again the sc:, and indeed, they don't have any pages that are written in Sassarese, so if your "strong support" is limited to this particular one RFL, and don't also apply to Campidanese, Logudorese, ... etc. that's fine. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:05, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Read the discussion above. Sassarese is not a dialect of Sardinian, see page. But it is part of the Sardinian macrolanguage in ISO 639, rather geographically (however, there are quite a lot of strange languages in the standard). --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 09:42, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments against[edit]

General discussion[edit]

  • Sassarese is one of the four natural languages spoken in Sardinia. Considering that on the Sardinian wikipedia we have people want to use the "unified Sardinian language" which is a created language that does not even exist as an ISO-code (the code used for the wikipedia is the collective code for the four natual languages) I don't see how come the Sassarese wikipedia should not get a chance. Of course, considering the amount of people speaking this language it will be a lot of work and it will take time until the project really can grow, but that should not be a reason to stop the project. The ISO 639-3 code is present. I will propose conditional approval for this language so that people can actively create the UI on betawiki and go ahead working on contents. GerardM 11:48, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • ML Wagner, Sardinian Language, Bern, Francke, 1951
  • A. Sanna, Introduzione agli studi di linguistica sarda, Cagliari, Regione Autonoma Sardegna, 1957
  • M. Cortellazzo, Profilo dei dialetti italiani, Pisa, Pacini-CNR, 1982 (n.20 "Sardegna")
  • E. Blasco Ferrer, Storia linguistica della Sardegna (Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für romanische Philologie ; vol. 202), Tübingen, Niemeyer, 1984
  • E. Blasco Ferrer, Il sardo (in Lexikon der Romanistischen Linguistik, cit. II/2 pp. 239-271)
  • E. Blasco Ferrer, Handbuch der italienischen Sprachwissenschaft, Berlin : E. Schmidt, 1994
  • Lenguas minoritarias en la romania. El sardo. Estado de la cuestión, special rewiev of "Revista de filología románica", 17 (2000)
  • I. Nichita, Complexul insulei. Fizionomia lexicului sard, Bucureşti, Lumina Lex, 1998

Thanks--Nick1915 - all you want 19:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is well known that there are four languages in Sardinia and that the Limba Sarda Comune was created for the authorities to be able to use just one way of writing so that it is "equal for all". The "Common Sardinian Language" that is being used on sc.wikipedia has no official ISO 639 code - it is a language that was built out of the actual ones. Of course the languages are similar, but they are different enough to get different ISO 639 codes. Therefore Sardinia has four languages: Campidanese, Gallurese, Logudorese, Sassarese. "Sardinian" as such is considered to be a Macrolanguage. The four Sardinian languages are also recognized by UNESCO as endangered languages: . Of course the unification of the four languages to simplify the task of authorities to write just one language instead of having to translate also in the other three does not help the four natual languages. Remember that with each dying language a whole wealth of culture dies. --Sabine 20:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Still any scientific paper and any argumentation that goes further than the pure expression of the thesis "Sardininan is a language" are missing, without considering which would then be Sardinian ([1] Logudorese, Nuorese, Aborense, Campidanese...?), "Sassarese is a variant of the Sardinian language" some more arguments and/or reasons: there is no linguistic analysis that does not recognise the italo-romance origin of the Sassarese language (otherwise this would "proof" that Corsican, Gallurese and Tuscan are variation of Sardinian!). "Sardinian is considered official language in Italy, Sassarese is a subgroup" is simply wrong. The Region of Sardinia distinguishes in its law (art. 2, paragraph 4, Regional Law from 15 Oct 1997 of the "Autonomous Region of Sardegna" about the "Promotion and valorization of the culture and language of Sardinia": "The same value attributed to the Sardinian culture and language is recongnised referring to the relative territory, to the culture and Catalan language of Alghero, the Tabarchino of the islands of Sulcis, the Sassarese and Gallurese dialect" [2] [3]) and in its presentations: here, the second link is given just as material and was not consulted, it is clearly stated that "Sardinian is not the only linguistic reality on the territory of the island". The list of documents (in Romanian??) is completely useless unless the author does not cite or analyze what these books should demonstrate. Just to take one example, the first author in "The problem of the geographical region to be attributed to Gallurese and Sassarese in "Neolatin Culture 3 (1943), pages 243-267;" wrote: "a dialect of the people which, following all evidences was formed step by step starting from the XVI century, after the period in which various deadly pestilences decimated the population of the city; most of the surviving people were of Pisan and Corsican origin, also quite a good number of Genovese people was part of the population. In this way the hybrid dialect that nowadays is being spoken in Sassari, Porto Torres and Sorso came into being. Its basis is a corrupt Tuscan with Genovese traces and quite some Sardinian terms"; the exact contrary of this thesis. This is the latest officual document about the LSC (Common Sardinian Language) of the Region of Sardinia: this imaginary "sassarese subgroup" doesn't exist, it is "strangely" not included and in the documents you find the repetition of the following (just to make sure if somebody was in need for it) "clarification is needed that a part from the Sardinian language (sa limba in Sardinian) there are other existing languages or ideoms in Sardinia which are the Catalan language of Alghero, Tarbachino, Sassarese and Gallurese".
In Italian Continuano a mancare qualsiasi trattazione e qualsiasi argomentazione che vada oltre la mera espressione della tesi; sardinian is a language senza dire quale sarebbe il sardo ([4] logudorese, nuorese, aborense, campidanese...?), sassarese is a variant of sardinian language senza nessuna ulteriore argomentazione: non esiste analisi linguistica che non riconosca l'origine italoromanza del sassarese (altrimenti anche corso, gallurese e toscano sarebbero varianti del sardo!). Sardinian is considered "official language" in Italy, sassarese is a subgroup è semplicemente falso. La Regione Sardegna distingue sia nelle legge (Art. 2 comma 4, L.R. 15-10-1997 della Regione Autonoma della Sardegna, sulla Promozione e valorizzazione della cultura e della lingua della Sardegna: "La medesima valenza attribuita alla cultura ed alla lingua sarda è riconosciuta con riferimento al territorio interessato, alla cultura ed alla lingua catalana di Alghero, al tabarchino delle isole del Sulcis, al dialetto sassarese e a quello gallurese" [5] [6]) e sia nelle presentazioni: qui, secondo link fornito come materiale e non consultato, c'è scritto molto chiaramente Il sardo non è l'unica realtà linguistica nel territorio isolano. La lista di testi (in rumeno??) è perfettamente inutile finché l'autore non si metta la pena di citare o analizzare cosa dovrebbero dimostrare questi libri. Tanto per fare un esempio, il primo autore in "La questione del posto da assegnare al gallurese e al sassarese, in «Cultura Neolatina» 3 (1943), pp. 243-267;" ha scritto a scanso di equivoci: "un dialetto plebeo che, secondo tutti gli indizi, si stava formando a poco a poco a partire dal sec. XVI, dopo che varie pestilenze mortalissime avevano decimato la popolazione della città; dei superstiti la massima parte era di origine pisana e còrsa, e non mancavano neanche i genovesi. Così nacque quel dialetto ibrido che oggi si parla a Sassari, a Porto Torres ed a Sorso, la cui base è un toscano corrotto con qualche traccia genovese, e con non pochi vocaboli sardi"; il contrario esatto di questa tesi. Questo è l'ultimo documento ufficiale sulla LSC della Regione Sardegna: questo immaginario "sottogruppo sassarese" non esiste, non è "stranamente" incluso ed è ripetuto (caso mai ce ne fosse stato bisogno) " bisogna chiarire che a parte sa limba propriamente detta esistono in Sardegna altre lingue o idiomi che sono il catalano di Alghero, il tabarchino, il sassarese e il gallurese" e "Il risultato è stato che esiste una grande distanza tra i dialetti appartenenti al sistema sardo e quelli del catalano, sassarese, gallurese e tabarchino.". --Felisopus Talk to me 10:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Verification observations[edit]

The localisation effort is great. What is missing is continued work on the project. With at least one more month of editing it would be considered for a project. Thanks, GerardM 06:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lingua e dialetto[edit]

Le distinzioni tra lingua e dialetto lasciamole ai linguisti puri. A mio parere ha diritto di cittadinanza qualunque 'parlare', variamente articolato e con una sua grammatica e una sua sintassi, che serva a trasmettere un'idea, un sentimento, un ricordo, un'informazione. Molto tempo fa lessi il parere di un linguista che, per primo, aveva studiato a fondo i dialetti della Lucania, trovando esempi che risalivano alla notte dei tempi. Diceva: Quando muore l'ultimo anziano che parla un dialetto, muore con lui anche il dialetto, perché non è possibile ricrearlo. Ne sono morti tanti in Italia, altri nati, altri sono al contrario sopravvissuti, variamente mescolandosi ad altri 'parlari', assumendo o cedendo, trasformando vocaboli, modi di dire, proverbi, accenti. Anzi, proprio l'accento - che non è possibile perdere completamente, quando si parla una lingua diversa da quella materna - resta l'elemento chiave che ci lega a chissà quale antichissima tribù italica, di cui forse non conosciamo il nome. L'insorgere e il progredire del commercio - ma anche le guerre e le conquiste territoriali - hanno dato origine a forme linguistiche nuove che si adattavano all'uso corrente.

Ci sono poi le lingue artificiali, ma mi interessano poco, perché mancano di una origine spontanea e popolare. Wikipedia è una straordinaria opportunità che va colta al volo. Ha tuttavia regole precise per l'impostazione e la redazione dei vari articoli che devono avere, tutti, sei caratteristiche fondamentali:

  • 1. Titolo semplice e chiaro. 2. Testo semplice, eslicativo e corretto. 3. Link in entrata da voci della stessa wiki. 4. Link in uscita verso voci della stessa wiki. 5. Corretto collegamento a wikidata. 6. Categoria.

Altri elementi, non fodamentali ma aggiuntivi, sono: note, template, immagini, citazioni, bibliografia, collegamenti esterni, ecc. Ma senza le sei caratteristiche fondamentali, non si va da nessuna parte... Quindi, amio parere, la distinzione, in questa sede, non è tra lingua e dialetto; ma tra chi sa utilizzare e chi non sa utilizzare correttamente il mezzo tecnico che si chiama Wikipedia. S'impara poco per volta, col tempo e con la pazienza.--Fausta Samaritani (talk) 15:54, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Localisation update[edit]