IRC office hours/Office hours 2014-06-10
Chat on ECT IRC Hours
10 June 2014
1600 - 1700 UTC
16:01:44 <qgil> #startmeeting Engineering Community office hour - June 2014
16:01:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> Meeting started Tue Jun 10 16:01:44 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is qgil. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
16:01:44 <wm-labs-meetbot> The meeting name has been set to 'engineering_community_office_hour___june_2014'
16:01:48 <qgil> thre
16:01:55 <qgil> Welcome to the Engineering Community Team monthly meeting
16:02:02 <qgil> In fact we meet every Tuesday, but once a month we do it here on IRC.
16:02:09 <qgil> The team: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team
16:02:17 <qgil> andre__, guillom, sumanah and myself are here to discuss and answer questions in our best capacity.
16:02:25 <qgil> The open agenda can be found at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/Meetings/2014-06-10
16:02:32 <qgil> So far the only point is
16:02:40 <qgil> Engineering Community team 2014-15 goals after our last quarterly review
16:02:47 <qgil> If you have more topics, just propose them.
16:02:54 <qgil> Who is here attending the meeting? Please rise your hand.
16:03:03 <rfarrand> o/
16:03:08 <guillom> _o/
16:03:10 <andre__> |o
16:03:27 <sumanah> \o
16:03:45 <qgil> o/
16:03:54 <qgil> Ok, at least we have team quorum :)
16:04:12 <andre__> hehe
16:04:20 <Amir1> o|
16:04:28 <Amir1> :D
16:05:25 <qgil> Today we are using MeetBot, a tool that adds a bit of averhead but produces a lot more usable meeting notes. More at https://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
16:05:33 <qgil> Ok, let's start with the main point today:
16:05:40 <qgil> #topic Engineering Community team 2014-15 goals after our last quarterly review
16:05:55 <qgil> #info Last Friday the Engineering Community team had its quarterly review.
16:06:04 <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Engineering_Community_Team/June_2014_Quarterly_Review
16:06:12 <qgil> #info The slides are comprehensive enough; they capture interesting metrics and our masterplan for 2014-15:
16:06:20 <qgil> #info * A sane developer experience
16:06:26 <qgil> #info * One deeloper platform
16:06:33 <qgil> #info * Engage established communities
16:06:41 <qgil> These are slides 12-14, and then there is also a summary of our next steps in July-September
16:07:28 <qgil> Just yesterday, we expanded these goals a bit at
16:07:33 <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2014-15_Goals#Engineering_Community
16:08:03 <qgil> Alright, this is a bunch of quite new information. Any questions? Any opinions? Time to read?
16:09:44 <andre__> roughly speaking, plans look pretty good to me, as far as I can judge. I'd only have two comments later about plans that are in my "court"/responsibility/etc...
16:10:08 <qgil> Ok, before we get there, Any questions about the three main lines of work (developer experience, one tool, communities)?
16:10:34 * guillom thinks the plan and focuses make sense.
16:10:37 <qgil> I mean, do you agree these are the main lines, are we missing something important that should be prioritized over these...?
16:11:31 <qgil> In fact, at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2014-15_Goals#Engineering_Community I added a fourth: "Better quality in outreach programs"
16:11:54 <qgil> but only to reflect that we will keep doing what we are doing at GSoC, OPW, Google Code-in, etc, trying to do better at each iteration.
16:12:19 <qgil> This was a questions that Erik raised at the quarterly review, and I thought that others could be confused as well thinking that we would be dropping our goals there.
16:12:45 <andre__> yeah, it's something that "happens anyway", but worth to mention as it's another thing we investigate time on
16:13:06 <guillom> agreed
16:13:54 <qgil> Ok, if anybody has general questions about these goals, just go ahead. Let's focus now in the first one.
16:14:05 <qgil> #topic A sane developer experience
16:14:35 <qgil> sumanah, this is your main goal. Comments or questions, thoughts you want to share?
16:14:58 <sumanah> So, I think https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Data_%26_Developer_Hub answers a lot of potential questions
16:15:22 <sumanah> I will say I'm excited about finishing up my security, architecture, and performance guideline work and getting started on the API stuff in July
16:16:27 <qgil> sumanah, do you agree with the goals proposed for the next quarter at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2014-15_Goals#Engineering_Community ?
16:16:53 <qgil> improvements welcome, I just tried to have a starting point yesterday
16:17:38 <sumanah> :) "Contribution process defined" - qgil I presume this means the contribution process for developers who want to get their projects mentioned on that page
16:17:48 <qgil> Rest of participants of this meeting are also encouraged to comment. This project will have a big impact in mediawiki.org and surroundings
16:18:35 <qgil> sumanah, as of today it is unclear whether this is just a wiki or there will be some kind of moderation / restriction / editorial criteria on what to add, how to improve, etc.
16:18:53 <sumanah> oh I see what you mean. OK. Sure that's fine.
16:19:20 <guillom> sumanah: FYI, I told Quim yesterday that if I have bandwidth in July, I'm happy to give a hand on the Data & Developer hub project, particularly around information architecture
16:19:28 <sumanah> guillom: makes sense! thanks.
16:19:34 <guillom> sure :)
16:19:50 <sumanah> In q3 I see "Sane developer experience � UX & doc debt in mediawiki.org" which makes sense to me as well
16:20:02 <qgil> Also note that we are calling it "Developer Hub", which , as of today, is a debatable proposal with clear implications over https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Developer_hub
16:21:48 <qgil> In any case, it seems that we have the very basic agreement in place. sumanah you own this area, so you will lead any change in these goals.
16:21:52 <sumanah> ok
16:21:56 <qgil> Let's move on.
16:22:15 <qgil> #topic One development platform
16:22:26 <qgil> andre__, this is your main goal. Thoughts?
16:22:45 <andre__> Alright
16:22:56 <andre__> regarding the items on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2014-15_Goals#Engineering_Community related to this:
16:23:12 <andre__> Very clear yes to the first two sub-items (Mukunda is currently working on SUL; Trusted User Tool is also realistic until September), and to Mingle/Trello for Oct-Dec
16:23:32 <andre__> Third sub-item "Task management enabled for a few teams invited" is also likely, but depends on how safe our data is on an alpha production instance plus migration of Bugzilla IDs/numbers to be the same numbers in Phabricator
16:23:54 <andre__> Fourth one "Bugzilla content migrated": Currently I don't see this yet as a realistic goal for Sep 2014, as we still have too many question marks to judge the complexity of that task, plus nobody yet investigating the data migration (in parallel to current ongoing work).
16:23:58 <andre__> Current situation can always change though :)
16:24:27 <qgil> andre__, well, yes. It's "ambitious". :)
16:24:38 <andre__> I agree with that :)
16:25:07 <qgil> Then again, both Mukunda and Chase are talking about "weeks" referring to their tasks, and both seemed to be more comfortable to work with a deadline
16:25:08 <andre__> Question is if outsiders reading it also see the ambition between the lines, or expect this to definitely happen :P
16:25:12 <qgil> So now we have a deadline.
16:25:17 <andre__> heh, that's true.
16:25:29 <qgil> But it was mentioned at the quarterly review that it is ambitious.
16:25:46 <andre__> If that's a shared understanding, I'm fine with it.
16:25:47 <qgil> If we don't match it, it's fine, as long as we have a good reasoning for it.
16:26:30 <guillom> BTW the announcement about the plan went out today :) https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/06/10/on-our-way-to-phabricator/
16:26:38 <andre__> guillom, uh yay, thanks!
16:26:38 <qgil> Dates are useful, but not somethign to be obsessed about in this specific project.
16:26:49 <qgil> #link https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/06/10/on-our-way-to-phabricator/
16:27:17 <andre__> qgil: if that is clear to everybody and if people do not get extremely stressed because of interpreting that as deadlines, alright
16:27:22 <qgil> guillom, your post made me break my personal strike in social media -- congratulations :)
16:27:41 <guillom> qgil: Congratulations, or I'm sorry? :)
16:27:45 <andre__> :D
16:27:50 <qgil> :)
16:27:56 <qgil> ok, anything else?
16:28:05 <andre__> not for this topic
16:29:07 <qgil> Alright, let's move on to the next, then.
16:29:19 <qgil> #topic Engage established communities
16:30:11 <qgil> This is my main goal. It is less clear than yours when it comes to "definition of done" and measurement, but still it is possible to see the progress -- or lack of it
16:30:24 <James_F> Please do not ever remove the bit of the /topic that says "DO NOT REMOVE THIS NOTE".
16:30:34 <qgil> Do you have any questions about the reasoning, goals, strategy...?
16:30:58 <qgil> James_F, this is MeetBot...
16:31:13 <sumanah> it's possible to make MeetBot include that bit
16:31:33 <sumanah> when you set the name of your meeting, include that bit of the topic
16:31:45 <qgil> ok, lesson learned
16:32:11 <qgil> about the current topic, questions, other thoughts?
16:34:15 <guillom> Nothing from me.
16:34:21 <qgil> Alright, I just want to stress the fact that I'm trying to set common goals with these teams: Global Education Program, Grantmaking, Zero.
16:34:41 <qgil> Officially or unofficially, as stated at the end of the quarterly goals
16:35:31 <qgil> And also that the results of our engagement with other communities should have visible impact in our events, our outreach programs and, ultimately, our code repositories.
16:36:12 <qgil> #topic Better quality in outreach programs
16:36:37 <qgil> The ownership of this goals is shared, and we will see how exactly.
16:37:02 <qgil> But no big surprises are expected here, we "just"need to do this better every time.
16:37:59 <qgil> sumanah, James_F but this will mess the metting notes, isn't it? It is not that bad to survive 1h without that notice and to have nicer meeting notes, isn't it?
16:38:17 <sumanah> qgil: we gotta have that notice.
16:38:36 <sumanah> I think it's a legal compliance issue.
16:38:57 <andre__> Apart from the common process for GCI being mentioned already, do we want a separate "Successful Google Code-In" item too, seeing GSoC/OPW items?
16:39:00 <qgil> sumanah, James_F ok, let's discuss when we see the resulting meeting notes
16:39:22 <Coren> qgil: Hey, btw, what developped from that announcement in Zürich about a hackathon in India?
16:39:46 <qgil> hi Coren , we can talk about that in a bit.
16:39:56 * Coren hides as he notices he's on -office not -staff. *blush*
16:40:21 <qgil> Coren, your question is a good one! Just let us finish the current point. :)
16:41:35 <qgil> andre__, I think we can leave Google Code-in goal(s) as it is now, and decide later.
16:41:44 <qgil> Although, well, either way could be right.
16:42:03 <qgil> Since GCI is mentioned once, I didn't see the need to mention it again with an evident goal.
16:42:09 <andre__> understand
16:42:16 <qgil> We have months to fine tune those quarters.
16:42:44 <qgil> The important part is that we really need to get that single process for GCI students and any newcomers
16:43:19 <qgil> Which implies to develop the Bug of the Week idea, etc.
16:43:46 <andre__> yeah, I need to pick that up again. on the list...
16:44:18 <qgil> Any comments about this topic? We still have Wikimania highlighted in the next quarter
16:45:39 <qgil> Let me see if I can keep legal compliance and nice meeting notes...
16:46:39 <qgil> #topic Wikimania Hackathon
16:47:30 <qgil> Alright, this is a goal shared between rfarrand and me.
16:48:08 <qgil> In brief, rfarrand takes care of the infrastructure, on site everything, and coordination with the Wikimania organizers
16:48:44 <qgil> I will try to handle the content and schedule in the same unconference fashion as we had at the Zürich Hackathon
16:49:14 <qgil> rfarrand, do you want to comment?
16:49:42 <rfarrand> everything is on track for a great hackathon & the unconference method worked really well in Zurich :)
16:50:04 <rfarrand> I visited London a few weeks ago to meet with the WMUK team
16:50:17 <rfarrand> I have faith in those guys :)
16:50:36 <qgil> The only big(ger) question mark is the amount and type of newcomers that Wikimania organizers will achieve to get. And what we will do with them.
16:50:56 <sumanah> I will quibble a little bit and point out that it's like partly unconference, partly scheduled
16:51:28 <sumanah> but yes, Zurich worked well and a similar thing will work in London I predict
16:51:30 <rfarrand> sumanah: yes, you are right. especially for the beginner tracks
16:51:52 <sumanah> for other people reading this who are thinking about how to structure an event:
16:51:52 <sumanah> If you are planning an event for people who already know and trust each other, and are good at public speaking and collaboration, and are experts in the field, then an unconference might work! But for newbies who are learning not just a new skill, but a new way of thinking? Give them a more familiar structure.
16:52:04 <sumanah> This is tough for free culture ideologues, because one wants to "be the change you wish to see in the world", and do everything collaboratively, empoweredly, etc. But sometimes the ivy needs a trellis to grow on.
16:52:26 <qgil> sumanah, well yes, unconference in the sense that we have a grid mostly empty at the beginning of the event.
16:52:36 <sumanah> anyway this is a derail.
16:52:50 <qgil> sumanah, yes, probably the solution is to have one track and some DIY activities for newcomers, and then the open grid for the rest.
16:53:12 <qgil> sumanah, a useful derail in any case. :)
16:53:45 <qgil> Ok, if there is nothing else, let's still have a short Q&A to answer to Coren and other questions
16:53:56 <qgil> (there we go again)
16:54:44 <qgil> #topic Q&A
16:55:39 <qgil> #info Coren asks about the results of the discussions about a Wikimedia Hackathon in India at the past Wikimedia Hackathon
16:55:59 <qgil> The short answer: there is nothing going on as far as I'm aware.
16:56:05 <qgil> A bit longer:
16:56:21 <qgil> #link https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Hackathons
16:56:40 <qgil> We have a process for anybody to propose a Wikimedia hackathon anywhere.
16:56:57 <qgil> I have pinged mediawiki-india mailing list a couple of times
16:57:09 <qgil> There is no proposal on our table, sadly.
16:57:43 <qgil> I won't insist more... But I will chase any Indian tech contributors I find at Wikimania, chapter and CIS people, etc.
16:58:13 <qgil> Other questions for these last 2 mins?
16:59:50 <qgil> Alright, thank you everybody!
16:59:52 <qgil> #endmeeting