Talk:Tech/News/init

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Reducing need for translating constant texts[edit]

When translating the weekly newsletters, the first thing I do is copying over things that don’t change from one week to the other: the lead texts (one distributed and one not distributed), the subsection headers (Recent changes, Problems etc.), and so on. Moving as much of this as possible to templates would greatly reduce the need for copy-pasting and we could work on translating things that have not been translated a hundred times. Creating a template (e.g. {{Tech news header}}) for the not distributed header is pretty easy, but I think even distributed parts could be moved to a template (probably Module:Tech news needs to be tweaked a bit). Thoughts? —Tacsipacsi (talk) 16:27, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

In theory, when translation memory works, you don't need to copy-paste things, but just click on the right translation that has been saved in the translation memory. This reduces the workload, in theory.
Concerning templates, do you know a way to deliver a multi-lingual newsletter with templates? Do you have the skills to change the module we use so that we can add and remove sections when need? This would be a great help.
Let's discuss about this on the main talk page Talk:Tech/News, where some gadgets improvements have also been suggested!
Thank you, Trizek (WMF) (talk) 10:05, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
Tacsipacsi: I feel your pain, as I do the same thing for Swedish most weeks as part of my workflow to make sure everything is properly marked for translation and to hopefully catch most mistakes before I ask people to spend their time translating. I started working on moving the non-distributed lead text to a template at least, but then I realised we're making the barrier of entry for new languages and new translators very high: in order to get the newsletter properly translated on Meta, you'd have to pay attention to something telling you to go to another page and translate that template, in addition to the page you're currently translating. This would be even worse when it comes to the recurrent part of the actual newsletter that's distributed. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 18:20, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
I.e. either way, making it easier for some translators will make it more difficult for other translators. Slightly easier every week for the people who are the backbone of Tech News distribution, or markedly more difficult the first time for those we hope will join them. Or the other way around. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 18:22, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
@Johan (WMF): How many new language translators are there per week on average? I don’t expect many, so the great barrier still means relatively small net loss. In addition, that barrier is already there with numerous templates already used: {{Tech header}}, {{Deadline}}, {{Tech news nav}} and {{Draft}} (I hope I haven’t missed any). One more template is not a big difference, but if you care much about new translators, you can create an aggregate group from these and add a translate link to the newly created template. Still a different page, but just one click away, and if the link’s language stresses that these are this additional page contains texts that aren’t delivered anyway, translators not caring about how the Meta page looks like actually need to translate less. (Or the current week’s issue can be added to that aggregate group to make translation a one-page process, but that means two more actions—removing last week’s issue, adding current week’s one—every week for the translation admin. I don’t think it’s worth it.) This would mean that senior translators’ life becomes a bit easier, while junior ones’ becomes much easier, win-win situation. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 23:06, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Point taken regarding the existing template on the page on Meta, Tacsipacsi. I'm always very concerned about the barrier of entry, and afraid that we're gradually making Tech News more difficult translate for newcomers, but I agree that at least for the non-distributed part that fear got the better of me and my objection probably didn't make much sense. I've created {{Tech News lede}} so {{Tech header|{{TNT|Template:Tech News lede}}}} should work as a solution for that. /Johan (WMF) (talk) 22:39, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@Johan (WMF): I would rather include the {{Tech header}} call in the lead template and include it simply as {{Tech News lede}} on the issue pages, in order to keep them short—although that’s just a nuance. And what about creating an aggregate group? (I can create that as soon as I get the translation admin rights, if it’s just too complicated for you.) —Tacsipacsi (talk) 12:28, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Tacsipacsi, I really have no opinion there. Feel free to re-arrange the templates if you think your solution is better.
I've not dealt with aggregate groups before and haven't had time to look at it yet, sorry for not commenting on that. Trying to dig myself out of three weeks of accumulated tasks from when I was out of office for a while. (: /Johan (WMF) (talk) 13:05, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
@Johan (WMF): Okay, I did what I proposed—almost. When assembling the aggregate group, I noticed Template:Tech news/header, which is almost the same as what I wanted to achieve with Template:Tech News lede, except for that it already has many translations, although it used an older text version. I went on using that; Template:Tech News lede can be deleted. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 00:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I have worked on this issue early summer too, drafting a generic template which could be used for each issue. I wonder if such template would be easily expandable to deliver it with MassMessage. I would gladly welcome your feedback about it, Tacsipacsi, if you have time. --Pols12 (talk) 20:08, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

@Pols12: As far as I know, this solution doesn’t break the way the newsletter is delivered, although I don’t know how does it work with the plans to ease the distribution. However, as there may be arbitrarily many items in each section, I don’t think this one big template thing would work; I’d rather use something like {{TCT}}. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 00:13, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for your review. Face-smile.svg Having multiple items is not a problem, we could add 50 parameters in each section, even an unlimited number of parameter with a Lua module. With the new process (thanks for the link!), I am pretty sure MassMessage will look at a section tag and will not expand templates (as currently). So if we use my template, I think it should be substituted on each issue in order MassMessage can send them. This is not an ideal solution because it a supplementary step for Tech New sender which could be avoided. --Pols12 (talk) 16:57, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
The goal of that task is to have zero supplementary steps, so if any steps remain, the task is not resolved. Speaking of section tag, now I realized that the current hack module uses them, too. Adding a bunch of parameters or a Lua module may make your solution possible (apart from the missing section tags), but I still think it would make the code more complicated. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 10:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Reducing the need to translate permanent texts (further improvements)[edit]

@Johan (WMF) and Tacsipacsi: Hello, I have a proposal to transfer the header and ending of the weekly TN to templates that will automatically adjust the translation for a given language. I would leave repeated subtitles for translation every week because they are not always the same. I think that such a solution will not be a problem for new translators or languages, and even make it easier because even someone who does not know the language can move the translation to this template, what's more, it's enough that such a translation has been done once in the history of the magazine since its creation. I can see for myself that TN is not always translated in my language, and so it would be at least a headline and ending.--Krzysiek 123456789 (talk) 20:41, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

As Johan (WMF) explained above, we should avoid splitting translation work between several pages. Using an aggregate group, as proposed by Tacsipacsi, seems reasonable to me. --Pols12 (talk) 08:15, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
@Pols12: is there somewhere described how such a group works because I cannot find. --Krzysiek 123456789 (talk) 10:31, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
I haven’t found a page dedicated to aggregate groups, but you can find an understandable definition in Translate extension glossary. This just let you translate several pages from the same Translate page. --Pols12 (talk) 16:08, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
@Krzysiek 123456789 and Pols12: By the way, I’ve already created the aggregate group back in August; you can translate by clicking the Translate frequently used templates link on this page (or any Tech News issue beginning with Tech/News/2020/34). The group can be viewed (and managed by translation admins) on Special:AggregateGroups. Please note that the current aggregate group description says that these messages are not used in the distributed Tech News issue, which will need to be changed if they will. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 16:59, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
@Pols12 and Tacsipacsi: IMO your proposal is good, but from what I understand is that in order to add these texts to the aggregated group they still need to be moved to templates. Am I wrong? Krzysiek 123456789 (talk) 23:55, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
@Krzysiek 123456789: Yes, the texts are still moved to a template. This way the newsletter’s text needs to be translated at two different places, which is more than the current one, but less than what would happen without the aggregate group. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 00:22, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
@Johan (WMF), Pols12, and Tacsipacsi:I think you can add this to the group that exists for things not sent out. Besides, when it will be in a separate place, it will not hurt as I wrote at the beginning of this thread. --Krzysiek 123456789 (talk) 11:07, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "when it will be in a separate place, it will not hurt", Krzysiek 123456789. Could you explain, please? /Johan (WMF) (talk) 05:52, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
@Johan (WMF): "when it will be in a separate place, it will not hurt as I wrote at the beginning of this thread." I meant all the things mentioned in the post at the beginning.--Krzysiek 123456789 (talk) 11:10, 14 October 2020 (UTC)