Talk:Wikilegal/Authorship and Copyright Ownership

The Example of the Third Party Photographer

Where is a Third here? Who is second? --Itu (talk) 21:47, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Probably not a good choice of words. Common request to bystander: "Will you take a photo of us?" So in that case the bystander is the "third person." But, generically, these are being discussed on Commons as "bystander photos" or "bystander selfies." They are a very common kind of photo. --Abd (talk) 18:23, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

It seems the bystander photos aren't as problematic as they have been treated on Commons. Often it has been thought that the photographer is the author, and as no contact information was retained, the photo would be an orphan work. According to the discussion on this page, the subject posing will usually have control of most aspects of the photo (pose, lighting, rough timing, rough angle, choice of camera, film and camera settings), and will thus be at least co-author. If a co-author has right to licence the photo without consulting co-authors, they can upload the photo on Commons with a non-exclusive free licence. They cannot ask for payment for use of the photo, as the revenue would need to be shared (unless they put part of the revenue in a separate fond/purse, to be given to the photographer at a later time never to come). Are there any remaining problems for Commons? Does the law differ significantly in other countries? –LPfi (talk) 08:37, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Disagreement

I disagree strongly with the thrust of this guidance. I am a docent at the Boston Museum of Science and frequently get asked "Will you take a photo of us?" When that happens, I say, "Sure, that's part of my job here" and am handed a cell phone or, much less often, a point and shoot camera. The person or group positions itself and I choose the distance, zoom, framing, and time to shoot. I often rearrange them a little to tighten the group. I have never been given any instructions about any of these choices. Therefore, since I am in the same circumstance as one of the group would have been if they had taken the photo, I don't see why I am not the copyright holder.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 15:45, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

Jameslwoodward, your situation is different from the typical bystander selfie. First of all, as you say: Sure, that's part of my job here. That already makes you not a random bystander.
I have never been given any instructions about any of these choices. When you say it's part of your job, people will accept your authority and respect your experience. So they are less likely to give additional instructions. When a bystander selfie is requested typically little effort is expected. Just get the subject in the frame and press the button. No additional instructions are needed in that case.
I choose the distance, There will be an expectation within a fairly limited range.
zoom, Getting copyright from zoom decisions will be difficult. A higher resolution version of the same work has the same copyright, so you could technically just zoom out and let the subjects crop afterwards. The only reason to zoom in is technical, a limited number of megapixels.
framing, and time to shoot. Okay, sure. But there will be expectations for framing, so you freedom there is limited. As for the time to shoot, subjects typically pose/freeze for these shots, so the influence of the timing will be limited.
I often rearrange them a little to tighten the group. That's fair, but questionable if that'll result in valid copyright claim.
I don't see why I am not the copyright holder. You didn't pick the location. You didn't pick the background. You didn't pick the time of day. You didn't pick the equipment. You didn't select the subjects. You didn't pick their clothes. You didn't pick their pose. You make some decisions though, so perhaps there would be joint authorship. Since you present yourself as a photographer, possibly even full authorship - but your case is not the case of the typical bystander selfie. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 11:59, 15 March 2026 (UTC)

The above does not match my experience. Even when asked to take a photograph somewhere other than the Museum, I am rarely (perhaps never?) given any instructions. And, the comments above completely ignore the most important aspect of taking photographs of people -- pushing the button at exactly the right moment.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 14:20, 16 March 2026 (UTC)