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Universal Code of Conduct/Coordinating Committee/Cases/Arabic Wikipedia works against Eastern Arabic numerals

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حبيشانtalk 05:24, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

جودت (talk) 13:10, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Filer (no diff required)
فيصل (talk • contribs • xwiki-contribs • xwiki-date (alt) • CA • ST) w:ar:Special:diff/70554317
Ibrahim.ID (talk • contribs • xwiki-contribs • xwiki-date (alt) • CA • ST) Self-nominated (no diff required)

U4C member alert: @U4C: User:Ajraddatz User:Barkeep49 User:BRPever User:Civvì User:Dbeef User:Ghilt User:Ibrahim.ID User:Jrogers (WMF) User:Luke081515 حبيشانtalk 05:24, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

حبيشان

Description of the problem - (حبيشان)

Preface

Arabic language mainly uses Eastern Arabic Numbers (٠١٢٣٤٥٦٧٨٩) (also called Hindu-Arabic) which also used by Mediawiki software as local numbers for Arabic Language. After colonial period in Arabic countries some Arabic countries have adopted the form of numbers used in Europe, which are known there as Arabic numerals (0123456789), officially. Reactions to this change differed, as some considered it a return to the original, where these numbers are of Arab origin, others considered it an attempt to obliterate the Arab identity with a colonial identity. For this reason Some Islamic fatwas (where most Arabs are Muslims) prohibiting the use of the European form of Arabic numerals instead of Eastern Arabic numerals [see 1 ].

The position of the Arabic Wikipedia on this issue

The Arabic Wikipedia for some reason disabled local Arabic numerals (which are Eastern Arabic numbers) so the numbers shown as Arabic numerals (0123456789) (also called Western Arabic numbers). There were a small gadget allow users to show Eastern Arabic Numbers in Arabic Wikipedia (it not force use Eastern Arabic Numbers only shows a button in user menu to allow change numbers to Eastern Arabic Numbers), this gadget is not default gadget, so unregistered users can not use it. We have asked more than once to make the gadget default, but every time the administrators of the Arabic Wikipedia stand against the proposal.

What Arabic Wikipedia violated
  1. Arabic Wikipedia is NOT neutral in the numbers issue. It is stopped against Eastern Arabic Numbers, and fights part of Arab culture and civilization.
  2. Arabic Wikipedia position opposes the objectives of the U4C, which said: "We believe in empowering as many people as possible to actively participate in Wikimedia projects and spaces", "everyone can share in the sum of all human knowledge" and "We believe our communities of contributors should be as diverse, inclusive, and accessible as possible"
    Why are some unregistered users forced to read Arabic text with numbers they believe that is alien to their culture or forbidden to use in their religion? Why are some unregistered users has difficulties in reading the numbers in Arabic text While They can read Arabic.
  3. Arabic Wikipedia does NOT "respect the preferences" of some unregistered users whom prefer to use Eastern Arabic Numbers and prefer not to register in Arabic Wikipedia.

Previous attempts at a solution - (حبيشان)

Some user opened proposal to activate the refered gadget for all (make default) two times:

  1. on July 6, 2024, All participants in the discussion agreed to defaulted activate of the gadget (please see Other feedback section), so I closed the proposal as consensus in on July 18, 2024. After that, some users objected with incorrect objections. I was unjustifiably attacked because of that closure.
  2. on February 23, 2025, the proposal closed by User:Ibrahim.ID at 2 minutes after he commented the proposal, He justified the rejection with incorrect explanations. (please see Other feedback section)

We are ready to re-discuss all those justifications when needed.

Suggested solutions - (حبيشان)

Defaulted activate of the gadget Gadget Numeral converter toggle will allow all users (including unregistered) to use Eastern Arabic numbers when they prefer. this make Arabic Wikipedia "neutral", "empowering as many people as possible" and "accessible as possible".

جودت

Description of the problem - (جودت)

Hello everyone, the behavior of the administrators is no longer acceptable and I think that intervention should be made and some of the administrators there should be expelled. Their behavior sometimes causes Wikipedia users to stop contributing and I honestly stand with those users and I think I will be one of them if these atrocities are not stopped. What is this? There are administrators who violate official policies and impose their opinions on the community there. I thank my friend حبيشان for opening this issue and I support everything he wrote and his proposal regarding the numbers.

Hindu-arabic numerals are still officially used in many Arab countries in schools, streets, and many other places. A number swap button would resolve the controversy. If you look at the previous discussion that was opened on this topic, you'll find that a number of users want this addition. The ones who are hindering the implementation of the proposal are the administrators. These users are forcing the community not to activate this addition! The administrators of the Arabic Wikipedia do not represent the reality in Arab countries. Hindu-arabic numerals are still used, and the proposal to add a number swap button would completely solve the problem.

One of the justifications offered by Arabic Wikipedia administrators is that Arabic numerals have become familiar to many Arabs. This is incorrect, however. Printing presses in Egypt and several other Arab countries, including Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Kuwait, and others, still use them. I have sources that confirm what I'm saying, such as one from the Al Jazeera website.

فيصل

Previous attempts at a solution - فيصل

Suggested solutions - فيصل

Ibrahim.ID

Previous attempts at a solution - Ibrahim.ID

Suggested solutions - Ibrahim.ID

The case in brief (as facts):

  • In the Arab world, we use (Eastern Arabic numerals- aka: Hindu–Arabic numeral system) and (Arabic numerals - aka: Western Arabic numerals), and there is no rule regarding this. Both are numerals developed by ancient Arabs, and the issue is a matter of personal preference.
  • In Arabic Wikipedia, we use (Arabic numerals) by default based on:
  1. the guideline (ويكيبيديا:دليل الأسلوب) = (WP:Manual of Style) which say:

الأرقام

تستعمل الأرقام العربية المغربية وجوباً (0123456789) في جميع النطاقات ذات المحتوى الموسوعي (مقالة، بوابة، تصنيف، قالب.. ). في حال الكتابة بالأرقام العربية المشرقية أو الهندية (۰۱۲۳٤٥٦٧۸۹)؛ يمر بوت على المقالة ويغير الأرقام.

Numbers

Western Arabic numerals (0123456789) are mandatory in all Namespacewith encyclopedic content (article, portal, category, template, etc.). If you write in Eastern Arabic or Indian numerals (۰۱۲۳٤٥٦٧۸۹), a bot will review the article and change the numbers.

  1. the Local community votes (here in Oct 2015) to adopt "Arabic numerals" with full support (21 votes vs 0).
  2. The issue has also been discussed several times in the Village pump [1] - [2] - [3] , and each time the community favors Arabic numerals.
  • years ago, In the Arabic Wikipedia we created a gadget to change the appearance of numerals (so that users can switch between numeral formats as they wish), and any user can activate it from the preferences.
  • In July 2024, One user suggested making the gadget as default (enabled by default for all users), and (user:حبيشان) accepted the suggestion after a short period (12 days) with only two users participating, without sufficient number of users to participate in the suggestion. and that sparked a great deal of discontent among many users, who rejected this conclusion, and it was withdrawn.
  • In February 2025, a user suggested making the gadget as default for all "again", As the discussion show, the suggestion was not widely accepted by users (only 2 or 3) and was rejected by 2 more users two months later. This simply didn't have enough consensus and was therefore rejected.--Ibrahim.ID (talk) 13:41, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

About my action:

  • I never participated in this discussion during two months, or even the discussion before it.
  • The discussion clearly had no consensus for two months, as I mentioned in the conclusion, nothing more.

in the same time: I wanted to correct some misinformation in the discussion (as a normal comment), which concerned:

  1. Someone assumed that my country (Egypt) uses Eastern Arabic numerals as part of his argument. This is not true. We use both, with a strong preference for Arabic numerals. Egypt is the largest country in the region, representing 25% of the Arab world's population.
  2. I mentioned that default gadget should be limited, according to the recommendations of technical experts at the Wikimedia, because they put a strain on servers and also increase loading times. Any technical expert can confirm this, and therefore the issue should be discussed extensively, not just a simple suggestion.
  3. I mentioned an illogical justification used in the discussion (we can make them the default, and then those who don't want them can cancel them). Why? why we make it default then request the users deactivate it later if they don't want that from the start?

I make preferred posted this comment as a separate comment before the conclusion. a very normal comment without preferring any side and has no impact on the discussion or its neutrality. However, We do not have a policy or guidelines that prevent an admin who comments on a discussion from closing it, so my action is 100% legal. --Ibrahim.ID (talk) 13:41, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My comment

  • I think the case is clear. The issue of numbers is a matter of personal preference. There is already a gadget that gives any user the option to change the appearance of the numbers as they like.
  • I closed the discussion as (The conclusion: No Consensus only) which that is clear in discussion after two months.
  • Making this gadget as default is an important decision and should have received significant user support, but so far, it hasn't, and this is evident in all the discussions that have been raised.
  • What I see now, frankly, is an attempt to impose a point of view and bypass local community decisions, where some points were selected and considered violations (even though local policies do not consider them violations), then an attempt to politicize the issue (a conflict with admins). The request that the user made clearly shows bad faith that he wants U4C to impose the gadget (as a default) and he did not even ask for a vote or discussion from local community, but rather wants to use U4C's power.--Ibrahim.ID (talk) 14:47, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Side points

  • the (user:حبيشان) create the case here directly without create a local discussion about "my conclusion" that he refuse or about the previous one.
  • the (user:حبيشان) has a conflict of interest with this case, as he was the one who hastily closed the first discussion and has a clear desire to implement the proposal.
  • It's very strange to use arguments such as Arab culture - fatwa(!) - speaking on behalf of others, These are certainly not objective justifications used as arguments in this discussion, specially when he use (where most Arabs are Muslims) this statement reflects clear discrimination and exclusion of religious minorities in the Arab world and the imposition of the majority opinion on everyone.
  • This gadget which claims to be important, according to the official statistics. The gadget has low position in usage! (enabled by 1٬824 users - 51 active users)
  • The user is trying to promote the issue as if administrators are the objectors, and that isn't true, while it's clear that the community itself is not accepting the proposal.--Ibrahim.ID (talk) 14:47, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Did you know, that many users are unaware of this add-on? So this is an illogical excuse. جودت (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Other feedback

For people who are not parties, the following rules apply:

  • Comments/replies may not be longer the 500 words and may not include more than 25 diffs/links. The U4C may, if asked, grant additional words or diffs/links.
  • Comments/replies are permitted only in your own section
  • Contributions that do not help clarify the matter can be removed
  • All accusations and claims must be supported with diffs/links

Other feedback (Ibrahim)

There is information mentioned in the case that is completely incorrect:

  1. (All participants in the discussion agreed to defaulted activate of the gadget) that isn't true, (User:حبيشان) close the proposal and make the conclusion (make it default) without enough consensus Only two users participated in the discussion after 12 days only, then community disagree to make it default and revert it to be (optional).
  2. The conclusion I set for the discussion as an admin is (لا توافق على المقترح بعد مرور شهرين من تقديمه = No Consensus to the proposal two months after its submission). This point must be clarified. --Ibrahim.ID (talk) 11:03, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Other feedback (جودت)

I reject Ibrahim.ID's claims. The previous discussion was friendly, but it was spoiled by the administrators. The last discussion, which was closed by the administrator Ibrahim.ID, due to his authority, had most of the participants being administrators who impose their opinion on society. جودت (talk) 09:27, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Other feedback (أنون)

I'm not involved here, but I would like to chime in regarding which numeral system Arab countries use. The Arab world uses two different numeral systems. According to the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR) standard followed by Wikimedia websites,[4] most (21) Arab countries use Eastern Arabic numerals. However, six countries—Algeria, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Tunisia, and the United Arab Emirates—use Western Arabic numerals instead.[5] – Anwon (talk) 22:44, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Other feedback (أحمد كادي)

I see adding this option by default is important, because it reflects the reality of the wide use of eastern numbers, and it supports the inclusion in wikipedia, and having it available doesn't harm any parties. My regards to all —أحمد كادي (talk) 14:34, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion between the involved parties and the U4C members

Only the involved parties and U4C members may edit in this section.

  • I don't know why all this controversy, almost more than half of the Arab world's population uses Hindu-Arabic numerals as official numbers and they are taught in schools. My suggestion and the suggestion of my friend User:حبيشان will settle the controversy because there are users who demand the use of Hindu-Arabic numerals. Our suggestion is to activate the number swapping feature and make it a default button for everyone to choose the numbers they prefer to use. What is unacceptable is that the administrator User:Ibrahim.ID added his point of view and then closed the discussion, although the discussion is controversial and therefore needs an administrator with a neutral opinion to close it. جودت (talk) 16:25, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The administrator added their personal opinion to the discussion and then closed the request. This is unacceptable because it was their own choice! The request should have been closed by an administrator who did not participate in the discussion. جودت (talk) 17:07, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
لا غير صحيح، مصر تستخدم الأرقام المشرقية، طالع هذا المصدر من الجزيرة، "تنتشر الأرقام الهندية في جميع بلدان المشرق العربي وفي طليعتها مصر التي تعمل مطابعها وأجهزتها الإدارية بهذه الأرقام."
جودت (talk) 16:59, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Ibrahim.ID إشارة جودت (talk) 17:00, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, we emphasize this point:
  1. the discussion itself did not receive any support or consensus from the local community for two months, and this is a clear and settled point in the discussion.
  2. The comment I wrote before the closure was merely a personal comment that had no impact on the discussion result at all.
  3. also we don't have any policy or rules that prevents an admin who adds an opinion to the discussion from closing it, please don't assume any rules of your own, and if you have a policy or guidelines page that says so, put it here.
  4. Whatever I wrote and whatever your justifications for supporting this idea, the local community must accept your proposal by consensus. all Things are clear. --Ibrahim.ID (talk) 08:19, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no consensus on not activating the add-on. This administrator came only to spoil the discussion! There are three opinions in favor of the add-on: me, حبيشان, and another user. Administrators like you came to spoil the discussion! جودت (talk) 08:53, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Even if we assume your point is true, where is the support from the rest of the users you claim are numerous? Can we enable the gadget as the default for just 3 users who want that? Ibrahim.ID (talk) 10:05, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The previous discussion, there were 5 who wanted it and one neutral person, and most of the opponents were administrators. The problem is with the administrators of the Arabic Wikipedia. You do not represent the Arab community and you want to impose these numbers on the community, although the proposal will not change the numbers, but the numbers will remain the same. All that is required is to add a button that allows everyone to change the numbers. The button will be available to all registered and unregistered people, and those who do not want the button can disable it, because the button is useful and will resolve the ongoing controversy over the number issue. There are those who oppose making Arabic numerals official in the encyclopedia and want Hindu-Arabic numerals, and this is a discussion that was raised about this issue. The proposal will resolve the ongoing controversy over the number issue. I appreciate that there are a Arabs, such as Moroccans, who cannot understand Hindu-Arabic numerals, so I suggest a compromise, which is to add a number switching button and make it the default in Arabic Wikipedia, because as I mentioned, there are also users who are against Arabic numerals and want to make Hindu-Arabic numerals official in arabic Wikipedia.
    Note: that most Arab countries still use Hindu-Arabic numbers as official numbers (except the maghreb). جودت (talk) 12:08, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • @حبيشان: first of all, please inform the other parties and note that in the table on the top of this page. 2.) On the issue: there already is an opt-in for hindu-arabic numerals. Is it correct that you here want an extra button to switch numerals? Next, the discussion has very few participants and with low participation, results may be overinterpreted due ta small sample size - i would raise this issue again in ar.wp without canvassing to see if more people take an interest - if no more users join the discussion, then there probably is a lack of support. The typical voter group size for ar.wp serves as an orientation. --Ghilt (talk) 07:34, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ghilt:
    2. The option is created by Numeral converter toggle Gadget while this is NOT default gadget no option for unregistered users. Note that returning Eastern Arabic numbers is Mediawiki core feature disabled by Arabic Wikipedia as in config, Arabic Wikipedia give only registered users a choice to return Eastern Arabic numbers.
    - No, Here I want to activate Same Numeral converter toggle Gadget as default which mean that will work for also unregistered users, and give them same button. As Ibrahim.ID pointed out after Arabic Wikipedia disabled Eastern Arabic numbers, there are many proposals to return using of Eastern Arabic Numbers:
    1. on May 2, 2009 by User:Dudu90.
    2. on July 3, 2013 by User:الدبوني.
    3. on Jan 30, 2015 by User:الدبوني.
    4. on April 23, 2024 by User:أرمز.
    5. on June 27, 2024, by ar:User:Ras al Ghoul.
    Defaulted activation of Numeral converter toggle Gadget also proposed four times:
    1. on May 6, 2024, by User:أرمز.
    2. on July 29, 2024, by ar:User:Ras al Ghoul.
    3. on July 6, 2024, by User:محمد عبد القادر عبد القادر.
    4. on February 23, 2025, by User:جودت.
    User Objection of propsal should not be considered unless there is a clear problem with the defaulted activation of the gagdet, but the consideration of unjustified objections is contrary to the objectives of the code of conduct in making Wikipedia accessible as possible. حبيشانtalk 13:14, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ghilt
    Hello, as I explained above, there is a debate about adopting Hindu-Arabic numerals or Arabic numerals, and this is a very thorny topic in Wikipedia. Some people want Hindu-Arabic numerals and some want Arabic numerals. I think it is unfair to ignore my friend حبيشان's request (making the number swap button the default button), as in my opinion it is the fair solution to this issue. It is true that the add-on can be activated from the settings, but we demand that it be made the default so that unregistered users can activate the add-on. Also, from a cultural perspective, the oriental numerals are widely used in the Arab world and are considered official numbers in most Arab countries. I do not want to make Hindu-Arabic numerals official in the encyclopedia, but I want to make the number swap button the default button. جودت (talk) 13:16, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I want to clarify an important point. Many of the discussions that are raised and are not liked by administrators are sometimes satisfied with useless justifications whose sole purpose is to spoil the discussion, such as: “The button is not useful,” and they do not say why. When an administrator closes a discussion, they adopt those useless responses. I find that the Arabic Wikipedia uses democracy in discussions, and this contradicts the sentence: “Although everyone is able to edit it, the encyclopedia has regulatory standards and procedures, and it does not follow an Anarchism, democratic, or bureaucratic system.” written in (ar:ويكيبيديا:ليست). جودت (talk) 13:32, 30 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hello all. My position has always been in support of using hindi numbers ١٢٣ . My only suggestion is perhaps we can do what happens (or use to happen?) on English Wikipedia with regards to British VS US spelling, if the first major contributor wrote in British/US spelling, the article should keep spelling in that style. We can do this in the Arabic version - it is frustrating when I create an article, use hindi numbers, only to see a bot a few days later change it to Arabic numbers 123 against my wish.الدبوني (talk) 06:49, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      @الدبوني Hello, my friend حبيشان's suggestion makes more sense: Make the number swap button a default feature, so everyone, even non-registered users, can change numbers from Arabic to Hindu-arabic or vice versa. جودت (talk) 08:34, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      • @جودت I would not be in favour of such a move, as that is not really solving the problem but instead keeps things as they are. In other words, Arabic numbers 123 will be the standard and Hindi numbers ١٢٣ will be neglected, when they should be the primary option, as they are the in the vast majority of Arabic texts. Remember that Wikipedia does not set out to alter/modify/modernise languages, it simply a reflection of written material in that language. When I am citing Arabic sources that use Hindi numbers, it only makes sense that my work on Wikipedia should reflect those sources and copy them.الدبوني (talk) 15:43, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
        @الدبوني I fully support your idea. Hindu-arabic numerals are still the numerals used in many Arabic texts. But there is objection to making Hindu-arabic numbers as official numbers, so we have to provide a fair solution for everyone and make the number switch button the default button, this is a compromise.جودت (talk) 18:55, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ghilt @Luke081515 The Arabic Wikipedia is not an appropriate platform for discussing this issue. Most of its administrators do not consider the Arab community and reject any discussion that contradicts their volatile moods. Even if the discussion reaches a consensus, objections from a number of administrators will doom it to failure, even if the percentage of support for this measure is high. جودت (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that instead of rejecting it, they should address this issue. All discussions that open up in the Arabic Wikipedia follow democracy, not logic! جودت (talk) 15:46, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Why are you destroying our hopes for a solution to this issue, which the administrators of the Arabic Wikipedia have been unable to accept and are imposing their personal opinions on it? There is a rejection of Arabic numerals and also a rejection of Hindu-arabic numerals. We want a compromise by making the numeral switching button the default. جودت (talk) 15:52, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Ghilt @Luke081515 I may wonder that you treated this request as just a request for a defaulted activation of gadget, even though it concerns the rights of a large group of Wikipedia users, so does a group of users have the right to obstruct consensus and rob others of a feature that was included in the system without an alternative, then they have no other option There is no other linguistic code that imposes Arabic language with Eastern numerals ethier than ar so they demand a new edition of Wikipedia in Arabic with Eastern numerals. this topic is about taking away users' rights, not just defaulting a gadget.
By your declining this, you are confirming that U4C does not protect users from administrators who overthrow their linguistic rights, and there is not the slightest protection for linguistic diversity, and Wikimedia projects are linguistically biased to the majority.--حبيشانtalk 21:25, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

U4C decision

Only U4C members may edit in this section.

U4C member discussion

Accept votes

Decline votes

  • I don't see an abuse of power nor a UCoC violation here. Changes for all users including anonymous users on wiki require a high consensus, and after reading both discussions, I don't see that a real consensus was gained here. The first discussion was fastly closed after 12 days, the second discussion had only a few participants and supports and opposes in both directions and was closed after 2 months. In my opinion neither of that request for comments gained the consensus needed for that change, so closing that and not realising that was the consequent decision. Luke081515 08:47, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • The right way is to obtain community consensus on this issue. --Ghilt (talk) 08:59, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also don't see an abuse of power nor a UCoC violation and so there is nothing in our jurisdiction. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:09, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • This preference is ultimately up to the community itself to decide, and I do not think this issue is within the U4C's jurisdiction. 0xDeadbeef (talk) 03:35, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per above --Civvì (talk) 12:44, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Motions

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Updates

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