User talk:Happy-melon/Templates

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I have created this draft of a complete rewrite of Help:Template because I feel that the current version is horrifically cluttered, poorly laid out and structured, repetitive, out-of-date and overly technical, among many other faults. I don't honestly think I've left out anything that is both relevant and not an ad nauseam repetition. I would love to hear comments from other editors about how this draft could be improved and whether it represents an improvement on the current version. Happymelon 19:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please be aware that I intend to license my work on this rewrite into the public domain, so it can be moved to if desired. Please do not edit this draft unless you are similarly prepared to release your contributions into the public domain. Happymelon 19:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like you have left out relevant content, so it does not seem suitable for replacing the page Help:Template. However, your page can be used as a summary, and/or as a supply of material for merging in.--Patrick (talk) 10:35, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I fear that "as a supply of material for moving in" are the words which have caused Help:Template to fill up with poorly structured repetition for so long now. What features do you think I've left out?? I will be glad to include them in my revision. Happymelon 11:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merging in does not mean that the page gets even larger. Some parts of you may replace corresponding existing content, if they are an improvement. Some notes, to start with:
Patrick (talk) 14:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also in the section Braces and brackets the right column contains errors.--Patrick (talk) 14:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Which illustrates that although tables with "If you type .. you get" look nice, they are more cumbersome for editing. An item in the "you get" column can e.g. interfere with the table syntax.--Patrick (talk) 17:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it would be best to substitute the {{/T syntax, so these wierd examples do not necessitate fixes like this. It's also one less template that needs to be copied if/when this goes live. Happymelon 22:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see that you have fixed one example. However, where possible it seems better to have "live" examples, demonstrating how something is rendered instead of just telling it.--Patrick (talk) 10:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't agree with Happy more. The Help:Template page is god-awful. I have added {{merge}} tags on both pages. I would suggest that any person who doubts how badly Help:Template is written compared to User:Happy-melon/Templates have a non-computer scientist read this page then read Help:Template.

User:Happy-melon/Templates needs some improvement, but at least I can understand the majority of the concepts. Large portions of Help:Template are technobabble wastelands, in which only computer scientists can understand.

I fear that I am alienating several users who created Help:Template, that is really a shame because we really need these users help in rewriting Help:Template. I need help in understanding these complex programming terms, so they can be rewritten in way that the general public understands.

The user above says that Happy has left out "relevant content". Much of the complex "relevant content" technobabble on Help:Template, not covered here on happy, can be relegated to footnotes. Odessaukrain 17:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I second Odessaukrain's comments. I find Help:Template and similar help files to be incredibly useless for someone who is trying to learn what templates are, how they can be used, and (if necessary) how they can be created. For example, they do not explain the difference between double braces or triple braces. This is elementary, but critical, to template novices and seems to be completely ignored by Help:Template. I would prefer that Help:Template provided a brief introduction to templates and then was largely an index to beginner, intermediate and advanced topics. As such, I am not sure that Happy Melon's page is what I would recommend for Help:Template itself, but Happy Melon's page is by far the best site for explaining beginning and some intermediate template concepts. RPClod 16:26, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Category inclusion[edit]

Not sure if this fits here, but thought I'd suggest this. In earlier versions of w:en:Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup, there was this text:

Note: Many cleanup templates listed below need their own minor cleanup. They add tagged pages to a category, as well as lists with examples. To disable this, replace: ...<includeonly>[[Category:etc.]]</includeonly> with ...<includeonly>{{{category|[[Category:etc.]]}}}</includeonly>.

It was deleted on 2007-10-16T02:59:52, for unclear reasons. I think it should be standard for templates that assign categories, so that we can use them as examples, etc., without having to put the page where the example template sits into the template's categories.

I realize your rewrite is meant to be more explanatory than policy, but I thought it might be useful. If this is not the appropriate place for it (and if you think it is good practice), do you have a suggestion for where it should go?

I do think your rewrite is much clearer and easier to follow than the current page. Libcub 04:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added this at Help:Category#Excluding_templates_and_selected_pages_from_categories.--Patrick (talk) 11:18, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead[edit]

Go ahead my edits are released Odessaukrain 02:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that makes things much easier. Happymelon 12:00, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you[edit]

The original page made my head hurt. This one is infinitely better. I don't know enough to comment on its completeness, but for readability and helpfulness I think it is exemplary. Mcewan 11:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is the first example in the Pipe Character section correct? There's a <nowiki> in the What you type column. Mcewan 15:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Default Parameters[edit]

You may or may not be interested in addressing the following. As part of my process of learning templates, I am trying to work my way through an existing template. Due to an article that I authored, I selected the Citation template, and more particularly the Citation/patent template, which the Citation template calls. As the Citation/patent template lacks documentation, I thought I might provide that for others following my path. I was surprised at how quickly I became stuck. TMALSS, toward the beginning, the template uses an #if parser function with a condition string of {{{Ref|}}}. As indicated in my draft analysis, I do not see this parameter getting called and cannot determine why a pipe would be followed by nothing or why an undefined (or possibly null) parameter would be used as a condition string. Your section on defaul parameters seems tantalizing close to answering my questions. I don't know if this issue would be appropriate for your discussion. RPClod 16:26, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]