WikiConference India 2016/Community and Team/IRC/December 6, 2015

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Date and Time
December 6, 2015, 10:30 pm

How to connect ?
IRC Channel at ##wikiconferenceindiaconnect

Second Jury Discussion


IRC session log.

[22:37] <AshLin> Is there anybody out there?

[22:38] <ravidreams_> Hi

[22:40] <AshLin> Good to know someone is out there :) Ravidreams

[22:41] <Niharika> Hello. Is there a meeting today?

[22:42] <AshLin> Yes, and you are from which community, Niharika?

[22:45] <ravidreams_> Hi Ashwin, Niharika works for WMF community tech

[22:45] <ravidreams_> She is from Delhi

[22:45] <Niharika> AshLin: I am not an active editor on any community. I am a WMF staffer.

[22:45] <Niharika> Yep.

[22:45] <AshLin> ok

[22:46] <AshLin> part of Chapter or CIS?

[22:46] <ravidreams_> Hi Niharika the WCI 2016 jury is meeting today

[22:46] <Niharika> ravidreams_: Okay. Is the bidding process over?

[22:47] <Niharika> AshLin: Umm, is there an official registration process?

[22:47] <ravidreams_> Hi AshLin let's wait for some time for others to join

[22:48] <ravidreams_> AshLin: she works directly with the WMF

[22:48] <AshLin> if you are WMF in India, Niharika, one would assume you to be part of Wikimedia India Chapter or the Centre of Internet and Society. Or are you directly under WMF in San Fran?

[22:48] <AshLin> ok

[22:49] <ravidreams_> Niharika: 3 cities have placed bids. We need to select one

[22:49] <Niharika> AshLin: I am directly under WMF. Although I work remotely. Like many of my Language Team colleagues. Santhosh etc.

[22:49] <AshLin> nice to meet you Niharika, I'm user:AshLin from english Wikipedia community. :)

[22:50] <Niharika> ravidreams_: Thanks. Saw those.

[22:51] <Niharika> AshLin: Nice to meet you too. Are you from India?

[22:52] <kalyan> hi all

[22:53] <AshLin> Niharika : Yes. I'm from Pune community.  

[22:54] <AshLin> Hi Kalyan

[22:54] <kalyan> hi ashwin sir! how are you?

[22:55] <kalyan> i'm just back from greater behala book fair in kolkata, where we've put up a stall

[22:55] <kalyan> hi niharika

[22:56] <kalyan> brb

[22:57] <Niharika> Hi kalyan.

[22:58] <AshLin> Hi Kalyan :) Nice to be in touch with you again.

[22:58] <AshLin> Oh, I love Kolkata and I had a whale of a time there though I participated in just two events :D

[22:59] <AshLin> Wish I was there longer :)

[23:00] <ravidreams_> AshLin:  we will start by 10

[23:00] <ravidreams_> Without waiting further

[23:01] <Niharika> ravidreams_: Is this the meeting where you select the final city?

[23:02] <AshLin> Any chance of Anirudh or Viswa turning up?

[23:04] <AshLin> Niharika : Yes, its for this purpose though we may/could deliberate the matter beyond this meeting too

[23:08] <ravidreams> Abhay will join shortly

[23:09] <ravidreams> Netha confirmed participation earlier but no update now

[23:09] <ravidreams> Anirudh won't be joining

[23:09] <Abhay> Hello

[23:10] <ravidreams> Hi Abhay

[23:10] <Abhay> How is it going?

[23:10] <ravidreams> We are just getting started after saying hi hi

[23:10] <ravidreams> you, kalyan and ashwin are here from the jury

[23:11] <Abhay> ok

[23:11] <AshLin> Any hope of Viswa being present?

[23:12] <Abhay> Are Niharika and Shanmugam WMF? Volunteers?

[23:12] <AshLin> Hi Abhay, welcome :)

[23:12] <Abhay> Hey Ashwin

[23:13] <ravidreams> Shanmugam is a Tamil community member and a global steward

[23:13] <ravidreams> Niharika is WMF staff -

[23:13] <Niharika> Hi Abhay.

[23:13] <Abhay> Very well, ty

[23:13] <Abhay> Hi Niharika

[23:14] <ravidreams> I guess Niharika and Shanmugam hang around multiple IRC channels for tech reasons

[23:14] <ravidreams> We all will stay observers and the jury can place any specific questions for u

[23:14] <ravidreams> for us

[23:14] <AshLin> shall we begin?

[23:14] <Abhay> Yes

[23:14] <ravidreams> Here we go:

[23:15] <ravidreams> All 3 cities have placed updates

[23:15] <ravidreams> based on the questions jury sent

[23:15] <AshLin> Opening query? Are three of us enough to decide the issue? (quorum)

[23:15] <Shanmugamp7> Hi ravidreams  :)

[23:17] <Abhay> I am not sure that we are a quorum

[23:17] <AshLin> The community nominate six editors. If we decide, even with consensus, an exact number can be of the opposing view.

[23:17] <AshLin> who are not present

[23:18] <Abhay> exactly @ consensus does not make for majority

[23:18] <AshLin> Kalyan, are you here back with us?

[23:19] <ravidreams> Well, I just wanted to get the next round of discussion started on city selection

[23:19] <ravidreams> Let us not worry about quorum or final decision todya

[23:19] <ravidreams> we can analyse the updates and decide what to do next. If a quorum is needed, we can let the jury vote in meta

[23:20] <kalyan> i'm back

[23:20] <AshLin> Ravi, I'm not sure discussing the city bids right now here is the right thing to do in absence of a quorum.

[23:20] <kalyan> agree with ravi

[23:20] <Abhay> ok, so we'll hold off on ruling unless we get more jury members joining

[23:20] <Abhay> but no need to hold off discussion

[23:21] <kalyan> agree with abhay

[23:21] <Abhay> Ashwin, we can talk about the bids to see if things can be clearer so to help future discussions/vote

[23:21] <ravidreams> Well, if you feel quorum is must for any kind of discussion it can only be asynchonous and done in meta

[23:21] <AshLin> so Kalyan & Abhay feel its okay, then away we go.

[23:21] <ravidreams> The communities have updated and wondering what next. So, we are looking up to the jury :)

[23:22] <AshLin> Taking a broad overview, imho we need to forstly reduce the bid from three cities to two only.

[23:23] <Abhay> first up, I had volunteered to see if I Nashik/Ahmednagar can combine their bids

[23:23] <AshLin> The Ahmednagar bid imho is invalid because there doesn't seem to be a city community existing (as per the bid)

[23:23] <Abhay> I'm sad to say that that effort was useless.....they do not seem to agree.

[23:24] <Abhay> In fact, there were personal attacks on me accusing me of favoring one city over the other, in spite of my repeated exhortions that all I want to do is strengthen *one* bid, any bid

[23:24] <AshLin> Nagar also hasn't organised any major event unlike the other two communities.

[23:24] <Abhay> To the point where I almost stepped away in disgust :-((

[23:24] <Abhay> Long story short, there will not be a combined bid between 'Nagar and Nashik

[23:24] <kalyan> i also mentioned that nashik & ahmednagar should put a joint bid

[23:25] <AshLin> Abhay, in my o
[pinion, after this decision is done, we shall be very unpopular indeed

[23:25] <Abhay> We shall be unpopular no matter what decision we come up with

[23:25] <Abhay> Any jury runs a siginificant risk of that :-)

[23:25] <kalyan> true

[23:26] <AshLin> So, that means, we consider Nagar on its own merits alone agaisnt Nashik and Chandigarh.

[23:26] <Abhay> So the more objective we are, the better.

[23:26] <kalyan> but to be honest nagar's bid has little substance

[23:26] <Abhay> Correct, each city is its own independent bid, at this point

[23:27] <AshLin> So points against Nagar - lack of community support, lack of experience in organising Wikimedia related events of notable size/importance.

[23:28] <Abhay> Nagar has asserted (on w:mr) that Nashik's bid came in late. afaik, they were within the timelimit. Ravi, are you able to verify that or contradict?

[23:28] <AshLin> This combination strikes out Nagar as these were the very issues we had asked city communities to elaborate on by 30 November.

[23:28] <kalyan> yes

[23:28] <kalyan> but as we decided in the beginning that we'll not take a final decision today

[23:29] <AshLin> agreed, so this can be our recommendation when we meet next on IRC or vote offline

[23:30] <kalyan> agree with you

[23:30] <AshLin> So lets not spend time and effort on Nagar any more and discuss issues pertaining to other two cities only

[23:31] <Abhay> Ravi, can you please confirm/contradict that Nashik's bid was within the timeline?

[23:31] <kalyan> shall we discuss nashik?

[23:31] <ravidreams> Abhay: This is the stored version for October 18 -

[23:32] <ravidreams> All 3 cities have placed bids within the deadline we gave and all 3 cities did also continue to add more details later.

[23:32] <ravidreams> In my opinion, so this technicality need not be a big issue for qualifying

[23:33] <Abhay> Great...that seemed to be an issue on w:mr. The above link settles that

[23:33] <Abhay> let's move on

[23:34] <kalyan> shall we discuss nashik?

[23:34] <Abhay> ok

[23:34] <AshLin> Next query : Community support : adequate or not? City-wise

[23:34] <AshLin> Nashik first.

[23:35] <AshLin> Ah, saviour, we got quorum, welcome Netha :)

[23:36] <Netha> Sorry people, I slept off in between and woke up too late :-(

[23:36] <kalyan> hi netha

[23:36] <Netha> Hello Kalyan, AshLin!
[23:37] <ravidreams>	 Netha: Follow today's chat log here -
[23:37] <ravidreams>	 Start reading from 22:08	
[23:37] <Netha>	 Thanks a lot, ravidreams. I will go through the log quickly
[23:38] <wm-bot5>	 Change on  a page  Talk:WikiConference India 2016/City/First Bids  was modified,  changed by AshLin  link edit summary: Added part chat
[23:38] <ravidreams>	 in UTC [16:38:01]	
[23:39] <AshLin>	 :D Ravi, great minds think alike, though one uses tech & the others use manual methods ;)	
[23:40] <AshLin>
[23:42] <kalyan>	 now that we have a quorum, can we quickly revisit nagar?
[23:43] <AshLin>	 Netha, waiting for your cue
[23:44] <Netha>	 Are we looking through each city's bid and discussing the pros and cons now?	
[23:44] <AshLin>	 yes please	
[23:45] <Netha>	 So, we are starting with Ahmednagar	
[23:45] <AshLin>	 our first proposed action is to decide whether Ahmednagar makes the cut or not
[23:45] <AshLin>	 reposting "So points against Nagar - lack of community support, lack of experience in organising Wikimedia related events of notable size/importance."	
[23:46] <Netha>	 I am not sure if Ahmednagar has done sufficient background work to place a bid	
[23:46] <Abhay>	 I should point out that volunteers from Mumbai and possibly Pune have agreed to help Nagar, should it win the bid
[23:46] <AshLin>	 Yes, and it had two occassions to do so.
[23:47] <AshLin>	 Yes, but that's not the same as having an existing community support
[23:48] <AshLin>	 Infact I'm not sure that there is a meaningful community at all in Nagar though there aure to be individual Wikipedians
[23:48] <Netha>	 I am not seeing volunteers from Pune or Mumbai supporting the bid, so I am assuming that they do not have volunteer support from neighbouring cities at this point
[23:48] <AshLin>	 *are sure
[23:49] <AshLin>	 volunteers fro, Mumbai/Pune are a support, they connot replace the need for an active community within the city itself
[23:49] <Netha>	 ^Agree with AshLin here
[23:49] <kalyan>	 agree
[23:50] <kalyan>	 communication is another major factor
[23:51] <AshLin>	 Abhay : what say regarding community support in Ahmednagar?
[23:52] <Netha>	 My understanding of Marathi is limited, but I can see from the village pump in Marathi Wikipedia that the idea of hosting wci met with lukewarm response
[17:17] <Abhay>	 Objectively speaking, Nagar has not put forth all possible and potential support. Mumbai and Pune volunteers (at least a few each) have supported bid on w:mr
[23:54] <Abhay>	 Nashik does seem to have more/bigger pool of volunteers who have supported its bid
[23:54] <Abhay>	 Volunteers from Nashik are mostly offline volunteers
[23:55] <AshLin>	 I agree, Abhay. Imho. the first essential to a bid is for an active city community to exist, provide definite support and then everything else follows.
[23:55] <Netha>	 It doesnt matter if the volunteers work online or offline, but I am not sure if the volunteers who offered support are active
[23:56] <Abhay>	 Netha, are you asking about Nagar or Nashik?
[23:57] <Netha>	 Nagar
[23:57] <AshLin>	 So, before we move onto Nashik & Chandigarh, I propose we vote on the issue of Ahmednagar, whether it qualifies as a serious bid or not. Is that okay with all of us?
[23:57] <Abhay>	 ok, Of the two volunteers I'm thinking of, one from Mumbai is active offline and the one from Pune is active online.
[23:58] <Abhay>	 Again, I'm not trying to sway any decisions here....just bringing out facts :-)
[23:58] <Abhay>	 @AshLin - I'm ok with it
[23:58] <AshLin>	 Netha? Kalyan?
[23:59] <kalyan>	 for me no
[23:591] <kalyan>	 nagar does not qualify
[23:59] <Netha>	 I opine that Ahmednagar does not qualify as a serious bid.
[00:00] <Abhay>	 I will abstain (i.e., I do not agree, nor disagree)
[00:00] <AshLin>	 okay, for the record, my vote is Nagar does not qualify & we hope the city community grows in due course and becomes eligible in future
[00:00] <AshLin>	 Fair enough, Abhay.
[00:01] <Abhay>	 So we have a 3-0-1 vote on this (Nagar does not qualify - 3 agree, 0 disagree, 1 abstain) that correct?
[00:02] <Netha>	 Yes
[00:05] <AshLin>	 Sorry, internet crash by my ISP
[00:05] <AshLin>	 what have I missed?
[00:05] <Netha>	 You did not miss anything
[00:06] <AshLin>	 Abhay, your statement is accurate
[00:06] <Netha>	 Now that we voted on nagar, let us move on to Nashik and Chandigarh
[00:07] <AshLin>	 I think we achieved something till now - bids reduced to two cities.
[00:07] <AshLin>	 Further discussion will take much longer and its already 11 o clock
[00:08] <AshLin>	 do we continue or take it up afresh another day
[00:08] <Abhay>	 <braces for the slew of personal attacks that are bound to follow this decision> :-/
[00:08] <Abhay>	 I am ok either way on continuing
[00:08] <Abhay>	 I'ts the morning for me :-)
[00:09] <AshLin>	 I'm really pooped and feeling too good, I'd like to continue another day
[00:09] <ravidreams>	 I will recommend the jury to give quick comments on Nashik and Chandigarh bids
[00:09] <AshLin>	 *not feeling
[00:09] <ravidreams>	 so it needs improvements, the communities get some time before jury meets next
[00:10] <Netha>	 I have napped for longer than usual, so I am okay either way
[00:10] <Abhay>	 I'd reiterate the need to remove "touristy" information...still see a lot of that
[00:10] <AshLin>	 I have no objections to communities improving their bids
[00:10] <ravidreams>	 OK, I can remove the touristy part from the bids page if that helps in readability
[00:11] <AshLin>	 If we can wrap this up by twelve I can hold on
[00:11] <Abhay>	 And provide specific detail, preferably with documentation where available/applicable
[00:12] <Abhay>	 about claims/assertions, if any.....after all, {{Citation needed}} is a favorite of ours, right? ;-)
[00:12] <AshLin>	 yeah, I can put up an image of me yawning on Commons to prove my assertion ;)
[00:13] <Abhay>	 lol @ AshLin, but no thanks
[00:13] <Abhay>	 I realize that proof/documenationa may not be ready so far out....just add whatever is available. It will only make a bid stronger.
[00:13] <Netha>	 Let's start with one city first
[00:13] <AshLin>	 I propose that we decide our methodology for deciding the issue now & do the actual deciding in the next session
[00:14] <AshLin>	 okay, whether we decide now or later, lets continue till I drop dead
[00:14] <AshLin>	 ;)
[00:15] <AshLin>	 The key factors on which we decide should be?
[00:16] <Abhay>	 City and proposed venue. This city should have at least a domestic airport.
[00:16] <Abhay>	 Wikimedia signatures of active Wikimedia projects editors who commit to be involved in organizing this in your city
[00:16] <Abhay>	 Link to local village pump where the bid has been approved with community consensus
[00:16] <Abhay>	 Proposed overall budget to conduct an event with 500 registered participants (including the accommodation cost for 100 scholarship recipients for 3 days).
[00:16] <Abhay>	 Prior experience conducting similar event(s)
[00:16] <Netha>	 I suggest that we follow a scoring system, with scores from 0-5 for each point
[00:17] <Abhay>	 Good idea, Netha, that keeps it objective
[00:17] <AshLin>	 Good thinking, Netha :)
[00:17] <Netha>	 Okay, here are my suggestions for points to be looked for in the bid:
[00:18] <Netha>	 1. Reasonable conference budget
[00:19] <Netha>	 2. Documentation regarding how the team is going to procure the funding
[00:19] <Netha>	 3. Availability of volunteers to help with onsite logistics, registration, outreach, network/connectivity infrastructure, finding sponsors
[00:20] <Netha>	 (ideally I would want each supporting member to come up with what they are willing to do for the conference)
[00:20] <Abhay>	 Netha, the criteria was spelled out at the beginning of the process. It's best we do not deviate from it. It won't be fair to anyone.
[00:20] <Abhay>	 at least, not deviate too far. It's fine to clarify or look for details
[00:21] <Netha>	 4. Yeah, that is right, Abhay
[00:22] <AshLin>	 Netha, what was your 4th criteria?
[00:23] <Netha>	 4. Network infrastructure and connectivity
[00:24] <ravidreams>	 Hi, just wanted to add some context here
[00:25] <ravidreams>	 The criteria outlined earlier were for first round of bidding. It was intentionally kept simple to encourage more bids
[00:25] <AshLin>	 The way I understand it Abhay, the broad parameters were worked out. Imho we are free to clarify, provide fine detail. If this still does not help us decide, we are free to even modify if the need is felt (with consensus)
[00:25] <ravidreams>	 Now that we have advanced to the second and final round with clear request for details from the jury, the jury is at liberty to add further criteria based on which they can assess the bids
[00:26] <AshLin>	 Abhay & Netha, have given their minds
[00:26] <AshLin>	 Kalyan, your turn now
[00:26] <ravidreams>	 And the jury may please not evaluate the bids on capaibility to attract sponsors, reporting nitty gritties, securing funds etc.,
[00:26] <Netha>	 I can't think of more points right now, but I can come up with more ideas in a day or so
[00:26] <ravidreams>	 as the host city is only a part of a bigger pan-India organizing team which will take care of many other issues
[00:26] <ravidreams>	 It is not that they are going to do everything alone
[00:27] <AshLin>	 I agree with Ravi - lets stick to the basics
[00:27] <Abhay> that support is available to all cities in the running
[00:28] <AshLin>	 of course, that is a given
[00:28] <ravidreams>	 Yes, the bids are our attempt to make WCI inclusive and transparent
[00:28] <kalyan>	 i have nothing to add on the detailed criteria that was prepared after the first irc session
[00:29] <AshLin>	 okay
[00:30] <kalyan>	 agree with netha on having a scoring table
[00:31] <Netha>	 If we should have a scoring table, we should have the criteria listed out in bullet points
[00:31] <kalyan>	 can we prepare such a table based on the criteria we discussed
[00:31] <kalyan>	 sure netha
[00:32] <AshLin>	 friends, I'm about to fall asleep at my keyboard. I'd like to really call it a day/night now & then resume say, on Wednesday night, with communities being permitted to improve bids till then
[00:32] <AshLin>	 please continue the discussio without me and I'll read the logs and catch up
[00:32] <kalyan>	 i'm yawning for a long time, infact i dozed off in between
[00:32] <Abhay>	 Evening IST don't work well for me...but you are welcome to continue without me if that time works best for everyone else
[00:33] <Abhay>	 (i.e. evenings IST on weekdays don't work well for me....evenings IST on weekends are the best)
[00:33] <Netha>	 I think it is wise to stop the discussion for today and resume later. Meanwhile, let us think about the bullet points that should go into the scoring table.
[00:33] <kalyan>	 can we quickly summarize the action items before we conclude?
[00:34] <AshLin>	 I am available after 4 PM IST most days unless specific commitments
[00:34] <AshLin>	 ok, we decided that a quorum ids necessary for deciding, we achieved that quorum
[00:35] <AshLin>	 we decided to examine the bids for bids which didn't come upto the mark
[00:36] <AshLin>	 in that we had a consensus (3 votes for, nil against, 1 abstain) that Ahmednagar bid did not qualify
[00:37] <AshLin>	 we then decided that the criteria for the process of final deciding be revisited and we are deliberating on these
[00:38] <AshLin>	 we accepted Netha's suggestion for a scoring system of 1 to 5 points for each criteria, so as to be objective
[00:39] <AshLin>	 we aggcept communities providing additional details upto the point we next discuss the bids which are reduced to two
[00:40] <AshLin>	 we now have to decide a fresh date for irs
[00:40] <AshLin>	 may I kindly request Ravi's good offices once again for setting up the next irc please?
[00:41] <AshLin>	 Is this acceptable as a summary?
[00:42] <kalyan>	 i would further add that we prepare and finalize the scoring table before the next irc
[00:42] <AshLin>	 great idea, may I request Kalyan to do te needful?
[00:43] <Abhay>	 I think that's a good summary
[00:43] <ravidreams>	 I think Saturday 9.30 PM works best for people in all time zones
[00:43] <AshLin>	 perhaps on email amongst the WCI city selection jury?
[00:43] <kalyan>	 let me try
[00:43] <ravidreams>	 Let's try to do the scoring table before that
[00:44] <AshLin>	 Saturday 12th is okay. Saturday 19th I'm not available.
[00:45] <ravidreams>	 Let's finish this ASAP so we have time for planning other things
[00:45] <AshLin>	 super yawwn, I just gotta go guys
[00:45] <ravidreams>	 Saturday 12th looks ok
[00:45] <ravidreams>	 Ya, let's call it a day
[00:45] <ravidreams>	 Good night all
[00:45] <AshLin>	 thanks Ravi for getting us together :)
[00:45] <Abhay>	 g'night everyone.
[00:45] <Abhay>	1
[00:45] <kalyan>	 let me try on prepare the scoring table before 12th
[00:45] <kalyan>	 good night
[00:45] <ravidreams>	 And thank you all for participating in short notice !
[00:45] <ravidreams>	 See you
[00:46] <AshLin>	 thanks fellow jury members for the free, frank discussion
[00:46] <AshLin>	 thanks obervers Niharika and Shanmugan
[00:46] <kalyan>	 where can i get the transcript of this chat?
[00:46] <AshLin>	 gn all
[00:46] <Niharika>	 Welcome AshLin.
[00:47] <Niharika>	 kalyan:
[00:47] <kalyan>	 thank you very much niharika
[00:50] <kalyan>	 good night