Wikimedia Forum/Archives/2007-10

From Meta, a Wikimedia project coordination wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Warning! Please do not post any new comments on this page. This is a discussion archive first created in October 2007, although the comments contained were likely posted before and after this date. See current discussion or the archives index.

Local adaptation of CheckUser policy

See Talk:CheckUser policy#Local adaptation of CheckUser policy.--Cave cattum 10:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Disable uploads for new wikis

Shouldn't it be a good idea to disable image uploading for new approved wikis? I think this would be very good. Now there are already some wikis which have disabled it, under which the Spanish Wikipedia. SPQRobin 10:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be a good idea. I personally think all our images should be free ones on Commons, and all wikis should have uploads disabled. But then there's the problem of images being used in the interface... Majorly (talk) 10:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, that's a good point. Maybe it's possible to add a software feature to protect images from being deleted, then images which are important on other wikis can be protected. SPQRobin 10:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it possible to disable updates for not-sysop accounts? --Ooswesthoesbes 16:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah yes, I think it is. Majorly (talk) 16:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Pages in the namespace Images on Commons can be protected. That means that the image cannot be updated by non-sysops and that the image description page cannot be updated. Commons also uses {{EditProtected}}. Siebrand 14:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, who can decide things like this? Because I think this will just be archived without anything else... SPQRobin 20:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this is really a very good idea, take 5 small-projects per random and have a look at their uploaded images, I am 100% sure You will find copyright-violations and or files without source and licence. The image upload should per default be set to sysops only. This should not only apply to new projects. Best regards, --birdy geimfyglið (:> )=| 20:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I think it shouldn't be done, it takes away all freedom, except if a Wiki becomes inactive or has no sysops (active). --OosWesThoesBes 20:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
imho it would only take the freedom to upload copyrighted images. The uploads would not be impossible, there is Commons, and the uploads would be redirected there. If it is limited to sysops the only locally needed files (Wiki.png) are no problem. Best regards, --birdy geimfyglið (:> )=| 20:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, a general restriction to sysops could be helpful, *but*, in many small wikis people are sysops who themselves don't really think about licence of images and so on. It's not like in the greater projects where only people are elected sysop if they show that they at least know that copyright images can not be freely uploaded and used. So I think it would be better to advice the sysops of smaller projects if they request the sysop flag on Meta. I mean, it could be a good idea to make a kind of short sysop manual that every sysop candidate who is not given the flag by local bureaucrats should read and accept before getting the flag. And of course every local bureaucrat should be adviced too. It would be a lot of work to make sure that the instructions are understandable (they should be available in as many languages as possible, of course), but anyway, I think we need something like that. Not only thinking of image uploading, but also of advicing local sysops how to keep the wiki clean of crap and vandals. --Thogo (talk) 21:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Unified File Archives

I would like to suggest that it would be better if we had unified archives here. What I would like to say is the files uploaded to the Wikipedia Tagalog will be viable in Wiktionary English, Wikipedia Thai, so-on and vice-versa. I know that we can upload files into Wikimedia Commons so that it can be available in all projects. But what I want to suggest is that we do not have to upload it to Wikimedia Commons anymore. That we can upload it in Chinese Wikipedia and still it will be uploaded in Wikimedia Commons. This is so that we can prevent repetitive uploads over projects for editors to find it more convenient not to upload images anymore that are available on other projects, and that Wikimedia servers will be more efficient. With many same files over different projects, we can save gigabytes of memory. And also the user accounts, I wish that it will also be that if I am a member of English Wikipedia, I can also use the same account on other projects or languages. Thank you. Felipe Aira

What files are being repeated across multiple projects? The only things I can think of would be Fair Use images (examples: [1][2][3]). However, we (in theory, if not in execution) need to come up with Fair Use rationales for each and every FU image we use on each and every project, meaning that a single "catch-all" rationale would be difficult.
As for the account, you're asking about a unified login, which is something that is being worked on (but, given the scope of all the WM projects, isn't something easily achieved). EVula // talk // 16:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Resolution policy talk page comment

Could someone please bring Talk:Resolution:Licensing policy to the attention of the right people? I've made various noises about this over at en-wikipedia, and pointed it out to at least one Board Member, but nothing seems to have happened. I'm raising it here because the current page is a redirect to a translation request and it would have been nice to get this clarified before translation took place. Any help with actually getting some response on this (even if it is to say that no changes are needed) would be nice. Thanks. Carcharoth 11:16, 02 October 2007 (UTC)

International vandalism day?

Is today international vandalism day? They keep coming! I'm getting crazy of it! --OosWesThoesBes 14:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia Admin Period of Duty and Academic Review

  • Is wikipedia read and reviewed by professors of their fields, at least for complicated scientific articles above high school?
  • Is there a general rule or schedule on how long one can be an adminstator of a wikipedia and keep office before he is either retired or required to be reelected?
  • Is there a general rule as to how long an administrator in a wikipedia may be completely inactive before he is retired? A person may have died or lost her password, or turned to another hobby, et cetera.

Retiring here means, revert back to not be administrator.

Excuse me if it is here wrong place for to ask, but I could not find a better one. We are talking about why is wikipedia reliable in my school class and how it is accomplished by which rules and habits? --88.76.209.86 11:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia is used by many acedemics, although it should not be considered totally reliable unless everything is fully sourced. I don't know about reviewing, but perhaps professors who are editors will correct mistakes they come across.
On the English Wikipedia, admins are currently "for life", unless the are removed if they are found to have abused or misused their admin tools in a big way. Of course, admins can resign whenever they like, by asking a steward. On other projects, such as Simple English Wikipedia, two inactive admins were recently removed, and here on Meta, there are yearly confirmations of each admin - some get removed that way.
Finally, there is no rule as such. Admins are simply left to become inactive (at least on enwiki - as I said in other projects there are different rules). Majorly (talk) 13:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Since the questioner is concerned with "talking about why is wikipedia reliable in my school class", it could be better to determine which language Wikipedia is concerned in particular? There are over 200 active language versions. However, since admins are not editors in the way of traditional publications, I have no idea why you think admin related system is related to the reliability of content. --Aphaia 13:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia is a good place to start references, but then it is best to check it by a totally "reliable" source, I feel there can be "flaws" in the process used of accepting and deleting any entry on Wikipeida, when the persons who do this may not be qualified in that subject and are only expressing personal opinions. Also it is far too easy for "any" individual to change or alter an entry. Fact references demanded for entry on Wikipedia are not always fully reliable, while others are rejected. JBS 09:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC) John

Why isn't the talk page email notification feature more widespread?

I absolutely love this feature both here and on Commons. Why isn't it used on more projects? I could understand that it could be a major performance slammer on larger projects (like en.wp), but surely it could be activated for the smaller ones, like Wikispecies, Test Wiki, or the Incubator. (though really I'd prefer seeing it activated on all the projects). EVula // talk // 16:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You can make a proposal on a wikis to activate the email on change feature. Once you have reached consensus that it is a wanted feature, you can request the feature to be activated through an issue in bugzilla:. Cheers! Siebrand 07:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

News, Current Events et cetera

This is just what I have noticed on almost all Wikipedias, they have news templates in their main pages. I think this should not be since we have Wikinews available in most major languages in Wikipedia and Wikinews in other languages are already under incubation. I believe that instead of putting news templates in Wikipedia we should put a link and promote Wikinews for news reports because the main goal of Wikipedia is to create an encyclopedia. Templates in the main pages of Wikipedias should be those related to Wikipedia like featured articles and pictures, new articles et cetera. And for me news reports is not really as near to the goal of Wikipedia. So finally I suggest that we remove "In the news" or any of its kind in Wikipedias of all languages or at least discourage it and promote Wikinews more.--Felipe Aira

Well, there's no real way to transclude Wikinews content directly onto other projects, and we can't just copy and paste from Wikinews to, say, Wikipedia, because of opposing copyright tags (Wikinews is Creative Commons, while pretty much everywhere else is GFDL). At most, pages like w:Template:In the news could link to Wikinews for the individual items that are listed, but often times related articles don't exist. There's already a link to Wikinews right at the bottom, which is probably the best way of doing it (there's no actual benefit to the user for being sent off-site for everything). EVula // talk // 15:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Standardizing language templates

I've been implementing my own take on the "this article in other languages" template that appears at the top of some articles. For examples of this, see {{Megalomaniacal}}, {{ConflictingPhilo-lang}}, and {{Wikistandards-langs}}.

I suppose I should at least see if converting everything over to this simple little style works for everyone else before going too far. :)

I'd also like to strip out the inline CSS and put it in the monobook, but that'd come after getting more feedback. Thoughts? EVula // talk // 15:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. Please note that a base template already exists, {{Other languages}}; maybe the templates you created should use it? At least, I think their design should be consistent (whatever style is chosen). Korg + + 15:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Well... crap. :)
There is at least one major (functional) difference between the two templates: {{Other languages}} only allows for the articles to be sub-pages of the English version of the article. Pages like 冲突的维基百科理念 would have to be moved to Conflicting Wikipedia philosophies/zh-hans. Alternatively, {{Other languages}} would have to be altered to support putting in entire links... not necessarily a bad thing, but it'd take a bit of work.
I do agree that a standardized method of display is a good thing, regardless of which it is. Since I just discovered a CSS flaw with my current styling that shows itself when the template spans two rows, I'm kind of leaning towards the existing template for the overall layout, but I prefer my method of displaying the native language name alongside the ISO code and the language-independent "edit this template" link. I think I'll play around with a new version to see if I can marry the two effectively. EVula // talk // 18:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I played around with it and came up with {{Other languages/sandbox}}. This standardizes the look using the existing template (which I think sets it apart better than my own version), is multi-lingual (in both the native display of the name, which the current one does anyway, but also displaying the ISO code, and the language-neutral edit link), and is flexible enough that it won't require renaming everything just to shoehorn it into a template's fields.
I kinda like the idea of keeping all the related templates as sub-pages (like {{Other languages/Wikinews/Vote}}). It would certainly help standardize the naming scheme. Thoughts? EVula // talk // 21:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Could you explain the benefits of displaying the ISO 639 code? The standard template displays each language name in that language, which seems logical to me; there's no reason for someone to look for the French version unless they can read français. It seems rather cluttered to me with the ISO 639 codes.
Also, the current standard uses lowercase language codes in the page names (your template uses sentence case), since they're used more like disambiguators than subpages. It would be preferable if the merged template used the same standard. To address an earlier comment, the template does not assume that the top page is English; you could have a French top page with an English disambiguator, or even better no top page (as with the 2007 board elections pages). Some pages have redirects from the subpages to the translated titles, so even the subpage standard can be transparent. —{admin} Pathoschild 22:35:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
In the Board Elections example, the top page is still English (/2007 redirects to /2007/en, and the page itself is still named "Board elections"); I'm referring more to the title of the page being translated into the language used on the page (to use my previous example, "冲突的维基百科理念" instead of "Conflicting Wikipedia philosophies/zh-hans"), which I think is more helpful to keep in the native language for some things (stuff like board elections, on the other hand, make more sense to keep in a highly structured and organized manner; I'm not suggesting for an instant that they be changed).
I'm incredibly biased towards displaying the ISO code, as I'm routinely editing in languages that I can't actually read (which is everything except English), but can readily identify their ISO code. I can't tell the difference between something written in Русский, Македонски, Српски, or Українська, but if I see ru, mk, sr, and uk, I know it's Russian, Macedonian, Serbian, and Ukranian. Is it a major issue? No. But it's one more step towards language neutrality, which I consider to be rather important in a multi-language environment like Meta.
Not sure what you mean by "your template uses sentence case". One of the things I like about my way of doing things is that it's flexible enough that it doesn't matter how the articles are named (and if there are redirects, why use them when you can bypass them?). If they (the language subpages) were all upper caps, all lower caps, or sentenced caps (It, En, Ru, etc), it wouldn't matter. EVula // talk // 23:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree, the merged template should use the language-neutral edit link and allow any page name in parameters, like the internationalization templates on Commons.
Regarding the ISO code, I agree with Pathoschild that it overloads the template a bit, but I understand your point. Just a thought: what about adding it in the "hover box" over links, as in en:Template:Wikipedialang? (example: Conflicting Wikipedia philosophies冲突的维基百科理念). It's rather unnoticeable however... Korg + + 00:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Adding the full page titles and ISO 639 codes to the parameters rather defeats the purpose of the template, which is to make translating and cross-linking pages extremely easy. Besides simplicity being a generally good idea, much translation is done by anonymous or new users who most benefit from that simplicity. For example, try adding the parameters to make your suggestion possible, then compare the usage complexity with the current syntax.
One can easily translate titles and have very simple template usage by using redirects, as is done on Droit de disparaître. In most browsers this also allows you to easily see the ISO 639 code in the status bar by hovering over the links (especially since they're usually sorted alphabetically by code). —{admin} Pathoschild 03:11:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
One of the things I dislike about relying on redirects is that you lose the "you are here" effect (dead black and bold link) in the template that you get when it links directly to the page. I realize this is a relatively minor squibble, but I'm a web designer by day, and these are the things that just irk me. :) EVula // talk // 03:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmm... hiding it in the title attribute isn't too bad a compromise (though I do agree that it's rather unnoticeable). Right now it runs off of {{ill}}, and I'm not going to experiment on a live template; compare {{Megalomaniacal/sandbox}} to {{Megalomaniacal/sandbox2}}, which achieves the effect through brute coding rather than the elegant solution I'm sure to come up with for the final version. ;)
Comparing them side by side, I still don't find the fully displayed ISO codes that distracting; quite the opposite, as I find the black regular text helps to break up the grouping of links, and makes it less cluttered.
It'd be possible to code the final template in such a way as to have the codes easily turned off by a personal monobook.css modification (or, for that matter, have them turned off by default and use personal CSS tweaks to turn them back on)... that'd certainly allow both camps to have what they want. :) EVula // talk // 03:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

More pesky language template pushing

Conversation seems to have petered out (the fundraiser waging certainly doesn't help with that, either), but I'd like to start cranking on these. I still prefer the ISO-visible version ({{Megalomaniacal/sandbox}}) to the plain version ({{Megalomaniacal/sandbox2}}), as it allows for a greater amount of information available to the average user; those that dislike the code can simply turn it off with a monobook.css modification. It would also (probably) be possible to code it so that the code is displayed in both the template itself and in the hover code, so even those that chose to not show the codes would have them available if they happened to need it.

Does this seem like a good middle-ground road for the template? EVula // talk // // 20:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I still think the way the language codes are displayed adds a lot of clutter. Following is my attempt at a middle route, showing the language codes in a more concise form and delimiting with box formatting instead of with characters. This would have very little code overhead once the CSS was moved to the stylesheet, and usage would not change (so this could easily be implemented while we discuss more debated issues).
What do you think? —{admin} Pathoschild 20:53:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I like your CSS-based way of marking the breaks between the sections. Incorporating the ISO codes like that does shave a bit of space off the template; I'd say that it's a reasonable middle-ground between form and function. Just a little of tweaking:
Floating the edit link to the right (and removing the border) sets it apart from the body of the template a little bit more, and leaves the languages nice and open.
Something I've noticed in some templates, like {{List of Wikipedias/Languages}}, have "Languages" (or similar) in the page's native tongue. Personally, I find the template intuitive enough that we could probably drop the verbiage (especially since I'm pushing for a language-neutral template). I hate to wreck our freshly-found middle ground with another factor to consider, but what does everyone think? EVula // talk // // 21:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't really like the floated edit link, particularly since it floats outside the box in my browser. I didn't even notice it until I read your comment about it floating to the right. Some of the users translating pages probably don't know to look for two tangentially related symbols off to one side outside the box (even if they're the traditional symbols for us). Putting the link immediately after the last language makes it immediately visible even to new editors, and its position makes its purpose a little clearer. Further, the way it floats outside the box will conflict with other floating elements, particularly right-floated infoboxes.
I have no objection to leaving out the "in other languages" labels; the original purpose of the icon was to represent languages in a more multilingual and concise way. —{admin} Pathoschild 22:04:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Eep, the float should still be staying inside the box. I had no clue that the edit link was floating outside the box (which it shouldn't be doing). Sure enough, it shows up in my Mac version of Firefox (I'm using Safari)... hrm. I whole-heartedly agree that it should not be outside the box, and with that particular rendering glitch, I'm definitely retracting my suggestion.
I might try to work on a work-around to it, but for now, I think I'll just work on creating a fully-functional (and easily manipulated) template based on your above example. Another benefit I found over the existing template is that, for some pages, the link target is off-meta, which the current system (basepage/lang) doesn't support. EVula // talk // // 23:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll switch {{other languages}} to the new format, since we agree on at least that. :) —{admin} Pathoschild 23:49:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Law issue

I found on the page w:Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not saying that Wikipedia is under the Florida State law since the main server locates in the Florida? (1) So I'm wondering if this applied to other-languages Wikipedia, or just only the English Wikipedia? (2) I'm from Thai Wikipedia and would like to know if Thai law also applies. (3) I heard that there are other severs in Hollands and South Korea, does the laws there apply as well? Thank you. --Manop 17:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello. All Wikimedia databases (which contain the wiki content) are in Florida. I think there are some "squid caches" in other countries that perform various server tasks, but they don't host the content so that doesn't affect the legal situation of wikis.
So, only US law applies on all language wikis. Thai law does not apply to the Thai wiki, although it might apply to contributors from Thai. That said, There are some cases where foreign law will be important in US law, particularly in copyright (for example, the Uruguay Round Agreements Act). —{admin} Pathoschild 22:43:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you so much for the clarification. --Manop 03:49, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Wolof Wikiquote

Can someone stop the closure? I want to create articles, I speak Wolof. here. SF-Language 09:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia Update

Please to any who has the power to make changes in the multiligual portal of Wikipedia, I advise you to read this:

I am a user from the Tagalog Wikipedia and this Wikipedia has more than 10,000 since this day so please can you move the Tagalog link in the Wikipedia multilingual portal from +1,000 to +10,000. Thanks.--Felipe Aira 04:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations! I've updated the portal. Regards, Korg + + 03:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Where are the Site Notices gone

Our non roman script languages wiki projects are very much dependant on Site notice facility Which we do use to inform first time visiting users in guiding to link page which guides them how to install and use read and write our set of language fonts.

From en vilage pump I am given to understand site Notice facility is suspended for all wiki projects without any alternate facility available without any prior notice to any local wikipedia communities.

Can some one throw more light on this issue .

Mahitgar 17:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Sysop from Marathi Language Wiktionary

The Village Pump topic that Mahitgar is talking about is most likely en:Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Displaying some of the more exotic languages.... I, too, am curious about the sitenotice issue. EVula // talk // 17:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The site notices are automatically replaced by the new CentralNotice. It was only visible on the English Wikipedia at first for development and debugging, but it still disabled the site notices on other wikis. It should be visible everywhere now. Brion Vibber, the developer, hoped to make site notices work at the same time by today, though I'm not sure if he's succeeded yet. —{admin} Pathoschild 23:15:44, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Once the fundraiser stuff is done, will the original site notices be restored? On some of the more "exotic" language editions, there are often instructions on how to install fonts necessary to using the site, which is rather important (and the whole reason I posted the en.wp Village Pump topic in the first place). EVula // talk // // 16:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
I assume so. —{admin} Pathoschild 16:32:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, somewhat silly question, especially since I realized that I could still manually go to MediaWiki:Sitenotice on any wiki and get the original notice. *egg on face* EVula // talk // // 18:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I've put together an AJAX solution to the problem, if you want to display the site notice below the fundraiser box. —{admin} Pathoschild 05:16:45, 02 November 2007 (UTC)

Interwiki links

I am a temporary sysop on the Akan Wikipedia. Unfortunately, the interwiki link states Akana instead of Akan. How do I get this corrected?--Natsubee 15:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Please submit a request on bugzilla. Regards, Korg + + 20:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks.--Natsubee 15:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Spanish translation for Jimmy's video

There is a Spanish translation for Jimmy's video here: Meta talk:Babylon#Spanish translation for Jimmy's Video. Please add subtitles in Spanish with this or another translation. Thank you. --190.10.12.103 15:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC) (André Oliva - Talk page)

Subpages

Who would support building consensus on the formating of subpages, capitalization and otherwise? What would you support? --Emesee 16:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

What exactly are you referring to? EVula // talk // // 16:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)