Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Interslavic

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submitted verification final decision
Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code isv (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Interslavic Language name in English
Language name medžuslovjansky Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q148971 - item has currently the following values:
 Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality LTR Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL isv.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name Vikipedija "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace Razprava Vikipediji "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo File:Wikipedia-logo-v2-isv.svg This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone Europe "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit Phabricator task. It will include everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings. After creating the task, add a link to the comment.

Proposal[edit]

The Interslavic language recently got the ISO 639-3 code: [1]. There is already a wiki in this language ([2]), so at the very beginning it could serve as a basis for the Wikipedia project (on CC-BY-SA license). Interslavic language has a very engaged and grown community consisting 20.000 people in 2022 ([3]), so there is a big potential for this project. --Wojsław Brożyna (talk) 09:36, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Voting[edit]

In favour[edit]

  • I've been waiting for Interslavic to get an ISO 639-3 code and in the meantime have been making small contributions to their wiki as I learn the language. Will be nice to be able to have interwiki links with all the other languages including Interlingue which is the one I usually contribute to. Also in terms of raw activity I would put it squarely in second place now after Esperanto. Interslavic is here to stay. Mithridates (talk) 16:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interslavic fills a real political need for an interlanguage between people from different Slavic-speaking that isn't English or Russian. I don't natively speak a Slavic language, but I am learning Interslavic because in the UK we have Ukrainian refugees interacting with a significant existing population of Polish speakers, and there is a clear utility to being able to understand both communities better. It is clear that Interslavic is a notable development in intercultural exchange, just from the amount of growth it has experienced in the last few years alone. The award of an ISO 639 code is the last proof Wikipedia should need that this is a rapidly-growing community, and as such needs its own Wikipedia. --Medavox (talk) 21:52, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sounds good! Interslavic is one of the most active newer auxiliary languages and probably the most active zonelang (auxiliary language for a specific language family or region). Its quasi-Wikipedia at Miraheze has already more than 460 articles, which is a good start, especially since some of them are amazingly well developed. All speakers of Slavic languages are at least potential readers, and the step to potential contributor isn't very high. So I think there's considerable potential here and say this'll be a nice addition to the Wikipedia family! Krissie (talk) 16:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The community is very active online. The language is designed to be intelligible to speakers of various languages, which makes it have even more potential in terms of readership. --Мурад 97 (talk) 17:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Being one of the original authors of the language, I can of course only support this proposal. Our current wiki is mostly focused on Slavic subjects, but I think the main value of an Interslavic Wikipedia would be the fact that it can offer comprehensible information about any subject that is not necessary represented in the editions in individual Slavic languages. Let me just add that part of the user interface has already been translated into Interslavic, it would be helpful if it could somehow be transferred to Wikimedia. And one other issue that will need to be solved is the alphabet: Interslavic uses both Latin and Cyrillic (about 70:30, I would guess), but we'll have to figure out how to handle that (by writing everything in Latin and optionally transliterate it into Cyrillic, by allowing duplicate articles, etc.). IJzeren Jan (talk) 18:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the Serbian Wikipedia does the same so shouldn't be a stopper for Interslavic, I think. Though as far as I can tell it's all written in Cyrillic first, so maybe ISV would have to choose one or the other as you said. (Hopefully not though, I can't imagine it would be extremely hard to replicate what the wiki on Miraheze has done) Mithridates (talk) 07:25, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A few words from an academic teacher. I learned to speak Interslavic four years ago. I teach digital technology at an arts-focused institution (university level) in Poland. Among the students, there are many people from abroad. The lectures are conducted in Polish. For many years, I have encountered problems with students from abroad understanding some elements, phrases, or even words. Polish language is complex and complicated for many of them, and moreover, it has many nuances that are unclear to non-Slavic speakers, which are difficult to grasp through some logical sequence. To explain the complexities of the Polish language to my students from outside Poland (Netherlands, Germany, France, China, Turkey, Sweden, etc.), I am using Interslavic language, which is logical, simple, predictable. Moreover, it has all the necessary features to rely on them to explain the nuances of Polish. The students are thrilled. The most common comment for the last four years has been: "This explanation is game changing! Now I finally understand...". I think it's an excellent recommendation for the language itself. Jarek fx (talk) 21:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)Missing signature --Wojsław Brożyna (talk) 09:31, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Against[edit]

Discussion[edit]

  • I knew this was coming when I saw Interslavic got an ISO 639 code. I'm sort of concerned that it has a danger of becoming more like Europanto than a coherent interlanguage once it hits the general audience of Wikimedia, but that's not really my problem.--Prosfilaes (talk) 19:32, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, I am fully aware of that risk. But isn't that a problem that goes for many smaller language editions as well? In any case, it will require quite some good monitoring. Fortunately, by now there are plenty of people proficient at speaking and writing Interslavic and willing to take up the task. Mistakes can be fixed, but texts that have little or nothing in common with the grammar and dictionary of Interslavic will of course be deleted. To be quite honest, what I am more afraid of is an overload of oneliners of the type "X is a town in Y". IJzeren Jan (talk) 20:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I get that Interslavic is the only really viable constructed auxiliary language besides Esperanto, but how seriously is it really taken? Is it like Novial where anyone who speaks something in the relevant language family can understand it, but almost nobody actually uses it? Is it like Esperanto itself, being purely a linguistic subculture that is never spoken or written in a naturalistic context? Or are there actual serious uses outside of hobbyist circles? Dronebogus (talk) 03:34, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a language designed specifically for all Slavic people to understand it. There is a large number of people speaking and using the language, and intended usage is not only to allow people of different Slavic nations to speak between each other more fluently, but also to provide people a unified content they can read or hear. One of the proposed usage is tourist sightseeing guide speaking, providing informations about the cultural heritage in Slavic countries. It could be an alternative to the standard English language being used in a lot of sightseeing trips specifically for all Slavic tourists, where the sightseeing guide gets paid for this position (a normal job). This is also an opportunity for employers to provide employment for abroad citizens, without the need to use English by both parties. There is also literature in this language. Polda18 (talk • my contributions) 14:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Could you provide links to sources discussing this? Dronebogus (talk) 10:46, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Esperanto is linguistically much worse than many other international auxiliary languages. Interesting that you want to close down other international auxiliary languages Wikipedias and agitate for Esperanto. Ido, Interlingua and Interlingue are used by large communinties. There is a rich literature and active magazines. I think your real intention is to eliminate the competitors of Esperanto, which is quite dubious motivation. Valodnieks (talk) 16:25, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Whatever "linguistically much worse than" means, Esperanto is the only conlang Wikipedia that simply is a useful and used encyclopedia. You can cast aspirations at other users, but only speakers of Ido, Interlingua or Interlingue consider themselves competitors of Esperanto. Speakers of Esperanto tend to consider English a competitor, and non-conlangers tend to think only in terms of languages like Spanish, English and Chinese.--Prosfilaes (talk) 14:41, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Esperanto is the only conlang Wikipedia that simply is a useful and used encyclopedia"
    If that is true, then we do need another language that will fill in the void. Also Interslavic was never intending to compete with Esperanto. Interslavic is designed to be intelligible for all Slavic nations without the need to learn the language. And as a native Czech speaker, let me tell you that I do understand pretty much everything. Whatever words I do not know, I can guess from the context, and that's something you won't get from Esperanto. If you want to understand Esperanto, you have to learn that language. It was intended to be used as an alternative international language, but failed at the core concept. While it had the same idea as Interslavic, the authors failed to realize just how much diverse Romanic and Germanic languages are from each other. However if you look at Slavic languages, you'll find them really similar. English speakers find it difficult to distinguish Western Slavic languages from the Eastern ones. Interslavic highlights these similarities. Where Esperanto failed, Interslavic may succeed. Granted, it's not on the international level of Esperanto, but at least if your native language is Slavic, or you know one of the Slavic languages, you won't have much difficult time to understand Interslavic. Speaking or writing, you of course will have to learn the language. Plus, learning Interslavic may make it easier for you to learn any other national Slavic language, because you'd have the basis for it already. I don't know how Esperanto can help you learn English, German, French, etc. It's a fundamentally different language. Esperanto tries to mix between Germanic and Romanic languages, and Germanic and Romanic languages are very far away from each other ín terms of intelligibility. Even Germanic languages alone are very different from each other. English and German languages have very different grammar. Romanic languages are more similar to each other than Germanic languages, but still very diverse in grammar. French isn't much similar to Spanish for example. And if you want to compare between Romanic and Germanic languages, very different. And that's where Esperanto fails. Nobody wants to learn a full blown language just so you can understand it. English is already fairly well established international language. Esperanto is cool for linguistic enthusiasts, but that's about it. Interslavic on the other hand may help foreing speakers to better socialize with Slavic speakers without them having to learn English or other language. There is a real potential for Interslavic to help people. Esperanto is only accepted because it's internationally well recognized, but realistically speaking, it has no real use outside the Esperanto speaking community. Polda18 (talk • my contributions) 21:20, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Interslavic is mostly relying on Czech as source. As all Slavic languages are mutually understandable to a certain level the question is whether you need a constructed interzonal slavic language. For speakers of other language groups Interslavic is not really easier than any other existing slavic language. Macedonian and Bulgarian for example nearly dropped completely the case endings for substantives. Grammar in Interslavic is much more complex in this field. The problem for the Wikipedia of Interslavic will be to have enough people who really write in Interslavic and not mix it with their native or preferred slavic language. I checked the dictionaries of Interslavic in internet and I do not find them really complete, but of course you can form words easily of existing slavic languages. Anyway Interslavic has a well established community and so I do not oppose a Wikipedia for Interslavic. Valodnieks (talk) 22:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You are wrong about one thing here: Interslavic is not relying on Czech anything more than on any other Slavic language. I have actually seen Russians criticising Interslavic for being "too similar to Russian", or Polish for it being "too similar to Polish". It also depends on who is writing: Interslavic written by a Russian is bound to be slightly different from Interslavic written by a Pole, Croat or Bulgarian, just like there are differences between American and British English. That's even part of the design. Of course, contributions in some kind of improvised half-Polish/half-Russian, written by people who don't really know Interslavic, won't be acceptable, but a few mistakes here and there can always be corrected. That's normal for any language, I'd say. As for the dictionary, Interslavic currently has ca. 18,500 unique words, but don't forget that there are tons of "virtual vocabulary": a person writing an article about speleology won't need to think twice about the word for it. Besides, the principles for coining vocabulary are laid out pretty clearly, so anyone could do what the dictionary team is doing. IJzeren Jan (talk) 23:13, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Nobody wants to learn a full blown language? Surely Interslavic shouldn't have an ISO code if it's not a full blown language. Esperanto is currently used between people of all native tongues to communicate. Interslavic has no use outside the (currently much smaller) Interslavic community, except as a pidgin Slavic language. It won't help foreign speakers socialize with Slavic speakers; why learn Interslavic when you can learn the language of the people you're talking to, or a world language with a body of literature. (And anywhere I could use Interslavic, any problems getting by in Russian would be political, not linguistic.)--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:40, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And the Esperanto Wikipedia is probably of more use than Interslavic would ever be; there's possibly some speaker of Rundi (and Burundi is apparently one of the top ten Esperanto speaking countries) who would be forced to depend on the Esperanto Wikipedia, but most people who speak a Slavic tongue have a perfectly good Wikipedia in their native tongue, with the exceptions of Silesian speakers (who speak German), Sorbian speakers (who speak Polish), and speakers of some Serbo-Croatian languages/dialects (who speak Serbo-Croatian.) The Slavic world is all rich enough to have enough Internet connectivity to have decent Wikipedias in their native languages.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd begin at the ISO code request, which actually contains links and mentions of some content and literature in Interslavic language. It's mostly translations of well known literature from various Slavic countries. Polda18 (talk • my contributions) 11:52, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Interslavic is also a good place to start. Lots of information can also be found here. IJzeren Jan (talk) 12:22, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Incubator[edit]

As noted above by Wojsław Brożyna, Interslavic already has a wiki outside Wikimedia space at https://isv.miraheze.org/, founded seventeen years ago to serve as a Wikipedia clone. It has a working transliteration mechanism, several other modules, and much of the user interface has already been translated to Interslavic. At present, it has 470 articles, most of which are fairly decent in size. In the meantime, however, Interslavic has also been added to the Incubator. While I am not saying there's anything wrong with that, I also notice that people have started copying articles from our own wiki to the Incubator manually. And that is NOT a good idea, because that way their entire history (in some cases going back to 2007) is lost. Hence, please allow me to ask two questions:

  1. It is really necessary to go through the Incubator stage, or would it be possible to treat the wiki at Miraheze as a valid alternative? Unless I am mistaken, a similar thing happened in the case of Toki Pona. Once isv.wikipedia.org has been approved and created, it will be easy to import everything from Miraheze, including page histories.
  2. If that won't be possible, would it be possible to import the contents of isv.miraheze.org to the Incubator, including modules, user interface, etc.?

Any help in the matter will be much appreciated! Thanks, IJzeren Jan (talk) 18:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, I'd love to ask @Jon Harald Søby that why they enabled incubator:Wp/isv for contributions. Shouldn't this thing be reviewed carefully? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:06, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm certainly not saying enabling incubator:Wp/isv was a bad idea. Once Interslavic at last got its ISO 639-3 code, it was to be expected, because many people have been waiting for this for years. But since our Wikipedia clone at Miraheze already has a working infrastructure and quite some content, it would be best to import all of it to the Incubator first and take it from there. It's just that I have no idea how complicated it would be to import 500 articles, 1700 Wikimedia texts, talk pages, etc. That's why I was wondering whether skipping the Incubator could be a possibility too. IJzeren Jan (talk) 17:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@IJzeren Jan According to current Incubator policy, constructed languages are only permitted for testing if their RFLs are judged eligible, where here, it isn't yet. Also for such languages to be eligible, there must have a reasonable degree of recognition as determined by discussion. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 21:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you sure about that? All I read at incubator:Policy is that a valid ISO 639 code is required, plus the following sentence: "You can start a test language of the projects mentioned above, regardless of whether you have a request at Meta[1], though it is recommended to ask first for confirmation through the page Incubator:Requests for starting a test[2]. It is not required to have a proposal at Meta, but without one, your test will not be able to get an own wiki." I am of course familiar with the sentence you quote, but unless I am gravely mistaken, it as a condition for having a Wikipedia edition, not for having a test project in the Incubator. And by the way, there are quite a few languages on the Incubator that don't even have a request at Meta, or had their request rejected. The way I understand it, the verification process by the LangCom, work in the Incubator and work on Translatewiki.net can go parallelly. IJzeren Jan (talk) 23:02, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. By the time the language is accepted on Translatewiki, we could have a working infrastructure on Incubator. Just for a note, there is already a request on Translatewiki for adding the language, and it even has a corresponding Phabricator request and Gerrit patch made. Polda18 (talk • my contributions) 12:16, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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