IRC office hours/Office hours 2010-09-16

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[09:51am] sgardner: Hey folks, good morning :-)

[09:51am] sgardner: Hey before we officially begin, can I ask a quick question of Deror?

[09:51am] sgardner: (Hi Deror.)

[09:52am] jowen_ is now known as jowen.

[09:52am] sgardner: Maybe Deror's not actually paying attention: I will get him offline later.

[09:52am] Theo10011: Hi Sue

[09:52am] sgardner: (off-IRC I mean)

[09:52am] Mglovesfun:hi

[09:53am] StevenW: We'll officially start in a few minutes.

[09:53am] StevenW: Just a reminder that these chats are publicly logged and the logs are posted on meta.

[09:53am] StevenW: Also,

[09:53am] StevenW: There is no defined format to this chat – I’ll ask Sue to give us a brief update, and then you’re welcome to ask her any questions or comment. Feel free to join in, please!

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[09:54am] sgardner: I don't have a prepared update or anything. Some of the things we've been working on / doing at the office: we just hired Cyn Skyberg as Chief Talent and Culture Officer. We just hired Steven Walling as our first Fellow! :-) I was in NY recently for their (second, I believe) wiki-conference. And we're getting ready now for the next board meeting, which I can talk a little about if you want.

[09:54am] sgardner: How's that to start?

[09:55am] sgardner: (And congratulations Steven :-)

[09:55am] StevenW: Thanks Sue. :)

[09:55am] StevenW: And that's a great start.

[09:55am] Deror: Hi Sue

[09:55am] sgardner:Hey Deror :-)

[09:56am] guillom: among other news, we're preparing to roll out a pilot of article feedback tool on 400 public policy articles on the English Wikipedia, and we're also preparing for a hackathon for mediawiki developers in DC at the end of October

[09:56am] sgardner: thanks Guillaume.

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[09:57am] StevenW: Yes, there have been lots of great updates on the Wikimedia tech blog (

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[09:57am] geniice: TBA?

[09:58am] StevenW: Yes geniice?

[09:58am] StevenW:We're getting ready to start the chat with Sue right about...well, sort of now.

[09:58am] StevenW: :)

[09:59am] geniice: Sue Gardner, the Executive Director of the Wikimedia Foundation, will

[09:59am] geniice: be having office hours this Thursday (September 16) at 17:00 UTC

[09:59am] geniice: (10:00 PT, 13:00 ET, 19:00 CEST) on IRC in #wikimedia-office.

[09:59am] sgardner: Oh I've just realized we started early, oops.

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[09:59am] StevenW: Yes, we did.

[09:59am] sgardner: Hi Geni.

[10:00am] StevenW: Alright, now we can make it official. ;)

[10:00am] geniice: whats the meta channel?

[10:01am] StevenW: If you mean the channel for Meta on IRC, I don't know if there is one. I assume #wikimedia would be it.

[10:01am] sgardner: So, what do you guys want to talk about?

[10:01am] StevenW: Yes, please feel free to open up with any questions you have for Sue!

[10:02am] Theo10011: So Ms. Skyberg's position as the cultural officer

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[10:03am] Theo10011: is there any projects planned for this year

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[10:03am] Cirt: hello.

[10:03am] Cirt: :)

[10:03am] StevenW: Hi Cirt, we just started.

[10:04am] Cirt: kewlness, talking about what?

[10:04am] sgardner: Hey Theo, was that the end of your question, or are you still typing?

[10:04am] sgardner: (Hi Cirt.)

[10:04am] StevenW: Cirt: It's open chat with Sue right now, but Theo just asked a question.

[10:04am] Theo10011: thats about it sue

[10:04am] Cirt: Hi sgardner. :)

[10:04am] Theo10011: i was wondering if there is anything planned for this year

[10:04am] sgardner: Okay, thanks Theo.

[10:04am] StevenW: Theo10011: You mean projects by Cyn Skyberg or just projects in general?

[10:04am] Theo10011: cultural activity

[10:05am] Theo10011: by Cyn

[10:05am] StevenW: Great

[10:05am] Theo10011: sawry should have elaborated

[10:05am] StevenW: NP

[10:05am] sgardner: So, let me say something first about the history of the position -- why it's a CTCO job and not a CHRO job (which is what we originally set out to hire).

[10:06am] sgardner: So: originally we planned to hire a CHRO, because we have a lot of recruiting planned, and some of it will be particularly complex & kind of challenging (i.e., Zack's big open community call, and so forth). So we knew we needed to upwards-prioritize HR so we'd be able to get all the hiring done that we had planned.

[10:06am] You were promoted to operator by ChanServ.

[10:07am] sgardner: But the more we interviewed HR people (and we interviewed lots of GREAT people) -- the more obvious it became to us that typical HR people would be pretty lost in our context. They would have a really hard time understanding the Wikimedia Foundation's relationship with the community, its committment to transparency, and all that.

[10:07am] sgardner: And we realized that we couldn't absorb an HR person who was fairly conventional, because "culture" falls within the HR bailiwick, and so having someone who didn't understand, and couldn't embrace, our culture -- would be awful.

[10:08am] Cirt: bbl, have fun folks! ;)

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[10:08am] sgardner: So we changed the title and the job spec to make the culture aspect more visible and more important, and to also make "talent" a key aspect of the job.

[10:08am] sgardner: So that's the history of the position itself.

[10:08am] Theo10011: and I assume Ms. Skyberg's experience with second life lends itself well to our community structure

[10:09am] sgardner: Yes, exactly! Really, I'm sure the people at Second Life ---their motivations for participating, their values, etc.--- are very different from us.

[10:09am] sgardner: But even so, the basics of the relationships have lots of similarities.

[10:09am] sgardner: So yes, that background will help her a lot.

[10:09am] Theo10011: I agree

[10:10am] Theo10011: one thing that I wanted to bring up was.....

[10:10am] Theo10011: I wonder if Mr. owen is here

[10:10am] jowen: Yes

[10:10am] Theo10011: theres been some discussion about a WIkimania committee

[10:10am] sgardner: (I found myself posing lots of scenario questions to her in the hiring process, and where other candidates were struggling to even understand the question, she immediately knew what I was talking about, and had relevant experiences to share.)

[10:11am] Theo10011: Seddon proposed the committee and tried to get things moving

[10:11am] Theo10011: I am wondering if you have any thoughts about it

[10:11am] jowen: Well I personally think that a committee is a great idea.

[10:11am] StevenW: Relevant page on Meta is Wikimania/Advisory Group

[10:11am] Theo10011: A wikimania community was discussed on the mailing list a while ago

[10:12am] jowen: We need to find a place to hold the information from past years and create a better process for not only selecting location but also helping planning teams to develop the conference.

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[10:12am] jowen: This should be a volunteer committee with some support from WMF as requested.

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[10:13am] geniice: QUESTION “When I worked at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the people I hired were quite different from the ones I hire today. “

[10:13am] geniice:

[10:13am] geniice: So how does Robert Harris fit into this?

[10:13am] vvv: Is it still office hour?

[10:13am] jowen: I hope we find some interested and community members to join the committee and start to put into place better support systems for future bids and planning teams.

[10:13am] sgardner: (I'll answer that Geni, when James is done answering Theo's question.)

[10:13am] Theo10011: started a few minutes ago vvv

[10:13am] StevenW: Yes, thanks Theo

[10:14am] sgardner: K I will answer Geni's question now.

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[10:15am] StevenW: Hi darkoneko, were about 15 mins into office hour now.

[10:16am] sgardner: The first thing is, I haven't hired Robert. He's working with us as a consultant on a time-limited project. But really, I guess what's more important is that when I said "the people I hired were quite different from the ones I hired today," that wasn't a totally absolutist black-and-white statement. There are certainly people I have worked wtih at the CBC who'd do fine at Wikimedia, and there are folks at Wikimedia who'd do fine at the

[10:16am] sgardner: CBC. What I was saying was that generally, the characteristics I prioritize in hiring are somewhat different. There are also some similarities, and of course nobody is 100% fitting into a "profile" anyway.

[10:16am] sgardner: I did want to say something about Robert's project too. Does everyone know, he's the person working on the "controversial content" project for me and the board?

[10:16am] StevenW: Meta page is "2010 Wikimedia Study of Controversial Content"

[10:17am] sgardner: Thanks Steven.

[10:17am] thedj: yes, i was wondering how that was going.

[10:17am] sgardner: I wanted to give a little update, which is that I believe later today, Robert is planning to publish the first chunk of the draft version of the study, for people's comments and input.

[10:17am] Theo10011: I only know from what I read on the foundation-l mailing list

[10:17am] sgardner: I think there will be a note to foundation-l once it's published.

[10:17am] Theo10011: great

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[10:18am] sgardner: If anybody has any questions about it, feel free :-)

[10:18am] sgardner: (And Steven, am I right it'll be published today -- like, in four hours or so?)

[10:18am] StevenW: That is my understanding

[10:18am] sgardner: K thanks.

[10:18am] thedj: sgardner: well since we are on the job aspect. any idea how mr. harris has so far experienced working with the community ?

[10:18am] sgardner: That's a great question!

[10:19am] thedj: i know we can be a bit "aggressive" at times for outsiders :D

[10:19am] Ziko__: actually, i once considered writin robert harris, but i could only say that i hardly ever met controversial content disputes. its is always a small number of issues everybody is repeatingly talking about

[10:19am] StevenW: For Ziko and anyone else with similar thoughts...

[10:20am] StevenW: I would definitely read and add your thoughts to the talk page for what they'll be publishing today

[10:20am] sgardner: Yeah, it's true (that we can be aggressive). And I was super-curious to see what his response to the community would be. Because he is from a very gentle, tactful, diplomatic, indirect culture (people from CBC would probably laugh to hear that, but relatively speaking, it is true).

[10:20am] sgardner: But

[10:20am] geniice: thedj well I met his daughter. Poor kid. Me and David Gerard talking about what's in wikiedia's darker corners. eh I'm sure with proper therapy she will recover.

[10:21am] sgardner: What surprised me was, he has been really loving his experience talking with community members and reading the wikis. He's read literally hundreds of wiki pages (policies, discussions, essays, and so forth) and as he's done that, it looks to me like his admiration for the Wikimedia community has really grown. He always liked Wikipedia and admired the work people here do, but I think directly engaging with the people here has increased

[10:21am] sgardner: his respect for you all, rather than harming it.

[10:21am] thedj: geniice: you guys sure know how to play the ladies :D

[10:21am] sgardner: That made me really happy.

[10:21am] sgardner: Geni, LOL.

[10:22am] sgardner: Dory's tough; she can take it.

[10:22am] sgardner: Robert told me though that he wants extra compensation for all the work he had to do cataloguing thousands of images of penises, LOL.

[10:22am] thedj: sgardner: that's good to hear.

[10:22am] Theo10011: lol

[10:22am] thedj: well the thing before that :D

[10:22am] sgardner: Yeah :-)

[10:22am] Ziko__: i am now busy with comparing policies in different language versions - i actually do not know what are policies and standards in many language versions.

[10:23am] sgardner: Ziko: you mean, on Wikipedia language versions?

[10:23am] Ziko__: +sgardner: tell Robert to use hotcat :-)

[10:23am] thedj: sgardner: has it giving you/foundation new insights into working with outside contracters ?

[10:23am] geniice: * Results 1 - 20 of 989 for penis

[10:23am] geniice: I question thousands

[10:23am] Ziko__: yes, wp language versions, what are the rules for deleting articles and so on

[10:23am] thedj: s/giving/given

[10:24am] StevenW: Why don't we take DJ and Ziko's questions one at a time.

[10:24am] sgardner: Thedj: I've had quite a bit of experience working with outside contractors at Wikimedia -- Bridgespan, various lawyers, Eugene Eric Kim, various facilitators, and so forth. What I've learned from that is, not surprisingly, we are a really difficult client.

[10:25am] sgardner: Because our culture is so unusual -- the high level of transparency, the goal of achieving consensus rather than being conventionally hierarchical, and just the fact that there is so much for people to learn before they can engage usefully with us.

[10:26am] StevenW: Eugene actually is writing a series of blog posts about just this very issue -- what it's like working with Wikimedia -- that I think everyone would find very informative.

[10:26am] StevenW:

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[10:26am] sgardner: So the lesson from that is (I think) -- we need to pick contractors really carefully. A few great consultants (that ideally we can return to multiple times, so the learning curve is amortized over multiple projects) is good ...... and particularly open, curious contractors is also good.

[10:27am] sgardner: It's hard for us to work with contractors who have a very fixed, set way of doing things, and who don't want to adapt. That kind of thing.

[10:27am] sgardner: I am really glad about Eugene's posts.

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[10:27am] sgardner: During the strategy project, I'm sure he thought & learned tons of interesting things, and it would be a shame to have that lost.

[10:27am] sgardner: Hey Gerard!

[10:27am] GerardM-: Hoi Sue :)

[10:27am] sgardner: :-)

[10:27am] thedj: ah yes, i had seen Eugene's posts on planet, but had not yet time to read them.

[10:28am] sgardner: He has one coming up I think next week, that he says might be a little sparky/provocative :-)

[10:28am] GerardM-:<grin> I did read it noticably

[10:28am] sgardner: Yeah -- did you really learn from Eugene about Indians over-reading enWP, Gerard?

[10:29am] sgardner: I was surprised, because that information's been available from Erik Z's stats for a while, so if people don't know it, I wonder if there's sufficient visibility for Erik's work?

[10:29am] Theo10011: I think the Q3 stats also put a bit of dampener on gerard

[10:29am] GerardM-: to some extend yes ... I am also learning that the details of traffic from India are seen as USA traffic

[10:29am] sgardner: [By over-reading, I just mean that inside India, the vast majority of Wikipedia readership is of the English version.)

[10:29am] Theo10011: ya 94%

[10:29am] thedj: always difficult to get the useful info out of so much statistics out there.

[10:30am] GerardM-: this explains why so many Indian languages are read so much in the USA

[10:30am] thedj: i was really surprised by his recent post that 48% of the edits are from Europe btw. I knew it was much, but THAT much ?

[10:30am] Theo10011: as I suggested would be at wikimania

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[10:30am] sgardner: Thedj: yeah, that was really interesting.

[10:30am] Theo10011: Gerard the edits stats also point to that trend

[10:30am] sgardner: Sorry -- Theo, Gerard, what trend?

[10:31am] Theo10011: from India, the indian languages

[10:31am] Theo10011: they also received negligible traffic from india

[10:31am] sgardner: You mean, that inside India people tend to read/edit enWP. But what were you saying about the United States and Indian languages?

[10:31am] Theo10011: say ~5%

[10:31am] Theo10011: thats another issue

[10:31am] Sky2042_afk: thedj: There's more people living in Europe than in North America...

[10:31am] Theo10011: some ISP might be using proxies

[10:32am] Theo10011: so the results might be faulty

[10:32am] GerardM-: Traffic from India shows up as USA traffic because of proxies

[10:32am] darkoneko: argh

[10:32am] sgardner: Ah. Thanks, I get it.

[10:32am] Theo10011: allegedly

[10:32am] • darkoneko missed 30 min

[10:32am] sgardner: darkoneko: ?

[10:32am] sgardner: (Hiya.)

[10:32am] thedj: does anyone know if those 48% of edits included bots ? cause that would be logical, with much of the bots operating from europe.

[10:32am] darkoneko: hello :)

[10:32am] StevenW: That's what we have the log for, darkoneko :)

[10:32am] StevenW: It'll be posted on Meta as usual.

[10:32am] Theo10011: hmm might need to look into thedj

[10:32am] darkoneko: true

[10:32am] Theo10011: the stats didnt have that breakdown

[10:33am] sgardner: Erik told me yesterday there are new stats showing participation as down.

[10:33am] sgardner: (Number of "active editors." 5+ edits/mo.)

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[10:33am] Theo10011: from somewhere in specific or generally?

[10:33am] geniice: 350 million people in europe and more history per square inch that anywhere else

[10:34am] sgardner: The total number. I think he said the total number (which is around 97K I believe) is at its lowest level since late 2006.

[10:34am] sgardner: I haven't checked the numbers yet, but I will today.

[10:34am] StevenW: Hi mikelifeguard. We're talking about stats right now, but feel free to ask a question if you have one.

[10:34am] thedj: summer is always bad for us. autumn and spring are our key growth areas traditionally

[10:34am] GerardM-: Sue shared at research about it having to be fun .. this is imho the way to go

[10:34am] Theo10011: I went through them for the signpost

[10:34am] mikelifeguard: StevenW: Thanks, but I'm just listening, I think. I've "retired"

[10:34am] GerardM-: it is also from autumn that other languages start to do better

[10:34am] sgardner: thedj: That's true. Still, it is lower than 2009, 2008, 2007 summers :-(

[10:35am] thedj: sgardner: yeah we are definetly drawing in less fresh blood

[10:35am] Theo10011:

[10:35am] sgardner: Yep. We need to ramp up stuff like the Campus Ambassadors program!

[10:35am] sgardner: People want to learn to edit; they just need some coaching and support.

[10:35am] thedj: still with 2007 being the top year, and an average "life-span" of 4 years in project participation (in my experience with other online projects). it's not totally unexpected either.

[10:35am] GerardM-: Sue how about such programs abroad

[10:35am] Theo10011: plus there is also the theory......

[10:35am] Ziko__: sgardner: there will be these bookshelf brochures. What will happen later with the pdfs - will the WMF print brochures itself?

[10:36am] GerardM-: it would do great in Albania

[10:36am] sgardner: Speaking of which -- the bookshelf project is starting to deliver its introductory materials!

[10:36am] Theo10011: that edits are going to go down.......

[10:36am] sgardner: woo, ziko: overlap :-)

[10:36am] Ziko__: Yes, indeed

[10:36am] Theo10011: the focus is on refining and quality now

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[10:36am] sgardner: Steven, do you happen to know the plan for dissminating the bookshelf materials?

[10:36am] StevenW: I don't.

[10:36am] Ziko__: in german schulprojekt we are now preparing teaching aids and presentations, so i am in the mood and flow

[10:37am] sgardner: And Theo: yeah. I think that focus on quality is somewhat off-point for the small language versions. it makes sense for the mature ones, but the smaller ones need to focus on growth.

[10:37am] StevenW: My general understanding is that the plan is not to have the WMF be the sole or primary disseminator of any materials, but that we're creating them for others to use where they want to.

[10:37am] guillom: I think Aradhana (the project manager for the bookshelf) wants to send copies of the bookshelf materials to the chapters

[10:37am] thedj: but deliverables on bookshelf are approaching ? that is good.

[10:37am] Theo10011: I agree, I was providing a reasoning for the decline on en wp

[10:37am] sgardner: (I have asked James to go ask Aradhna when the bookshelf materials will be released/publicized.)

[10:37am] sgardner: And the videos are done too!

[10:38am] sgardner: I think Jay plans to start putting them on Commons next week.

[10:38am] sgardner: (These are the videos that were shot at Wikimania, with people talking about why they edit.)

[10:38am] Theo10011: oh wow

[10:38am] GerardM-: I understand Siebrand is going to prepare some videos about translatewiki

[10:38am] StevenW: I have seen a sneak peek of them. They are great!

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[10:38am] Theo10011: when ca we see them?

[10:38am] sgardner: You are in them Steven!

[10:38am] Ziko__: (good show)

[10:38am] mikelifeguard: Anyone know if the Wikimania videos are up yet?

[10:38am] StevenW: As is Theo, I think... :)

[10:38am] sgardner: (You're in one, anyway. With the opening line!)

[10:38am] GerardM-: they are not

[10:38am] Theo10011: yeth I iz in it

[10:39am] sgardner: Have you seen them yet Theo?

[10:39am] Theo10011: no

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[10:39am] jowen: For the bookshelf material distribution and dissemination a letter is being drafted and hopefully will go out to the chapters this evening. A blog post will also be sent in the near future about the materials.

[10:39am] thedj: bookshelf started in october 2009 right ? and really picking up steam last may if i remember correctly ?

[10:39am] darkoneko: thedj > (a bit late) actually, I asked Erik on the post and he said that bot edit were filtered out

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[10:39am] sgardner: They are awesome, seriously. When I watch them, I get chills. Sometimes I tear up a little. Srsly.

[10:39am] Theo10011: and if I recall it was after the night we waited for the sun to come up on the bridge

[10:39am] thedj: darkoneko: thx for checking

[10:39am] GerardM-: do we have ideas on how to deal with countries like Myanmar ?

[10:39am] Theo10011: I might look a bit hungover

[10:39am] guillom: as a sidenote, I'm also working on the licensing tutorial for Commons, and we're hoping to be able to print it as a poster or a leaflet as an added bonus.

[10:40am] mikelifeguard: d'awwwwwww, sgardner is such a softie :D

[10:40am] • mikelifeguard passes the kleenex

[10:40am] darkoneko: took me a bit of time to read the backlog :)

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[10:40am] Theo10011: lol

[10:40am] sgardner: Don't mock me! I am not at all sentimental; I surprised even myself :-) But it made Jelly Helm (the guy who made the videos) very happy :-)

[10:40am] Theo10011: and Jelly knows his stuff

[10:41am] sgardner: This is Jelly's core competency, as they say. He did a really super job.

[10:41am] Theo10011: I am looking forward to seeing them

[10:41am] sgardner: Theo: you don't look hungover. Happily. You all look really earnest and serious :-)

[10:41am] Theo10011: aww

[10:41am] mikelifeguard: I'm glad to hear it, I look forward to seeing the final product. I hope they will be good outreach tools

[10:41am] sgardner: Seriously, they are lovely. I showed them at the wikiconference NY, and they got a positive response.

[10:42am] Ziko__: translation will be tough, though

[10:42am] Theo10011: I wonder would they be uploaded on youtube?

[10:42am] GerardM-: it would be good marketing

[10:42am] sgardner: I think they will go on Commons, and on YouTube in high def.

[10:42am] Theo10011: on the foundation account,

[10:42am] GerardM-: same as for the Wikimania videos

[10:42am] Theo10011: I suggested it a while ago

[10:42am] guillom: by the way, the PDF for the "welcome to Wikipedia" master document from the Bookshelf is available at

[10:42am] sgardner: I will blog about them, and we should all share them around however we can. Via the Facebook group, stuff like that.

[10:42am] sgardner: Oh thanks Guillaume, that's great.

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[10:43am] StevenW: Speaking of it...would anyone be interested in a quick recap of how the latest NYC wikiconference went?

[10:43am] Theo10011: nice, bright snappy presentation

[10:43am] Ziko__: i like the welcome to wikipedia very much, aradhanar put a lot of efforts in it.

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[10:43am] sgardner: LOL, Steven, I was going to say yes, go for it. But you weren't there, so I think you mean me to do it :-)

[10:43am] sgardner: Is Sage here? He was there too.

[10:43am] GerardM-: StevenW that would be nice to have in a blog

[10:44am] ragesoss: Hi!

[10:44am] thedj: didn't sage already blog on that ?

[10:44am] sgardner: The NY chapter should blog about it.

[10:44am] sgardner: Hi Sage!

[10:44am] ragesoss: I'm in a meeting right now, but I'm here.

[10:44am] sgardner: Do you want to recap the NY conference a little?

[10:44am] sgardner: (You have to talk about Cary's song. Which, now that I think about it, also made me cry. So maybe I am a huge softie.)

[10:44am] ragesoss: I can't right now.

[10:44am] sgardner: okay, I will. But I will just talk about Cary's song.

[10:44am] Theo10011: BTW will anyone be attending Mozilla's drumbeat festival

[10:44am] ragesoss: :D

[10:44am] darkoneko: cary's song... ? w..what ?

[10:45am] Theo10011: they have dedicated space for wikipedia

[10:45am] sgardner: Theo: yeah, Zack is going. And SJ. And I think Kat?

[10:45am] GerardM-: <grin> how do you like the idea of Gnash being localised at ... it is the free Flash implementation

[10:45am] Theo10011: oh noice

[10:45am] GerardM-: it is part of blogging about visiting Albania\

[10:45am] sgardner: Here, I'll tell you about Cary's song. I wish I had a link to it. James, maybe you can check Sage's recap to the staff list, and see if there's a link there.

[10:45am] ragesoss: There's no link there.

[10:46am] ragesoss: I'm not sure if/where it got uploaded.

[10:46am] ragesoss: (not Commons, for copyright reasons)

[10:46am] sgardner: Basically: when we first started having the 'controversial content' discussion, someone (or some someones) wrote parody lyrics for the Red Hot Chili Peppers song Californication, making it something like Commons Pornification. I think I have that a little wrong, LOL, someone please correct me if so. And

[10:47am] darkoneko: oh god

[10:47am] sgardner: Cary sang it karaoke-style, as one of the lightning talks. And it was GORGEOUS: he is a terrific singer, and it was ridiculously funny. I had tears streaming down my face.

[10:47am] sgardner: There is video.

[10:47am] darkoneko: I need to see that :)

[10:47am] sgardner: Some guy gave me his business card so I could get it later.

[10:47am] rubin16 left the chat room.

[10:47am] sgardner: It is LOVELY.

[10:48am] StevenW: This is priceless.

[10:48am] StevenW: That*

[10:48am] sgardner: What else: I met Risker and NYBrad for the very first time, which was super. Clay Shirky spoke, and was wonderful as always. And there were lots of good talks and workshops, including a very good one by NYBrad on BLPs.

[10:48am] Theo10011: sounds like a riot

[10:48am] Theo10011: I meant the californication parody

[10:49am] Chaoticfluffy: It was Commons Fornication

[10:49am] Ziko__: sgardner: there are theses bricks about wikipedia editing with 500 pages or so (broughton, ayers isn't there need for text book, less than that, more than a brochure?

[10:49am] mikelifeguard: ha! perfect xD

[10:49am] darkoneko: I'm pretty curious about the community fellowship program, is it on-topic enough for tonight ? (when we're finished with common porn :)

[10:49am] StevenW: Theo10011: To answer your question from earlier, I know Zack has tentative plans to go, though it may be derailed by an important all-staff meeting.

[10:49am] sgardner: James just found a link to the lyrics!

[10:49am] jowen: For your entertainment

[10:50am] darkoneko: yay

[10:50am] sgardner: Thank you James! Now we just need the actual performance.

[10:50am] Theo10011: hoohoo

[10:50am] mikelifeguard: Ziko__: Yes, the bookshelf is meant to be creating textbooks on the subject. I've suggested they should use our textbook wiki, which already has started work on exactly the same subject matter. But I was ignored many times over.

[10:50am] Theo10011: now I just need the original song playing in the background

[10:51am] mikelifeguard: Ziko__: There's nothing wrong with brochures, but more substantial works are needed as well.

[10:51am] sgardner: We could all take a moment and just imagine it :-)

[10:51am] Ziko__: mikelifeguard: ah! it is not on the list of deliverables

[10:51am] Theo10011: thanks Steven

[10:51am] mikelifeguard: Ziko__: Then they might have moved the goalposts :\

[10:51am] mikelifeguard: Ziko__: What list is that?

[10:51am] meganrhernandez joined the chat room.

[10:51am] Ziko__: there more different brochures and text books, the better, as there are so many different learners

[10:51am] jowen: Mikelifeguard the bookshelf is not creating textbooks on subjects let me see if I can get someone from bookshelf on the channel to comment

[10:52am] Ziko__: mikelifeguard: that list here

[10:52am] sgardner: (Darkoneko: sure, I can talk about the community fellowship program, but I'll wait until the bookshelf conversation wraps up :-)

[10:52am] darkoneko: jowen, it's more like stuff for presentation at school and etc ?

[10:52am] darkoneko: ( sgardner ok :)

[10:52am] sgardner: James is finding Aradhna, but the bookshelf deliverables are intended to be handout-type materials accompanying training and workshops.

[10:52am] Theo10011:

[10:53am] Theo10011: some of our suggestions made it into the final draft I see

[10:53am] sgardner: Like, support materials such as the cheat sheet, FAQs, that kind of thing.

[10:53am] geniice joined the chat room.

[10:53am] StevenW: So we have a little more than 5 minutes left.

[10:53am] thedj: lets talk about the Pending changes 2 month trial

[10:54am] sgardner: Aradhana, not Aradhna. I have been misspelling her name :-(

[10:54am] thedj: i believe some people are upset that Jimbo interpreted the review poll as "no reason to disable" ?

[10:54am] sgardner: What about darkoneko's question about the Fellows program? And we can do PC afterwards.

[10:54am] sgardner: (I can stay on a bit past the top of the hour, if other people can.)

[10:54am] jowen: Yes, the materials are being made to focus on new users of our projects. To aid in helping new users learn about editing and the work of the organization. These will be in some print form and also videos which will be open and free to adapt.

[10:54am] thedj: i've fount it to be incredible "quiet" on the front of en.wp regarding the whole Pending Changes thing I have to say.

[10:55am] darkoneko: so, how will the fellows program work exactly ? I understand it's a limited time employment, or grant to do a specific task ?

[10:55am] jowen: If you want to learn more about bookshelf you can always email aradhana who is managing the project

[10:55am] jowen: her email is

[10:55am] darkoneko: is it limited to people that can go work in SF ?

[10:55am] sgardner: So here's the Fellows program as I understand it. And Steven, you should feel free to jump in too if you know more than I do, or if I am wrong about anything.

[10:55am] StevenW: Will do.

[10:55am] guillom: I asked that question on the blog, darkoneko , and zack replied; his comment was still awaiting moderation this morning, let me check

[10:56am] darkoneko: I have the thing open, I dn't see answer from zack (not under than name/nick at least)

[10:56am] guillom: here it is:

[10:56am] guillom: « Attracting and accommodating people from many countries and language communities will be one of the big goals of the Fellows program. Yes, many will probably work from their home countries. But we want to do everything we can to help fellows, in general, work here in San Francisco with the rest of the staff and Fellows. »

[10:57am] sgardner: The gist of the program is to bring people to SF to work on specific projects. The projects might be research-related ("Why are so few people becoming admins these days?"), or they might be more action-related (like, launching a Campus Ambassadors Program or launching something designed to recruit more feamle editors).

[10:57am] sgardner: So it sounds like (based on that from Guillaume) that people may be able to work from their home countries.

[10:57am] darkoneko: hmm

[10:57am] sgardner: But I think our preference would be for people to come here, because part of the goal of the project is to encourage cross-pollination and communication with the staff, and with other Fellos.

[10:57am] sgardner: *Fellows.

[10:57am] sgardner: Does that make sense, darkoneko?

[10:58am] Theo10011: a Wikipedia Cultural immersion

[10:58am] darkoneko: it does it does

[10:58am] StevenW: And the other factor with locaiton is giving Fellows access to Foundation resources to support their project, which is easier from SF of course.

[10:58am] sgardner: We want to have a wiki house, where Fellows can live while they're here, and hang out and share ideas.

[10:58am] Theo10011: that sounds cool

[10:59am] darkoneko: I understand why people that can actually come to SF are better, but still, I'm a bit disapointed :)

[10:59am] sgardner: I think it could be amazing.

[10:59am] mikelifeguard: I was just going to ask how you plan to mitigate the issues of uprooting someone to come to SF for 6 months and then sending them back home. That's a lot of bother for a time-limited commitment

[10:59am] sgardner: I've been involved with 'houses' like that before, as has Danese and I think Zack too. And we think it has fabulous potential -- and it would be fun.

[10:59am] darkoneko: don't get me wrong, I still think it's a great idea (at least in theory, wde'll see for pratice) it's just that it will be US people (almost-only

[10:59am] StevenW: darkoneko: if you have an idea for a project or know someone who does, I would not hesitate to submit it if you can't relocate.

[10:59am] sgardner: Mikelifeguard, yeah, I hear you.

[10:59am] darkoneko: ok

[11:00am] sgardner: Nono, darkoneko, the goal is absolutely NOT to be US-centric.

[11:00am] Theo10011: its usually people working on a specific wiki related project Mike

[11:00am] darkoneko: I know, it's more a consequence thatn a will, of course

[11:00am] mikelifeguard: I mean, I'm sure you've come across that even hiring people for permanent employment. Moving is a big deal.

[11:00am] Theo10011: its just providing them support and access

[11:00am] mdale joined the chat room.

[11:01am] sgardner: Do you guys know about the Pluralism Diversity and Internationalism policy?

[11:01am] darkoneko: ?

[11:01am] sgardner: It is really great.

[11:01am] guillom: true mikelifeguard ; and sometimes people have to move back because they can't stay in the US :)

[11:01am] jowen:,_Internationalism,_and_Diversity_Policy

[11:01am] sgardner: I wrote it a couple of years ago, and was thrilled when the board liked it.

[11:01am] StevenW: Thanks James.

[11:02am] sgardner: It basically mandates us (within the limits of US employment law) to be origins-neutral in hiring. So, we are now reasonably well set-up to do that. We get people working visas, we pay their relocation costs, and so forth.

[11:02am] sgardner: It's really great.

[11:02am] sgardner: hane on let me grab you some stats :-)

[11:02am] darkoneko: wow

[11:02am] GerardM-: Sue when are we going to improve internationalism by ensuring that language technology is in place to support our languages .... like Hindi ?

[11:03am] mikelifeguard: That sounds much better than my past experiences with attempting to work in the US :)

[11:03am] StevenW: It's now two past the official time limit, so if you need to go please feel free, though I know Sue said she can stay a few mins.

[11:03am] StevenW: As can I.

[11:03am] sgardner: FWIW, I did a tiny little analysis of staffing the other day: let me just share it, since I have it:

[11:03am] sgardner: Prior to 2009-10 we had 22 permanent staff, of whom 77% had been

[11:03am] sgardner: hired into a role that had been publicly posted; 41% were

[11:03am] sgardner: non-American; 23% were female and 14% were visible minority.

[11:03am] sgardner: * In 2009-10 we hired 15 additional permanent staff, of whom 66% were

[11:03am] sgardner: hired into roles that had been publicly posted; 20% were non-American;

[11:03am] sgardner: 40% were female and 20% were visible minority

[11:03am] Jan_eissfeldt joined the chat room.

[11:03am] sgardner: Leaving us at the end of 2009-10 with a permanent staff of 38, 71%

[11:03am] sgardner: of whom had been hired into roles that had been publicly posted; 32%

[11:03am] sgardner: of whom are non-American; 29% of whom are female, and 16% of whom are

[11:03am] sgardner: visible minority.

[11:03am] Myst left the chat room. (Quit: 2.21 gigawatts !)

[11:03am] Chaoticfluffy: still a quart low on women...

[11:03am] sgardner: We won't be able to discuss it, because I do want to get to Pending Changes, but FWIW there are some numbers. Maybe we can talk about them / their implications, next time.

[11:04am] darkoneko: Chaoticfluffy, it's getting better, don't complain :)

[11:04am] StevenW: Yes, sounds like a good topic for next office hours.

[11:04am] sgardner: Yep, low on women. And zero African-Americans and Hispanics, which is disproportionate for the Bay Area.

[11:04am] sgardner: K sorry -- back to PC.

[11:05am] sgardner: So, thedj, did you say that the conversation about PC felt quiet to you?

[11:05am] darkoneko: are there ongoing statistics creation (or if they are already available) about this 2 months test ?

[11:06am] sgardner: Oh gosh, I actually don't know. Erik knows, and Howie would know, but I don't -- and they're both in meetings.

[11:06am] darkoneko: will be for next office hour then :)

[11:06am] sgardner: But the real issue, as I understand it, is about "what warrants consensus," and "what's the default: to take it down or keep it up." Am I right?

[11:07am] sgardner: My understanding is that roughly two thirds of people have argued for keeping it in place (or maybe for not taking it down). Yes?

[11:07am] Theo10011: yeth I think its botu what to do in the mean time

[11:07am] thedj: sorry, i was out for a min. trying to safe my dinner :D

[11:07am] darkoneko: I admit I haven't followed much on the issue. I just know there was a straw poll about it

[11:07am] Theo10011: 60% for keeping it

[11:07am] Theo10011: around that

[11:08am] thedj: indeed. Jimbo interprets it as keep it on, but limit to current set, while we improve the software

[11:08am] darkoneko: keeping it while keeping the 2000 (1000 ?) articles-using-it limit ?

[11:08am] darkoneko: ah

[11:08am] thedj: others are up in arms and say "2 months is 2 months, it should be gone now"

[11:08am] geniice: sgardner no

[11:08am] sgardner: What's no, Geni?

[11:08am] thedj: because it doesn't have a 70% majority..

[11:08am] Theo10011: 65%support 35% oppose -those were the result of the straw poll

[11:08am] geniice: sgardner slightly under 2/3 has voted for various things

[11:08am] geniice: 1/2 voted to remove

[11:09am] darkoneko: well, if they wnat it down @enwiki, I'd propose frwiki people to run a test for it *interested* could also give a different experience on the thing

[11:09am] geniice: 1/3

[11:09am] sgardner: So the issue is: is 65% sufficient to keep it, and also, what happens to it while various improvements are made?

[11:09am] geniice: sgardner no

[11:09am] sgardner: So what's the issue?

[11:09am] StevenW: I think Geni meant the answer was no, not that it's not the issue?

[11:10am] geniice: sgardner does jimbo unilatealy have the power to rewrite the rules of a trial that was negotiated with significant care

[11:10am] darkoneko: that sounds like a rethorical question

[11:10am] geniice: darkoneko nope

[11:10am] darkoneko: oh

[11:10am] geniice: per policy he doesn't

[11:10am] Sky2042_afk: It does sound like a leading question though.

[11:11am] • Sky2042_afk chides geniice.

[11:11am] thedj: i think our problem is that it seems PC just hasn't brought as much benefit as some would have hoped.

[11:11am] sgardner: I'm sure Jimy would take issue with being characterized that way ;-)

[11:11am] sgardner: *Jimmy

[11:11am] Theo10011:

[11:11am] Theo10011: if anyone needs to look up the results

[11:11am] thedj: and that his is an argument for others to say: the problems outweigh the benefits", out with it.

[11:11am] geniice: Sky2042_afk the 2/3 vs 1/3 thing is leading. And a blatent abuse of statistics

[11:11am] guillom: sgardner, I've asked robla to join the channel

[11:11am] StevenW: So obviously the PC question on is a complex one...and since we're ten past office hours....

[11:11am] robla joined the chat room.

[11:12am] StevenW: Perhaps it's time to wrap up.

[11:12am] guillom: here he comes

[11:12am] sgardner: I think the challenge with PC is that different people brought to it very different goals and expectations.

[11:12am] Sky2042_afk: geniice: I'm judging your comment, not anything about anything else. Nice try to shift the blame. :P

[11:12am] sgardner: hey Robla :-)

[11:12am] robla: howdy!

[11:12am] Ziko__: in de.WP we have it for two years, and it is absolutely no issue anymore

[11:12am] darkoneko: errr

[11:13am] • robla is catching up on the transcript

[11:13am] geniice: Sky2042_afk well actualy the current fight is about what jimbo has the power to do. He's brought himself some time by waving around the foundation but that won't last

[11:13am] sgardner: Maybe Robla, and/or other folks, can do an office hours on PC?

[11:13am] thedj: Ziko__: in the de.wp they see it for what it is, something that can prevent visibility of vandalism

[11:13am] geniice: Ziko__ how is de's edit rate thses days?

[11:13am] sgardner: It feels like it might be useful to have a full hour dedicated to it?

[11:13am] thedj: in enwp many people thought it would be able to replace semi-protection

[11:13am] robla: sgardner: we'd be happy to!

[11:13am] geniice: sgardner already been done

[11:13am] darkoneko: sgardner, it looks like a good idea

[11:13am] thedj: turns out it just doesn't work that well in many cases to replace semi-protection

[11:14am] Ziko__: semi-protections remain, it is a different thing for different purposes

[11:14am] robla: I'll schedule something and make sure we get the right people there

[11:14am] StevenW: Great idea.

[11:14am] darkoneko: thedj, right tool for right action, I don't see a problem for a tool to not work on everything

[11:14am] geniice: sgardner we've had massive amounts of debate and now jimbo has decided to throw another spanner in the works. Not as if we were exactly short of those already

[11:14am] sgardner: thedj: yeah. People had all kinds of different assumptions/expectations about it. I heard some of that in New York -- and you could see from Howie's study, that it would be useful for meeting some of the expectations, but not for all of them.

[11:14am] mdale left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving.)

[11:15am] StevenW: Alright, well seems like the plan is for the next office hours to be dedicated to PC :)

[11:15am] jowen: As we wrap-up I just wanted to let everyone know Sue's next office hours will be on September 30, 23:00 UTS

[11:15am] StevenW: Thanks James.

[11:15am] StevenW: And thanks Sue!

[11:15am] mikelifeguard: jowen: Is Danese on the schedule?

[11:15am] darkoneko: UTS ? UTC ?

[11:15am] StevenW: UTC

[11:15am] sgardner: Geni, I don't know what to say to you. People are talking about PC on the wiki, Jimmy is there, that's where the conversation needs to play out. But I am surprised to hear from thedj that the conversation is quiet.

[11:15am] darkoneko: ok

[11:16am] jowen: I dont know about Danese's schedule but I will ask her to schedule one soon.

[11:16am] sgardner: Okay! Who else do you guys want to hear from ---- Robla, Danese....?

[11:16am] sgardner: Cyn?

[11:16am] sgardner: (Since she is so new.)

[11:16am] geniice: sgardner evryone waiting for the foundation to move

[11:16am] sgardner: Or zack?

[11:16am] Theo10011: zack

[11:16am] robla: thedj: also...let me know where you're expecting a response

[11:16am] mikelifeguard: jowen: Thanks. I know a lot of us have been waiting for that one for a while.

[11:16am] sgardner: Geni: To move on PC?

[11:16am] Theo10011: and kul

[11:16am] geniice: oh pluss completely fed up with the issue for the most part

[11:16am] Theo10011: its been a while

[11:16am] geniice: sgardner ja

[11:16am] thedj: sgardner: well the review poll was popular, and the initial interpretation of the poll as well, but since then it's kinda quiet, possibly because it is so complicated to interpret it correctly.

[11:16am] jowen: I will see what I can do!

[11:16am] sgardner: Okay.

[11:17am] mdale joined the chat room.

[11:17am] Theo10011: zack hasnt held an office hour yet?

[11:17am] thedj: robla: i think we should just put it on a schedule yeah.

[11:17am] sgardner: Okay, very good! Thank you everyone. I need to go sign some things. But we will set up a PC IRC chat to talk more about that issue. Maybe we can line it up so Jimmy can come too.

[11:17am] StevenW: Thanks all.

[11:18am] guillom: we'll probably have an IRC office hours in the coming weeks about the Article feedback tool pilot, and the Upload wizard / licensing tutorial for Commons

[11:18am] Theo10011:Thanks sue

[11:18am] sgardner: Thanks Steven. Thanks everyone :-)

[11:18am] StevenW: I will post the transcript on Meta.

[11:18am] • thedj hands sgardner coffee and stroopwafels, and wishes her luck with the rest of her day in service of wikimedia :D

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[11:18am] str4nd joined the chat room.

[11:19am] Ziko__: thanks

[11:19am] sgardner: Bye bye.

[11:19am] Theo10011: byeeeee

[11:19am] sgardner left the chat room. (Quit: Leaving)