IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-01-27

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Session Start: Fri Jan 27 18:37:11 2012
Session Ident: #wikimedia-office
[18:37] * Now talking in #wikimedia-office
[18:37] * Topic is 'Next meeting Fri. Jan 27, 19:00 UTC - Article Feedback Tool, v5 | IRC office hours https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours | This channel is publicly logged during meetings.'
[18:37] * Set by jeremyb!~jeremyb@wikimedia/jeremyb on Wed Jan 25 20:03:38
[18:37] #wikimedia-office url is http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours
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[18:51] <tommorris> greetings article feedback fans.
[18:52] <Ironholds> tommorris: hullo ;)
[18:52] <Ironholds> hey, fabriceflorin
[18:52] <Ironholds> Bensin, you awake? :P
[18:52] <Bensin> Yup
[18:53] <Ironholds> excellent
[18:53] <Ironholds> Utar is evidently having connectivity problems, alas
[18:53] <tommorris> oh yeah, great story:
[18:53] <tommorris> while going through my most recent batch of feedback for coding, one of the commenters said they had an image to upload
[18:53] <tommorris> and included their e-mail address
[18:53] <tommorris> they are now an OTRS ticket. ;-)
[18:53] <Ironholds> tommorris: my favorite thing at the moment is the SOPA feedback
[18:54] <Ironholds> there are all these comments like "FUCK SOPA" and "SOD SOPA" and "SOPA SUCKS"
[18:54] <Ironholds> and then there's one that simply reads:
[18:54] <Ironholds> "jews"
[18:54] <Ironholds> for some reason it struck me as very funny, in an absurdist sort of way.
[18:55] * Jamietw (~Jamietw@wikimedia/Jamietw) has joined #wikimedia-office
[18:55] <tommorris> I long for the days when antisemites tried to cover it up and refer to "international financiers", "cosmopolitans" and "shape-shifting lizard people"
[18:55] <fabriceflorin> Hi guys! Good to meet again ...
[18:56] <tommorris> hey fabriceflorin
[18:56] <Ironholds> hey, Jamietw! Glad you could make it :)
[18:56] <Jamietw> Ironholds: Hi
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[18:57] <tommorris> through the AFT5 feedback coding, I also discovered Vermin Supreme, whi
[18:57] <tommorris> which is pretty damn awesome
[18:57] <Ironholds> tommorris: that's ringing a bell for some reason
[18:58] <fabriceflorin> Hey TomMorris!
[18:58] <tommorris> he's a joke political candidate
[18:58] <fabriceflorin> Oliver, want to get on Skype?
[18:58] <Ironholds> oh HIM
[18:58] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin: yup, just about to
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[18:59] <tommorris> Ironholds: glitterbombing Randall Terry is all it takes to get into my awesome book
[19:00] * DarTar (~DarTar@wikimedia/DarTar) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:00] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin: should be online now
[19:00] <Ironholds> hey, DarTar
[19:00] * Retrieving #wikimedia-office modes...
[19:00] <DarTar> hola
[19:00] * Ironholds changes topic to 'Office Hours - Article Feedback Tool, v5 | IRC office hours https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours | This channel is publicly logged during meetings.�'
[19:00] <Ironholds> DarTar: wrong nationality
[19:00] <DarTar> buongiorno
[19:00] <DarTar> howie will be joining us in a moment
[19:01] <Ironholds> awesome
[19:01] <fabriceflorin> Bungiorno, DarTar! Calling you on Skype shortly.
[19:01] <Ironholds> okay, we have tommorris, Jamietw, Bensin...anyone else here for office hours?
[19:01] <DarTar> hey fabriceflorin
[19:01] <DarTar> hi everybody
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[19:02] <Bensin> Hey
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[19:05] <fabriceflorin_> Hey Bensin, good to see you again!
[19:05] <Ironholds> okay, hey everyone; we've got fabriceflorin, DarTar and myself so far for this session, and Howie will be along shortly
[19:05] <Ironholds> ah, evidently we have *two* fabrices ;p
[19:05] <Ironholds> they were doing a special 2 for the price of 1 deal, see
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[19:05] <Ironholds> oh dear. fabrice has vanished
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[19:06] <fabriceflorin_> Hehe Ironholds!
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[19:06] <Ironholds> so, first off, DarTar has some metrics and data from all your hand-coding :)
[19:06] <DarTar> ok, so here's some highights re: the analysis
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[19:07] <DarTar> Aaron and I are working to wrap up a final report for phase 1 and 2
[19:07] <DarTar> but here's a teaser
[19:07] <DarTar> volume of feedback
[19:07] <DarTar> We saw that the prominent placement combined with bottom widget nearly doubles the volume of feedback.
[19:08] <DarTar> However, if we were to display the overlay widget only, we would get 24% less feedback than using the bottom widget only
[19:08] <DarTar> In other words,
[19:08] <DarTar> the bottom widget still generates the largest proportion of feedback we collect every day
[19:09] <DarTar> which is surprising
[19:09] <DarTar> SO, beside experimenting with a different solution for the feedback link (like option A), we should test the effects of making the color of the feedback tab more prominent
[19:09] <DarTar> 2. recurrent feedback
[19:09] <DarTar> a negligible fraction of readers send feedback on multiple articles
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[19:10] <DarTar> 94% of readers submitted a single comment via the bottom widget
[19:10] <DarTar> 96% via the overlay widget
[19:10] <DarTar> note that this is based on a very small sample of enwiki articles, the proportion should hopefully go up if/when we ramp up
[19:11] <DarTar> 3. volume of feedback by design
[19:11] <DarTar> option 1 ("did you find what you were looking for") has been consistently generating the largest proportion of comments
[19:11] <DarTar> (41% from the bottom widget, 46% for the overlay widget)
[19:12] <DarTar> the detailed stats per design will be available in the report that we're currently drafting
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[19:12] <DarTar> 4. (and to wrap up) hand coding results
[19:13] <DarTar> we didn't find significant differences between the three options as to the proportion of comments flagged as useful or hide.
[19:13] <DarTar> not surprisingly we did find a difference in "hides" for the random sample and the high-traffic articles
[19:13] <tommorris> (conclusion: people are likely to be just as stupid or helpful even with different designs?)
[19:14] <DarTar> 27% for random sample, 41% for cherry picked (difference is significant at p. <.05)
[19:14] <Ironholds> tommorris: basically. or, not as stupid or helpful, but not distinctly less or more stupid or helpful ;)
[19:14] <DarTar> ditto
[19:14] <Bensin> DarTar: Will you be testing my fourth option, the clean and simple "How can this article be improved" before releasing the report?
[19:15] <DarTar> Bensin, the report will be available early next week based on the data we've collected until now
[19:15] <Bensin> DarTar: I've been pushing that option for a while now and at least two other users backed it.
[19:16] <DarTar> to test a new option we would need to implement it and currently the priority is to test placements, but we'll be able to finetune the tests at a later stage
[19:16] <Ironholds> Bensin: Indeed. I quite like it myself :).
[19:16] <tommorris> here's a question: if/when AFT5 gets rolled out on enwiki (which, let's not beat around the bush, is basically main deployment), are there any continued plans for A/B testing and design modification once we start getting large-scale use?
[19:16] <DarTar> tommorris: for sure
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[19:17] <fabriceflorin> Tommorris, once we deploy widely, we are very open to making tweaks.
[19:18] <tommorris> 'cos it seems that so long as there is rough consensus that it is better than the existing tool, and the parameters of how feedback is going to work, it'd be better to deploy, then A/B test more minor aspects of visual design once live
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[19:18] <fabriceflorin> But there will be more A/B testing after we make a decision of which form to optimize for.
[19:18] <DarTar> yeah, I agree
[19:18] <tommorris> the difficult bit isn't whether it is more subtle colours or not, it's whether the community is going to handle the response well
[19:19] <fabriceflorin> So this collaborative process is likely to continue for another couple months, and you will all have plenty of opportunities to comment on the designs.
[19:19] <DarTar> although a small random sample is good enough to rapidly make these tests with short iterations
[19:19] <tommorris> what's the rough timetable for live deployment - that is, people actually handling feedback on-wiki and a more substantial number of articles
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[19:20] <fabriceflorin> Hi, Tom, check the schedule on the AFT5 page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5#Schedule
[19:21] <Ironholds> TL:DR: 7 March ;p
[19:21] * tommorris asks not to be an asshole, but actually because he's quite excited about having better feedback from readers.
[19:21] <Ironholds> tommorris: you're not an asshole!
[19:21] <Ironholds> you make me do assholey things, but...
[19:21] <fabriceflorin> More on reader feedback in a moment, tom.
[19:21] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: Option D of the feedbacklink needs an "x" or other dismiss-option.
[19:21] <howief> please note that this is a very tentative date
[19:21] <fabriceflorin> Bensin, yes, we're working on it.
[19:22] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: And we want to measure how often it is used :-)
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[19:22] <howief> Bensin: yes, we do need that feature
[19:22] <Ironholds> Bensin: we're going to measure that :)
[19:22] <Bensin> Excellent!
[19:22] <howief> but we need to do it the right way, i.e., not via a cookie
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[19:22] <howief> it needs to access user preferences
[19:22] <howief> and I'm not sure we have an api to do that yet
[19:22] <Ironholds> so, on the subject about having feedback, do we want to talk about how to handle it? I have juicy RfC results ;)
[19:22] * tommorris thinks he knows the results of the RfCs.
[19:22] <fabriceflorin> Note that we are not sure that Option D is the final version, so we were going to wait to put the 'X' on it until we select a final one.
[19:23] <Ironholds> tommorris: oh?
[19:23] <Ironholds> well, you did close it ;p
[19:23] <Ironholds> I more meant "our response to the RfC" :P
[19:23] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: It should be on all options.
[19:23] <tommorris> ah, indeed, that'd be interesting to hear
[19:23] <tommorris> especially if it starts "thanks to the wisdom of the community..."
[19:23] <Bensin> (more or less)
[19:23] <Ironholds> we've decided that the default for the feedback page is going to be that administrators, rollbackers and reviewers can hide feedback
[19:24] <Ironholds> tommorris: yes; we have decided patrolling should be done by Jimbo and everyone should get £500
[19:24] <fabriceflorin> Yes, Bensin, I hear you. But we are still trying to figure out a way to make it tie in with the user preference, so you can choose to have this permanently disabled, rather than only for a few hours.
[19:24] <Ironholds> Bensin: at the end of the day the little tab is going to be turned off in a few weeks anyway. but in the meantime I hope we can get a dismiss button live :
[19:24] <fabriceflorin> Jimbo said no problem, send him the invoice ;o)
[19:24] <Ironholds> *:)
[19:25] <fabriceflorin> I kid, of course.
[19:25] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: Fair enough :-) Thanks!
[19:25] <DarTar> DYK trivia of the day, we have AFT5 enabled on Kuramagomed_Kuramagomedov - how awesome is that
[19:25] * DarTar wants the same name if he becomes a freestyle wrestler
[19:25] <Ironholds> DarTar: you would be an awesome freestyle wrestler
[19:25] <Ironholds> "I calculate an 83.55 percent chance I'm going to OWN YOU"
[19:26] <DarTar> challenge accepted
[19:26] <Ironholds> "I've got quantifiable data on yo ass!"
[19:26] <tommorris> so, with the feedback, is there going to be a way of marking something resolved?
[19:26] <tommorris> because that's kind of a nice thing
[19:26] <fabriceflorin> You're welcome Bensin. Expect that solution to be rolled out within a week or two. It's definitely on the schedule, but we want to deploy the feedback page first, and it's taking all our time.
[19:26] <Bensin> tommorris: I second.
[19:26] <tommorris> wikipedia currently lacks a sensible way of having, essentially, issues attached to articles and being able to hunt 'em down
[19:26] <DarTar> tommorris: very true
[19:27] <DarTar> we should make these issues easily discoverable
[19:27] <Ironholds> which is what this tool is all about :)
[19:27] <fabriceflorin> Tom, we're working on a to-do list that would let you flag related feedback items and turn them into an actionable ticket of proposed improvements.
[19:28] <fabriceflorin> That to-do list is a couple months away, but is definitely under consideration.
[19:28] <tommorris> especially at the wikiproject level. it'd be great to say, "I've got a day working in the law library, show me all the tickets that can be handled on legal articles"
[19:28] <Ironholds> tommorris: I wonder where you got *that* example from ;p
[19:28] <Ironholds> so does anyone have any questions about the RfC, or should we move on?
[19:29] <tommorris> The RfC was pretty uncontroversial. otherwise I wouldn't have closed it. ;-)
[19:29] <tommorris> of course, remember, consensus may change. and people WILL shout and scream when it actually gets released
[19:29] <DarTar> Kuramagomed Kuramagomedov moved from 97kg in 1998 to 120kg in 2005, wondering how he'll be doing at the 2012 olympics
[19:29] <tommorris> I can guarantee that
[19:30] <Ironholds> so, on another note; we have a survey up for readers about the tool :)
[19:30] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin, want to talk about that?
[19:30] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, Ironholds. Yes we launched a new Survey CTA and Survey Monkey form this Wednesday, to see what readers think of the feedback forms. AFT5 now opens open a Survey Monkey popup window, using one of 3 links, one for each option.
[19:31] <fabriceflorin> A pattern is starting to emerge already -- even though the survey is scheduled to run through next Monday, when we expect to have about a thousand usable responses.
[19:31] <tommorris> people likey?
[19:31] <fabriceflorin> So far, it appears that survey respondents generally like the feedback forms, with an average of about 67% favorable and 12% unfavorable responses (21% are not sure), based on 262 responses on our first day.
[19:31] <tommorris> do we have any way of tying that data to the feedback coding?
[19:32] <fabriceflorin> Sadly, there is no clear winner yet between the three different feedback forms, as you can tell from the graph and tables below, as well as the attached spreadsheet. The three options are neck in neck, though Options 1 and 2 seem to be getting more "net likes" ('Like it' minus 'Don't like') than Option 3.
[19:32] <tommorris> as in are the 12% who don't like it the ones who are typing "asdf;asdf;asdf;afkjlakfbne Wikipedia is RUN BY JEWS!!!2!"
[19:32] <Ironholds> tommorris: well, our server tech is jewish
[19:32] <Ironholds> so it is practically and technically true
[19:32] <DarTar> tommorris: the problem with that is that survey data are from a self-selected sample, we will definitely compare the results with the hand coding data but only informally
[19:32] <Bensin> fabriceflorin: I like tommorris thinking. If you could somehow retrieve todo-tickets by topic. (based on what article the ticket )
[19:33] <Bensin> ... was filed in.
[19:33] <fabriceflorin> Sorry about that, I have no way of attaching the graphic and spreadsheet here, so you'll have to take my word for it ;o)
[19:33] <Ironholds> don't worry, though; we're putting together a summary report which will hopefully include the graphics ;)
[19:33] <fabriceflorin> But we will publish full results by next Thurdsay.
[19:33] <tommorris> Bensin: we already have this for protected articles with {{edit protected}} etc. - basically a really crummy implementation of pending changes! ;-)
[19:33] <Ironholds> jinx!
[19:33] <fabriceflorin> Note that this matches our early findings from our parallel feedback evaluations by editors, where the three options are also neck-in-neck. I guess we did too good of a job making all three forms work well ;o)
[19:33] <fabriceflorin> Of course, this is all very preliminary and survey responses are only one of the 5 data points we are looking at for making a decision next week. But I thought you might find this interesting as an early indicator of likely results.
[19:34] <fabriceflorin> As Ironhods said, we are also preparing a report on our three feedback forms, summarizing our findings and recommendations about the three options we tested in December and January.
[19:34] <fabriceflorin> This document will be presented first to Wikimedia product management on Wednesday, Feb. 1 afternoon, then to community members on Thursday, Feb. 2 at 1pm PT.
[19:35] <fabriceflorin> Now on the feedback page. I'm happy to say we now have a first working feedback page prototype, which we can look at together now, at this URL: http://prototype.wikimedia.org/release-en/Special:ArticleFeedbackv5/Golden-crowned_Sparrow
[19:36] <fabriceflorin> I should point out that this prototype still has lots of bugs and issues, but there is enough that's working now for you to give us some comments.
[19:36] <tommorris> ooh ooh ooh.
[19:36] <tommorris> nice
[19:37] <fabriceflorin> For example, the tools panel on the right is going to change. Instead of opening up on rollover, it will be permanently open. And it will only be available to roll backers, admins and the like, of course. ;o)
[19:38] <fabriceflorin> Lots of features are still being worked on, so please let us know what you think needs fixing.
[19:38] <tommorris> only problem is that given a 13" laptop screen, the scroll-within-scroll is a bit excessive
[19:38] <howief> tommorris: good point
[19:38] <howief> i don't think there needs to be a scroll within a scroll
[19:38] <fabriceflorin> Ignore the tools panel for now, as it's not working as intended yet.
[19:39] <fabriceflorin> But the Yes / No buttons should work now. And the Flag for abuse is also working, I believe.
[19:39] <tommorris> I'll screenshot it in a sec
[19:39] <Jamietw> Zero feedback posts on article?
[19:40] <howief> Jamietw: you're not showing any feedback posts on the link Fabrice sent?
[19:40] <Jamietw> No
[19:41] <howief> can you refresh? mine took a split second to load
[19:41] <fabriceflorin> Jamietw, what browser and OS are you using?
[19:41] <Jamietw> Yes, still nothing
[19:41] <Bensin> Jamietw: Need to activate javascript
[19:41] <fabriceflorin> Ah, yes, you need Jscript.
[19:42] <Bensin> (which might be good testing for and informing users that don't have it on)
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[19:42] <Jamietw> It's on but it might be something to do with the fact I am on an iPad?
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[19:42] <howief> Jamietw: why in the world would you want to view this on an ipad?
[19:42] <howief> (just kidding)
[19:43] <Ironholds> Jamietw: yeah, we don't have tablet support yet
[19:43] <Jamietw> Ah, ok. Heading for the computer
[19:45] <tommorris> http://tommorris.org/files/aft5_on_laptop_screen-20120127-194509.png
[19:45] <tommorris> ^ how it looks on my computer
[19:45] <Ironholds> tommorris: blacked out the porn?
[19:46] <tommorris> Ironholds: no, worse, programming-related stuff
[19:46] <Bensin> I was gonna say "Mine looks the same, but with more blacked out tabs" :-)
[19:46] <Ironholds> tommorris: hah!
[19:46] <Ironholds> Bensin: hehehe
[19:47] <Bensin> Mine programming-related too, of course! O:-)
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[19:48] <Ironholds> sorry for the silence; we're all bugging fabriceflorin with features suggestions over skype ;)
[19:48] <tommorris> while coding responses, I've just come across a response to Jesus: "too much words"
[19:49] <DarTar> fabriceflorin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FeedbackDashboard/14951
[19:49] <tommorris> again, we need Bayesian stupidity detection
[19:49] <Ironholds> DarTar: "happy" plus "fg4rhtfuvrgbvrtkgv ntgkbn5klbgm.kbvjt5lbkt4g rfcerhgvbertg fcwdefg vfujdjnrt casbhrfe edxjzbdwerf sdfnx xsfgjy,io fxcq" makes me think "man, he's high"
[19:49] <tommorris> DarTar: hidden
[19:50] <DarTar> or unicode problem?
[19:50] <fabriceflorin> Thank you all for all your good suggestions. I am writing them down as quickly as I can, and will send them to the developers later today.
[19:50] <DarTar> :D
[19:51] <tommorris> I think the primary thing with feedback is bascially triaging suggestions into "useful, we can work on", "not useful", "hidden" and "done".
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[19:51] <fabriceflorin> We still have a long to-do lists, so you are only seeing a partial version of the finished product.
[19:51] <fabriceflorin> But it's helpful to get your feedback now, to confirm that we are doing the right thing.
[19:51] <tommorris> it definitely needs to be more like Trac/Bugzilla (albeit without the atrociously unfriendly UIs) than like Digg.
[19:52] <Ironholds> tommorris: eww, bugzilla
[19:52] <Ironholds> so, next week's office hours, btw
[19:52] <Ironholds> (bensin, tommorris, Jamietw, listen up)
[19:52] <tommorris> hey, it's a rule, all bug trackers have ugly UIs.
[19:52] <Ironholds> we're moving it to Thursday at 21:00 UTC :)
[19:52] <Ironholds> hope this is okay with everyone!
[19:52] <tommorris> fine by me
[19:52] <Bensin> ok
[19:53] <Ironholds> basically it'll let us include the east-coasties from the US
[19:53] <Ironholds> (plus, asking people to come chat on a friday night cuts into their drinking time)
[19:53] <fabriceflorin> Sounds great. That Thursday review should be a fascinating meeting. We have so much interesting data to look at together.
[19:54] <Ironholds> and, of course, we'll have the summary report :)
[19:55] <Bensin> <fabriceflorin> As Ironhods said, we are also preparing a report on our three feedback forms, summarizing our findings and recommendations about the three options we tested in December and January.
[19:55] * philinje (~pchang@216.38.130.163) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[19:55] * Snowolf_ (snowolf@wikimedia/Snowolf) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:55] <Bensin> May I suggest you hold back the recommendation until at least you've tested all options?
[19:55] * Snowolf_ is now known as Snowolf
[19:55] * philinje (~pchang@216.38.130.165) has joined #wikimedia-office
[19:56] <Jamietw> Got the feedback page to work on computer. It looks great.
[19:56] <fabriceflorin> Bensin, this is the recommendation for which of the three design forms to optimize for. Once we do select that form, we can tweak it after that.
[19:56] * Bensin knows he's being a pain, but he also knows he's right...
[19:57] <Ironholds> Bensin: heheh
[19:57] <Ironholds> well, if we wait around and test a 4th version now, we have to basically stop work
[19:57] <Ironholds> because we can't move forward with a lot of stuff until we have a recommendation
[19:57] <Ironholds> but after we've got the "main" stuff sorted, we can totally play around with wordings. We've got a big chunk of time after deployment basically dedicated to fiddling with the interface.
[19:57] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, Bensin. I appreciate your understanding, and we are not giving up on your proposal. But we have to eliminate a couple candidates now, or we'll never get this thing done ;o)
[19:58] <Ironholds> Jamietw: I shall pass your compliments on to the devs :)
[19:58] <Bensin> We'll it's not like it's a completely new idea, it's been on the table for quite some time :-)
[19:58] <Ironholds> if any of you do spot bugs, do email me and I'll pass them on
[19:58] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, guys, great feedback as always!
[19:58] * DarTar is now known as Kuramagomed
[19:59] <Jamietw> How do you get the tool pane up?
[19:59] <Kuramagomed> BYE EVERYONE, REAL PLEASURE
[19:59] <Bensin> Kuramagomed: :-)
[19:59] <Ironholds> don't worry, people, we're PROFESSIONALS
[19:59] <fabriceflorin> Bye Kuramagomed.
[19:59] <Ironholds> right, I have to jet to another meeting. take care all, and thanks as always for the feedback :)
[19:59] <howief> thanks everyone!
[19:59] * Jamietw (~Jamietw@wikimedia/Jamietw) has left #wikimedia-office
[19:59] * Kuramagomed (~DarTar@wikimedia/DarTar) has left #wikimedia-office
[19:59] <fabriceflorin> Gotta go too, but it's always a pleasure. Have a nice weekend!
[20:00] * howief (~howiefung@216.38.130.165) Quit (Quit: howief)
Session Close: Fri Jan 27 20:00:23 2012