Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Tunisian
Tunisian Language Wikipedia[edit]
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Tunisian Arabic Language Presentation== The Tunisian (In Tunisian: Tunsi) is a Semitic language spoken as a mother language in Tunisia. It's best known for that it's closely related to Maltese. It's a vowel-based language. This language is widely used in culture, communication, media etc.. It has ancient roots dating from the Phoenician era when Phoenician settlers came to Tunisia and founded the city of Carthage. The language was quite similar then. Punic, which is a mixture of the Semitic Phoenician and Berber,the local language, was widely spoken at the time. After the Carthaginian defeat, Latin was introduced. And Arabic, another Semitic language, was brought by the Arabs after the Islamic conquest of Tunisia. It has certainly influenced the Punic language which survived during the Roman and the Byzantine Rule over the region. After the Ottoman Capture of Tunis, Tunisia became an Ottoman Regency and Turks brought along their vocabulary with them to Tunisia. Although the Turkish Rule ended in the XIX Century, Tunisian has kept its words of Turkish origins. French, Italian and Maltese played a major role in enriching the Tunisian language, too. French and Italian words are easily distinguishable in Tunisian and are of major importance. Tunisian has various dialects within Tunisian which can be classified as following: -Tunis Dialect - Northwestern dialect (close to the Algerian language) - Southeastern dialect (close to the Libyan language) - Sahel dialect ( Sousse - Monastir - Mahdia) - Sfax dialect
This clearly proves Tunisian is an independent language, seeing that there is no dialect containing other dialects.
Benefits of a Tunisian Arabic Wikipedia[edit]
The fact of creating Tunisian Arabic Wikipedia offers to analphabet Tunisian many privileges and advantages as well. These people (over than 15 percent of Tunisian People) can thanks to a understood language Wikipedia profite from the best e-source of knowledge and information in a better way Furthermore, tunisian people will have the occasion to discuss and express his opinion in many important and interesting subjects and topics.
Arguments in Favour[edit]
- Since it is a fashion to write in Tunisian Arabic, it would be good to create a Tunisian Wikipedia
- Tunisian illiterates or even tunisians who have not good skills in Former Arabic, French, English &c... will have the occasion to express themselves
- Tunisian Arabic is understood in other nearest countries such as Libya and Algeria
- Tunisian Arabic is known by all tunisians. So, pages in a such language will be understood quickly and will create a kind of interaction between people and wikipedia
- it is unjust that languages spoken by a few persons have their own wikipedia, while, Tunisian Wikipedia which is spoken by over than 11 million people have not one
- It is the main language used in Tunisian films, series, TV shows, songs and in all the cultural life of Tunisia.
- It can be understood by many people of Tunisian descent, outside Tunisia (particularly in France, N.B.: Tunisians in foreign countries are over 3 million (Census of the Office of Tunisians in foreign Countries ONT)
- The same words may have different meanings in Tunisian and in Arabic. And although their origin is Arabic, their meaning in Tunisian has changed from the original.
- Tunisian is a mix of many Mediterranean languages from Berbere to French. So, some world may have the same spelling than Arabic words, but they are origined from other languages: That's why it might be a misunderstanding of a wikipedia article written in Arabic.
- Many dictionaries have already been edited for this language, from the 19th century to this day.
- Many Courses are offered to learn Tunisian which is for Tunisians "The language of ancestors and grandsons"
- Tunisian Arabic is valuable for Tunisians. They're proud of it... and if wikipedia accepts lauching the Tunisian Arabic Wikipedia, many tunisians will be encouraged to enter to the community of Wikiprojects and most of them will edit articles about Tunisian cultures as well.
- From the early 1970s, many linguistics worked to gather the vocabulary and the rules of Tunisian such as Mr. Taieb Baccouche, Acting Minister of Education and Spokesman in the actual Tunisian Goverment and Saleh Mejri and Skik.
- Tunisian offers the chance for a cultural united identity rather than being torn in between Arabic-speaking and French-speaking population in Tunisia, while Tunisian, a language with many dialects is understood by at least 11 million Tunisians.
- It's not a dialect. If it was a dialect, it wouldn't have different grammar and conjugating rules.
There are a lot of books translated into Tunisian. For example The Little Prince"" of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry was translated into Tunisian. Tunisian is a vowel-based language. The latin alphabet is the most adequate alphabet for it.
There are a lot of organisations in Tunisia working on this subject. An attempt of Standardisation is the STUNdard Transcription Method stundard.wordpress.com
The official language is Arabic. But Arabic is never spoken within the population. Culturally, it has the same position of French in Tunisia. Using Tunisian as a language will unify Tunisians linguistically, they're divided into Arabophobes and Francophones.
Liste de quelques travaux de recherche sur la langue tunisienne :
1- Taïeb Baccouche, « Le phonème g dans les parlers arabes citadins de Tunisie », Revue tunisienne de sciences sociales, n°9 (30/31), 1972, pp. 103-137
2- Taïeb Baccouche, Hichem Skik et Abdelmajid Attia, « Travaux de phonologie. Parlers de Djemmal, Gabès et Mahdia », Cahiers du CERES, Tunis, 1969
3- Jean-Pierre Cantineau, « Analyse du parler arabe d'El-Hâmma de Gabès », Bulletin de la Société linguistique de Paris, n°47, 1951, pp. 64-105
4- Michael Gibson, Dialect Contact in Tunisian Arabic. Sociolinguistic and structural aspects, éd. Université de Reading, Reading, 1998
5- Mohamed Jabeur, A Sociolinguistic Study in Rades. Tunisia, éd. Université de Reading, Reading, 1987
6- William Marçais, « Les parlers arabes », Initiation à la Tunisie, éd. Adrien-Maisonneuve, Paris, 1950, pp. 195-219
7- Giuliano Mion, « Osservazioni sul sistema verbale dell'arabo di Tunisi », Rivista degli Studi Orientali, n°78, 2004, pp. 243-255
8- Lucienne Saada, Éléments de description du parler arabe de Tozeur, éd. Geuthner Diff., Paris, 1984
9- Hans-Rudolf Singer, Grammatik der arabischen Mundart der Medina von Tunis, éd. Walter de Gruyter, Berlin, 1984
10- Hans Stumme, Grammatik des tunisischen Arabisch, nebst Glossar, Leipzig, 1896
11- Fathi Talmoudi, The Arabic Dialect of Sûsa (Tunisia), éd. Acta Universitatis Gothoburgensis, Göteborg, 1986
Source : Wikipédia.
Arguments against[edit]
- Tunsiian Arabic is a dialect not a language
- No resources are written in Tunisian, it is only spoken. How can a Tunisian Wikipedia grow without such resources ? [check partipirate . tn for example and all Tunisian-speaking magazines]
- No official scipt is used for that dialect. The choice in that discussion will not be based on any language regulation decision.
- No motivated persons accept the guy proposing [edit : you have a commnity of 200 people now].
- No official status for the Tunisian Arabic in Tunisia and any there is the world. The official language of Tunisian is Arabic. --Helmoony 03:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose --U.Steele 19:39, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose although I do see bible portions as early as c 1900 I feel that such a project is doomed with an arabic encyclopedia at it's side and only one willing participant, we need a higher litmus for borderline dialect-languages.Luciferwildcat (talk) 03:53, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose --法尔汉 Aplikasi 14:20, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Other discussion[edit]
- Since it is a fashion to write in Tunisian Arabic, it would be good to create a Tunisian Wikipedia
- We are not talking about fashion here but about an online encyclopedia that have to be updated daily.
- Tunisian illiterates or even tunisians who have not good skills in Former Arabic, French, English &c... will have the occasion to express themselves
- Illiterates in Tunisia learn Arabic to know how to read not Tunisian [3].--Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- And what's the benefit of learning Arabic in a country whose language is totally different. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tunisian Arabic is understood in other nearest countries such as Libya and Algeria
- So what ? have you ever learnt about Dialect continuum--Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- The Dialect Continuum you're talking about exists WITHIN Tunisia, seeing that Tunisian has many different dialects. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tunisian Arabic is known by all tunisians. So, pages in a such language will be understood quickly and will create a kind of interaction between people and wikipedia
- There is no such serious websites on the web. Ara you going to write in Arabic, latin, maltease script ? Are you going to use 3 5 7 9 in the words ? And hwho are you to decide ? is their any Academic source that has already worked on that project ? --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- Tunisian is a vowel-based language just like Turkish. Unlike Arabic which has only three "vowel"s, Tunisian has around 6 vowels: a - e - i - ü - ö - u. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- it is unjust that languages spoken by a few people have their own wikipedia, while, Tunisian Wikipedia which is spoken by over than 11 million people have not one
- Why not if they are languages ? That's not argument --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- Tunisian is a language. It can't be a dialect if it has different grammar and conjugating rules, and a VERY different vocabulary. Just have a look at how French was 800 years ago, wasn't it considered a dialect? Tunisian is a very rich AND growing language. The young generation considers it as a distinguished language. The illiterate Tunisians don't speak Arabic because it's not their mother tongue. The mother LANGUAGE is the language is the language that you don't need to learn at School, it's acquired from the early childhood. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- It is the main language used in Tunisian films, series, TV shows, songs and in all the cultural life of Tunisia.
- But always spoken not written because it is a dialect --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- It is written, both in Latin and Arabic scripts. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- It can be understood by many people of Tunisian descent, outside Tunisia (particularly in France, N.B.: Tunisians in foreign countries are over 3 million (Census of the Office of Tunisians in foreign Countries ONT)
- 3 millions outside Tunisia ? The source says 1 million [4], any way that is not an argument --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- The same words may have different meanings in Tunisian and in Arabic. And although their origin is Arabic, their meaning in Tunisian has changed from the original.
- And it is the same thing for American English and English --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- It's not the same. The differences between British English and American English doesn't change the fact they're both English. While it's VERY obvious that Tunisian is different from Arabic. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tunisian is not Arabic and Arabic is not Tunisian. If Tunisian was Arabic, then Maltese would be Arabic too.EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- Many dictionaries have already been edited for this language, from the 19th century to this day.
- Please give references that says that those dictionaries are dealing with Tunisian Arabic as a language --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- There is "Dictionnaire <<Karmous>> du Tunisien" by Karim Abdellatif. It clearly states Tunisian is a language.EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- Many Courses are offered to learn Tunisian which is for Tunisians "The language of ancestors and grandsons"
- So what ? Many courses of many dialectes in the world are learned.
- Does that make it a dialect?EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- Tunisian Arabic is valuable for Tunisians. They're proud of it... and if Wikipedia accepts launching the Tunisian Wikipedia, many Tunisians will be encouraged to enter to the community of Wikiprojects and most of them will edit articles as well.
- Proud about id as a dialect, what I see now that you are ther only that want to create that wiki.
- Not as a dialect. It is very obvious that Tunisian cannot be understood by Arabs from the Middle east. Okay, so Norwegian and Swedish sound very similar, and they have the same vocabulary, does that makes them two dialects of one language?EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
- From the early 1970s, many linguistics worked to gather the vocabulary and the rules of Tunisian such as Mr. Taieb Baccouche, Acting Minister of Education and Spokesman in the actual Tunisian Goverment and Saleh Mejri and Skik.
- Give resources, and that explicetly say that Tunisian Arabic is a language --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)7
- An Egyptian Wikipedia does exist, it has no official status. I guess the resources you're talking about aren't necessary. Why don't YOU give us resources stating that the mother language of Tunisians is the so-called "Modern Standard Arabic"?EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Compromise proposal: Maghrebi Arabic Wikipedia[edit]
How about a Wikipedia in Maghrebi Arabic, instead of having 4 separate Wikipedias for Tunisian, Algerian, Moroccan and Libyan? This way, we do not split efforts, and we don't risk POV issues related to nationalism. The only obstacle is that right now there is no ISO code for Maghrebi Arabic language, but this is a solvable problem. --Node ue 05:15, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
- This could also be called a Darija Wikipedia (used for Maghrebi Arabic just as for Tunisian, the latter noted by the requestor). –SJ talk | translate , it could also be useful not to list the Arabic, as Darija and North African languages have different phonological roots than Arabic.
This does not make any sense because the three or four different dialects across the maghreb (morrocan, algerian, tunisian and lybian) are so different that it is hard for people to understand each other. Making one unified wikipedia for all of them would not serve any purpose. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.54.130.227 (talk • contribs) .
Localisation Update[edit]
Northwest African Arabic[edit]
Please, take a look at Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Northwest African Arabic and discuss there about the possibility to create Northwest African Arabic (Maghrebi) Wikipedia. --Millosh 23:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
