IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-03-13
Session Start: Wed Mar 14 12:05:45 2012
Session Ident: #wikimedia-office
[12:05] * Now talking in #wikimedia-office
[12:05] * Topic is 'Office hours with Howie Fung, Brandon Harris, Oliver Keyes, Fabrice Florin. | Topic: The New Page Triage Project http://enwp.org/Wikipedia:New_Page_Triage | Publically logged during office hours'
[12:05] * Set by Thehelpfulone!~Helper@wikimedia/Thehelpfulone on Tue Mar 13 19:06:48
[12:05] #wikimedia-office url is http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours
[12:05] <Thehelpfulone> heh I guess we can forgive howief too ;)
[12:05] <Ironholds> morning all! Or evening, rather ;p
[12:06] <howief> Hello everyone!
[12:06] * BloemSmurf (~TBloemink@wikimedia/tbloemink) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:06] <fabriceflorin> Here he is …. drumroll …. the one and only Ironholds!
[12:06] <Thehelpfulone> Ironholds: please feel free to op up, and voice the team
[12:06] <WereSpielchqrs> Greetings world
[12:07] * Retrieving #wikimedia-office modes...
[12:07] <Ironholds> hey, WereSpielchqrs
[12:07] * varnent (~email@example.com) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:07] <Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: Alas, in my almost-six months here nobody has thought to give me ops ;p
[12:07] <Utar> Thehelpfulone: why not, he got in time (not on but in yes, IIRC)
[12:07] * howief (~firstname.lastname@example.org) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[12:07] * howief (~email@example.com) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:07] <Thehelpfulone> Ironholds: remember what I told you 8 weeks ago? try /cs op #wikimedia-office
[12:07] <Ironholds> Utar: heh!
[12:07] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Ironholds
[12:07] <@Ironholds> ooh, nice
[12:07] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone, you win a prize
[12:07] <Thehelpfulone> :D
[12:08] * Ironholds sets mode: +v fabriceflorin
[12:08] <Utar> Thehelpfulone: What does it do?
[12:08] * Ironholds sets mode: +v howief
[12:08] <@Ironholds> Utar: the Ironholds? Mostly it makes a mess
[12:08] * RD (~Rjd0060@wikimedia/Rjd0060) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:08] <Thehelpfulone> Utar: it just means that they'll be on top of the user list, so easy to see
[12:08] <@Ironholds> anyway. Humour and lateness aside; welcome to office hours for new page triage :)
[12:08] <Thehelpfulone> don't forget poor jorm
[12:08] <@Ironholds> (and, of course, the article creation workflow)
[12:08] <+fabriceflorin> … and article creation.
[12:09] <@Ironholds> we have jorm, the mustachioed zen-pirate emperor of the Foundation
[12:09] <@Ironholds> fabriceflorin, the Mr Myagi
[12:09] <Utar> Thehelpfulone: heh, Ironhold has to love it he was always climbing any ladders :D
[12:09] <jorm> i like that title.
[12:09] <@Ironholds> and howief, who decides how much I'm paid
[12:09] <@Ironholds> so be nice to all of them, but mostly howief
[12:09] <@Ironholds> jorm; I thought you would ;p
[12:10] <+howief> i don't know what Ironholds is talking bout
[12:10] <@Ironholds> okay, no need to be nice to howief then. Moving on!
[12:10] <+fabriceflorin> Mr Miyagi works for me too ;o) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisuke_Miyagi
[12:10] * KFP (~KFP@wikipedia/KFP) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:10] <@Ironholds> so we're here to talk about two tools; there's the Article Creation Workflow, which is a new approach to how new editors are asked to create articles
[12:11] <@Ironholds> and then there's New Page Triage, which is a complete revamping and reinventing of Special:NewPages and new page patrol generally
[12:11] * BloemSmurf is now known as TBloemink
[12:11] <@Ironholds> the first one is, well, what we want to talk about first. fabriceflorin has the link to the prototype, I believe?
[12:12] <WereSpielchqrs> I bagsy NPP first
[12:12] <@Ironholds> (be warned that you will have to create an account to sign in. I also created a test account with username "editor" and password "mailing" that you are welcome to use)
[12:12] <+fabriceflorin> Yes, here is the link to the first prototype for Article Creation: http://ee-prototype.wmflabs.org/wiki/Special:ArticleCreationLanding/Hello
[12:12] <@Ironholds> WereSpielchqrs: then you may want to turn your brain off for ~20 minutes ;p.
[12:13] <@Ironholds> ACW is a sliightly more pressing matter just because we've got to do it sooner
[12:13] <Utar> WereSpielchqrs: but remember to switch it on again later
[12:13] <@Ironholds> (although there will be NPT time, and I have a whole host of things I need to upload to enwiki about it. blegh.)
[12:13] <+fabriceflorin> This link assumes that you want to create a new page called 'Hello' -- keep in mind that the prototype is still pretty slow and is only shown here for discussion purposes -- it will change later, based on your good feedback.
[12:13] <Thehelpfulone> ah I saw that in the monthly metrics meeting, I think jorm touched on it then?
[12:14] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: he did, yep :). His explanation holds true, but we really want to know what you think of it
[12:14] <Utar> @Ironholds> for what do we need to be logged in?
[12:14] <+fabriceflorin> For clarity, you can specify any name other than "Hello", if you want to practice on your own. Be sure to check each of the buttons, to see what they do.
[12:14] <@Ironholds> Utar: you get a slightly different view of the tool depending on your logged-in-nes or logged-out-nes
[12:15] * PierreSelim1 (~gph@AToulouse-156-1-162-59.w109-222.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:15] <Thehelpfulone> just a little thing with the link to the article wizard fabriceflorin, it goes to http://ee-prototype.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Article_wizard -> do we need to have a full link? the /wiki/Wikipedia: one is less complicated, especially for a newbie that looks at it
[12:15] <Utar> @Ironholds> I saw that but I was hoping for more >D
[12:15] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: that's a great point. Scribblin' down :)
[12:15] * frakir (~nemesis@unaffiliated/frakir) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:15] <Thehelpfulone> np
[12:15] <Thehelpfulone> same with the logged in one
[12:15] <@Ironholds> (note; some bugs are known. We really need to improve the drafts option, and the tooltip text is going to be slightly modified, hopefully. But if you spot anything and think "this should not work like this", please do speak up)
[12:16] * @Ironholds nods
[12:16] <+fabriceflorin> Thehelpfulone, your point is well taken. These are just preliminary URLs, and we can make them simpler in the next version.
[12:17] <Thehelpfulone> sure, "on "Create this article myself" http://ee-prototype.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Hello&action=edit&acwbucket=reg&acwsource=direct -> do those extra &acw URL parameters create a log somewhere?
[12:17] <Utar> @Ironholds: going back is not doing anything when it is your first page
[12:17] <@Ironholds> Utar: so, if you open the Special:URL as your first page in that window?
[12:18] * PierreSelim (~gph@AToulouse-156-1-117-69.w90-30.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[12:18] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: I believe it's so we can distinguish between certain use cases in our tests of if it is working (so we can distinguish "created as logged in" from "logged out and created an account" say) but I'm not entirely sure. I'll find out for you :)
[12:18] <Utar> @Ironholds> I mean when you get to "Start Hello article" page with some link
[12:18] <Thehelpfulone> thanks
[12:18] <Utar> @Ironholds: then there is no history to go back
[12:18] <@Ironholds> Utar: ooh, interesting. Hangon.
[12:19] <@Ironholds> Utar: so you mean the "go back to where I came from" button?
[12:19] <Utar> I'm hanging on. In 2000 more years of hanging I will be called Stonehenge.
[12:20] <@Ironholds> heh!
[12:20] <Utar> @Ironholds: yes, when there is nowhere to go back
[12:20] <@Ironholds> yeah, that's inevitable, I think :S.
[12:20] <@Ironholds> but the chances of a new editor typing in the new URL without going anywhere first is..unlikely, I think
[12:20] <Utar> @Ironholds: I wonder if either it should move you to main page or tottaly not be there.
[12:21] <jorm> it should just go to the main page, if there's nothing in the history.
[12:21] <Thehelpfulone> I imagine this would be good for new users, but if this is what everyone will see when they try to create a page that doesn't exist in the namespace, I imagine it will be quite annoying, how would you disable it - user preference? give an option in small text to "disable" like we give the Xs for Central Notices?
[12:21] <Utar> @Ironholds: You mean it's probability is around 1 to million?
[12:21] <Utar> jorm: as i said
[12:21] <@Ironholds> Utar: around that ;p
[12:21] <@Ironholds> jorm: good idea.
[12:22] <@Ironholds> Thehelpfulone: so, it's bucketed
[12:22] <jorm> it was in the design document.
[12:22] <@Ironholds> long story short, nobody above autoconfirmed should see it
[12:22] <Utar> @Ironholds: But 1 to million probability means it will happen in 9 cases of 10!
[12:22] <@Ironholds> (if I'm remembering correctly)
[12:23] <@Ironholds> sorry, nobody who has created their account before launch
[12:23] <Utar> jorm: :D I said it first
[12:23] <@Ironholds> Utar: statistically speaking with our readers that is close to 500 people shouting at us
[12:23] <@Ironholds> (which makes this job really scary)
[12:24] <@Ironholds> okay, yes: nobody who has created their account before ACW is launched will see this
[12:24] <@Ironholds> and then we need to decide how it should be disabled - so, user preference, or anyone-above-autoconfirmed, or whatever.
[12:24] <@Ironholds> I am loathe to turn it into a preference, personally
[12:25] <Utar> @Ironholds: Read the Discworld, you Überwaldean.
[12:25] <@Ironholds> Utar: at least I'm not from Pseudopolis
[12:25] <+fabriceflorin> As a newbie editor, one thing that bugs me when I click on 'Create a draft' is that it takes me to a page that says 'Editing User:Fabrice Florin/Myagi'. As a newbie, I find this confusing. I would expect a different message at the top of that page: 'Creating new page:Myagi (in User:Fabrice Florin)'. http://ee-prototype.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Fabrice%20Florin/Myagi&action=edit
[12:26] <Utar> @Ironholds: Io will find you whenever you will go.
[12:26] <@Ironholds> fabriceflorin: an excellent point. I spent a big chunk of yesterday running through ideas to improve the drafting option with Ian.
[12:27] <@Ironholds> Utar: heh!
[12:27] <+fabriceflorin> Cool, Ironholds. Glad you are working on alternate wording with the team. And thanks for forgiving the fact that I am still coming up to speed on this project ;o)
[12:27] <Utar> @Ironholds: If I hit the "Skip this later" option in option 3 is tere a way to find it again?
[12:27] <@Ironholds> Utar: there isn't, which is annoying
[12:28] <@Ironholds> yesterday I actually ran around the office going "IT'S NOT WORKING! NONE OF IT IS WORKING!"
[12:28] <@Ironholds> "You turned it off"
[12:28] <@Ironholds> "....oh. Oops."
[12:28] <@Ironholds> the only way to do it is by manually deleting the cookie or waiting for it to expire :(
[12:28] <Utar> @Ironholds: what about deleting the caches<
[12:29] <@Ironholds> Utar: that also works, yeah
[12:29] * Pavel_WMDEE (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:29] <Utar> @Ironholds: in fact, the whole World is now clicking under that account so it is not stored on the server side because I see it
[12:30] * Pavel_WMDEE (~email@example.com) Quit (Client Quit)
[12:30] <+fabriceflorin> I have a similar comment as above about what happens when you click on 'Create this article myself', then 'Let's go'. I would expect it to say something like 'Creating new page: Myagi' (instead of: 'Editing Myagi')�. http://ee-prototype.wmflabs.org/w/index.php?title=Myagi&action=edit&acwbucket=reg&acwsource=
[12:31] <@Ironholds> fabriceflorin: an excellent point again. It would be fairly easy to change that, I would imagine
[12:31] <@Ironholds> really we should change it universally
[12:32] <Utar> @Ironholds: what about some line in the upper part of Draft screen wit helpful links?
[12:32] <+fabriceflorin> Yeah, your typical user tends to expect the words they click on to also appear at the top of the page they land on. So it seems like a good practice, if feasible.
[12:32] <@Ironholds> Utar: alsom on the books :). I'm plotting that stuff out later today
[12:32] <Utar> @Ironholds:"because those options should run don't want it-dunno how-maybe I know-am experienced
[12:32] <@Ironholds> (and we should hopefully have like, a default-included category or something that can be used so people can find it)
[12:33] <WereSpielchqrs> I'm uncomfortable with the idea of encouraging newbies to start articles in userspace sandboxes, whatever happened to collaborative editing and crowd sourcing?
[12:33] <Utar> @Ironholds: and in the second option you get the least help
[12:33] <Utar> which should we experience in the third one
[12:34] <jorm> ideally, we'll have a drafts workspace, and not have to use userspace.
[12:34] <@Ironholds> WereSpielchqrs: it doesn't preclude it, but the problem is the existing collaborative environments are...not fun for new editors
[12:34] <@Ironholds> so it makes sense to offer them a haven where they can create, and then move when they're comfortable
[12:35] <@Ironholds> particularly when we're fixing some Special:NewPages bugs so that moved articles will appear in the queue
[12:35] * mpeel (~mpeel@wikipedia/Mike-Peel) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:39] <@Ironholds> that may be a good moment to move on to New page Triage :)
[12:39] <+fabriceflorin> It's interesting to note that if I create a new page called Myagi, then go back to the Article Creation Landing page and try to 'Create a new page' -- it takes me directly to the page I created earlier, with no message at all. I would have expected a message to appear above that page, saying something like 'This page has already been created -- you are welcome to edit it if you like'. Again, this would help newbie editors understand what
[12:39] <+fabriceflorin> is going on. http://ee-prototype.wmflabs.org/wiki/Special:ArticleCreationLanding/Myagi
[12:39] <Utar> WereSpielchqrs: wake up!
[12:39] <WereSpielchqrs> The drawbacks of userpace drafts include not being able to do some of the edits that you do in mainspace. Categories for example aren't allowed because they make the draft appear in mainspace and not be a draft. Now some of that we could code around. So how about the draft space allows mainspace categories but only shows thim in the category if you are a registered editor who has opted in to seeing categories in both
[12:40] <@Ironholds> WereSpielchqrs: this is true, and supports the idea of a dedicated draft namespace
[12:41] <Utar> @Ironholds: and when editing the text "You have followed a link to a page that does not exist yet. To create the page, start typing in the box below (see the help page for more info). If you are here by mistake, click your browser's back button. " is not really coressponding with the porevious, too
[12:42] <WereSpielchqrs> Well I won't say I support the idea, I'd rather make mainspace more newbie friendly. But if you are going ahead with an incubator based system that would be one of the changes I'd hope for.
[12:43] <Utar> WereSpielchqrs: when preparing article, I am putting categories in nowiki tags (but which newbie would know that...)
[12:43] <+fabriceflorin> WereSpielchqrs: You make some good points about the drawbacks of encouraging userpspace drafts. Making mainspace more user friendly is definitely a main objective for us as well. This is great food for thought, and we will discuss this with our team …
[12:44] <@Ironholds> WereSpielchqrs: I think we all agree mainspace needs to be more friendly
[12:44] <@Ironholds> it's a question of what we do with the software while it is not friendly ;)
[12:44] <@Ironholds> Utar: also noted!
[12:45] <@Ironholds> WereSpielchqrs: I have a reply from Ian re your translate request, btw
[12:45] <WereSpielchqrs> Utar. Any Newbie who knew to do that would be prime target for C/U. But its a cool idea, could Hotcat be trained to do this when adding cats to draftspace?
[12:45] <@Ironholds> potted version; it's not impossible, but it sounds like a fair amount of work, and we probably can't fit it within the first development cycle
[12:45] <Utar> @Ironholds> I am mostly pointing at that "back button of you browser" which seems ridiculous when on the previous page Wikipedia had its own button for that
[12:46] <@Ironholds> Utar: yeah, it needs to be standardised. Noting down
[12:46] <@Ironholds> anyway: can we move on to new page triage?
[12:46] <@Ironholds> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_Page_Triage
[12:46] <WereSpielchqrs> I'm not surprised that the translate bit would be complex, I can live with that being in phase II
[12:47] <Utar> WereSpielchqrs: in fact, IMO, you can teach Meadiwiki to look at tags (of categories) in different namespaces differently
[12:47] <@Ironholds> WereSpielchqrs: well, we'll stick it in the product backlog
[12:47] <@Ironholds> that doesn't mean it'll get into phase II, just that it'll be investigated and researched and maybe included in phase II
[12:48] <Utar> @Ironholds: move on, I just note translatewiki is waiting for another your lorry full of things to translate
[12:48] <@Ironholds> (depending on how complex it is. Like, if we could code it, but research discovers that it would take the entire 2nd development cycle...not going to happen)
[12:48] <@Ironholds> Utar: sorry?
[12:49] <Utar> @Ironholds: sorry, about translation complexity WereSpielchqrs talked
[12:49] <@Ironholds> ahh
[12:49] <@Ironholds> okay, so moving on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_Page_Triage is the enwiki page for new page triage; discussions are being centred there :)
[12:49] <@Ironholds> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NewPageTriage-ListView.png is the first prototype of the listview - unless jorm, you have an updated one I'm missing?
[12:49] <Utar> I wonder what all those people on the rigth are doing...
[12:49] <jorm> no, that's where we are right now.
[12:50] <+fabriceflorin> And here's the latest mockup from the one and only Jorm: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/PageTriage-ListView-Whole.png
[12:51] <+fabriceflorin> Sorry, this may not be the latest mockup after all … but you get the point, we keep experimenting with new design approaches.
[12:51] <@Ironholds> so, the logic of this structure:
[12:52] <@Ironholds> the current page gives you next to no information about an article. you can't see most of the important data about it or its creator, and you have no real way of identifying what other patrollers have been doing with it
[12:52] <@Ironholds> that's something we want to change; we need to surface more data about articles, their creators and their patrollers. It makes patrolling an easier experience, and it helps provide a degree of oversight
[12:52] <@Ironholds> we can also use all this data to make more complex filtering
[12:52] <Utar> do those red-green-black notings on the left side mean what have already happen or is it what system things should happen
[12:53] <@Ironholds> Utar: what has already happened :). Although if it is confusing we need to talk about how to work that.
[12:53] <WereSpielchqrs> We currently get a dozen articles on my screen, this just gives 8
[12:53] <+howief> WereSpielchqrs: that's a tradeoff
[12:54] <@Ironholds> you can have more articles or more data
[12:54] <+howief> right now, you don't get as many articles since each article takes up more vertical space
[12:54] <Utar> @Ironholds: at first I thought it is somethoing like "this page doesn§t have interpunction so let me mark it red"
[12:54] <Utar> automated ideeas
[12:54] * frakir is now known as Frakir
[12:54] <@Ironholds> Utar: something we should take into account, then. We need to make this intuitive
[12:54] <+howief> we can look at compressing things, but as Ironholds says, if we want more data in a digestible manner, we'll need to take up more space
[12:54] <@Ironholds> (actually there are some problems with automated pre-filtering that lead to legal getting...vexed. But meh.)
[12:55] <WereSpielchqrs> More data I appreciate, but this also has more whitespace.
[12:55] <Utar> @Ironholds: some legend should work, or at least a text showing up when you move mouse over the icon will work too
[12:55] <+fabriceflorin> It's conceivable that we could provide different user views of that list page (e.g. compact vs. full view), or a 'Show Info/Hide Info' toggle button.
[12:55] <@Ironholds> WereSpielchqrs: the idea is to avoid clutter. Note that you will get fewer articles in the same space, but not necessarily an 8/12 ratio
[12:56] <@Ironholds> it's entirely dependent on things like screen size and resolution
[12:56] <Utar> in fact, some link to help and FAQ for thi should be put in some corner
[12:56] <+howief> but for the same screen size, the new list view (as currently designed) will have fewer articles in one view
[12:56] <@Ironholds> Utar: totally agreed, and noting down
[12:56] <Utar> for example put one "?" icon under the View detailed statistics
[12:56] <jorm> no, that's the latest mockup.
[12:56] <+fabriceflorin> Hi Utar, you are absolutely right that we need a help button on this page.
[12:56] <+howief> i'm not sure whether it's a good thing, but once we have it as a prototype on enwp, I think we'll find out pretty quickly what people prefer
[12:57] <+howief> they'll either use the list view or go back Special:NewPages
[12:57] <Utar> +fabriceflorin: it is getting complex
[12:57] <WereSpielchqrs> Preferences that let you select which info you want would help, also some info could be done with highlight colours
[12:57] <+howief> WereSpielchqrs: yes
[12:57] <+howief> you can imagine a pretty detailed preference system, kind of like gmail has for its inbox
[12:57] <jorm> there are only 8 on that screen because of the size of the mockup. the number of articles that will appear will be based on your screen resolution.
[12:58] * +howief (~firstname.lastname@example.org) Quit (Quit: howief)
[12:58] * jorm would prefer to avoid a lot of preferences, if at all possible.
[12:58] * Tiptoety (~Tiptoety@wikipedia/Tiptoety) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:58] <Utar> @Ironholds: I would make another tab in Settings for this page
[12:58] <Utar> how detailed you want it
[12:58] <@Ironholds> Utar: in the preferences, you mean?
[12:58] <Utar> yeah
[12:58] <@Ironholds> I would avoid that if possible
[12:59] <@Ironholds> the preferences menu is like the elephant graveyard of wikipedia
[12:59] <+fabriceflorin> Yes, Jorm, I agree that we want to keep user preferences to an absolute minimum, as a rule of thumb. But if there are a lot of requests for screen customization, there may be a middle ground similar to what Gmail offers.
[12:59] <@Ironholds> but there are other places we can stick settings or filters
[12:59] * preilly (~preilly@wikipedia/preilly) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[12:59] <@Ironholds> it could just be a tickbox under "advanced" at Special:NewPages or something. We'll talk about it.
[12:59] * preilly (~preilly@wikipedia/preilly) has joined #wikimedia-office
[12:59] <Utar> @Ironholds: ok, for example "i want the old look back" wil lbe sufficient for now
[13:00] <jorm> if you want the old look back, go to Special:NewPages
[13:00] <WereSpielchqrs> I like the idea of setting preferences by displying a userbox
[13:00] <jorm> done.
[13:00] <Utar> or will this go side by side with NEwPages?
[13:00] <jorm> it's parallel.
[13:00] <Utar> jorm: ah
[13:00] <Utar> ok
[13:00] <+fabriceflorin> In any case, all these suggestions are wonderful, Utar and WereSpielchqrs -- as always, this community review process is incredibly helpful for improving the user experience based on your feedback.
[13:01] <@Ironholds> or, it will initially be parallel
[13:01] * badon (~badon@pdpc/supporter/active/badon) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[13:01] <@Ironholds> we're going to have the working prototype on enwiki as soon as we have stuff to show you
[13:01] <@Ironholds> so people can check how it works in practise instead of trying to fix flaws with screenshots and features requirements
[13:02] <WereSpielchqrs> Thnx. Are we getting NOINDEX until patrolled and a separate colour for deletion tagged in phase I
[13:02] <@Ironholds> WereSpielchqrs: the first is in an RfC we launch on Monday
[13:02] * howief (~email@example.com) has joined #wikimedia-office
[13:02] <@Ironholds> (distinct from Phase I)
[13:02] <@Ironholds> and the second, I believe so but will need to check in on
[13:02] <@Ironholds> one of my tasks later today is to build up a proper list of "these are the features in phase I" and deploy it to enwiki
[13:02] <Utar> @Ironholds: eh, what does newest-oldest option mean?
[13:03] <Utar> it says "untriaged ones"
[13:03] <Utar> so how can we already see what hjappened to them?
[13:03] <+fabriceflorin> To give you a sense of timeline, we have now started design and development for a two-month cycle that should deliver a working prototype in coming weeks. We plan to do four two-week sprints, starting this week, and hope to have a prototype to show you by the end of the month, if all goes well.
[13:04] <@Ironholds> Utar: so, newest/oldest changes the view to show you the newest articles in the queue, or the oldest ones
[13:04] <@Ironholds> depending on which one you want to work on
[13:04] <Utar> @Ironholds: I mean in this queue are also triaged ones?
[13:04] <@Ironholds> indeed. There is a checkbox at the top marked "triaged" which will turn it on or off
[13:04] <Utar> already checcked
[13:05] <@Ironholds> which is basically what happens with Special:NewPages now: you can just display patrolled, or display all
[13:05] <Utar> @Ironholds: so how far to history will oldest go? 2001?
[13:05] <Utar> or the oldest not checked?
[13:05] <@Ironholds> Utar: so we're removing the current 30-day limit and replacing it with two things
[13:06] <@Ironholds> for patrolled/triaged/whatever articles, they will remain in the queue for 60 days
[13:06] <@Ironholds> and then vanish as they do now - we don't want to clog it with work that has already been done, right?
[13:06] <@Ironholds> for unpatrolled/untriaged/whatever articles, they will remain in the list indefinitely
[13:06] <@Ironholds> because at the same time, everything should be checked
[13:06] * howief (~firstname.lastname@example.org) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[13:06] <Utar> @Ironholds: and when they passs out?
[13:07] <@Ironholds> Utar: sorry?
[13:07] <Utar> @Ironholds: ok, you have here 398 untriaged
[13:07] <@Ironholds> (actually this raises a question I shall poke Ian with - is it 60 days old, or 60 days as a patrolled article?)
[13:07] <@Ironholds> Utar: sure
[13:07] <Utar> does it mean there is total of, say, 500 total?
[13:07] <Utar> or those 398?
[13:07] <@Ironholds> ooh, good point
[13:08] <Utar> What must happen for an article to get out of this list?
[13:08] <@Ironholds> we should really think about displaying both
[13:08] <@Ironholds> it has to be triaged or patrolled. When that happens, it is marked as "done". Then it waits for 60 days, then vanishes
[13:08] <WereSpielchqrs> Not having unpatroled articles enter mainspace would be good. How are you getting on with the bugzilla requests re moves from userspace to mainspace and redirects becoming articles
[13:08] <@Ironholds> which is actually the same as things (ideally) work now, except at the moment it's 30 days
[13:08] <Utar> "Then it waits for 60 days" thats the answer
[13:08] <@Ironholds> WereSpielchqrs: worked out how to do them, and I insisted we fit both into phase I
[13:09] <Utar> ok
[13:09] <Utar> but
[13:09] <Utar> So now I got how they are moving out of list but this look is a bit confusing"
[13:09] <WereSpielchqrs> Good. Some sort of reality check as to how many there are would be reassuring
[13:10] <Utar> it says "there is 398 untriaged" and just beneath it "Vieveng: newest / oldest" (OF THEM)
[13:10] <@Ironholds> Utar: ahhh!
[13:10] <@Ironholds> so the problem is it looks like it should just be displaying untriaged, when it's not?
[13:10] <Utar> @Ironholds: yeah, thats why i thought the red-green is autmatic
[13:11] <@Ironholds> Utar: gotcha; noted down :)
[13:11] <Utar> @Ironholds: so now to get to oldest untriaged you switch triaged off and hit oldest?
[13:11] <@Ironholds> essentially
[13:11] <@Ironholds> although we don't know what the default view will be yet
[13:12] <Utar> @Ironholds: when I move that scroll bar down, will i see the same as after hitting Oldest or is it divided into several pages?
[13:12] <WereSpielchqrs> Um the default view will be newest won't it? I thougt tat at least was settled
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[13:12] * brion (~firstname.lastname@example.org) Quit (Changing host)
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[13:13] <Utar> @Ironholds: ...maybe according to those days down there
[13:13] * Narodnik (~Severin@wikipedia/Skomorokh) has joined #wikimedia-office
[13:13] <@Ironholds> Utar: what do you mean, sorry?
[13:14] <@Ironholds> WereSpielchqrs: most likely; I meant the combination of patrolled-and-unpatrolled, or just unpatrolled, or just...and so on.
[13:14] <Utar> @Ironholds: you have a scroillbar on the rigth side
[13:14] <Utar> when you move it down
[13:14] <@Ironholds> it'll continue displaying the pages based on whatever filters and settings you have input, yeah
[13:14] <@Ironholds> just like it works at the moment
[13:14] <Utar> will you see the oldest (= triaged around 60 days or untriaged ones) ones
[13:14] <Utar> ?
[13:15] <@Ironholds> ahh, if you've set it to show newest?
[13:15] <@Ironholds> you will, but you'll have to scroll a bloody long way before you arrive ;p
[13:15] <+fabriceflorin> Okay, guys, gotta go now. It's always a pleasure speaking with you. Thanks so much for helping us create a better user experience on Wikipedia. Hope to speak with you next week. More to come …
[13:15] <Utar> @Ironholds: so the scroll bar will get smaller as you move it?
[13:15] <WereSpielchqrs> OK shifting from patrolled and unpatrolled to just unpartolled would be a worthwhile change, apart from Kudpung I can't imagine many people are there looking at patrolled articles
[13:16] <Utar> because now it doesnt seem to be able to scroll through more than 400 articles
[13:16] <@Ironholds> Utar: because it's loading more pages? Quite possibly; jorm is sorta your man here
[13:16] <WereSpielchqrs> By fabrice
[13:16] <@Ironholds> looks like I should pop out as well. What fabriceflorin said; after the awesome that is/was AFT5, it is great to be working on another project where we can bring people into it and get them involved
[13:16] <+fabriceflorin> Bye, WereSpielchqrs, thanks for your good suggestions!
[13:16] <@Ironholds> if any of you have any questions - the talkpage and my email are your friends :)
[13:16] <jorm> the size of the scrollbar there shouldn't be taken to mean anything other than "here's a scrollbar"
[13:17] <@Ironholds> and thanks for all the great ideas! Ironholds out
Session Close: Wed Mar 14 13:17:25 2012