Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Lombard Wikipedia

Proposal for closing Lombard wikipedia

Ending due to no reasons for closure. Result: KEEP --Edward Chernenko 18:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

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I'm asking to temporary close the Lombard wikipedia for the following reasons:

1. the management is too much oligarchical and ostracistical, therefore it is not possible to develop constructive arguments
2. the approach to some subjects does not correspond to the vision of Lombard culture, and uses literal translations from other languages
3. some neologisms are completely invented without motivation, drawing inspiration from other European languages, while suitable Lombard terms already exist
4. the admins of Lombard wikipedia have invented a new orthography, that is neither historically motivated nor corresponding to the real pronunciation
5. Lombard can't be considered an only language, because problems of understanding exist between speaking from different zones (there are at least one language per province)
6. Lombard has links in the article called Lombard langauge that go to the English Wikipedia.

See cancellation of my comments in [1]. I've been banned from the Lombard wikipedia for my proposals. User:Codice1000

Er, it all looks like a matter to be discussed, and nothing like a valid cause to freeze (not to say "closing") a wiki. Go on and draw attention elsewhere, please. - εΔω 11:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

See point 1. User:Codice1000

In order to see point 1, please use words that are understood. GerardM 13:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

• To the kind attention of ladies and gentlemen reading this page: please take a look at the user page of the above user: lmo:User:Codice1000.lmo, where reasons for banning him are clear. English translation are available upon request. A vote took place as well.--clamengh 15:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

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Second proposal

I ask for the closure of the Lombard Wikipedia. I think it is a strange monster, maintained in an artificial life by a very small group of users that imposes its POV not only on the contents, but even on the language used.

I know that another request like this was made more than one year ago, without success. It was labeled as vandalism, and I still have not understood why. I'm trying to ask again only because I think that conditions are now worse than then, and lmo.wiki has not the requested characteristics for a Wikimedia project.

Arguments in support the closure of Lombard wikipedia (lmo.wiki):

• absolute absence of a Lombard language;
• as a result, artificial language used;
• dispotic behaviour of its administrator;
• absolute anti-italian attitude;
• very small real size.

Absence of a Lombard language

There are no valid sources stating the existence af a common, unified, standard Lombard language. All linguistic studies about lombard linguistics have always examinated every dialect separately. For example, the Milanese dialect has its own traditions, literature, dictionaries, theater works, and so the Ticinese dialect (spoken in Switzerland), the Brianzöö (Brianza, Brianzolo in Italian), the Bergamasque (the one of the mountains, the one of the city, and the one of the lowland), Brescian, Cremasque, Laghée (used in the upper Como Lake) and so on for all the (at least a dozen) remaining dialect and variants of the Lombard linguistic family, spreaded from upper Valtellina in the extreme northeast to Apennines in the southwest.

Even the western/eastern distinction used on lmo.wiki, at least for the main page (western and eastern), is artificial and doesn't express all the variability in the Lombard dialects. It simplifies too much.

If I remember well, some months ago the Akan editions of Wikipedia was closed because [...]is now considered a family of languages, and not a single language. (List_of_Wikipedias#Deprecated.2C_moved_and_other). Akan has identified with an unic ISO code (ak), like Lombard, but, despite this, is not a single language. And so is Lombard.

Artificial language used

A wikipedia edition, even the smallest one, needs some service pages; if Lombard is a melting pot of well-identified dialects, which one is to be used? In the beginning of this edition, a particular Western Lombard dialect was used, probably an insubric one (maybe the dialect of Como or of upper Brianza area).

The real masters of the Lombard wikipedia, Clamengh and 10caart, aware of this weakness, decided, emarginating and/or blocking all their oppositors, to create ex novo a strange Koiné Lumbarda (or Koiné Lombarda, I can't remember well), and to adopt it as a kind of lingua franca. (see here)

Clamengh and 10caart are both fans of Catalan and Occitan languages, and so they took the decision to make Lombard converge on them. Since then, all their effort were aiming to create this koiné with lot of Catalan and Occitan influences, on grammar and words. He invented lot of words, never used or heard in any corner of Lombardy or Canton Ticino:

• teratremul instead of teremott (earthquake, in Catalan teratremol)
• üsüari instead of uteent or utent (user, in Catalan usuari)
• dia instead of dì or dé (day, in Catalan dia): concerning this word, I can report a brief dialogue [2] between them, in which Clamengh was enthusiastic for having found, in a small poesy written in the dialect of Mantua, dating back to the half of sixteenth century (!!!!!!!), the word dia. Here Clamengh says to 10caart: ...we could use dia instead of dì or dé, to unify the language... What? We could use? One more proof they're inventing a language, there on lmo.wiki.

Clamengh stated once he had the dream of writing a wikipedia in Cisalpine tongue; well, all the dialects and languages of northern Italy are closely related among them and, at the same time, they are quite far from standard Italian. But they are not the same language, neither a standard Cisalpine tongue has never existed. Clamengh aims to this. I think he achieved some results so far, provided that only some days ago he said to an anonymous user [3] to avoid changing in the ortography of an article. No lombard can understand this message, made with 20% a western lombard dialect, 20% an eastern one, 30% Catalan and 30% Occitan. Strange ortography, never seen in the literature. Who is him to invent a way to write a not existing language, and adopt it? Where are we? On the Clamengh wikipedia? Are we writing in Clamenghese language, writing it with the Clamengh standard?

Just have a look at the banner for this fundraising. What language is it? I was born in Lombardy, I grew up in Lombardy, and I have never seen such a language. It is so strange that another Lombard user has asked for more information. [4]

Well, nobody but them has never heard speaking or seen writing this "Lombard", and nobody but them has not even heard speaking about its creation. I think to Esperanto, Volapük or even Sindarin or Quenya in Tolkien's world. We are assisting to the creation of a new artificial language, "on air" from Lombard wikipedia. Stay tuned, guys. Stay tuned.

They, together with Moch, stated this officially, by creating a category) and a template) in which they say they support the creation of a Lombard koiné. Creation? Of what?

On Wikipedia projects, original researches about contents are strictly forbidden: so, if possible, more strictly forbidden should be the original researches about the language used to write it.

Dispotic behaviour

Clamengh and 10caart have been keeping a constant, steady behaviour aiming to eliminate every users had a different way to think lmo.wiki.

Have a look at the block log (lmo:Special:Ipblocklist).

Just some examples:

1. His first work, the blocking of user Codice1000. Blocked infinite only because he expressed some critics to this way to manage the languages and inventing new words. I know he committed some small vandalisms, that anyway usually deserve only a short block.
2. Clamengh blocked infinite (accuse: vandalism) the IP 84.222.16.56.84 only because he dared to put, in some unsourced articles, a template stating Quell articol o sezion chì el pò vegh denter ricerch originaj o robb minga cert. Per cortesia jutii Wikipedia mettendegh denter i riferiment. Varda la pagina de discussion per savè. (This article or section can contain original researches or not demonstrated statement. Please help Wikipedia by inserting references. Have a look to the talk page to know how to do.). I still haven't understood where is the vandalism.
3. Same sad show with the IP 213.140.6.109; two edits, trying to make people understand that there are no certainties about writing in Lombard. Infinite.
4. Again, IP 84.222.8.141

I must say that the only right block is mine. I began my adventure on the Wiki world right on lmo.wiki. Only some months have been enough to realize how false and empty was the project, as organized in that way, and how fragile were its bases. I had a bad reaction to their provocations. Clamengh and 10caart refused to answer to all our questions (our is referred to every people that have expressed doubts about this way to operate, and they are much more than the three users that defended it), and I fell in the trap. No complaints, it was my fault. I have to say, anyway, that I had a behaviour like this only there on lmo.wiki, given the unbreathable atmosphere. I am active on it.wiki, where I have never had a problem and am sysop since November 8.

Absolute anti-italian attitude

I really don't know why, but on Lombard wikipedia speaking Italian is strongly deprecated. Even if a user can only speak Italian, he/she is strongly invited to translate his/her post. This doesn't sound very wiki to me. Remember that every native Lombard speaker can speak Italian. Owing to the absence of a real community, this form of racism has penetrated well deep into lmo.wiki.

It is a quite curious thing, given that Clamengh and 10caart both stated that they were born in Italy. Moreover, Clamengh had once a dialogue in a perfect standard Italian at the friulian wikipedia ([5]). Here he apologize to write in Italian, before writing in Italian. Maybe he forgot the language? No... nobody can wholly forget a language... it's like riding a bycicle, once you learned, you can not forget. That's greater than my understanding capability.

Small size

I am well aware that Lombard wikipedia has now more than 100.000 articles, but I must point out that the great majority are only nearly empty, bot generated stubs (check out the Depth value on our list_of_Wikipedias).

lmo.wiki had some period of dramatic boom, like a volcano, during the last spring, summer, and eventually this November, when the total number of articles grew from some thousand to twenty, thirty, fifty, eighty and eventually one hundred thousand. After this, no signs of life different from some interwiki bot.

So, IMHO, very few real damage will come from a closure.

I apologize for mistakes, but I am only en-2. For any communication, please contact me here. Thank you, --Remulazz 16:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Arguments in favour / against

• Strongly support I have been living in Lombardy, in Milan, for nearly 40 years: I assure you that a unique language called "Lombard" do not exist. Maybe we can start a milanese or bergamasco wikipedia. --DracoRoboter 17:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly support I was born in Lombardy (close to Milan) and I work in Bergamo. AFAIK, such a language doesn't exist. Besides, lmo.wiki is deeply involved in politic (they're exploiting an encyclopedia to spread separatist ideas). Jollyroger 19:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly support I live in Tessin but this Wikipedia is not workable. --Ilario 19:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly support I was born in Somma Lombardo (nice, isn't it?) and graduated at the University of Insubria but I would not dare write a single word in a language that I can't recognise as my motherlanguage: that Koinè is not spoken in my county. --Xaura 19:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly support. From "request for new languages" (deleted page), 2 years ago: "[..] even though SIL, ISO and someone else states that Lombard is a language, I, living in Lombardia!, know very well that Lombard doesn't exist; we've Milanese in Milan, Bresciano in Brescia and so on, but not a unique language. So please stop with this nonsense projects! Frieda 10:40, 19 November 2005 (UTC) ". I didn't change my mind. Frieda 19:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)