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Scanner and Professional Video Camera


Here are the details of the proposed items:


Canon DR-7090C
Capable of scanning at a high speed, double sided
Both capable of ADF and Flatbed
Width: 139.7 mm to 304.8 mm, Length: 128 mm to 630 mm
Speed: 70 ppm (Simplex), 88 ipm (Duplex)
Paper feed: Max. 100 sheets (80 g/m2) or stack 13 mm
Reason for Choosing this model : Capable of scanning high volume of documents in high quality in high speed which is needed to speed up article and image processing

Canon DR2020U
Capable of scanning at a high speed, double sided
Both capable of ADF and Flatbed
Width: 140 - 216mm (5.5 - 8.5in.), Length: 100 - 356mm (3.9 - 14.0in.)
Speed: 20ppm (Simplex), 40ipm (Duplex)
Power Consumption Max. 33.0W (Scanning), Max. 3.7W (Sleep mode) Power Turned Off (0.5W)
Reason for Choosing this model : Cheaper alternative to the first model

Video Camera

Canon XF 105
1920 X 1080 FULL HD, 4:2:2, 50Mps, 10x Zoom
Accessories include tripod, video light, battery pack
Reason for choosing this model : lightweight, high definition and cinema-like output

Both of which were quoted by Canon Marketing Philippines. Should there be queries please contact me butch@wikimedia.org.ph --Exec8 01:47, 10 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

Please post links to the products in question so we know what they look like. :) --Sky Harbor (talk) 02:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)\\Reply
The specification are available when you google search on them or visit Canon USA or Canon PH - --Exec8 09:48, 10 August 2011 (UTC)Reply
This model has been removed from the proposal. --Exec8 23:32, 15 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

Victoria's questions


It's always reassuring to see an active chapter. But I have some questions about both (2010-11 and 2011-12) grants. First of all, it would be great if you state the amount underspent on the first grant, which was funded in the fiscal year 2010-11.--Victoria 10:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC) Reply

Hi Victoria! I'm Roel, WMPH's Treasurer. I'll be glad to go over with you all the financial aspects of this grant proposal. We thank you too for scrutinizing this, as it will provide us an opportunity to actually explain how and why, after our deliberations, have come up with the said figures. For your reference these are our chapter's grant funded projects summary. As of the latest (2011-08-19), we have an underspending of ₱19,238.64 ($451.40).--Roel (Talk | contribs) 21:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

  • Permit to launch nationwide fundraising campaign from the DSWD (2010-11 and 2011-12)

How much money did you collect as a result of 2010-11 fundraiser? Is it required to renew the permit annually? (2010-11 and 2011-12)--Victoria 10:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC) Reply

The chapter hasn't participated yet in the fundraiser. We need to register in two agencies to get it even started. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 05:51, 20 August 2011 (UTC)Reply
Yes, the permit must be renewed every year. We haven't gotten one yet, but we intend to get one. --Sky Harbor (talk) 06:23, 21 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

Do you know that because of the WMF decision the chapters, except the German will not participate in the Annual Fundraiser through the site banner ?--Victoria 07:59, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
We are most definitely aware of it and it has thrown off our plans to join the fundraiser within 1-2 years, but we need the permit for all other fundraising work. We strongly believe that the chapter should in time become less reliant on WMF grants as we begin to seek core funding from donors in the Philippines, and so we hope that can happen when we get the paperwork done. Much as the Foundation has its reasons for rescinding agreements with the other chapters, it does pose a problem with how we can raise funds in the future, as we stand to lose out on the funds Filipino donors give to the annual fundraiser. --Sky Harbor (talk) 12:17, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
How much did you fundraise locally last year and what are your projected figures this year?--Victoria 07:33, 6 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
The chapter hasn't conducted or participated in any local fundraiser either. Just like Roel said, we need to get a fundraising permit from local authorities before we can even start a fundraiser. --Jojit (talk) 07:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
  • Production of Wikimedia promotional materials for distribution: P25, 000 (around $560).

Your report states that only $21.14 were spent for the production of Wikimedia promotional materials, so why a large sum required in the 2011-12?--Victoria 10:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC) Reply

That's right only $21.14 was actually spent last year for that. As we had to rely only on our personal printers to print our brochures then, which left so much to be desired in its quality. We now intend to have this commercially printed in the eight Philippine languages which have Wikipedia projects, in the foresight it can also be printed in the four other Philippine languages currently in the incubator stage. With our current push to expand our reach, this will be very indispensable.--Roel (Talk | contribs) 21:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

The Wikipedia Promotions/caravans will be mostly school-based activities that will be designed to promote Wikipedia. The caravan will be going around campuses not only in Manila where the chapter right now is currently concentrated. This promotional caravan is geared to exploit the ready pool of students to be exposed to Wikimedia and its projects and entice them to become members, and harness them to become active contributors especially to Philippine language Wikipedias. We intend to bring these in the heartland of the languages where they are spoken--Roel (Talk | contribs) 21:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

The professional services we need to annually avail now would be for a certified public accountant who would have to audit our finances at the end of our fiscal year as required by our laws. We also have earmarked a part of this to avail the legal services of an intellectual property rights expert. This is to clarify the Philippines' copyright and intellectual property rights laws, which is currently interpreted in Wikimedia Commons as not having "Freedom of panorama," despite a contrary opinion of a lawyer we have casually consulted. Should the opinion of the lawyer we have consulted be reinforced by the opinion of an intellectual property and copyrights expert and be provided with the jurisprudence covering it, it will enable the chapter to take part in the GLAM project. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 21:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

You have a point. We do not intend to veer away from the free Wikimedia software we can readily avail. The Web development expense will be used for the hosting our own website, where we would direct our partners to, which may not just be edited like an ordinary article. At the moment, we have solicited the help of 2 volunteers to create our website for us and they have given their commitment to accomplish this on their free-time. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 21:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

Are you sure you need $480 for this? I don't think the hosting costs so much.--Victoria 07:59, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

I'm actually having second thoughts on this, we can live by with $200. This will then be allocated for the 3 year renewal of our domain registrations for www.wikimedia.org.ph and www.wikimedia.ph (in fear of cyber-squatting). Please fill me on this, just in case you know if WMAU uses WMF's server for the hosting of it's chapter website?--Roel (Talk | contribs) 06:20, 5 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
Not WMAU, but some other chapters do (like WMUK, WMUA and WMPT). However, should we choose to ask for hosting from the Foundation, we can't use our domain names for the website (instead the website will be a Wikimedia subdomain, a la ph.wikimedia.org), and the content will be subject to the Foundation's purview. Personally, having independent hosting allows the chapter greater freedom to tailor its website as the chapter sees fit, especially since it's in our interest that we be able to maintain versions of the site in several languages, something which a Foundation-hosted website will not be able to do effectively. --Sky Harbor (talk) 05:26, 6 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

This may sound absurd but a considerable amount of this will be used to purchase local language dictionaries which will be used to help enhance the writers in Philippine language Wikipedias. The heavy use of English in Philippine media has wrought havoc to the familiarity of a lot of Filipinos in their native language/s. It has become a syndrome to speak in the local language peppered with a lot of English words if not phrases.--Roel (Talk | contribs) 21:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

  • Bearing in mind that you already have a laptop, how can you justify the requirement for an expensive equipment such as a tablet ($1,195), digital SLR camera (1,905) "and" HDV Camcorder? (1,430)--Victoria 10:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

Great question. It's true, the chapter currently owns two netbooks which have provided us mobility in facilitating our documentation, where ever we meet, as they were primarily intended for that. We realized though the limitation of the netbooks which do not possess the necessary system specifications for us to seamlessly run software and presentations which draw more attention. It is also difficult to carry it with an LCD projector that we have acquired through the grant as well, just for us to make these presentations, especially when we would be in one-on-one meetings with our prospective partners or targeted donors, and that's where we plan to use a tablet.
The digital SLR camera we have preferred that comes with accessories like a water-proof casing will provide us capability to shoot the country's landscapes and underwater beauty. The specifications of the camera will be suitable to to cover the country's UNESCO Heritage sites which also includes the Tubattaha Reef Marine park, as well as the Verde Island pass, which is considered the center of the world's marine biodiversity. Rest assured, we won't be limited to these.
The HDV camcorder, will be used mostly to record oral traditions (tales, songs) of indigenous communities in the Philippines. Also, it has become a practice to video-document our meetings and events we participate in. Currently we utilize personal equipment to accomplish this, though it's availability cannot be always guaranteed.--Roel (Talk | contribs) 21:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

(Thank you for your answers, probably, more questions to follow)--Victoria 10:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the detailed explanation but wouldn't a laptop/notebook be better than a tablet, which usually has limited capabilities?--Victoria 07:59, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
In terms of processor power, yes, you can do more on a laptop than on a tablet but we are looking for portability and ease of use, which a tablet can offer. As mentioned by Butch (Exec8) below, the Kapihan, an informal meet-up with Filipino Wikipedians, partners and prospective members, is usually held at a coffee shop and we can't bring a projector there because it's forbidden and too bulky to bring such equipment. Since we can't use a projector at the meet-up for presentation, the tablet will be utilized for presentation. Based on experience at our meetings, it is not convenient and not easy to present using a laptop because the laptop body is an obstruction. In this case, a touchscreen tablet can be used like a digital cue card or flip board. Aside from those meetings, a tablet is an advantage on our organization. It can be used as a navigation tool on our Wikipedia Takes the City project or other related projects that require travel. We can also encourage other tablet users to read and edit Wikipedia on their own gadgets. --Jojit (talk) 04:16, 6 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Whew! This is like college thesis defense. :) --Roel (Talk | contribs) 21:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)Reply

If it was a college thesis defense, you'd have had a very high mark as a result of it: you are well prepared, understand the subject and give very clear answers :)--Victoria 07:59, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
  • Speaking about answers, the last question. You've mentioned that you'd printed brochures on your printer, probably, this explains the amount of the office supplies required. You've also mentioned that the resulting material wasn't great (and I presume have taken a long time to make). Wouldn't it be easier and (hopefully not much more expensive) to order this kind of brochures to be printed by a professional service?--Victoria 07:59, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Much of the office supplies cost, as answered below is earmarked for a lateral filing cabinet around $300. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 06:30, 5 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Discussion on Supporting Hardware


Since most of our work are mobile, we need devices that are easy to assemble and disassemble. In many activities like Wikipedia Takes the City, meetings with the academe and professionals, most of their venues does not have amenities that support the event.
1. A pocket wifi Router (manufactured by Huawei Technologies) would give us a help getting our portable computers wifi connection. Many establishments are not wifi ready and many urbanized areas in the Philippines support 3G technology. Internet is important in showing Wikipedia.
2. A media player (Western Digital WD Live) would help us in doing media presentations during exhibits, seminars without using a portable computer. Let me cite an example. In the Y4iT exhibit last year, we used the portable computers for our guestbook and live use of wikipedia and borrowed a media player and connect it at the projector to project images, slides and videos. The media player is very small, it can fit in a pouch bag.
3. The tablet would be used for small, coffee shop meetings where projectors are not allowed. We are planning to use 10-11 inch tablets for meetings. The netbook we are using are for typing minutes and recording for our video stream.
4. The camera will be used solely by the organization for event documentation, and high quality still images for wikipedia and other wikiprojects to be uploaded to wikimedia commons.
5. video camera/ camcorder will be used also to document events, recording for video tutorials, and other motion images like Philippine dance, cultural presentations to be archived at the wikimedia commons.
6. The scanner (Automatic Document Feeder, Duplex and support Folio/A3 sizes) will be used to speed up article creation by getting sources from public domain copyleft books, journals and other materials.

Should there be additional queries please let us know. ---Exec8 00:08, 3 September 2011 (UTC) (Butch of Wikimedia Philippines) Reply

Let me also add, the hardware will help us fulfill and see into fruition of a lot of projects that we are now itching to kick-off. The timing is about right, as we have more and more people expressing their interest in joining the organization. We will now have enough manpower to go around and carry out our projects. We are now very eager to begin exploratory talks with museums and libraries in the country, however, what is keeping us from beginning such GLAM related projects is the lack of equipment. It will be very embarrassing and quite difficult, should we obtain their approval (they have expressed interest in casual conversations with them), to implement such projects if we cannot show our capability. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 05:33, 5 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Office Rental and Maintenance


Firstly, this is a good application and it's always nice to see chapters coming up with a plan for establishing and professionalising themselves! I have a question regarding the "Office Rental and Maintenance" item. You've requested $560 for this. This seems rather low, especially in comparison to the "Office Supplies", which is almost as much. Can you elaborate a little on the sort of space that is to be rented and why the cost is so low relative to everything else? Craig Franklin 03:11, 3 September 2011 (UTC).Reply

Hi Craig. We have a low budget for the office because we have an existing contract with a virtual office provider where we pay around $20/month for the use of the office, so this allows us to maintain an office for at least two more years. It's not an actual office: we don't have enough manpower yet to get our own office space, and so we're relying on a little outsourcing for this purpose. At the same time, if we were to have an actual office, it would be hard for us to justify the cost: office space in Manila, especially in the city where our virtual office is located, does not come cheap. --Sky Harbor (talk) 06:15, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

The virtual office lease is a bargain...well we love haggling. The reason why the office supply costs as much (this year) is we intend to purchase a lateral filing cabinet (≈ $300) which we can (after some bargaining) put in the office. This is very ideal to have a central repository of documents and equipment.--Roel (Talk | contribs) 05:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Ah, that makes perfect sense. I would gently suggest that you clarify in the grant that it's a "virtual office" (or even give a brief description of what that entails for those not familiar with the concept) in the grant to avoid confusion. Other than that, I think this grant checks out and I'm happy to recommend it proceeds. Craig Franklin 12:27, 14 September 2011 (UTC).Reply
The virtual office is like a business center, which provides office services and facilities. Mostly start-up and small companies avail of these facilities to save on cost.--Scorpion prinz (Talk | contribs) 12:58, 16 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Regulatory requirements


What permits and licences are you referring to? My assumption is that when a chapter starts, they usually pay a once-and-for-all registration/permit fee -- and that's it. The impression I'm getting here is that these are annual fees in the Philippines, right? Abbasjnr 12:19, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Not exactly. Of all the licenses which we have, the only ones which are renewed annually are our city and village business licenses, plus our community tax certificate. Off the ones I can recall off the top of my head, we still need the following licenses in addition to the ones we already have:
  • Fundraising permit (to be renewed every year)
  • NGO registration (this grants us donee institution status, the Philippine equivalent of charitable status)
  • Permit to issue receipts
There are probably still a few other permits and licenses which we need, which I currently cannot recall, but should be lurking around somewhere on Meta. After all, operating a business in the Philippines requires a lot of patience and mastery of the art of swimming through red tape. :P --Sky Harbor (talk) 12:31, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

The following permits/licenses/taxes are renewed/paid annually:
  • Business (Mayor's) Permit but before you secure it, you need to have a Barangay (village) Clearance, a Locational Clearance which in turn would require you to have insurance coverage.
  • Community tax. We are also required to submit Income Tax Returns. Permit to issue receipts as above stated. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 05:55, 5 September 2011 (UTC)Reply



Are you aware that another WMPH member has also applied for a grant for a camera? If this grant will be approved, don't you think it'll be economical for you to share the camera? Abbasjnr 12:19, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Hi Abbas. From my personal standpoint, it is not practical because these cameras share two different initial purposes: one fulfills a personal project, while the other fulfills the need for us to have adequate documentation. In time, it probably becomes practical to share a camera, but I don't believe that's the case in the short run. I did respond though in my grant request that if need be, I can bequeath the camera to the chapter for use in our projects, which in turn allows us to better-fulfill our project objectives since now at least we have a camera free to lend for those who may as well need it for their projects. --Sky Harbor (talk) 12:26, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

As treasurer of the chapter and responsible for asset management, should the chapter request to procure a camera be granted, Josh can borrow it anytime should he have projects to carry-out, as long as it will not be in conflict with any ongoing or scheduled projects.--Roel (Talk | contribs) 05:59, 5 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

No, WMPH is not aware of Sky Harbor's (Josh's) grant application. His project was never been discussed on any board meeting or membership meeting. And yes, I agree that it is economical to lend Josh a WMPH camera. But his project should first be discussed, adopted, and planned by the organization. --Jojit (talk) 04:37, 6 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
I informed you and Eugene that I was planning to apply for a grant for the project, so I am under the presumption that there are people in the organization other than myself who are aware of it. Also, this is a personal Wikipedia-based project which falls outside the purview of my membership in the chapter, and I wouldn't think that the organization can vet and vouch for projects of individual Wikipedians just so they can receive Foundation funding.
On the other hand, while I appreciate being lent a camera, I don't think my grant request puts into jeopardy the chapter's request for a camera. As I said, they are for two separate purposes which can freely co-exist with one another. In the event that my project does drag out beyond the scheduled timeframe which the project is supposed to be completed, I don't want to hold a virtual monopoly on the organization's equipment. Also, if I may reiterate again, I am willing to bequeath the camera to the chapter for use in the chapter's activities, should that be placed as a precondition for approval of the grant. If my grant request is not approved, so be it, and I shall rely on borrowing the chapter's camera with no problem. --Sky Harbor (talk) 05:20, 6 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
Informing me and Eugene is not enough. You should have also informed the whole organization (or at least the board). Honestly, I thought that you are not serious about it until I saw the grant request. --Jojit (talk) 06:25, 6 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
Seriously, I don't see the benefit of an individual grant request if there is an existing chapter that is supposed to provide coverage for projects that maybe parallel with the intent. Just my two cents. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 11:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
I personally do not agree to the other proposal since it would open doors to many individual requests for personal items. --Exec8 18:24, 6 September 2011 (UTC) (Butch of WMPH)Reply

Professional services


You responded to Victoria's question on the same question saying that this was for audit fees. I'm a Student Accountant, and from what i'm aware is that in many jurisdictions, it is usually legally mandatory for an organisation to carry out an audit if it is a public company and/or has a high turnover. Most private institutions and NGO's are not required by law to carry out an audit, although they do it nonetheless so as to satisfy donors. I'm not sure about the laws in Philippines but I think you might want to confirm woth the authorities whether you are required to audit your financial statements. Perhaps a cheaper way that some chapters do is to create a (volunteer-led) audit committee within the chapter which will be in charge of checking out the checks and balances of the financial statements. Abbasjnr 12:19, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Under Philippine law, provided we have assets of below P500,000 or gross total receipts below P100,000, no external audit is required. We have an internal auditor, but the external audit is a check to make sure that we have everything in order. At the same time, since we currently have assets of nearly P200,000, and this number is expected to grow, the more inevitable external audits become. --Sky Harbor (talk) 12:40, 3 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Victoria's opinion


I think it's a good, a detailed proposal in line with current WMF strategy, which would be good to fund. The applicants clearly know what they are doing and have history of a successful grant. The event budget can be funded in full.

It is worrying that the Chapter has a tendency to accumulate "stuff" such as expensive, top of the range equipment and even office furniture. For example, the start up grant funded a LCD projector but now a tablet is requested because the projector is not easy to carry around.

I wonder what happens if the equipment is damaged/lost/stolen - the person(s) responsible will be clearly unable to replace. I wonder if it would be more practical do downgrade fundable equipment such as Digital SLR camera to a middle range but value for money models - I don't think that underwater filming is so important to the chapter activities that it justifies paying almost $2000 for a camera: significant part of the Image of the day files was made using equipment ten times cheaper. Likewise, it should be possible to find a good scanner that can scan A3 pages for $800 etc.

Specific points:

  • Please, note that the request for the website development now have been modified to the payment for the domains and require $200 instead of $480.
  • There is a proposal for a filing cabinet ($300): I don't know about prices in Manila, but in Britain it's possible to buy a servicable filing cabinet for approx. $100. And what happened to the paperless office?
  • Despite the detailed explanation I still don't see an urgent need in HDV Camcorder, because the digital cameras now can record short clips, which should be sufficient for uploading into Wikimedia projects and recording oral traditions can be done using a netbook/mobile phone/voice recorder at a fraction of the price.
  • Also I don’t agree that a tablet is required. Yes, it's not easy to carry the LCD projector around and the small screens of notebooks are not the best possible viewing experience. But any laptop would do the job better than an 11-inch tablet, as any of us attended a Wikimeetup would know. Additionally, I don’t think that having the latest vanity equipment would send a correct message to the potential donors - if WM PH can afford this why donate?

P.S. All questions in this post are retorical and do not require answers.Victoria 08:57, 10 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

First of all, thank you for your kind appreciation of our efforts. Let me give my answers.

1. Camcorder - the typical digital camera or netbook might do a trick on some videos like events. In the case of the camcorder, Our aim is to maximize the use of the equipment for the use of future generation. With millions of video clips uploaded in social networking sites and on youtube, I believe that many people would greatly appreciate our works if is recorded at its best quality. For example, if we like to present a video clip of a tribal dance in the Philippine highland region of Cordillera, the viewer (reader) would less appreciate the work if its viewed in a mobile phone camera versus a better resolution camera. Moreover, the video camera would be also be used in a makeshift studio the volunteers would setup for the Wikipedia instructional video. A green screen camera trick would appear bad if its done using a netbook or cellphone video. Our chapter will be using our volunteers rather than professional videographers for the making of these videos.
2. Tablet - the tablet would only be used in places where projectors are prohibited to use. When we use our office facility, and in some indoor conferences, we use our LCD projector. However there are some places projectors are not allowed and the audience is just about 2-3 persons, like in a coffee shop. However, I am amenable to one idea to replace it with a laptop with a larger screen. We also thought about that idea, until we found some of our volunteers are also into mobile (android and iphone) development and like to do some testing on wikiproject apps on tablets and smartphones.
3. Paperless office -- we are working on a hybrid structure. Many legal documents need to be kept printed as its required by regulatory agencies. We keep the legal documents in a place accessible by every member of the board of trustees and officers: the office. In the current system, we have to wait for the treasurer or secretary bring the documents from their homes to the meeting.
4. Web Development -- Some of our partners and potential donors told us to create websites that is not editable and secure to ensure transactions are done in a legitimate manner. Currently, our site is in meta. We also prefer signing up in a web company and registrar with an office in the Philippines to ensure we have a legal right should there be problems in their service level agreement. There are many cheaper web service companies but they are located overseas.
5. Scanner -- the scanner we are looking for are duplex and fast and can support A3 size. If we are targeting just flatbed scanners rather than ADF+Flatbed then we might encounter problems in the length of time on borrowed or leased documents/ books. The scanner will never be used outdoors or open establishments.
6. Camera -- At this moment this is the price of the equipment and accessories that best suit for art and nature wikiprojects. Should we were able to get a cheaper model, we might get two orders.

On opinion of being lost, damaged or broken -- the user signs a contract for the safe custody of the equipment while the project is ongoing. Warranty slips will be kept by the treasurer (asset management) and will be used should the need to repair happens. Wear and Tear is always expected but the media file made by it hopefully last forever in our commons repository. --Exec8 18:33, 11 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

WMF position


Thank you, everyone, for the responsible discussion. Below are some comments and requests that would allow us to move forward and approve this grant request, with modifications:

  1. We agree with Victoria -- WMPH seems to be eager to accumulate "stuff" for its own sake, and this is not a good use of our movement's donor funds. As has been pointed out, your own personal phones can already do a very decent job in most cases, and the few cases where they can't should be planned for separately. For example: show us a detailed and viable plan for a prolonged project of documenting folklore in the highlands, and we'll consider funding an HDV camcorder. Until then, it's just not needed.
  2. Same goes for the SLR camera and the high-end scanner: if you can point to a serious group of committed Wikimedians (including Commons and Wikisource volunteers) who would be operating that scanner often and much, it makes sense to purchase it now. If you are not able to so (yet), the scanner can wait.
  3. Likewise for the tablet -- whereas it is no doubt a useful gadget, it is not significantly more useful than smartphones, and those, I know, are already available to at least some of you. We are dismayed to read the LCD projector has already fallen into disuse; we do understand it is inappropriate in a 1-on-1 or small group meeting in a cafe, but then such a meeting can quite easily make do with a laptop or notebook computer too. So while a tablet would add value, it would just not add enough value to justify spending donor money on.
  4. The promotions caravan idea sounds interesting, but I would like to see more planning behind it. Who, exactly, would operate it, and on what schedule (i.e. about how often)? Where would the caravan be when it's not used? How do we ensure this investment yields return for more than two weeks (or months)? This sounds like something we do want to fund, but we would need to see some more concrete plans in place first.
  5. I, too, am a little confused about the "office supplies" item. I understand you need a file for official non-digitizable papers; why do you need the rest of the filing cabinet? :) Also, how many pens, pencils, papers etc. do you need, consider you don't have an office, and are already asking for a separate item for the "virtual office" service? I'd just like to better understand what this money would be spent on, and in what scenarios, for example.
  6. Please update the grant page itself, not just the talk page, when things change, e.g. the website costs to $200.
  7. WMPH will not be participating in this year's fundraiser, so the fundraising permit is not necessary for now, unless WMPH expects a lot of fundraising to be done beside the annual fundraiser, i.e. not through Wikipedia banners. My advice would be to focus on program work and to let the WMF provide the funding for now. When WMPH has lots and lots of volunteers and time, it would make sense to think about independent fundraising as well.
  8. How do you propose to run the micro-grants program? How would people know about it? How would they apply? How would decisions about it be made? What would reporting look like? How would you evaluate the impact of micro-grants you give?

In light of all these, I propose that you do the following:

  • remove the following items from the grant and budget: Tablet, Digital SLR camera, Scanner, HDV Camcorder, Media Player. (the router is fine).
  • explain further (or remove) the "office supplies" and "Wikipedia promotions caravan" items.
  • describe your plan for running a Microgrants program

Once these are done, we would be ready to approve the remaining grant budget and disburse the money.

Alternatively, if you feel we should discuss this further or would like to change our minds, we are happy to listen. Ijon 21:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Response to WMF Position


We share the same vision and understand the need to justify and prudently use every donor's penny, we all welcome this scrutiny. We are amenable to some of your proposals to strike-out some requests that you have perceived to be unnecessary, please find that they have been updated accordingly. We do recognize the lack of documentation to prove where the funds are intended to be used, I would like to provide some insights on what our intentions are.

If you won't mind, I would like to give a glimpse of what we have done so far so we can present our plans. The thrust in our first year was to basically advertise that Wikimedia is present in the country, and at the same time, educate the public that we are an entirely different entity from and totally not associated with WikiPilipinas, which has been very aggressive in its promotions, bankrolled and owned by a publishing giant in the country.

We have been made to realize of the need to expand our membership to build on our capability. With that, from just 20 members (including 9 original members) at the end of 2010, we have now grown to 46 as of August 27, 2011, with twelve more applications awaiting approval. This growth has given us the impetus to actually implement more substantial projects with far-reaching effects. And the budget we have requested is reflective of this growth. We want to have all the necessary means at our disposal to ensure that we can also support projects that our members can come up with. In the long-term, we hope to be self-sufficient. For the meantime we are requesting for the utmost consideration of our request.


  • Scanner and camera

It does appear that we maybe gathering too much equipment at this stage of our chapter's life. With the needed manpower ready to be tapped anytime, we have deemed that we are prepared take on projects like a GLAM Project in the Philippines. In doing so, the scanner, and camera with the necessary specifications and accessories that we have proposed will be very indispensable. To begin with, some of us have introduced the idea of GLAM to the curators/directors of the National Museum of the Philippines and the Ayala Museum and they have shown interest in the project. All we need is to formalize a request, but of course before we even do so, we must already have the capability to execute such undertaking. Such ideas were also presented to our members and they have been very excited about it. For a country with very few museum goers, this is a chance to get what has been kept there to promote our heritage, and drive up interest by simply emulating what has been done by our counterparts in the UK and France. We could only wish that our underfunded state-run National Archives and National Library would actually have the equipment to accomplish some tasks we desire to accomplish; and this is where the scanner will come to be used. With the growing number of members apart from us, we have what it takes to make the project successful. The list of targeted galleries, libraries, archives, museums will be expanded as the project progresses.

  • HDV camcorder

As for the other equipment, like the HDV camcorder, which is earmarked to cover oral traditions of fast vanishing indigenous communities, we may still need to work on that plan for its use to cover indigenous folklore in highland communities. Due to the absence of a plan, we failed to factor the expenses that will be incurred in implementing the project. Though if the foundation would consider, we can already utilize it for Research:Oral_Citations. Such equipment will be very useful as the chapter has always made it a point to keep a video documentation of our activities. This is done using borrowed equipment (and not smart phones Ü) and as much as possible we would like to be self-reliant. These equipment including the scanner and camera would be used for a very long time, as we do not expect to accomplish this task within a two-year time frame.

  • LCD Projector

Let me stress, that the LCD projector has not fallen into disuse. It's very much part of our lives Ü. It is used every quarterly meeting and during exhibits and presentations before a large crowd.

  • Withdrawn items

Though we regret, we can very well forego for now with the tablet, understanding your reservations about it, though it really adds value when we go to one-on-one engagements with potential corporate donors/partners, for them to see and try the interface right away, with a device very much likely to what they conveniently carry-around. The media player has also been withdrawn too as it is not seen to be intended for regular use.

Fundraising permit


It's true that WMPH does not intend to participate in this year's fundraiser. But not obtaining the permit will actually hamper us to source funding from local donors who require recipients to be certified by the Philippine Council for NGO Certification and the Department of Social Welfare and Development as another bureaucratic layer imposed by the national government four years ago. This move is designed for us to be less reliant on WMF's financial support, and we do not want to compromise this aspect of our chapter's growth. Though we do not expect so much yet, we know that this will somehow lessen the burden on WMF.

Virtual office/business center lease


For this year we are just renewing our contract with our virtual office service provider, which is actually an office or business center where we avail the use of its conference room for our meetings, have them receive and send out our correspondence, take phone/fax messages and relay it to us via text or email, without hiring a full-time staff. We are also able to use its Makati address for our annual business registration purposes.

Office supplies


As we previously explained, a significant amount earmarked for this year's office supplies allocation is intended for the procurement of a filing cabinet that we would install in the business center (virtual office) where we have a lease. Please be guided by this to serve as reference for the local pricing of the filing cabinet. After it, that leaves us with only ≈$160 for actual office supplies (i.e. pens, paper, printer cartridges, etc.).

  • Why do we actually need a filing cabinet?
    • The filing cabinet will serve as a repository of our equipment and documents. The business center which we use do no provide storage facilities, and those who do cost way much. As Treasurer and responsible for equipment safekeeping (at home), whenever we would have an activity, the project lead and I would have to arrange a mutually acceptable schedule to meet-up, and then transport these equipment and other supplies to our agreed upon place. The project lead then assumes responsibility over the equipment until the completion of the activity. Finding a mutually acceptable schedule is difficult in our setting, as some of us have irregular (evening) work hours and by the time they are out of the office, I would already be at work. Keeping the equipment in the business center, which we have convinced to allow us to install a filing cabinet there, would definitely solve the perennial problem of arranging a mutually acceptable schedule to meet-up, by just having the equipment and other paraphernalia in just one location. The rest of the space of the filing cabinet will be for the storage of promotional materials, souvenir giveaways, and reference books we are planning to purchase.
  • Why do we have paper documents to keep?
    • I work in a company which implements a paperless environment and I espouse WMPH do the same, regrettably, government agencies in the Philippines are far behind in adapting the practice. As such, they expect corporations like ours to maintain the hard copies of our documents and records. Just to magnify how companies operate here, they would have to "display in a conspicuous place" ten to twelve different forms, permits, receipts and certificates at their place of business. Though, they do allow some documents to be kept digital (i.e. books of account), it is only after complying with a dozen or so more requirements and a rigorous inspection. There's a stiff penalty if government agents do not find the books of account in the place of business, this practice applies to non-profit corporations as well.

Wikipedia Promotions/caravans


Colleges and universities provide a pool of potential contributors who often have more time than those who are already practicing their professions, as such the chapter intends to hold seminars and symposiums in campuses to promote Wikimedia (especially Wikipedia) projects. The chapter targets to hold symposiums and seminars in 2 to 3 schools every quarter. In several casual conversations with students, most just are end-users of the Wikimedia projects, as they lack the ability and knowledge to contribute in them. For those who attempted at contributing, they were discouraged by the actions taken by established contributors, that have led them to abandon their contribution. In these promotions and caravans, they will be briefed how the projects work, and introduce them to the culture in Wikipedia. Ideally (though with a very limited requested budget) the chapter would have to diversify and promote the projects in areas outside of Metro Manila, to help spur other Wikipedia projects in Philippine languages which have relatively becoming inactive and also support the creation of other projects in other major Philippine languages. In 2010 and early 2011, the promotions that the Chapter has conducted in a handful of schools have already created awareness about their potential in contributing to Wikipedia/Wikimedia. It hyped interest for them to at least volunteer in the chapters projects, this time they will be recruited to become full-time members.

I'm afraid I still don't understand what this money would actually pay for. Could you clarify the nature of the expense here? I do understand the goal is campus outreach. What are the means, and what would the money be spent on? Thanks. Ijon 17:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
Part of it will be used for transportation expenses, accommodation if these areas are way outside of Manila in the heartland of other Philippine languages which have their corresponding Wikipedia projects like in Cebu, Pangasinan, Ilocos region, Leyte-Samar (Waray-Waray), Bicol region, Zamboanga City (Chavacano), a significant amount is allotted for the production of promotional materials (i.e. Wikipedia CDs, brochures, Wikipedia give-away items, tarpaulin banners). --Roel (Talk | contribs) 11:32, 28 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia Promotions/caravans will be geared towards the setting-up of Wikimedia/Wikipedia communities to continue what the chapter has begun during the promotions and caravans. Microgrants will help fund activities that these communities may propose. All activities would be under the guidance of the chapter (through a project coordinator) to ensure that they are adhering to our objectives and goals in promoting and expanding support of Wikimedia projects in the academic environment. Similarly, microgrants could be tapped for projects that we can work with our targeted partner organizations (i.e. Philippine language associations) that will encourage their contribution in their respective Wikimedia language projects. Due to the lack of facilities and infrastructure in a lot of areas outside major urban areas, the chapter can sponsor a monthly (frequency may vary) Wikipedia writing marathon where internet cafe can be rented out for an entire day and contributors would be allowed free use of internet stations for the purpose of making their contributions. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 11:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

New Response

Thank you for the detailed response!
  1. I'm afraid I still don't consider HD camcorder and camera to be justifiable expenses in the current state of affairs. This can be discussed in a future grant, and perhaps then it would make more sense. For now, please remove them from the grant request (and update the totals accordingly).
  2. I do accept the explanation about the scanner, and look forward to seeing a more detailed plan for how it is put to use (i.e. where would the scanner live? Who would be using it regularly? etc.).
  3. I would love to see microgrants implemented and working in the Philippines, but would like a more modest beginning until its effectiveness is demonstrated. Please adjust the microgrants program item to $1000.
  4. The filing cabinet, office supplies, and fundraising permit items are approved.
Once you update the grant per the above, we can proceed with approval. Ijon 22:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
Very well, thanks for reconsidering our proposed grant. This will go a long way. We'll provide the detailed use of the equipment's use as our project progresses. Please find that the figures have been adjusted. Once more thank you very much in behalf of our chapter. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 04:22, 20 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
I note the SLR camera is still in the grant, and the the microgrants program is $1200 rather than $1000. Please amend so we can proceed. Ijon 16:51, 20 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
We're still vouching for the inclusion of camera, without it, the chapter will be impaired from effectively executing a GLAM project in the country. This would be the primary equipment that will be used to capture artifacts in our museums and artworks in our galleries. For all we know that GLAM involves a multifaceted approach. As a chapter we have seen what benefits GLAM could bring to us. And it is very ideal to serve as a showcase project of the chapter as it is not a project that is seen to be completed in a few days (like the projects that we are currently implementing now), but it could very well run continuously for years. We don't want to be confined to projects that commences and concludes in just a day or two. But a project like GLAM would definitely involve not only months but also years of continuous work. And this is strategy enough to attract donors as they would see the worthiness of their donations, once they see its benefits domestically. In the Philippines, donors are drawn towards organizations which are already able to produce results or are seeing the potentials of the projects that are underway. Just like potential members, they have the tendency to easily jump into the bandwagon, once they see the worthiness of being part of an organization, in projects that will involve them not only for a day or two, but continuously. In this way they know that their contribution would be very essential, once they have given their commitments which would have far reaching effects. If we can't implement this yet considering our technical (in)capabilities, we just don't know when we could begin such an undertaking. It is just unfortunate what we still have to ask this from you, we could only wish that there was no need for this. We fearlessly forecast that we shall see the initial fruits of this project at the end of 2012. We believe we deserve the fund for us to acquire the equipment. This will be a massive undertaking that we are seriously committing ourselves into. We earnestly hope that you would reconsider. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 01:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)Reply



I disagree with cutting down our hosting costs. $200 is enough only for domains, which essentially become useless if we rely on WMF hosting. At the same time, I'm not keen on having our website hosted on Wikimedia Foundation servers: for example, it opens doors for anyone with an account on any Wikimedia project to have editor-level access to our website, which is something that potential partners and donors do not want as it compromises the stability of the website. I hope that Roel, and subsequently the GAC, can consider increasing our hosting costs back to the level originally stipulated in the grant proposal so that we can still seek independent hosting. --Sky Harbor (talk) 15:49, 17 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Is there something I don't know? Has there been a precedent of someone sabotaging a chapter's website? WMUK looks fine to me. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 16:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
I think we know that in the Republic of the Philippines, we have a lot of anonymous editors (though I presume the wiki will be protected so that only editors can edit, they can still create accounts) who like sabotaging the actual projects, either by making nonsense pages, blanking pages or just plain disrupting the projects concerned. I'd prefer to be cautious: we can exercise more control over a website that is completely ours rather than a website hosted on the Foundation's servers. At the same time, the content we'd post would be completely ours should we get separate hosting: legally, while the licenses dictate that we give up all rights to what we write on a wiki, the content would still be owned by the Foundation since it's their servers we're using. --Sky Harbor (talk) 08:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

As the one spearheading the web development project, here are my opinions:

  • There are domains to keep my WMPH , wikimedia.org.ph and wikimedia.ph , both of which will expire on May 2012. PH domains are expensive (due to domain monopoly business of the Disini Family). Wikipedia.org.ph, wikipedia.ph are already cyber squat by a spamming company. As for reputation protection, and to keep our identify as a Philippine chapter of the Wikimedia Foundation, I recommend to extend the ownership of those domains for about 3-5 more years. It will be up to WMF on what to do to the squat domains since the use of wikipedia as domain is at their watch.
  • I recommend following the pattern for UK where the web hosting is under the foundation. As a person completed studies in Network Security, this is a more cost effective method. Going to an independent web hosting company would require looking for one with an office in the Philippines (for legal assurance), 24/7 technical support, technical features, best price, and a good reputation. Moreover, it will be time consuming building a site from scratch and do bug checking. It will be at a greater advantage if it is hosted within WMF on web indexing for search engines. Network security within the foundation is more reliable than to a 3rd party company. If you ask me I prefer technical considerations rather than a political approach. I trust the foundation. --Exec8 12:29, 18 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
I may trust the Foundation, but i don't trust editors who can easily create accounts and affect the stability of the website simply because we are not given the facility to control who can make accounts or not, especially when considering SUL-ed accounts. At least with a separate website, we're able to control who has access to the site, who can edit the site, and how the site looks. We're already investing a lot of effort into making our own website: I don't like throwing that all out the window simply because we favor "convenience". There's also the issue of rendering the website into other languages: we're given more flexibility into implementing websites in multiple languages with independent hosting than Foundation hosting, which forces us to only use one language. --Sky Harbor (talk) 13:05, 18 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
We understand your concern Josh, but it is unfounded.--Roel (Talk | contribs) 22:55, 18 September 2011 (UTC)Reply
Just to express my point, we consider decisions that would not cause much burden to us. I recommend you start building a personal beta wiki site, say about your research work while you are not with Wikimedia Philippines for about a year, that would place a high search index and secure, place it at a web host you personally leased and present the result to us.--Exec8 02:58, 19 September 2011 (UTC)Reply


Proposal: ADF, duplex scanner
Use: For our article quality improvement project.
  • Many books are already stored in our closets.
  • Many more have committed to lend theirs for this project.
  • Rather than typing the text from the source, we scan and use OCR.
  • It takes about 1.5 to 4 minutes to scan one page. If you have an average 500 page book, back to back and you have about hundred books in the closet then it that would eat a lot of time. That would have been used in editing and posting text in the Wiki projects.
  • There is no intention to copy & paste the whole content of the book to Wikipedia and other projects. It will be placed in a document processing software and edit it, and post it in compliance to the standards set for a good article/ wiki entry.

--Exec8 12:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Response to common questions

  • Will it be used as a mobile?
The scanner will be used indoors and will not be used in an outdoor activity in a public, open location.
  • Where will it be stored?
It will be stored at a project volunteers quarters in Quezon City during the progression of the Article Improvement Project and will be reused on the commencement of the GLAM project.
  • What purpose will be the scanner be used?
It will be used in the Article Improvement Project, increasing the text with reliable information from OCR scanned documents. It will also be used for images from GLAM public domain art works, digitized legal documents for reports to general membership.
  • Who will use the scanner?
Once the equipment is approved, many volunteers are lined up to use it, I am one of them. At this time, there are many books lined up for scanning and some of which are not yet completed since it requires manual scanning hours. The scanned pages are being edited at a document processing software.
  • Why not a budget flatbed scanner?
This borrowed device is being used for the project but it seems that doing this method is very time consuming and sometimes costly. With the huge amount of pages to scan, it will take us months (for full time) to finish and years (as part time) to complete it. Many of us cannot devote full time in this project and automating it would make things simpler, faster and better.
  • When will it be used?
It will be used once the equipment is purchased. Document processing will be done during volunteers free hours (mostly after work hours, weekends). The project will last until the last available book and other works is scanned. Existing system would require us to borrow a budget flatbed scanner from colleague when it is free to use. If no scanner is available and/or document/book is leased or borrowed and has a fixed time of use, bring it to a net cafe during working hours/days where a page costs about 20 pesos, extra charge for bigger than A4 (magazines, posters).

We ask to reconsider our request as the fruit of the project is the best heritage gift we can give to future generations. --Exec8 07:47, 22 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Training and Seminars


I notice you changed the meaning of the "training" item completely -- rather than giving training, this is now about receiving training. Could you give one or two specific examples of the kinds of training WMPH would seek? If you don't have anything concrete planned, I'd like to not include it in this grant (you can always ask for another grant if the need arises). Ijon 19:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

It's to the tune of seminars like this one slated for this coming week. This is designed for chapter development. For this particular seminar it will be a forum to be aware of some regulatory requirements that we should be complying rather than having regular consultants to do the work for us. This is much cheaper than getting consultants for that particular aspect. We also plan to have people who will be directly involved in projects to undergo event management training. --Roel (Talk | contribs) 06:27, 24 September 2011 (UTC)Reply

Request for an extension of the project completion date


We would like to request the implementation period of the project to December 31, 2012 in order to synchronize with WMPH's fiscal year. This grant was primarily used as the chapter's operational budget. A big portion of the fund was also used for the period beyond June 30, 2012 which was the provisional completion date. -- Namayan (talk) 09:53, 16 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Approved. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 19:12, 20 February 2013 (UTC)Reply