Feb 24 16:00:14 <Philippe> So, Sue, do you want to kick us off with some of your thinking?
Feb 24 16:00:18 <Philippe> or is there another way we should talk? :)
Feb 24 16:00:19 <ChristineM> derp, if you can believe it, they're saying snow in the San Francisco/San Jose area too.
Feb 24 16:00:20 <sgardner> LOL, sure.
Feb 24 16:00:21 <ChristineM> this is wild.
Feb 24 16:00:22 <Ironholds> jsalsman: the problem with that is that if we treat them with "kid gloves" before releasing them into the wild, as it were, we're inviting them to be kicked in the teeth.
Feb 24 16:00:23 * LauraHale is on the mailing list. :)
Feb 24 16:00:36 <sgardner> Why don't you guys continue talking amongst yourselves for a minute, while I compose myself :-)
Feb 24 16:00:45 <derp> good idea
Feb 24 16:00:48 <derp> <3 LauraHale
Feb 24 16:00:49 <Ironholds> if there's a problem with the behaviour of the main community that requires new editors to be handled gently, that behaviour needs to change
Feb 24 16:00:49 <jsalsman> as opposed to simply inviting them to be kicked in the teeth to begin with?
Feb 24 16:00:52 <Philippe> Ironholds, I think there's something to be said for an intermediary step though, right?
Feb 24 16:01:02 <GorillaWarfare> How is this incubator different from userspace drafts?
Feb 24 16:01:10 <GerardM-> <grin> we were talking about using gender in the localisation of the log files
Feb 24 16:01:14 <jsalsman> it's more like Esperanza
Feb 24 16:01:16 <Ironholds> GorillaWarfare: I believe it's being proposed for users rather than articles
Feb 24 16:01:21 <Ironholds> jsalsman: that ended badly, but okay
Feb 24 16:01:34 <jsalsman> what went wrong with Esperanza?
Feb 24 16:01:40 <GerardM-> and the notion that the gender in the preferences is there to enable gender for a person
Feb 24 16:01:45 <Ironholds> Philippe: true, but it'd have to be around say, teaching them the practicalities of editing and community conventions. Merely treating them nicely is inviting later problems.
Feb 24 16:01:55 <Philippe> Sure. :)
Feb 24 16:01:56 <Ironholds> jsalsman: paperwork, elitism and an MfD from hell
Feb 24 16:01:58 <Philippe> I agree, Ironholds
Feb 24 16:02:05 <Philippe> oy vey, that WAS an ugly MfD
Feb 24 16:02:05 <LauraHale> Gender related issues can just be a matter of getting certain groups engaged.
Feb 24 16:02:12 <GerardM-> what is a MfD
Feb 24 16:02:23 <GorillaWarfare> Miscellany for Deletion
Feb 24 16:02:24 <Ironholds> GerardM-: like Articles for Deletion, but for the namespace and userspace
Feb 24 16:02:30 <Philippe> MfD = Miscellany for Deletion.... like... yeah, what they said
Feb 24 16:02:31 * LauraHale is trying to engage the netball community and run some wiki academies, with the idea of getting netballers to improve articles to help promote their sport, etc.
Feb 24 16:02:31 <Ironholds> five times as emotional and half as rational
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Feb 24 16:02:38 <jsalsman> Esperanza was ended with an MfD?
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Feb 24 16:02:45 <Ironholds> yup. in..05? 06?
Feb 24 16:02:45 <shimgray> on en, MfD is usually a proxy way of deleting processes/projects
Feb 24 16:02:46 <mindspillage> Esperanza was run by people who meant well but didn't really have the skills to know how to make it effective rather than just well-intentioned.
Feb 24 16:03:06 <GerardM-> the difference of the Russian proposal is that it is for newbies to learn the ropes
Feb 24 16:03:10 <shimgray> because there's no other way of doing so, it goes through the formality of a "deletion" discussion
Feb 24 16:03:10 <Ironholds> LauraHale: I like that idea
Feb 24 16:03:15 <Fluffernutter> there are small steps that could be taken quite easily. For example, "requiring", in some form, anyone who reverts a new account's edit to drop an explanation (preferably not a template) on their talk page. Things that would force old skool editors to engage instead of blowing off
Feb 24 16:03:18 <GerardM-> it is NOT a place for garbage
Feb 24 16:03:18 * ChanServ gives voice to sgardner
Feb 24 16:03:41 <LauraHale> We're getting support from Wikimedia Australia with that. :)
Feb 24 16:03:50 <Ironholds> ta, LauraHale. I was thinking of trying to set up something similar with a group I'm involved with, but we'll see
Feb 24 16:03:52 <sgardner> So basically, as many of you know, the NY Times published a story about our gender gap on January 31, that resulted in a lot of other media, and a lot of internal attention to the gender gap issue. As well as broader conversations about being more open & welcoming in general.
Feb 24 16:04:00 <sgardner> (I am writing a second paragraph now :-)
Feb 24 16:04:04 <LauraHale> It doesn't need to be Wikipedia at the onset, just realizing that this stuff can help people actualize their goals.
Feb 24 16:04:23 <mindspillage> You can't actually *delete* a movement, just a page. :-)
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Feb 24 16:04:30 <GorillaWarfare> Fluffernutter: If I had to NOT template newbies, vandalism reversion would be very slow
Feb 24 16:04:42 <sgardner> There has been talk on foundation-l about modifying bots and templates to have friendlier messages, Zack had a great metaphor about how we don't want Recent Changes and New Article patrollers to accidentally shoot nuns in the first-person shooter game that patrolling seems to have become (nuns=good faith new editors). On the Gender Gap mailing list people are strategizing about how to reach out to new women and coach them through their first
Feb 24 16:04:42 <sgardner> edits. And people are talking about the Russian Wikipedia (perhaps not coincidentally the fastest-growing language version) has an Incubator where new people can develop new articles in a safe space.
Feb 24 16:04:47 <GerardM-> Sue congratulation on your advisory board position on the Ada initiative
Feb 24 16:04:50 <sgardner> (One more tiny graph, then I'll stop :-)
Feb 24 16:04:56 <Fluffernutter> GorillaWarfare, yes, it would be a trade-off, but the reversion would still get done, and with less biting
Feb 24 16:05:04 <apergos> oohh an article incubator area
Feb 24 16:05:20 <apergos> now that's a very ineteresting idea... keeps crap from getting labelled and stomped on right away
Feb 24 16:05:21 <ChristineM> i *really* like the article incubator idea
Feb 24 16:05:26 <GorillaWarfare> Fluffernutter: I don't personally see the templates as bitey, but I guess that's just opinion
Feb 24 16:05:29 <Ironholds> we've actually got one on en-wiki
Feb 24 16:05:34 <Ironholds> we'd just need to expand it a bit more
Feb 24 16:05:36 <mindspillage> Yeah, I like that idea.
Feb 24 16:05:43 <Philippe> GorillaWarfare: if your first experience is a nasty-gram, it's not always a great one :)
Feb 24 16:05:55 <Fluffernutter> GorillaWarfare, i could negotiate on the template. They're not really my focus so much as the reversion-with-no-comment-other-than-maybe-in-edit-summary is
Feb 24 16:05:56 <sgardner> I am really happy that there seems to be some energy and momentum around this issue. Not just the gender issue, but openness in general. So I think it would be great if we talked here about how we could help; what we could do to increase openness. What can the Foundation do, what can experienced editors do, bots writers, etc.
Feb 24 16:05:57 <Ironholds> to include welcoming and tutoring rather than a "computer says no" instant yes/no/piss off decision like the current system is
Feb 24 16:05:58 <apergos> sure, an experienced user is not likely to see them as bitey but a new user when that's the first thing that happens
Feb 24 16:06:05 <mindspillage> New page patrol should have created one actually. :-)
Feb 24 16:06:07 <GorillaWarfare> Fluffernutter: Understood
Feb 24 16:06:08 <sgardner> (Now I will catch up reading what you said while I wrote that :-)
Feb 24 16:06:10 <apergos> "OMG they put this huge warning label on my stuff now what??"
Feb 24 16:06:31 <mindspillage> It should be on the new page patroller checklist: "is this redeemable? tag with Template:Incubator"
Feb 24 16:06:44 <Keegan> We have incubators. It's called [[User:FOO/TYPECRAPHEREANDEITHERWORKONITORITWILLBEDELETED
Feb 24 16:06:45 <Ironholds> mindspillage: I know the guy who built friendly/twinkle. He owes me a beer.
Feb 24 16:06:49 <Keegan> ]]
Feb 24 16:06:52 <Ironholds> want me to poke him?
Feb 24 16:06:56 <Fluffernutter> Keegan, but that;s no good when new users don't know that
Feb 24 16:07:03 <GerardM-> Sue I think MediaWiki needs to support gender in its user interface as is fitting for a language / a community
Feb 24 16:07:07 <sgardner> Thanks GerardM, I am happy to be on the advisory board for them :-)
Feb 24 16:07:19 <Philippe> Keegan, that's not always the most user friendly way to get things to happen :)
Feb 24 16:07:28 <mindspillage> Keegan: then it gets lost, because they don't remember the capitalization and spacing they used for their titles, or how to search for it again!
Feb 24 16:07:28 <jayvdb> Would it be useful to lock non-autoconfirmed users into creating new pages in their userspace ?
Feb 24 16:07:35 <apergos> remember how once upon a time a new user could add some stuff to an article without attribution and someone else would come along a while later and just improve it instead of...
Feb 24 16:07:36 <GerardM-> as long as MediaWiki does not offer that, I think the talk about gender is just that
Feb 24 16:07:38 <apergos> tagging it? :-P
Feb 24 16:07:42 <sgardner> And yes, supporting gender in the user interface for languages with grammatical gender would I think be helpful. Not everyone cares, but some do.
Feb 24 16:07:46 * Keegan was being sarcastic for those very reasons
Feb 24 16:07:50 <Philippe> I remember...I'm gonna show my age... back when articles were started in mainspace and left in mainspace even if less than perfect. Can we hypothesize for a minute about whether that's a terrible idea?
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Feb 24 16:08:09 <Fluffernutter> Philippe, in those days were weren't google-indexed within like five seconds
Feb 24 16:08:14 <Fluffernutter> we have far more to lose leaving them up now
Feb 24 16:08:15 <sgardner> Brion :-)
Feb 24 16:08:18 * mindspillage hands Philippe the old farts' club commemorative mug.
Feb 24 16:08:19 <sgardner> Okay,.
Feb 24 16:08:24 <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: yes, but this comes down to "what do we want to be"
Feb 24 16:08:26 <apergos> I want one! me too
Feb 24 16:08:38 <sgardner> I am going to ask Philippe to facilitate / structure us a little :-)
Feb 24 16:08:42 <Ironholds> do we want to be the free, reliable encyclopedia ANYONE can edit, or the free RELIABLE encyclopedia anyone can edit?
Feb 24 16:08:43 <sgardner> Just so it's not chaos :-)
Feb 24 16:08:45 * Ironholds quiets
Feb 24 16:08:46 * mindspillage places the old farts' club commemorative mug on the tables so all who feel they qualify can have one.
Feb 24 16:08:51 <Philippe> So, I'm intrigued by a few things that I've heard... GorillaWarfare... your comment on the templates... are you somone who uses them regularly? in new article patrol or something?
Feb 24 16:08:53 <Keegan> Philippe: That ties into my followup to your post on friendliness on Foundation-l
Feb 24 16:09:01 <GorillaWarfare> Philippe: Huggle, mostly, but yes.
Feb 24 16:09:06 <sgardner> Yay!
Feb 24 16:09:16 * apergos groans and goes to read foundation-l archives. dang it.
Feb 24 16:09:18 <Keegan> Slapping down new pages like a hockey puck, tossing templates like baseballs
Feb 24 16:09:18 <sgardner> I have really wanted to talk to a vandal fighter / RC patroller.
Feb 24 16:09:26 <Philippe> Interesting... so there's some discussion that Huggle might be encouraging a "video game" mentality... is that something that you think is true?
Feb 24 16:09:31 <Keegan> It makes it a game that people "play" rather than collaborate
Feb 24 16:09:34 * GorillaWarfare raises hand for vandal fighter
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Feb 24 16:09:35 <Fluffernutter> Philippe: YES
Feb 24 16:09:38 <Ironholds> it does
Feb 24 16:09:38 <Keegan> It creates teams
Feb 24 16:09:44 <jsalsman> the psychological dynamic is, sadly, usually that an editor at ~100-2500 edits will run up against a deletion for nonnotability or similar, get disgruntled, and take it out on newpage patrol so that other people has to go through what they went through. Most more experienced editors seem to be more willing to improve or let stand marginal quality new articles
Feb 24 16:09:48 <Ironholds> and I'm speaking as someone who cleared the entire 30-day new pages log twice.
Feb 24 16:09:56 <Philippe> (me loves that GorillaWarfare is here, because I LOVE that we have this sort of input from people who do recent changes patrol)
Feb 24 16:09:57 <jsalsman> other people have* to go
Feb 24 16:10:00 <Ironholds> it's satirically nicknamed the "firing range" for a reason ;p
Feb 24 16:10:07 <mindspillage> sgardner: there was a "community summit" back in the dark ages in which the staff (mostly Danny, I think) met with a few community members... a vandal patroller was among them.
Feb 24 16:10:07 <sgardner> They call it that. Oh my!
Feb 24 16:10:17 * Fluffernutter uses STiki sometimes, which i chose over huggle because it doesn't freaking rush me into making decisions like huggle does
Feb 24 16:10:28 <Ironholds> sgardner: mostly to critique the attitude. It's not a serious name used by the editors who specialise there
Feb 24 16:10:30 <GorillaWarfare> I definitely see how it can seem like a video game type thing. However, I think its usefulness outweighs that detriment
Feb 24 16:10:33 <Philippe> Fluffernutter: can you tell me what's different b/w the two?
Feb 24 16:10:36 <Philippe> I haven't used STiki
Feb 24 16:10:36 <Ironholds> sort of like calling heavily religious people bible-thumpers
Feb 24 16:10:44 <sgardner> Yeah. We need to hear their voices. I vandal patrolled for about five minutes on the weekend, and I found it incredibly anxiety-provoking.
Feb 24 16:11:09 <Philippe> Yeah, I mentioned the other day... I can't imagine doing new article patrol without Twinkle, back when I was admining
Feb 24 16:11:14 <Philippe> Before electricity was invented :)
Feb 24 16:11:18 <sgardner> I think you're right GorillaWarfare: obviously the tools developed for a reason.
Feb 24 16:11:21 <shimgray> (I can see the psychology of it easily. "Wikipedia, the MMORPG". get edits for points! level up as an admin! kill trolls! etc.)
Feb 24 16:11:28 <Fluffernutter> Philippe: Stiki uses some sort of magic AI-ness to pick out likely-vandalistic edits, and presents them to one person running the program to decide on. You can then read, diff, check, and pick what you want to do with it. Whereas when I tried huggle, it was a mad rush to act before someone stole the edit out from under me and i lost the last few minutes of work
Feb 24 16:11:34 <GorillaWarfare> shimgray: Well put
Feb 24 16:11:38 <mindspillage> Even in 2005 I gave up on new article patrol pretty quickly; I wasn't fast enough for it. :-P
Feb 24 16:11:39 <Philippe> The progression of tools from the earlieest to their most current iterations is kind of interesting.
Feb 24 16:11:50 <shimgray> sgardner: the tools developed because the number of person-hours was approximately constant but the number of incoming edits/articles kept increasing
Feb 24 16:11:51 <sgardner> But I am wondering if there are ways "we" (foundation/developers/anyone) can help the vandal-fighters be less scary/demotivating to new people.
Feb 24 16:11:52 <Philippe> Ah, interesting, Fluffernutter
Feb 24 16:11:58 <Keegan> sgardner: While I don't do it certainly to the extent that I used to a few years ago, vandal patrolling is fun, at first. Then it gets annoying. Then you start wanting to get those that are annoying you. Then it turns into a game.
Feb 24 16:12:11 <sgardner> shimgray: yes, exactly. That's what I assumed: it makes perfect sense.
Feb 24 16:12:18 <jsalsman> oh, geez, "Wikipedia as an MMORG" gets ~5 pages in the Institute for the Future's Director's new book, "Reality is Broken"
Feb 24 16:12:18 <shimgray> which has one obvious corrolary: as time goes by, any given "responsive" patrolling edit has less time behind it.
Feb 24 16:12:19 <sgardner> Endless September.
Feb 24 16:12:22 <Fluffernutter> mindspillage: I don't RC patrol in general because, again, i feel rushed, and rushing turns into bad decisions
Feb 24 16:12:27 <GerardM-> <grin> it is particularly an en,wp issue on other projects they are happy with any edit
Feb 24 16:12:29 <sgardner> Or is it called Eternal September; I always get it wrong.
Feb 24 16:12:40 <Ironholds> if we're talking usenet
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Feb 24 16:12:48 <Ironholds> oh god, why do I know that. I was only born in 1990.
Feb 24 16:12:59 <shimgray> a few years ago, you might have a minute of thought in an article deletion. now, there are three times as many deletions for the same number of patrollers; twenty seconds thought.
Feb 24 16:13:02 <apergos> no, on other projects they are not necessarily happy with any edit
Feb 24 16:13:04 <Theo10011> ClueBot puts most recent change patroller to shame.
Feb 24 16:13:04 <Philippe> So.. the tools... I think we're basically in agreement that SOMETHING is needed to make patrolling easier...
Feb 24 16:13:05 <sgardner> yeah, eternal, thanks. I think we are still living in and with the legacy of that. I think Eternal September started for Wikipedia in about 2005.
Feb 24 16:13:07 * Ziko_ (8fb002ef@gateway/web/freenode/ip) has joined #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 16:13:08 <apergos> (having el wp in mind)
Feb 24 16:13:16 <Philippe> the question is almost whether what we have does more harm than good... or does harm at all?
Feb 24 16:13:29 <shimgray> and the less time involved, the more likely it is to come off badly to the person being reverted/deleted
Feb 24 16:13:34 <sgardner> OMG Ironholds. Get off my lawn :-)
Feb 24 16:13:38 <Fluffernutter> yes, what shimgray said
Feb 24 16:13:42 <LauraHale> Philippe: Are most people coming into this as potential editors going to see and know this?
Feb 24 16:13:43 <ChristineM> and off mine too
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Feb 24 16:13:45 <Philippe> shimgray: do we have stats for that somewhere?
Feb 24 16:13:45 <russet> What are we talking about?
Feb 24 16:13:49 <Ironholds> Philippe: I really liked jayvdb's suggestion, which seems to have been got lost in the deluge - make non-autoconfirmed users only capable of creating articles in userspace
Feb 24 16:13:52 <apergos> hey, you're not old enough to say that yet ( sgardner ) :-P
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Feb 24 16:13:57 <Ironholds> sort of like making the incubator/article wizard mandatory
Feb 24 16:14:00 <Keegan> "Whereas when I tried huggle, it was a mad rush to act before someone stole the edit out from under me" <~ that sense of wanting or needing credit is the issue.
Feb 24 16:14:03 <Ironholds> that way it takes all the frantic racing out of the "game"
Feb 24 16:14:05 <jsalsman> russet: newpage/vandal patrol vs. newcomers
Feb 24 16:14:05 <shimgray> Philippe: no, I'm handwaving, but the numbers instinctively seem right. I'll see what I can produce.
Feb 24 16:14:11 <sgardner> How young Ironholds is, LOL. No, really, we are talking about how we could help vandal-fighters not frighten newbies.
Feb 24 16:14:14 <shimgray> erik has raw edit numbers over time, right? hmm.
Feb 24 16:14:16 <GorillaWarfare> russet: Making WP more friendly for new contributors, including whether or not vandal-fighting can be detrimental
Feb 24 16:14:17 <Philippe> I'd be really interested in seeing some of those.
Feb 24 16:14:26 <mindspillage> Keegan: that's the problem with encouraging fact-checking too... no reward for finding no errors. :-P
Feb 24 16:14:33 <russet> I see.
Feb 24 16:14:36 <GerardM-> move newbies to a Russian style incubator
Feb 24 16:14:37 <Philippe> Keegan: I think it was less about crdit and more about "darn, i have to load ANOTHER screen...."
Feb 24 16:14:42 <Philippe> and not getting to DO something
Feb 24 16:14:45 <Fluffernutter> Keegan: no, not credit (at least in my case). Just, if I spend five minutes checking an edit, and then click save and find someone else did it first, i've just wasted those five minutes, and the next five are also likely to get waste din the same way
Feb 24 16:14:52 <Philippe> What Fluffernutter said :)
Feb 24 16:14:55 <apergos> if we lose (more than a few) new editors we could convert to good editors, because of these tools, then that's a bad thing imho
Feb 24 16:15:23 <sgardner> apergos, you say that only because I am three minutes younger than you :-)
Feb 24 16:15:27 <GorillaWarfare> apergos: Conversely, if Wikipedia is cluttered with vandalism, that brings reliability down immensely
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Feb 24 16:15:29 <sgardner> I will stop derailing now, sorry.
Feb 24 16:15:31 <shimgray> apergos: bingo. if this is true, it leads immediately to a vicious cycle - people having less time to deal with new users, more bad interactions, less chance those users stay, etc etc
Feb 24 16:15:34 <Philippe> russet: But if we get them created... how do we (and should we) shield them in any way?
Feb 24 16:15:37 <Keegan> Oh yes, I got that from your comment, Fluffernutter. The problem that I have is that there are many that get genuinely upset if they get "beaten" to a revert
Feb 24 16:15:47 <Ironholds> GorillaWarfare: hence my earlier statement. It depends if our priority is the "anyone can edit" element or the "reliable" element
Feb 24 16:15:54 <GorillaWarfare> ^Agreed
Feb 24 16:15:55 <russet> Phillipe, teach them, but teach them right.
Feb 24 16:15:55 <Fluffernutter> Keegan: yeah, agreed. Which is the video game mindset, and which drive me batshit
Feb 24 16:16:05 <Philippe> russet: who does the teaching? :)
Feb 24 16:16:09 <russet> For new pages, we should have a better wizard.
Feb 24 16:16:20 <LauraHale> Reliable can be done with anyone who edits if the priority is on giving people a reason to contribute.
Feb 24 16:16:26 <Philippe> russet: funny you mention that... i was in a meeting about that today :)
Feb 24 16:16:29 <GorillaWarfare> I agree with russet on that -- I was dealing with a user in en-help yesterday who was utterly baffled by the wizard
Feb 24 16:16:30 <Fluffernutter> Ironholds has a point in that this whole issue is borne of us not knowing which word we want to stress
Feb 24 16:16:41 <russet> Our current approach to help is downright lousy, Phillipe
Feb 24 16:16:56 <Philippe> Actually, it's kind of interestintg.... we've talked about creating the article, and seeing it zapped... but what about RESCUING them?
Feb 24 16:17:09 <Philippe> Is there a role for finding a way to move them, save them, encourage the editors who created them?
Feb 24 16:17:20 <Ironholds> Philippe: we could always propose changing CSD policy
Feb 24 16:17:24 <Fluffernutter> oh god
Feb 24 16:17:29 <mindspillage> Keegan: yeah--I wish we had some good obvious indicator of time and effort spent other than edit count.
Feb 24 16:17:31 <Ironholds> for example, where something is advertising, the concern is that it's google-linked, right?
Feb 24 16:17:31 <sgardner> So I am going to spend a second crafting a sentence or two on what I think we might be able to do, and then I will dump it here :-)
Feb 24 16:17:35 <Fluffernutter> yes, let's make CSD more confusing, by all means
Feb 24 16:17:36 * Keegan laughs @ Ironholds
Feb 24 16:17:38 <Ironholds> but userspace isn't directly google-linked
Feb 24 16:17:45 <mindspillage> Activities that don'tresult in edits are disfavored, and you have nothing to show for your work.
Feb 24 16:17:45 <apergos> I am hearing that there are so many people doing new article patroll that you have to rush to get your edit or change in... in those circumstances I can't imagine that vandlaism piling up is going to be a real problem
Feb 24 16:17:51 <shimgray> CSD policy is basically aspirational at the best of times. it's always been "I don't like it", as long as I can remember.
Feb 24 16:17:52 <Ironholds> so we could transfer spam articles to userspace and invite the creator to rewrite
Feb 24 16:18:09 <Ironholds> shimgray: as an administrator, I find your statement.. depressingly accurate. Time to drink myself into an early grave.
Feb 24 16:18:10 <GorillaWarfare> apergos: I can see it as being a problem if, say, Huggle was eliminated
Feb 24 16:18:11 <russet> Ironholds, CSD is effective at removing 99% of ****
Feb 24 16:18:11 <Philippe> Ironholds: that's an interesting idea....
Feb 24 16:18:15 <mindspillage> (and when all you get is personal satisfaction andcommunityreputation,notgettingone of those atall, well...)
Feb 24 16:18:28 * mindspillage cannot incentivize her spacebar to behave better either.
Feb 24 16:18:29 * Fluffernutter hands mindspillage a space bar
Feb 24 16:18:31 <LauraHale> Is this process the correct approach? This all seems like a lot of focus on what is happening on Wikipedia and issues with editing.
Feb 24 16:18:34 <Philippe> russet: the problem, again, is does it remove things that could be saved?
Feb 24 16:18:34 <GerardM-> what is huggle
Feb 24 16:18:40 <Theo10011> heh
Feb 24 16:18:40 <Ironholds> Philippe: I'm, not to toot my own horn, the second-biggest NPP worker on en-wiki. Want me to write up a few ideas and send em in so they don't get lost in the deluge?
Feb 24 16:18:40 <jayvdb> russet, it is only effective because they are extremely busy whacking the articles
Feb 24 16:18:42 <shimgray> I was writing terse emails to the mailing list complaining about shocking misuse of CSD in 2007, at least. I'm sure I might have done so in 2005 had I thought to...
Feb 24 16:18:48 <Philippe> GerardM-: Huggle is an anti-vandalism tool
Feb 24 16:18:50 <russet> Phillipe, what we need is stuff like http://enwp.org/?diff=415737868 except some editors are really stubborn about keeping things creepy
Feb 24 16:18:52 <GorillaWarfare> GerardM-: It's a vandalism reversion tool that allows you to make many reverts in a very quick period of time
Feb 24 16:18:54 <Philippe> Ironholds: I'd love that, thank you
Feb 24 16:18:58 <LauraHale> That doesn't seem particularly relevant to the issue of getting women involved with Wikipedia because who cares about that in terms of getting them involved?
Feb 24 16:18:59 <Ironholds> *thumbs up*
Feb 24 16:19:12 <jsalsman> +1 for a Russian style incubator pilot program
Feb 24 16:19:12 <jayvdb> many many articles are deleted when they should be kept - new users are burnt because of the pressure to keep rubbish out of the mainspace
Feb 24 16:19:19 <LauraHale> Why should women edit Wikipedia? What is in it for them? Why should they spend the time period?
Feb 24 16:19:20 <Philippe> russet, want to tell me more about that?
Feb 24 16:19:35 <jsalsman> editing Wikipedia makes people smarter
Feb 24 16:19:36 <Fluffernutter> LauraHale: why should what's in it for women be any different than what's in it for men?
Feb 24 16:19:36 <bawolff> Why should men edit Wikipedia?
Feb 24 16:19:39 <Keegan> Why should men edit Wikipedia?
Feb 24 16:19:41 <GorillaWarfare> I guess I'm not sure where the issue is with the lack of women editors
Feb 24 16:19:41 <mindspillage> LauraHale: why should anyone?
Feb 24 16:19:44 <Fluffernutter> lol
Feb 24 16:19:46 <Keegan> JINX
Feb 24 16:19:48 <Philippe> incoming
Feb 24 16:19:48 <sgardner> So currently patrollers do a super-fast check, and then revert vandalism and template or nominate-for-deletion stuff that looks weak. We know that being deleted/templated scary and demotivating.
Feb 24 16:19:50 <bawolff> lol
Feb 24 16:19:51 <GorillaWarfare> Nicely done, you two
Feb 24 16:19:53 * shimgray notes that these are mostly seperate issues, but related
Feb 24 16:19:56 <sgardner> Let's assume patrollers have to behave that way, because of the volume of material they process. Let's assume they can't move any slower, or be more deliberate.
Feb 24 16:20:03 <Risker> As to new page patrol, I think the most helpful thing we could do is flip it backwards so that when people log in to the list, they get the oldest articles available rather than the newest
Feb 24 16:20:04 <sgardner> What interventions can we make to rescue the work of good faith newbies, and encourage them to keep trying?
Feb 24 16:20:11 <shimgray> there's not much benefit to recruiting more users if we're going to immediately piss them off!
Feb 24 16:20:12 <LauraHale> mindspillage: If you're a netball organization, why aren't you editing Wikipedia? There are plenty of reasons to do that...
Feb 24 16:20:12 <russet> they can't
Feb 24 16:20:13 * geniice (~chatzilla@wikipedia/geniice) has joined #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 16:20:17 * mindspillage thinks that the women currently on Wikipedia are almost exactly the wrong people to ask!
Feb 24 16:20:22 <Philippe> So, sgardner, one that was suggested was moving them to userspace rather than deleting them.
Feb 24 16:20:22 <russet> sgardner, start at the beginning
Feb 24 16:20:22 <jayvdb> sgardner, they use templates instead of talking to newbies
Feb 24 16:20:29 <Fluffernutter> the idea of forced-userspace creations is growing on me the more i think about it
Feb 24 16:20:30 <GerardM-> when this stuff is by a user that is less then a week / two weeks get it to the Incubator namespace and get them hel[
Feb 24 16:20:32 <bawolff> (to clarify, my comment is meant as, if we don't understand why men edit wikipedia, we won't understand why other groups don't)
Feb 24 16:20:34 <russet> Phillipe, please not the userspace!
Feb 24 16:20:41 <LauraHale> But almost the whole discussion here? I can't see why I'd edit based on what I'm seeing here. No effort to get me invested in helping Wikipedia or to help myself.
Feb 24 16:20:47 <GorillaWarfare> sgardner: The problem I run into is that I see so many articles that, given an hour or two, I could improve. Which do I choose? How do I possibly get to them all?
Feb 24 16:20:49 <Philippe> russet: I'm just saying that was suggested :)
Feb 24 16:20:51 <russet> How about on the Toolserver, though a /~afc/
Feb 24 16:20:52 <Risker> is there not an incubator space?
Feb 24 16:20:53 <russet> ?
Feb 24 16:20:54 <jsalsman> sgardner: nicer template messages, move to userspace instead of deleting with copius instructions about correcting the fault found; intro to Articles for Creation(?)
Feb 24 16:21:03 * Risker thought we'd already set up incubators ages ago
Feb 24 16:21:12 <Orderinchaos> speaking personally I know that sometimes having a regular editor who is a subject specialist can be a plus. If the editor is "making sense" then the regular can stick up for them and has more "kudos" so gets paid attention to - also gives the newbie someone to work with. But I'd imagine that's a rare thing.
Feb 24 16:21:15 <russet> On wiki is not really the right place...it's too public, imho,
Feb 24 16:21:19 <GerardM-> people who huggle do not huddle together with the newbies
Feb 24 16:21:19 <Ironholds> Risker: we have. They're obscure, awkwardly WYSIWYGd and rarely used
Feb 24 16:21:21 <mindspillage> I don't think anyone would edit based on what they're seeing here; we're all bitching.
Feb 24 16:21:25 <Orderinchaos> (like if it comes up on a watchlist or something.)
Feb 24 16:21:26 <Fluffernutter> LauraHale: if someone sees no value in contributing to WP, they're not our target audience with these measures. It's the people who do see value but get discouraged that we're going for
Feb 24 16:21:36 <Ziko_> in de.wp practically every newbie (new account) gets a welcome on the user talk page with a hint about the mentorenprogramm. but it seems that only a few people click on that . we have a lot of mentoren, thats not the problem
Feb 24 16:21:40 <GorillaWarfare> GerardM-: I do..
Feb 24 16:21:45 <Ironholds> agreed. Attracting people with different traits or interests or rationales is a seperate goal.
Feb 24 16:21:51 <Ironholds> although a no less important one
Feb 24 16:21:53 <GorillaWarfare> GerardM-: My two main things are Huggle and en-help, haha.
Feb 24 16:22:04 <jsalsman> back in '06 I went throught and added please and thank you to a lot of the patrol templates. That's superficial compared to more links to better instructions
Feb 24 16:22:05 <LauraHale> Fluffernutter: You're not offering any value.
Feb 24 16:22:11 <russet> Philippe, perhaps LiveHelp?
Feb 24 16:22:18 <GerardM-> <grin> I tend to keep away from en.wp
Feb 24 16:22:26 <Philippe> Ziko_: are there statistics to show that mentoring makes a difference? I'd love to see a study.
Feb 24 16:22:31 <sgardner> GorillaWarfare: absolutely. I don't think patrollers should have to do anything differently. Their role is basically rapid response or first responder type work: they are doing triage. But I think there should be a place where they deliver the wounded, for other people to then patch up.
Feb 24 16:22:31 <GorillaWarfare> The problem with mentorship is... look at the adoption program! NetAlarm did what he could, but it's floundering
Feb 24 16:22:33 <Philippe> russet: I've been a fan of livehelp for a long time: )
Feb 24 16:22:37 <GerardM-> I would like to get more users in the other projects
Feb 24 16:22:40 <Orderinchaos> Ziko: most en-wp regulars get a colourful, friendly "welcome message" with helpful links within a short time of making their first edit, but I doubt many read it.
Feb 24 16:22:41 <LauraHale> Fluffernutter: There is a difference between saying: Edit! It will help you do this, that and the other thing! vs. Well, if you can't self actualize why this is good for you, we don't care about you and don't want you.
Feb 24 16:22:46 <jsalsman> how can we collect statistics on mentoring outcomes?
Feb 24 16:22:49 <GerardM-> the problems of en,wp are not universal
Feb 24 16:22:49 <GorillaWarfare> sgardner: That I definitely could support
Feb 24 16:22:51 <mindspillage> Fluffernutter: true--I think too little is made of the differential effect of anything done--how many of those who are in the population who can be helped by addressing a particular aspect does any particular measure help, rather than how many of the whole population.
Feb 24 16:22:56 <Ironholds> LauraHale: can I suggest some reading?
Feb 24 16:23:01 <GorillaWarfare> By the way, another +1 for livehelp
Feb 24 16:23:04 <Fluffernutter> LauraHale: yes, and i'm not saying the latter group is worth less, just that maybe we ought to pluck the low-hanging fruit first
Feb 24 16:23:08 <mindspillage> You can't get those who seenovalue by making editingmorewelcoming; you have to addressvalue instead.
Feb 24 16:23:11 <Ziko_> Philippe: No statistics, but we mentoren talked about on our mailinglist. it seems that we keep less than 5&% of the mentees as wikipedians
Feb 24 16:23:35 <GerardM-> that is a good score Ziko_
Feb 24 16:23:36 <russet> Phillipe, I'll write a proposal for LiveHelp and maybe something will happen...
Feb 24 16:23:38 * la_pianista (~la_pianis@wikipedia/La-Pianista) has joined #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 16:23:40 <Ziko_> Philippe: most do hardly anything, others create only one article
Feb 24 16:23:41 <jsalsman> IRC kind of is livehelp. I don't know why a widget would be better than the links that http://webchat.freenode.net/ can make
Feb 24 16:23:44 <Philippe> So it seems like right now, our current process is "Delete, or Don't." What about adding an interim step... "move to incubator" or something? Just a quick straw poll, how many of us would support something like that?
Feb 24 16:23:45 <LauraHale> Fluffernutter: These are the lowest hanging of fruit. They are people who could provide a lot of help if you just told them why it matters. And you don't need to worry as much about all the negative BS scaring them off.
Feb 24 16:23:52 <Philippe> (and I say that I would support it.)
Feb 24 16:23:59 <GorillaWarfare> To clarify, I think IRC should be the live help haha
Feb 24 16:24:07 <Ziko_> GerardM: less than five % can mean also 2 % :-)
Feb 24 16:24:08 <jayvdb> Philippe, +1
Feb 24 16:24:14 <mindspillage> jsalsman: IRC scares people! IRC is weird; widgets are common and known.
Feb 24 16:24:17 <russet> jsalsman, because IRC is lousy for new users
Feb 24 16:24:21 <Ironholds> Philippe: I would, it was my idea. Sorta :P
Feb 24 16:24:25 <Fluffernutter> Philippe: if it could be made as easy a process to incubate as to CSD (and maybe it is, i don;t know), then i could see some value in that
Feb 24 16:24:29 <GorillaWarfare> mindspillage: But what about the webchat? That's not entirely foreign
Feb 24 16:24:40 <Ironholds> .
Feb 24 16:24:41 <Ironholds> F.j
Feb 24 16:24:44 <geniice> Philippe no thankyou we already get enough complaints from the handful of people who go through user subpages and clear out the dross from time to time
Feb 24 16:24:46 <russet> and management is crazy; hang out in #wikipedia-en-help, jsalsman, and you'll see plenty of editors who have no clue
Feb 24 16:24:48 <Ironholds> damn. Sorry, keyboard fart.
Feb 24 16:24:48 <Ziko_> I believe that the difficulty of contributing by itself (all the rules, and technical stuff) is scaring people away. but we have the rules for good reasons
Feb 24 16:24:51 <GorillaWarfare> They don't need a client, it's pretty understandable to those who are unfamiliar
Feb 24 16:24:53 <sgardner> I think it's a good idea too, and I think it's probably working for the Russians. What are the arguments _against_ doing it?
Feb 24 16:24:54 * aude stepped away for dinner, now scrolls up and reads
Feb 24 16:25:01 <mindspillage> GorillaWarfare: still weird. How many people use web chat rooms on a regular basis? Compared to people who know and are familiar with chat widgets on other technical/customer support sites...
Feb 24 16:25:03 <Philippe> geniice gave us one, sue...
Feb 24 16:25:06 <sgardner> And/or, what would it take to make it happen?
Feb 24 16:25:13 <apergos> I think we shoudl try to save edits, in some fashion
Feb 24 16:25:15 <Philippe> it moves too much stuff that might be crap to userspace/the incubator
Feb 24 16:25:15 <Theo10011> good luck aude.
Feb 24 16:25:38 <Ironholds> is userspace patrolled by google?
Feb 24 16:25:40 <Philippe> Are there other complaints about the idea?
Feb 24 16:25:42 <Ironholds> as silly as it sounds
Feb 24 16:25:44 <Fluffernutter> it's not supposed to be, Ironholds
Feb 24 16:25:48 <Philippe> Ironholds: no, not supposed to
Feb 24 16:25:49 <Ironholds> then what's the issue?
Feb 24 16:25:51 <jayvdb> geniice, whether they are moved to userspace or a draft namespace, the idea is to put them in a place where they can be better managed
Feb 24 16:25:55 <jsalsman> Philippe: yes, just userfying with specific instructions instead of deleting would be wonderful
Feb 24 16:25:55 <GorillaWarfare> mindspillage: Perhaps we could create a widget that would link into the IRC feed somehow? You'd get the widget interface, but without having to have IRC and the widget be separate.
Feb 24 16:25:59 <LauraHale> As a female some one who rarely edits Wikipedia and doesn't much like contributing to Wikipedia, I don't see anything here that would inspire me to contribute.
Feb 24 16:26:03 <mindspillage> GorillaWarfare: perhaps...
Feb 24 16:26:06 <russet> GorillaWarfare, that's /hard/
Feb 24 16:26:07 * aude likes the incubator idea combined in some way with the article creation wizard (optional)
Feb 24 16:26:08 <Ironholds> we can fill userspace with crap as long as it's crap with a purpose. There's no damage to the project's goals if it's there while being edited.
Feb 24 16:26:10 <Fluffernutter> What we want to avoid is having things moved to userspace to incubate, and then just being...left there
Feb 24 16:26:11 <jayvdb> what happened to the 'draft' technology?
Feb 24 16:26:11 <geniice> jayvdb managed. Yeah our new editors don't like being managed
Feb 24 16:26:30 <GorillaWarfare> Yeah, that was speaking as someone completely unfamiliar with how that would actually be accomplished :D
Feb 24 16:26:31 <bawolff> jayvdb: I don't think the "draft" extension is a good approach
Feb 24 16:26:31 <russet> And it doesn't solve the issues, GorillaWarfare
Feb 24 16:26:32 <Philippe> Fluffernutter: so perhaps some sort of timeout on the incubator?
Feb 24 16:26:39 <Fluffernutter> Philippe, yes, that would work
Feb 24 16:26:42 <Philippe> If it doesn't get out in XXX days, then it self-deletes?
Feb 24 16:26:44 <GorillaWarfare> russet: The issues being... management?
Feb 24 16:26:49 <aude> and the irc help (but there's a web-based client available from the article creation wizard on wiki)
Feb 24 16:26:50 <russet> one sec
Feb 24 16:26:55 <Ironholds> Philippe: no, I'd disagree on that
Feb 24 16:27:01 <geniice> Philippe I think it's called prod. Or for BLPS sticky prod
Feb 24 16:27:02 <Fluffernutter> Philippe: i'd say maybe "if it hasn't been edited in X days" instead
Feb 24 16:27:03 <bawolff> People need help with articles, making it so only the user can view his article isn't going to increase collaboration
Feb 24 16:27:04 <jayvdb> Philippe, +1 to self-deletes; Werdna developed something like that
Feb 24 16:27:08 <aude> Eloquence: thanks for the link
Feb 24 16:27:10 <Orderinchaos> things tend to get lost in the article incubator because even few regular users know it exists
Feb 24 16:27:16 <Ironholds> how about "if it doesn't get out in XXX days, it's tagged as such so people can review it"
Feb 24 16:27:16 <sgardner> If we moved stuff to userspace for editing, I think we would also want/need to have experienced editors who are willing to work with those newbies -- to coach and support them.
Feb 24 16:27:19 <russet> GorillaWarfare, people don't know what they are talking about
Feb 24 16:27:30 <Ironholds> we don't want to kill stuff because the person's made it better but not worked out how to shove it in the mainspace
Feb 24 16:27:33 <GorillaWarfare> Ironholds: Then we'd run into the issue of finding people to review
Feb 24 16:27:36 * bawolff wonders whats wrong with just keeping these "not quite ready" articles in main namespace
Feb 24 16:27:40 <Fluffernutter> Ironholds's idea is also good, yes. that would catch the stuff that is good but someone just lost interest
Feb 24 16:27:43 <bawolff> it is a wiki after all
Feb 24 16:27:50 <Philippe> Ironholds: good point.
Feb 24 16:27:51 <geniice> jayvdb and intesly hostile. It's bad enough for our new users when deletions are done by something mostly human. By the software? now thats juest evil
Feb 24 16:27:53 <GorillaWarfare> russet: Valid point, but how would that be solved by a widget?
Feb 24 16:27:57 <Ironholds> GorillaWarfare: well, we already have the new unreviewed articles or whatnot area
Feb 24 16:28:12 <Ironholds> it wouldn't have to be more than an adaption of that
Feb 24 16:28:18 <Fluffernutter> Ironholds: and i know of...one person who ever goes there
Feb 24 16:28:24 <GorillaWarfare> True, although I don't do much of that patrolling...
Feb 24 16:28:25 * mindspillage laughs at the "mostly" human.
Feb 24 16:28:27 <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: BarkingFish? ;p
Feb 24 16:28:30 <GorillaWarfare> So I'm not familiar
Feb 24 16:28:33 <Fluffernutter> Dragonfly
Feb 24 16:28:34 <jsalsman> are there reasons that a livehelp widget would likely have better help than #wikipedia-en-help? Maybe because of the novelty and ease?
Feb 24 16:28:35 <russet> If anyone would like to talk specificallly about live help, join #wikimedia-livehelp
Feb 24 16:28:36 <Ironholds> mindspillage: I forget, you haven't met geniice ;p
Feb 24 16:28:44 <Ironholds> jsalsman: essentially. Personally, I'd support that.
Feb 24 16:28:52 <Philippe> russet, i'd love to see a group set up and work on that
Feb 24 16:28:52 <russet> jsalsman, easier for helpers and intergation with the editing interface
Feb 24 16:28:54 <GorillaWarfare> Oh god, two of these to follow
Feb 24 16:28:55 <Philippe> Go forth and do! :)
Feb 24 16:29:00 <russet> OK
Feb 24 16:29:05 <GorillaWarfare> Philippe/russet: Count me in
Feb 24 16:29:17 <russet> Philippe, where would be best? Meta? Outreach?
Feb 24 16:29:19 * palnatoke has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
Feb 24 16:29:24 <Philippe> Meta, probably.
Feb 24 16:29:28 <Orderinchaos> it's a shame that the "wikiproject" structure can't be utilised intelligently by software. i.e. have worklists of new articles added to active projects, so that regulars/knowledgeable contributors can save the ones that are worth saving. Most new articles never come to the attention of anyone who could improve them, because they don't appear on a watchlist.
Feb 24 16:29:35 <russet> OK. There's already a page at Outreach.
Feb 24 16:29:44 <russet> I'll see what I can do/
Feb 24 16:29:51 <Ironholds> one moment
Feb 24 16:29:52 <aude> also, whatever happened with Extension:Drafts
Feb 24 16:29:53 <aude> ?
Feb 24 16:29:54 * la_pianista is now known as pianista|brb
Feb 24 16:29:57 <geniice> Orderinchaos err AFDs are already listed on wikiprojects
Feb 24 16:29:57 <Eloquence> Orderinchaos: ArticleAlertBot might be able to do this with some help
Feb 24 16:30:03 <Ironholds> there's a one year old podling I either have to calm down or throttle. Brb.
Feb 24 16:30:15 <GorillaWarfare> "podling"
Feb 24 16:30:18 <Ironholds> "sprog"
Feb 24 16:30:19 <Philippe> "throttle" scares me
Feb 24 16:30:21 <Orderinchaos> (alexnewartbot kind of does this, but few know of its outputs)
Feb 24 16:30:22 <russet> Pending Changes could save us somehow, like on Wikinews
Feb 24 16:30:33 <GorillaWarfare> Oh goodness, pending changes
Feb 24 16:30:35 <Philippe> utoh
Feb 24 16:30:36 <russet> Articles could be created in the Main Space and edited
Feb 24 16:30:38 <Ironholds> Philippe: I like my children like I like my motorbikes. Cold and emotionally dead.
Feb 24 16:30:40 <sgardner> So if we wanted Twinkle to have an option to push articles to userpages, someone would have to build that, right? Would there need to be consensus to have it built, or could any random person just do it?
Feb 24 16:30:44 <bawolff> Orderinchaos: special:recentchangeslinked can sort of do shared watchlists, but no one reallyuses them as such
Feb 24 16:30:45 <Theo10011> oh noes.
Feb 24 16:30:53 <russet> But they wouldn't be seen by the public.
Feb 24 16:31:00 <Philippe> We'd proably need to set up some sort of Request for Comment on the project
Feb 24 16:31:01 <geniice> sgardner in theory anyone could do it yes
Feb 24 16:31:10 <Fluffernutter> don't worry Philippe, he'll only throttle her for as long as it takes to deliver her back to her parents
Feb 24 16:31:10 <Eloquence> sgardner: I doubt it would be very controversial to have userfy or article incubator options in twinkle.
Feb 24 16:31:11 <sgardner> Is there anyone here who could do it? :-)
Feb 24 16:31:11 <russet> Like Wikinews requires a peer review before articles appear on the Main Page.
Feb 24 16:31:14 <Philippe> Would that be something that anyone would be interested in doing?
Feb 24 16:31:16 <Ironholds> sgardner: I may have mentioned it already, but the guy who builds twinkle/friendly owes me a beer
Feb 24 16:31:20 <russet> It could be twisted somehow.
Feb 24 16:31:22 <GorillaWarfare> Huggle too? ¬.¬
Feb 24 16:31:28 <Ironholds> would it be worth pinging him, or getting him to ping someone here?
Feb 24 16:31:29 <sgardner> Very good. Ironholds, you're it :-)
Feb 24 16:31:32 <Philippe> LOL, yes, GorillaWarfare
Feb 24 16:31:33 <Ironholds> wait, what?
Feb 24 16:31:33 <sgardner> Yes, definitely!
Feb 24 16:31:37 <GerardM-> Can huggle be used in other languages ?
Feb 24 16:31:38 <Ironholds> I volunteered as a middle-man!
Feb 24 16:31:40 <Ironholds> curses
Feb 24 16:31:42 <Fluffernutter> hah
Feb 24 16:31:46 <GerardM-> can twinkle be used in other languages ?
Feb 24 16:31:47 <sgardner> And yes to Huggle. Those are the two most-used tools, right?
Feb 24 16:31:47 <Philippe> Well, that was kinda dumb, Ironholds
Feb 24 16:32:17 <sgardner> Good question GerardM. Do other language versions use Huggle/Twinkle, does anyone know?
Feb 24 16:32:22 <GerardM-> when such tools are english only they are broken by design
Feb 24 16:32:31 <Philippe> I think someone here should post it to features list, so that it's not coming from The Foundation (TM)
Feb 24 16:32:34 <Theo10011> No.
Feb 24 16:32:35 <russet> sgardner, yes
Feb 24 16:32:38 <Philippe> This is a community driven idea :)
Feb 24 16:32:46 <geniice> GerardM- you are operating under the impression they are designed
Feb 24 16:32:58 <sgardner> Theo says no, other language versions can't use Huggle/Twinkle.
Feb 24 16:33:01 <Ironholds> Philippe: works for me. If someone wants to /query it to me (I've lost it in the flood) I'll make a note to shove it up this morning and remind him about the pint of Hells' Belle he bought me.
Feb 24 16:33:01 * russet is afraid of 'community-driven ideas' after FR2010
Feb 24 16:33:03 <sgardner> But russet, are you saying yes?
Feb 24 16:33:04 <GerardM-> when we consider them in strategy they are part of it
Feb 24 16:33:12 <Jan_eissfeldt> GerardM-: yes, it can and is in use but it is unpopular and lacks an update (so i'm told)
Feb 24 16:33:15 <RoanKattouw> GerardM-: With resourceloader, localization of Twinkle should be next to trivial
Feb 24 16:33:16 <Ironholds> *I bought him
Feb 24 16:33:17 <Theo10011> As far as I know Gerard.
Feb 24 16:33:19 <GerardM-> and when they are en only they do not fit our needs
Feb 24 16:33:21 <Orderinchaos> gerard: they sort of evolved into existence to fill a need on en
Feb 24 16:33:24 <RoanKattouw> I hear AzaToth wants to rewrite it to use the API anyway
Feb 24 16:33:25 <russet> sgardner, yes I am saying yes. Typically when someone says yes, they mean yes. :)
Feb 24 16:33:39 <russet> jQuery Forever!
Feb 24 16:33:39 <Philippe> To what, russet?
Feb 24 16:33:45 <RoanKattouw> russet++
Feb 24 16:33:55 * pianista|brb is now known as la_pianista
Feb 24 16:34:07 <geniice> GerardM- I think recent events in Belgium clearly establish that multiple languages are evil
Feb 24 16:34:11 <sgardner> Two most-used tools. Russet I got it, sorry :-)
Feb 24 16:34:11 <Orderinchaos> I'm not sure why huggle in particular would be en-only. my understanding is it logs in from the outside, kind of like AWB - which I've personally used to log into other wikis.
Feb 24 16:34:14 <apergos> oh using the api, that would be awesome
Feb 24 16:34:15 <russet> Is HG/TW used elsewhere? Philippe, sgardner
Feb 24 16:34:15 <Eloquence> GerardM-: every language edition has different article workflows. I think right now the biggest question is what kinds of changes actually make a difference. before having solid data, I would be reluctant to organize a lot of of localization or integration effort. we don't even know if twinkle is a net benefit.
Feb 24 16:34:22 <russet> Yes, Philippe, sgardner
Feb 24 16:34:28 <Ironholds> woah, flood
Feb 24 16:34:29 * russet is now known as Mono
Feb 24 16:34:30 <sgardner> russet: thanks :-)
Feb 24 16:34:31 <Theo10011> Sorry, I'm having a hard time following everything.
Feb 24 16:34:37 <bawolff> Eloquence: +1
Feb 24 16:34:42 <Philippe> OK, so Theo has a good point....
Feb 24 16:34:43 <Mono> It's crazy right now. Can't wait for the logs.
Feb 24 16:34:47 <Mono> Anyone have logs up yet?
Feb 24 16:34:50 <Philippe> this is freaking great to have this kind of discussion.
Feb 24 16:34:55 <Orderinchaos> (actually eloquence raises a good point i hadn't thought of. start enforcing en rules on fr and de and watch the fireworks...)
Feb 24 16:35:04 <Philippe> I think it deserves a space on the wikis where people can talk about it
Feb 24 16:35:09 <Philippe> Would someone like to create a proposal somewhere?
Feb 24 16:35:09 <apergos> so was this discussion supposed to focus (some) on gender and editing btw?
Feb 24 16:35:13 * aude is figuring out pending changes on arabic wiki
Feb 24 16:35:16 <Mono> Philippe, what specifically?
Feb 24 16:35:22 <bawolff> I maintain some js tools on wikinews. Actually translating them to another language is trivial. Making it actuallywork with the other communties processes is the major pain
Feb 24 16:35:22 <aude> what a backlog!
Feb 24 16:35:22 <sgardner> It could if you want it to, apergos :-)
Feb 24 16:35:25 <Philippe> Mono: i'm not being specific, on purpose :)
Feb 24 16:35:29 <geniice> Incerdently are you guys seriously suggesting that the best way to make new users feel welcome is to throw yet more automated tools at them
Feb 24 16:35:29 <GerardM-> the issue is not enforcing rules, it is making tools available and see how and if they work
Feb 24 16:35:31 <Philippe> On whatever people think is growing out of this
Feb 24 16:35:37 <apergos> I'm happy to let it be where it is, seems peple have a good topic
Feb 24 16:35:39 <Orderinchaos> bawolff: i take your point :)
Feb 24 16:35:42 <Ironholds> geniice: I think it's more about tailoring the current tools
Feb 24 16:35:43 <GorillaWarfare> geniice: I don't believe so
Feb 24 16:35:45 <Philippe> I'm trying to find a way to make this be more than discussion and translate into action
Feb 24 16:35:49 <Mono> WYSIWYGYWYSIGYI could help.
Feb 24 16:35:53 <Orderinchaos> gerard: but the tools are based on the rules at en.
Feb 24 16:35:56 <Ironholds> offering them a teddy bear and a hug rather than an iron grip of cold, emotionless death
Feb 24 16:35:57 * Mono still won't bother to spell that right
Feb 24 16:36:12 <Orderinchaos> which in turn are a product of that community.
Feb 24 16:36:12 <Ironholds> althugh they can have the emotionless death if they want. Lord knows we have some odd users.
Feb 24 16:36:13 <jayvdb> geniice, new users who create new pages are already immediately faced with Twinkle/Huggle etc
Feb 24 16:36:13 <GerardM-> so they cannot be part of a strategy
Feb 24 16:36:17 <sgardner> I'd like to ask a quick clarification question of anyone who knows the answer. The Russian Incubator... is it the same mechanism as "pushing weak new articles to userspace"?
Feb 24 16:36:20 <geniice> Ironholds yes but it's an automated teddybear
Feb 24 16:36:24 <GorillaWarfare> Mono: What would be WYSIWYG?
Feb 24 16:36:26 * brion has quit (Quit: brion)
Feb 24 16:36:28 <geniice> jayvdb and thats part of the problem
Feb 24 16:36:30 <GerardM-> sue it is not
Feb 24 16:36:35 * Magina (~magina@) has joined #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 16:36:37 <Philippe> Is there anyone here who can talk about the Russian incubator?
Feb 24 16:36:37 <Magina> In stark terms, Wikipedia is one of the single most important undertakings in human history. If we do our job, future generations will look upon Wikipedia as the cornerstone of the information revolution. If we don't, the world will lose a tremendous resource. This is why we need to keep the jews out...
Feb 24 16:36:42 <Philippe> I'd like to hear more about it
Feb 24 16:36:44 <sgardner> Gerard, could you explain it a little?
Feb 24 16:36:57 <jayvdb> geniice, I agree, but deleting WP:Twinkle isnt possible
Feb 24 16:37:01 <geniice> jayvdb new users turn up and get hit by a bunch of semi automated stuff and find it near impossible to talk to anything halway human
Feb 24 16:37:02 <GorillaWarfare> Mono: Thanks
Feb 24 16:37:04 <Eloquence> geniice: Folks were talking about making it easy to take an action that may be perceived as less hostile (e.g. userfy/incubate) as opposed to just making it easy to nominate for deletion.
Feb 24 16:37:19 <geniice> jayvdb actualy the devs did it a couple of days ago
Feb 24 16:37:28 <GerardM-> when newbies are new, they are invited to move to the incubator, this is where they are helped with understanding the environment and in writing articles
Feb 24 16:37:31 <Mono> I don't like it, but something similar might work for newbies
Feb 24 16:37:33 <jayvdb> o.O
Feb 24 16:37:37 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to Philippe
Feb 24 16:37:43 <geniice> Eloquence if you userfy the new user won't be able to find where the article went
Feb 24 16:37:46 * Philippe has kicked Magina from #wikimedia-office (Magina)
Feb 24 16:37:54 <Philippe> That'll be enough of that then. :)
Feb 24 16:37:56 <GorillaWarfare> I'm still all for pushing users to come to live chat/IRC/what have you
Feb 24 16:37:58 <Orderinchaos> +1 Philippe
Feb 24 16:37:59 <geniice> jayvdb switch to HTML 5 broke various tools
Feb 24 16:38:02 <apergos> thanks
Feb 24 16:38:03 <GerardM-> the result is that they do not have to be in the pressure cooker of instant deletion and hardache
Feb 24 16:38:03 * Fluffernutter applauds Philippe
Feb 24 16:38:12 <Mono> GorillaWarfare, that would help
Feb 24 16:38:28 <Eloquence> geniice: that's debatable. it may be possible to build such systems in a way that's understandable. having better software support for drafting spaces might be nice.
Feb 24 16:38:32 <Orderinchaos> yeah like I said, I once found myself dealing with an editor who was an assoc professor in history and wrote like a history academic, and had found himself on the wrong side of everything. i knew the topic and knew he was right, stuck up for him and within hours things for him were back to normal and he's since contributed productively though infrequently to a very narrow range of
Feb 24 16:38:32 <Orderinchaos> similarly obscure topics.
Feb 24 16:38:38 <Mono> but I think a widget (see http://olark.com for a design example) would be nice on certain pages
Feb 24 16:38:39 <apergos> some people will be comfortabel with live chat and others will not... we need to accomodate both groups
Feb 24 16:38:42 <Philippe> Eloquence, is there software support at all for it now?
Feb 24 16:38:45 <Philippe> i honestly don't know.
Feb 24 16:38:49 <Eloquence> Philippe: for drafts?
Feb 24 16:38:50 <aude> +1 for GorillaWarfare 's idea of live chat
Feb 24 16:38:52 <Philippe> yes
Feb 24 16:38:55 <Mono> Let's fix the help pages.
Feb 24 16:38:58 <Philippe> +1 on that
Feb 24 16:39:00 <GerardM-> it works for the Russians and they grow 68% on an annual basis
Feb 24 16:39:01 <Philippe> (and +1 on help)
Feb 24 16:39:03 <GorillaWarfare> aude: Not mine, but thank you
Feb 24 16:39:08 <geniice> does anyone actualy read the help pages?
Feb 24 16:39:11 <sgardner> Orderinchaos: that's a nice story. I'm glad you rescued him :-)
Feb 24 16:39:15 <Philippe> geniice: yes.
Feb 24 16:39:15 <Orderinchaos> (by "wrote like a history academic" interpret "<list of random acronyms he was unintentionally violating>"
Feb 24 16:39:16 * Snowolf (~Snowolf@wikimedia/Snowolf) has joined #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 16:39:18 <Mono> geniice, they try
Feb 24 16:39:24 <Eloquence> Philippe: no, Trevor wrote an undeployed and unfinished extension for GMail-style "save drafts", that's the only code we have.
Feb 24 16:39:28 <Mono> but they have a terrible time
Feb 24 16:39:29 <Theo10011> Hi Snowolf
Feb 24 16:39:29 <Philippe> Thanks, Eloquence
Feb 24 16:39:37 <geniice> this is web 2.1 man. 140 characters or less
Feb 24 16:39:45 <Philippe> lol@geniice
Feb 24 16:39:59 <Philippe> apergos: so, you raised a point about gender...
Feb 24 16:40:04 <GorillaWarfare> geniice: Sounds like an offshoot of Simple Wikipedia... 140charWikipedia
Feb 24 16:40:16 <Philippe> do these tools do anything to address the gender gap, or are they a "rising tide lifts all ships/genders" thing?
Feb 24 16:40:36 <Fluffernutter> Philippe, i think anything that reduces general bitiness will prop up the number of women who stick around
Feb 24 16:40:53 <GorillaWarfare> What exactly are we trying to accomplish by getting more female editors, exactly?
Feb 24 16:40:58 <geniice> zee problem is step 2
Feb 24 16:41:00 <shimgray> Philippe: partly the latter, but also - how efficient is it to try fixing the gender gap when we *know* we're scaring new users off?
Feb 24 16:41:05 <Fluffernutter> (everyone stand back, i'm going to generalize!) Women tend to be more put-off by biting than men do
Feb 24 16:41:09 <Mono> Just about everyone I know would never think of editing Wikipedia.
Feb 24 16:42:43 <sgardner> It is hilarious that Erik said that, and then left.
Feb 24 16:42:50 <GorillaWarfare> I just don't really know why women are the underrepresented demographic we're targeting, but I'll drop it
Feb 24 16:42:50 <Philippe> (cept for that weird floating title on the side)
Feb 24 16:42:57 <Mono> geniice, WYSIWYG then
Feb 24 16:43:01 <Orderinchaos> sgardner: yes :)
Feb 24 16:43:03 <Philippe> GorillaWarfare: They're the initial one. They might not be the only one
Feb 24 16:43:06 <Philippe> Gotta start somewhere though, right?
Feb 24 16:43:09 * Eloquence (~erik@wikipedia/Eloquence) has joined #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 16:43:14 <Philippe> He's back.
Feb 24 16:43:15 <GorillaWarfare> Mm, I suppose
Feb 24 16:43:17 <sgardner> Seriously, GorillaWarfare. I don't want to have an argument, I'm just curious. Do you think it's a bad idea, or does something about it bother you?
Feb 24 16:43:20 <geniice> have fun working out how to WYSIWYG that code
Feb 24 16:43:29 <bawolff> Mono: The solution is to blacklist the style attribute, so people can't do ugly things like that :P
Feb 24 16:43:46 <Orderinchaos> gorilla: comes down to, if the group editing wikipedia actually better resembles the world at large, then wikipedias choice and coverage of topics tends to move towards a complete reach.
Feb 24 16:43:49 <Mono> Urm, that's the fix.
Feb 24 16:43:51 <Ironholds> sgardner: to be fair, I think it's a bad idea, although since it's the one we're working with I've sent you a proposal to maybe gather some hard data ;p
Feb 24 16:43:51 <sgardner> Sorry, GorillaWarfare, just saw what you last wrote.
Feb 24 16:43:52 <Mono> See the diff.
Feb 24 16:43:55 <apergos> maybe we could not have to argue *every time* this discussion comes up about whether it;s good to have more women edit, or whether we should think there's a problem?
Feb 24 16:44:08 <apergos> otherwise I guess we could spend *all* the time doing that and never reach the question
Feb 24 16:44:14 <geniice> okey
Feb 24 16:44:16 <Mono> geniice, one of our better community coders is working on it.
Feb 24 16:44:18 <Fluffernutter> apergos++
Feb 24 16:44:20 <apergos> (yeah I must be a bit punchy about this topic)
Feb 24 16:44:26 <Philippe> apergos: and you think that's, in some way , sub-optimal? <grin>
Feb 24 16:44:27 <geniice> I know
Feb 24 16:44:34 <geniice> you want drafts
Feb 24 16:44:37 * Jan_eissfeldt proposes that every person, who never found a way into a well sorted university library of gender & queer studies before the nyt article, take five minutes to read the (simplistic) entry "gender" in the encyclopedia of social theory. thus, we, maybe, can save the last 30 years, the arguments and the biocentric-binary stuff, too
Feb 24 16:44:50 <apergos> that would be nice Jan_eissfeldt
Feb 24 16:44:51 <geniice> okey what should I do about this
Feb 24 16:45:03 <Ironholds> GorillaWarfare: I think the argument (and I disagree with the initial supposition, but the argument is valid nonetheless) is that it's ehe easiest underrepresented demographic to reach out to, in that other underrepresented groups (sub-saharan africa, for example) have serious technical impairments in relation to getting on the internet in the first place
Feb 24 16:45:04 <geniice> now policy says sticky prod
Feb 24 16:45:18 <geniice> it's a BLP without refs. It should die
Feb 24 16:45:23 <sgardner> Jan_eissfeldt, LOL. You are so Swedish. This Canadian salutes you :-)
Feb 24 16:45:33 <GorillaWarfare> Ironholds: I completely see that. I guess I'm in the same boat of disagreeing with the initial supposition.
Feb 24 16:45:46 <Jan_eissfeldt> ;)
Feb 24 16:46:03 <Philippe> So, I love the concept of "disagree but do". If theres sufficient interest around DOING something... is it the sort of thing you guys would help with?
Feb 24 16:46:08 <Fluffernutter> Ironholds/ GorillaWarfare: again, it's the low-hanging fruit thing. Being more welcoming to women will not preclude us later, or at the same time, being more welcoming to other minorities. It's just the easiest one to get a handle on righ tnow
Feb 24 16:46:15 <Eloquence> Ironholds: The (wonderfully ambitious) board-approved five-year goals actually call for doubling both female editors and "Global South" editors in terms of percentage.
Feb 24 16:46:18 <Ironholds> Fluffernutter: that's what I said!
Feb 24 16:46:26 <GorillaWarfare> Fluffernutter: As a female editor, I don't feel unwelcome because of it...
Feb 24 16:46:27 <Ironholds> Eloquence: oh, I know. I'm playing devil's advocate here ;p
Feb 24 16:46:28 <Mono> Philippe, is there a way I could import some of the LiveHelp stuff on outreachwiki to Meta? Otherwise, I'll build it on Outreach Wiki.
Feb 24 16:46:28 <Fluffernutter> Ironholds: yes, but i used fewer words
Feb 24 16:46:34 <Philippe> GorillaWarfare: But you're one of the ones who made it.
Feb 24 16:46:48 <Philippe> Mono: I have no idea.
Feb 24 16:46:52 <Ironholds> Philippe: I'd be interested in helping out - I have sent summat in to sgardner, but she be a busy woman
Feb 24 16:46:52 <Philippe> I haven't looked ati t.
Feb 24 16:46:54 <Philippe> at it*
Feb 24 16:46:59 <GorillaWarfare> Heh, dramatic. I suppose, but I don't see why women are predisposed to NOT make it, I suppose. Perhaps this is an argument for another time, though.
Feb 24 16:47:02 <geniice> sgardner you support drafts what should I do about that article?
Feb 24 16:47:21 <Ironholds> GorillaWarfare: I'd be happy to give you my views on the subject, but it's going to flood the chan ;p
Feb 24 16:47:21 * Fluffernutter is also a female editor. I don't feel unwelcome, exactly, but that's because a) i toil in gnomism and b) I was lucky enough to never be bitten until i had an established wiki-identity
Feb 24 16:47:36 <sgardner> Ironholds, yeah, I've got it, and thank you for it. I've skimmed it but need to read it properly, which will happen sometime in the next few days :-)
Feb 24 16:47:37 <Philippe> geniice: I think we all know that individual articles are individual cases, and you're postulating on a hypothetical. We don't HAVE a draft namespace now. :)
Feb 24 16:47:50 <apergos> as a non male editor I definitely feel a hostile atmosphere which doesn't make me want to edit. and I have cut back severely on contribution on a project because of that hostility. Specifically "we prefer expereinced editors over a nice atmosphere of collaboration"
Feb 24 16:47:55 <shimgray> Eloquence: yeah, but even in the "Global south" we're doing the same thing - we're targeting India because we can get the best "return on investment" there.
Feb 24 16:48:02 <geniice> Philippe I could create a psudo namespace in under 30 seconds
Feb 24 16:48:03 <GorillaWarfare> Fluffernutter: I disagree with the idea that a female editor getting bitten will act differently than a male editor in the same position
Feb 24 16:48:20 <Philippe> geniice: but that wouldn't create the underlying system of social norms :)
Feb 24 16:48:21 <Fluffernutter> apergos: which ties into the notion of vested editors and civility police and all that stuff that always ends in screaming
Feb 24 16:48:27 <geniice> Philippe and indivdual articles are what we have to work with
Feb 24 16:48:29 <Orderinchaos> i personally would love to read a collection of articles about Tripoli or Baghdad or Kabul as detailed as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suburbs_of_Melbourne - I'm sure many journalists would agree with me
Feb 24 16:48:33 <Philippe> If we had a draft namespace, I would advocate for moving that to it.
Feb 24 16:48:42 <sgardner> shimgray, not really. We're targeting India because so there is a huge number of Indians online, and poised to come online in the near future.
Feb 24 16:48:48 * Fluffernutter can only speak for herself, GorillaWarfare. I know that when I'm bitten, my instinct is to flinch and hide, not to come out swinging
Feb 24 16:48:51 * bawolff remembers when the wiki was a draft namespace
Feb 24 16:48:59 <LauraHale> Orderinchaos: Have you contacted journalists and universities, encouraging them to improve those articles?
Feb 24 16:49:07 <Philippe> heh, bawolff I mentioned that, and got called a geezer
Feb 24 16:49:17 <geniice> Philippe But it's a BLP vio
Feb 24 16:49:20 <GorillaWarfare> Fluffernutter: Yeah, I suppose I'd be more of the opposite. Probably explains why I don't understand all of this entirely :P
Feb 24 16:49:38 <Philippe> geniice: that's what I mean about social norms :)
Feb 24 16:49:44 <apergos> don't want civility police... but definitely don't want "my time is too valuable to coddle someone, if you don't like it I'll leave" sort of thing, or even worse "if we step in and interven we'll lose editor X and we can't, so we'll let bad behavior Y just go on..."
Feb 24 16:49:45 <Philippe> we need norms to support the technology
Feb 24 16:49:59 <Philippe> You can bat down any plan in the world if the norms don't change to support it
Feb 24 16:50:02 <shimgray> sgardner: I think we're saying the same thing, there, in different ways :-)
Feb 24 16:50:03 <geniice> Philippe are you advocating weaking wikipedia's BLP policy?
Feb 24 16:50:06 <Orderinchaos> Laura: my point was most of the Melb articles were created by people who live there, used local libraries to improve content/coverage, etc
Feb 24 16:50:07 <apergos> and yes I can give specific examples (off channel, not to be logged).
Feb 24 16:50:07 <jsalsman> honestly, we get statistics that say 15% in a ~50-50 split of the existing potential pool of editors, and I have never seen so many people come out of the woodwork questioning it
Feb 24 16:50:20 <Mono> I feel like there are too many outreach projects doing the same thing.
Feb 24 16:50:22 <Philippe> geniice: don't be silly. I'm advocating for having a place where articles can be strengthened.
Feb 24 16:50:34 <sgardner> Hey I have a question. If there was a way to dip in and out of helping newbies (by lurking in a live chat space or patrolling some kind of New Article Incubator space) .. would the folks here be interested in doing it?
Feb 24 16:50:45 <Mono> sgardner, of course
Feb 24 16:50:46 <Risker> I like the idea of an article incubator, with an established time period and some dedicated help
Feb 24 16:50:46 <sgardner> shimgray: yeah, I hear you. We probably are.
Feb 24 16:50:52 <Mono> We already do that, sgardner
Feb 24 16:50:58 <Philippe> Where's Jamesofur....? That's one of the things he's passionate about.
Feb 24 16:50:58 <sgardner> How do you do it?
Feb 24 16:51:00 <sgardner> Today?
Feb 24 16:51:01 <apergos> I try to do a little of that on the projects I'm active on (help newbies)
Feb 24 16:51:02 <Fluffernutter> sgardner, how is that any different than lurking in -en-help or working in AFC?
Feb 24 16:51:06 <Philippe> The -help channels on IRC...
Feb 24 16:51:08 * DarkoNeko has quit (Quit: Pissing off 4chan: free. Botnet hire: $1,000/month. For everything else, there's Masterc– oh, wait, not any more.)
Feb 24 16:51:17 <Mono> sgardner, #wikipedia-en-help
Feb 24 16:51:19 <GorillaWarfare> sgardner: Yes, I would
Feb 24 16:51:20 <jsalsman> on super bowl sunday I decided to critique the enwiki and simple english wiki birth control articles, and people were asking me why I was asking about it. Any other topic people would have just commented on it without question, in my experience. There is a real and visceral systemic bias
Feb 24 16:51:21 <Risker> Mono, not exactly, but it does work quite well
Feb 24 16:51:25 <apergos> I would not be able to extend that to en wp, I'm not active there
Feb 24 16:51:49 <Mono> We have the WMF angle with Philippe and sgardner, Outreach with Frank and fellows, Jamesofur and his WikiGuides, Zack and his CONTRIB
Feb 24 16:51:59 <sgardner> geniice, I did spend time there, although I mostly ignored the red usernames and took a look at the new people with userpages.
Feb 24 16:51:59 <Mono> Too much overlap
Feb 24 16:52:03 <Philippe> Well, except, mono, you've got those all butchered :)
Feb 24 16:52:20 * Mono knew that
Feb 24 16:52:23 <Ironholds> hah
Feb 24 16:52:26 <geniice> sgardner if they have userpages they are unlikely to be new
Feb 24 16:52:33 <jsalsman> yet nobody complained, questions, or made any meta coments at all about the detailed, fact-free super bown game comments which took up hours solid on #wikipedia-en just prior
Feb 24 16:52:44 <Mono> It's all overlapping and so confusing...I have no idea where the 'minigrants' actually go
Feb 24 16:52:49 <sgardner> Actually a lot of them self-identified on their pages as new. But I know what you mean: they were newish :-)
Feb 24 16:52:51 <Mono> and then there are the chapters
Feb 24 16:52:54 <shimgray> geniice: new article userfication! doesn't that usually go to the userpage rather than subpages?
Feb 24 16:52:58 * Jamesofur_ (~chatzilla@wikimedia/Jamesofur) has joined #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 16:53:03 <Mono> How about AFC on the Toolserver?
Feb 24 16:53:05 <Philippe> Mono, if you want to write up some questions specific to that and send them to me, I'll be happy to answer.
Feb 24 16:53:14 <Philippe> but send by email please
Feb 24 16:53:17 <Mono> OK
Feb 24 16:53:20 <geniice> shimgray thats hwne the person has written about themselves no?
Feb 24 16:53:29 <Philippe> so I can give them carefully considered responses, and not twitter-tweet length ones.
Feb 24 16:53:46 <Mono> Philippe, I'd like some minigrants for some projects I have a personal interest in (like LiveHelp) :)
Feb 24 16:54:13 <sgardner> So if I were a Wikipedian who wanted to coach and support new editors who are trying to write articles about let's say accounting topics .. is there an easy way for me to find them?
Feb 24 16:54:15 <apergos> haha ( Philippe )
Feb 24 16:54:15 * Mono is just commenting ;)
Feb 24 16:54:19 <geniice> just nuked their new article (advert copyvio)
Feb 24 16:54:24 <Orderinchaos> (i've used that service, most of the answers are scripted but tailored to my situation, much like a real front-desk librarian.)
Feb 24 16:54:29 * GorillaWarfare (~GorillaWa@wikipedia/GorillaWarfare) has left #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 16:54:30 <shimgray> sgardner: convolutedly, but yes
Feb 24 16:54:31 <geniice> talkpage full of info. Serious wall of text issue
Feb 24 16:54:44 <Mono> geniice, if you use the article wizard, it's pretty clear about that, but I
Feb 24 16:54:48 <sgardner> shimgray: where would I go? (Or is it just not that simple.)
Feb 24 16:54:58 <Mono> would never sit through that whole thing, which is the problem
Feb 24 16:55:00 <Mono> imgray> geniice: new article userfication! doesn't that usually go to the userpage rather than subpages?
Feb 24 16:55:00 <Mono> *** Jamesofur_ has joined: #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 16:55:00 <Mono> <Mono> How about AFC on the Toolserver?
Feb 24 16:55:00 <Mono> <Philippe> Mono, if you want to write up some questions specific to that and send them to me, I'll be happy to answer.
Feb 24 16:55:00 <Mono> <Philippe> but send by email please
Feb 24 16:55:00 <sgardner> (If it's not that simple, that's okay.)
Feb 24 16:55:01 <Mono> <Mono> OK
Feb 24 16:55:01 <Mono> <geniice> shimgray thats hwne the person has written about themselves no?
Feb 24 16:55:01 <shimgray> there's a bot which assesses new pages for "project relevance" - it doesn't tag them but it runs a daily report. one sec.
Feb 24 16:55:02 <Mono> <Philippe> so I can give them carefully considered responses, and not twitter-tweet length ones.
Feb 24 16:55:02 <Mono> <Mono> Philippe, I'd like some minigrants for some projects I have a personal interest in (like LiveHelp) :)
Feb 24 16:55:04 <Mono> <shimgray> yeah, but there's plenty of those :-)
Feb 24 16:55:04 <Mono> <Philippe> Mono, you mised the "by
Feb 24 16:55:05 <Mono> whoa
Feb 24 16:55:09 <Mono> oops
Feb 24 16:55:12 <geniice> Mono In this case the useer didn't
Feb 24 16:55:18 <Ironholds> sgardner: accounting topics? Hah. I've found a total of three new law nuts in five years ;p
Feb 24 16:55:25 <Orderinchaos> mono: pastefail :P
Feb 24 16:55:36 <sgardner> Philippe has run off to get a beverage from the kitchen, FYI :-)
Feb 24 16:55:36 <Mono> Wrong key.
Feb 24 16:55:41 <Ironholds> we've got no clear way of directing people towards say, registering at the projects surrounding their areas of interest
Feb 24 16:55:47 <Ironholds> which is possibly a deficiency
Feb 24 16:55:56 <jsalsman> sgardner: coaching works so much better on the Reference Desk j.mp/wikidesk -- people are so much kinder and numerous there compared to e.g. Articles for Creation etc
Feb 24 16:55:57 <Mono> Which is the problem with text-only pages.
Feb 24 16:55:59 <Ironholds> it's basically "hope they find it on their own/some kind person with a similar interest finds them"
Feb 24 16:56:05 <sgardner> I was wishful thinking with accounting topics. Although the guy who does my taxes edits the Hungarian WP :-)
Feb 24 16:56:06 <Mono> Facebook does a much better job at similar things.
Feb 24 16:56:08 <shimgray> sgardner: here's an example of the new-article tracking
Feb 24 16:56:10 <geniice> Ironholds thats what portals are meant to do
Feb 24 16:56:15 <geniice> Ironholds didn't really work out
Feb 24 16:56:20 <Risker> Sgardner, a while back I tried to find people who understood the stock market to fix up an article we knew was badly bent....went all over the place, never got anyone knowledgeable to edit it
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Feb 24 16:56:23 <Mono> Because they have a different inferstructure.
Feb 24 16:56:24 <shimgray> (I believe it runs mostly on keywords)
Feb 24 16:56:24 <Jamesofur_> Wikiprojects are an enormous and, imo, underutilized for new users
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Feb 24 16:56:39 <Philippe> Risker, what about a "I have skillz in this area" type registration?
Feb 24 16:56:46 <geniice> sgardner incerdently how much do you know about Hudong wiki's social tools?
Feb 24 16:56:49 <shimgray> so, we could leverage something like that to find people who're adding new material on a topic.
Feb 24 16:56:50 <jayvdb> Philippe, userboxes ?
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Feb 24 16:56:59 <Eloquence> Jamesofur_: absolutely true.
Feb 24 16:56:59 <Philippe> jayvdb, I'd love if they wre used for that :)
Feb 24 16:57:01 <sgardner> Risker: yeah. We need Michael Lewis really for that; he is utterly unique.
Feb 24 16:57:02 <Mono> Philippe, age and gender could be helpful for asking which goes back to Outreach Wiki's ACIP
Feb 24 16:57:03 <Orderinchaos> Ironholds: and of course most regular editors use watchlists rather than recent changes.
Feb 24 16:57:06 <jsalsman> help desk questions get answered more thuroughly and politely and much faster on the Reference Desk than they do on the Help Desk
Feb 24 16:57:09 <Mono> Jamesofur_, they aren't active enough
Feb 24 16:57:17 <Philippe> geniice, whats the story on those hudong tools?
Feb 24 16:57:19 <jayvdb> btw, Extension:Babel is a good step forward to help proper capturing of skills
Feb 24 16:57:22 * Mono is now known as Willie
Feb 24 16:57:25 <jayvdb> GerardM-, ^
Feb 24 16:57:28 <Jamesofur_> frequently not true, they're are plenty of them active but new users can't find them
Feb 24 16:57:28 * Willie has quit (Quit: oops)
Feb 24 16:57:29 <geniice> Philippe doable through interlang hacks. Looked in it a few years back but realised I'd effectively have to write the entire database
Feb 24 16:57:33 <Philippe> (Sue stepped afk for a sec... her turn to get a drink.... this chat thing is thirst making)
Feb 24 16:57:38 <Risker> I went to people who were editing articles in the topic area, Philippe. Perhaps it was the aura of that particular article
Feb 24 16:57:41 <Ironholds> right, I'm virtually unconscious. Sleep time.
Feb 24 16:57:46 <geniice> Philippe hudong isn't a tool. hudong is the largest wiki in existance
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Feb 24 16:57:58 <GorillaWarfare> Sorry for stepping back in after missing a bit, but I feel like live help on IRC/etc. would be more effecitive than help desk and Helpme type things
Feb 24 16:58:02 <jsalsman> has anyone ever had a bad Reference Desk experience?
Feb 24 16:58:07 <Philippe> geniice: you said tools :)
Feb 24 16:58:11 <Philippe> I was asking about them
Feb 24 16:58:12 <russet> GorillaWarfare, and it saves on revisions
Feb 24 16:58:18 <russet> and it's just easier for everyone
Feb 24 16:58:19 <GorillaWarfare> That too
Feb 24 16:58:32 <jsalsman> the worst that happens on the Reference Desk is that a question gets called homework, and then five people come along after and answer it anyway
Feb 24 16:58:35 <russet> The whole 'make an edit for help' thing is lousy overall
Feb 24 16:58:54 <GorillaWarfare> russet: Slow, too
Feb 24 16:58:57 <Risker> the problem with IRC is that usually those who come here have a level of technical savviness that means they're least likely to need help
Feb 24 16:58:57 * Fluffernutter is now known as Fluff|away
Feb 24 16:59:05 <geniice> Philippe yes hudong has tools. But I don't speak chinese and have no involvement with hudong so I don't have a clue how it delveloped. I know more about TVTrope's softwear history than hudong
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Feb 24 16:59:22 <GorillaWarfare> Risker: I feel like the webchat links at least try to help with that
Feb 24 16:59:33 <shimgray> GorillaWarfare: yeah. in many ways we're restricted by making ourselves use the mediawiki form for all these things!
Feb 24 16:59:38 <shimgray> when you have a hammer...
Feb 24 16:59:40 <russet> In #wikipedia-en-help, we either get AFC questions like "When will it be reviewed? or It was declined." which all have the same answer or
Feb 24 16:59:46 <geniice> sgardner anyway how much do you know about Hudong wiki's social tools?
Feb 24 16:59:48 <Philippe> shimgray: ...you wish you had a wrench
Feb 24 16:59:50 <sgardner> GorillaWarfare, I know other people said this before, but it's really true and worth reinforcing --- most people never use IRC.
Feb 24 16:59:52 <russet> people with big problems, like edit wars and blocks
Feb 24 16:59:57 <russet> Risker^
Feb 24 17:00:02 <apergos> yes
Feb 24 17:00:09 <GorillaWarfare> russet: And wondering where their articles went
Feb 24 17:00:10 <apergos> most editors let alone users
Feb 24 17:00:11 <sgardner> Nothing geniice, why? -- tell me about them.
Feb 24 17:00:18 <apergos> never set foot in any irc channel
Feb 24 17:00:26 <russet> apergos, this is one.
Feb 24 17:00:33 <russet> :p
Feb 24 17:00:40 <Risker> russet, I edited for several years before I started on IRC, and it has a rather (deservedly) bad reputation amongst a LOT of editors
Feb 24 17:00:46 <GorillaWarfare> sgardner: Agreed, I'm totally with you there. But again, I feel like the webchat helps narrow that gap. And people are often used to a group chat thing, such as in AIM, so it's not entirely foreign.
Feb 24 17:00:47 <apergos> and you are a member of the privileged minority
Feb 24 17:00:50 <jsalsman> when people ask Reference Desk questions on the help desk, they get ignored or told off. When people ask Help Desk questions on the Reference Desk, they get answered, and sometimes with a kind pointer to ask similar questions on the Help Desk instead
Feb 24 17:00:53 <russet> IRC is a mess.
Feb 24 17:00:57 <sgardner> apergos: Yes. I once read a very long essay about why women never go on IRC. Obviously some women do (there are some here), but apparently lots don't.
Feb 24 17:00:59 <aude> Risker: the chat is available as web chat
Feb 24 17:00:59 <geniice> sgardner I don't know much about them I don't speak chinese. They have forums and some kind of points system.
Feb 24 17:01:05 <russet> #wikipedia-en-help have a bunch of the same type of uers.
Feb 24 17:01:05 <apergos> yup
Feb 24 17:01:08 <sgardner> Yes. Chat makes sense :-)
Feb 24 17:02:06 <apergos> (instead of dumping the person into a chat room with 200 people)
Feb 24 17:02:22 <geniice> sgardner so find out what Hudong are up to. They do have 4 million articles. It is possible there is something we could learn from them
Feb 24 17:02:26 <GorillaWarfare> So you're saying the 1-to-1 thing would be helpful? I can see that
Feb 24 17:02:26 <russet> apergos, there are open source things that might work for a base
Feb 24 17:02:52 * russet chats in #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 17:03:08 <Philippe> russet: perhaps it would be a better idea to give context for the links you're dumping? :)
Feb 24 17:03:20 <sgardner> Yes, it's definitely possible geniice. There are definitely features/behaviour we should adopt from all kinds of places. Like Facebook, Yelp.
Feb 24 17:03:24 * dungodung is now known as dungodung|sleep
Feb 24 17:03:37 <bawolff> Its not that hard to put a login form for irc directly in the page. (Wikinews used to have a cgi::irc login right in WN:IRC page. doesn't anymore)
Feb 24 17:03:50 <aude> icons! noooooooooooo!
Feb 24 17:03:53 <Philippe> bawolff: we tested it for use during the fundraiser too.
Feb 24 17:03:55 <geniice> sgardner we are not short of people who know about facebook. http://www.hudong.com/ not so much
Feb 24 17:03:58 <Philippe> Never activted it tho
Feb 24 17:04:00 <russet> apergos, http://qwebirc.org potential base for a one-on-one chat serive
Feb 24 17:04:05 <Theo10011__> you know we were considering a help channel for the fundraiser Philippe.
Feb 24 17:04:09 <apergos> right
Feb 24 17:04:10 <sgardner> One issue for us though is avoiding dark patterns, and avoiding extrinsic rewards, which are demotivating to intrinsically motivated people.
Feb 24 17:04:14 <aude> the huge icons, ugh! small ones tastefully integrated maybe
Feb 24 17:04:16 <russet> Philippe, I could never make that work
Feb 24 17:04:18 <Philippe> Theo10011__: yup, that's what I just said :)
Feb 24 17:04:25 <Philippe> russet: that's cuz we never turned it on :)
Feb 24 17:04:27 <Theo10011__> missed you by a second. :)
Feb 24 17:04:28 <GorillaWarfare> I think one thing we could work on would be to figure out who's capable of helping who
Feb 24 17:04:30 <Theo10011__> sawry.
Feb 24 17:04:32 <sgardner> Someone did a Hudong analysis I think for the strategy project.
Feb 24 17:04:40 <Philippe> Yep....
Feb 24 17:04:41 * Philippe digs
Feb 24 17:04:43 <Eloquence> sgardner: not too deep from what I just found
Feb 24 17:05:01 * jsalsman wishes he knew which trinsic he was more motivated by
Feb 24 17:05:02 <Jamesofur_> we did have a link fairly directly to IRC during the contribution part after the fundraiser. It was used but by a very very small percent of people who clicked on the banner
Feb 24 17:05:05 <Philippe> I think that's the one that Mountain's group was working on.
Feb 24 17:05:06 <apergos> sgardner: we want to allow extrinsic rewards for those who work better with them, and vanish them for folks for whom they are a deterrent
Feb 24 17:05:11 <Philippe> And then some folks from Bridgespan were involved in one too
Feb 24 17:05:17 <apergos> tricky I know but that's what we will want in the end
Feb 24 17:05:22 <sgardner> Depends on the reward. What kind of thing are you thinking about, apergos?
Feb 24 17:05:29 <sgardner> Like, we know money is out. LOLOL.
Feb 24 17:05:31 <apergos> I don't have a specific thing in mind
Feb 24 17:05:45 <apergos> I am saying that we want both groups to be motivated
Feb 24 17:06:01 <sgardner> I think extrinsic rewards that work for us and are authentic in our world include things like tenure support letters, or scholarships to Wikimania.
Feb 24 17:06:14 <Philippe> Warning, incoming terribly formatted link....
Feb 24 17:06:17 <sgardner> But I think that Wikimedians would be offended by clumsy rewards.
Feb 24 17:06:22 <apergos> hmm yes those are two very good ones
Feb 24 17:06:48 <Theo10011__> oh
Feb 24 17:06:54 <sgardner> yeah, and we do do those. There is also CV enhancement: I have noticed more Wikimedians talking about their editing on eg LinkedIn over the past few yrears.
Feb 24 17:06:56 <Jamesofur_> yikes... need better link kthx
Feb 24 17:07:03 <Philippe> lol, yes, James
Feb 24 17:07:05 <sgardner> *years
Feb 24 17:07:11 <Eloquence> Wikimedia Germany has been running a program to fund literature expenses. Other chapters support travel for specific program activities.
Feb 24 17:07:27 <sgardner> I love that literature expenses program.
Feb 24 17:07:30 <Philippe> Me too.
Feb 24 17:07:32 <apergos> I have had a number of people point out (this might be tangential) that while publishin in a journal gets credited on your resume and counts in your academic career etc
Feb 24 17:07:33 <GorillaWarfare> Ooh, I would never thing to put Wikipedia on a CV haha
Feb 24 17:07:34 <sgardner> I think it is so .. apt.
Feb 24 17:07:43 <shimgray> WM Poland ran a similar one, too, IIRC
Feb 24 17:07:44 <Eloquence> there's tons of stuff that's related to editorial work that people would appreciate help with. it's more related to retaining and supporting activity probably than to acquiring new editors.
Feb 24 17:07:46 <apergos> makin significant contribs to WP doesn't "count" anywhere
Feb 24 17:07:51 <jsalsman> I'm resigned to the apparent fact that my fundraiser suggestions just take about year longer than I think they should. 1.5 years ago I was so steamed that Rand refused to test http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jimbo-button.png
Feb 24 17:08:00 <apergos> it might be nice to think about how to change that
Feb 24 17:08:16 <sgardner> How to change what apergos?
Feb 24 17:08:23 * bawolff loves the button
Feb 24 17:08:35 <GorillaWarfare> Making contributions to WP count? How?
Feb 24 17:08:42 <GorillaWarfare> *count on a CV, that is
Feb 24 17:08:44 <LauraHale> Wikimedia Australia helped cover travel expenses for a wiki conference in the country.
Feb 24 17:08:47 <geniice> apergos well it helped me get my current job but I'm in industry
Feb 24 17:08:53 <apergos> that making significant contribs to WP doesn't count in any way, as far as something you have done in your field (if the edits had to do with your area of expertise)
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Feb 24 17:09:00 <jsalsman> well I gotta go see Zack. Anyone got anything good to ask him?
Feb 24 17:09:22 <Philippe> apergos: I had the most fascinating conversation with a university today that's including work on WP in their tenure formula
Feb 24 17:09:22 <geniice> what does he know about Hudong?
Feb 24 17:09:29 <sgardner> The Wikimedia Foundation writes reference letters for people, praising their work on the projects :-)
Feb 24 17:09:33 <apergos> see that's a good first step
Feb 24 17:09:34 <Jamesofur_> apergos: I totally disagree. I had it on my Resume and it alone seemed to get more discussion started and people interested then anything else.
Feb 24 17:09:37 <GorillaWarfare> sgardner: Really? o.O
Feb 24 17:09:39 <apergos> we should be encouraging more things like that
Feb 24 17:09:45 <apergos> ( Philippe )
Feb 24 17:09:53 <sgardner> Absolutely. College application support too.
Feb 24 17:09:55 <Philippe> apergos: I agree. That's why I talked to 'em today.
Feb 24 17:09:55 <GorillaWarfare> I included Wikipedia on my college applications, now that I think of it...
Feb 24 17:10:05 <GorillaWarfare> Whoa, jinx
Feb 24 17:10:07 <apergos> I am reportin what people tell me: and they tell me that they can't put it on their resumes
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Feb 24 17:10:13 <apergos> I am glad it does work for some people
Feb 24 17:10:18 <jsalsman> Last time at PARC Forum I tried to ask Eugene about auctioning search order results and he had no opinion. Hint. Hint. I'll ask Zack what he thinks about Arrington's external affiliate links in comparison
Feb 24 17:10:22 <apergos> it *sohuld* work for a lot more people
Feb 24 17:10:24 <Eloquence> sgardner: more on an "ask and ye shall receive basis" than anything publicly advertised though, right?
Feb 24 17:10:27 * russet is back
Feb 24 17:10:33 <Theo10011__> for college applications, it has to work, right?
Feb 24 17:10:36 <jsalsman> :-)
Feb 24 17:10:39 * jsalsman (4086103d@gateway/web/freenode/ip) has left #wikimedia-office
Feb 24 17:10:41 <sgardner> Wikipedia's reputation is better every year, so increasingly colleges and employers respect editors. They assume they've got good project skills, writing skills, collaboration skills.
Feb 24 17:10:46 <GorillaWarfare> Theo10011: I like to think it did, but there's no way to know
Feb 24 17:10:52 <sgardner> Eloquence: I think I mention it on my userpage, and on LinkedIn.
Feb 24 17:10:54 <russet> Philippe, bit.ly
Feb 24 17:11:03 <sgardner> But yeah, it's mostly on request.
Feb 24 17:11:18 <geniice> anway we have an existing model for rewards in Hudong. Find out what they do
Feb 24 17:11:25 <apergos> I have never looked at your user page or at your linked in profile (maybe for two seconds if I accepted or sent an invite, that's it)
Feb 24 17:11:26 <mindspillage> apergos: I think if you can't figure out how to put it on your resume, you're not spinning it right. :-)
Feb 24 17:11:29 <apergos> do most people look?
Feb 24 17:11:37 <Philippe> OK, i'm going to start drawing this to a close....
Feb 24 17:11:44 <Philippe> Ironholds was going to do some take-away work for us...
Feb 24 17:11:52 <Orderinchaos> I mention my chapter work but not my editing on my resume.
Feb 24 17:11:57 <Orderinchaos> have to head off, best wishes to all
Feb 24 17:11:58 <Philippe> I'd love it if others wanted to start a page somewhere to discuss other ideas.
Feb 24 17:11:59 <apergos> mindspillage: let's help people figure out how
Feb 24 17:12:01 <Eloquence> speaking of free stuff, these meetings would be better with food.
Feb 24 17:12:02 <mindspillage> That's half a joke and half not: interviewers ask me questions about Wikipedia all the time, and not questions about board stuff, questions about all sorts of things.
Feb 24 17:12:08 <Orderinchaos> +1 eloquence :)
Feb 24 17:12:08 <sgardner> Nice to see you Orderinchaos :-)
Feb 24 17:12:13 <Theo10011__> +1 eloquence.
Feb 24 17:12:14 <GorillaWarfare> russet: Are you going to start some sort of live chat discussion still?'
Feb 24 17:12:16 <Orderinchaos> thanks sgardner :)
Feb 24 17:12:20 <apergos> I would take some free food :-D
Feb 24 17:12:21 <mindspillage> apergos: that would be a good idea for a guidance page, indeed.
Feb 24 17:12:24 <sgardner> What is with Erik making jokes today.
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Feb 24 17:12:35 <sgardner> The wimmin, the food :-)
Feb 24 17:12:40 <Eloquence> won't happen again, ma'am.
Feb 24 17:12:44 <sgardner> LOL
Feb 24 17:12:46 <Philippe> I thought we were solidly against "sense of humor" in employees?
Feb 24 17:12:46 <Theo10011__> heh
Feb 24 17:12:47 <apergos> *eyeroll*
Feb 24 17:13:01 <russet> GorillaWarfare, probably not tonight, but I'll put a proposal together and we can have a meeting down the road
Feb 24 17:13:03 <sgardner> Philippe and I will be opening a bottle of wine now Erik, if you want to come upstairs.
Feb 24 17:13:07 <sgardner> I may or may not be kidding.
Feb 24 17:13:12 <geniice> seriously Hudong are the biggest wiki around. You should not be asking me questions about it
Feb 24 17:13:16 <Philippe> russet, would you be so kind as to copy me on that?
Feb 24 17:13:17 <Eloquence> the truth will out, as wikileaks would say.
Feb 24 17:13:19 <apergos> oh fine, have wine once I leave, I see how it goes :-P
Feb 24 17:13:19 <mindspillage> He's already making jokes now, with the wine it might only increase...
Feb 24 17:13:19 <Philippe> I'm interested
Feb 24 17:13:22 <Risker> ssgardner, do you keep him in the dungeon?
Feb 24 17:13:23 <GorillaWarfare> russet: Good, good
Feb 24 17:13:32 <Philippe> Risker, almost the same... third floor.
Feb 24 17:13:32 <sgardner> Thanks geniice. I just thought you knew something and wanted to share it.
Feb 24 17:13:35 <Philippe> The cool kids are on 6
Feb 24 17:13:38 <russet> That's what happens when you hold office hours after work.
Feb 24 17:13:48 <apergos> the cool kids are going to bed actually...
Feb 24 17:13:51 <apergos> night folks
Feb 24 17:13:51 <Philippe> OK, ladies and gentlemen and Risker... shall we call it?
Feb 24 17:13:53 <sgardner> It's noon PT I think. Still working hours.
Feb 24 17:13:59 <Risker> ahem!
Feb 24 17:14:00 <sgardner> And Risker.
Feb 24 17:14:02 <Philippe> Lol
Feb 24 17:14:02 <sgardner> Indeed.
Feb 24 17:14:02 <geniice> sgardner no my point is we need to find out and we've spejnt the last few years not doing so
Feb 24 17:14:22 <sgardner> I hear you geniice.
Feb 24 17:14:22 <Philippe> I'll get a log up, and those of us who don't read this fast can go back through and mutter "I SHOULDA said..."
Feb 24 17:14:38 <Theo10011__> I know I will.
Feb 24 17:14:43 <Jamesofur_> ^
Feb 24 17:14:49 * Jamesofur_ is now known as Jamesofur
Feb 24 17:14:54 <Shirley> Oh, is it over?
Feb 24 17:14:54 <sgardner> K I will run now too. Thanks everyone :-)
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