IRC office hours/Office hours 2011-07-28

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Jul 28 16:57:15 * sgardner has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:00:01 <domas> Haifa next week
Jul 28 17:00:05 <domas> Tel Aviv week afterwards
Jul 28 17:00:09 <domas> Oregon week afterwards
Jul 28 17:00:11 <domas> SF week afterwards
Jul 28 17:00:12 <domas> :)
Jul 28 17:00:16 <tommorris> Wikimania == Woohoo!
Jul 28 17:00:20 <StevenW> Nice domas :)
Jul 28 17:00:22 * preilly (~WMF27@ has joined #wikimedia-office
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Jul 28 17:00:22 * preilly (~WMF27@wikipedia/preilly) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:00:38 <sgardner> Hey Ironholds: I got your note, and James is marking your presentations in my calendar so I can try to attend them,
Jul 28 17:00:40 <sgardner> .
Jul 28 17:00:41 * Snardbafulator ( has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:00:44 <Fluffernutter> ...oh god
Jul 28 17:00:47 <Fluffernutter> Ironholds, what did you do
Jul 28 17:00:49 * mindspillage is in Canada this week. (and probably offline soon for lunch)
Jul 28 17:00:52 <bastique> :)
Jul 28 17:01:00 <sgardner> Last year at Wikimania I think I only saw one or two workshops during the whole conference... I am hoping to see more this year :-)
Jul 28 17:01:04 <sgardner> Cary!
Jul 28 17:01:07 * Tanvir is not sure this sgardner is the real Sue Gardner. :-P
Jul 28 17:01:09 * Fluffernutter is worried enough about the presentation she's going with Ironholds as it is!
Jul 28 17:01:12 >StevenW< Do you know who's in charge of
Jul 28 17:01:12 <StevenW> Hey, so I told the lists that we might talk about Wikimania since it's coming up fast, but I don't know if sgardner has another idea.
Jul 28 17:01:18 <sgardner> Cary, I saw your sermon on YouTube; it was GREAT.
Jul 28 17:01:28 <MaggieDennis> She's the real Sue Gardner. She's sitting across from me, Tanvir. :)
Jul 28 17:01:28 * bastique is home sick at his mother's house from CPE
Jul 28 17:01:29 <domas> tanvir: *facepalm*
Jul 28 17:01:31 <StevenW> If anyone has any questions in particular that you don't want missed, feel free to private message them to me.
Jul 28 17:01:32 <StevenW> :)
Jul 28 17:01:34 <Ironholds> sgardner: mindspillage is doing 3, I'm doing 3, Fluffernutter is doing 2. you have no excuse not to come and see some of the IRC crowd talking to real people incredibly awkwardly :P
Jul 28 17:01:34 <bastique> thanks sgardner ! :)
Jul 28 17:01:37 * jorm has quit (Quit: jorm)
Jul 28 17:01:37 <MaggieDennis> (of course, we could be working in tandem....)
Jul 28 17:01:44 <sgardner> LOL Ironholds :-)
Jul 28 17:01:48 <StevenW> I'm doing three too
Jul 28 17:01:53 <sgardner> And Kat is in Canada. That makes me so happy.
Jul 28 17:01:58 * the_wub ( has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:02:00 <Tanvir> MaggieDennis, she is without her cloak.. :-P
Jul 28 17:02:02 <Ironholds> mindspillage: you hear that?
Jul 28 17:02:07 <Ironholds> you being really far away makes Sue happy
Jul 28 17:02:15 * ChanServ gives voice to sgardner
Jul 28 17:02:16 <Ironholds> keep that in mind next time her salary comes up for review :P
Jul 28 17:02:18 <tommorris> sgardner: that's not a guarantee: we may just go round comedy blocking Jimmy and giggling IRL.
Jul 28 17:02:18 <sgardner> StevenW, I can't remember if we've had an office hours since the annual plan was released. I don't think so.
Jul 28 17:02:20 * Tanvir pushes sgardner to identify her nick with the password. :-D
Jul 28 17:02:20 <MaggieDennis> Tanvir: Me, too! But I left mine at home. :)
Jul 28 17:02:23 <sgardner> So we might want to talk about it.
Jul 28 17:02:23 * Yaron ( has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:02:29 <mindspillage> Ironholds: I'm used to it.
Jul 28 17:02:32 <sgardner> Kat is in my homeland.
Jul 28 17:02:44 <StevenW> No we haven't Sue.
Jul 28 17:02:45 <bastique> I just happened to log into IRC at this very moment. How fortuitous :)
Jul 28 17:02:47 <sgardner> When I go back to Canada, I am always amazed relative to SF how affluent it seems, and how well-dressed everyone is :-)
Jul 28 17:03:11 <StevenW> Heh. Which is funny because SF is supposed to be one of the best dressed cities in the country.
Jul 28 17:03:15 <Tanvir> Oh, it's the time. 23:01 here!
Jul 28 17:03:21 <Theo10011> that doesn't sound very good for SF. :P
Jul 28 17:03:25 <Ironholds> StevenW: it is. your people are just very bad at dressing :P
Jul 28 17:03:29 <Mono> We should have Twitter office hours some time.
Jul 28 17:03:30 <sgardner> StevenW LOLOLOL that is so not true.
Jul 28 17:03:32 * Cthulhu_Rima ( has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:03:47 <sgardner> This is the land of hoodies and flip-flops. Not exactly a sartorial paradise.
Jul 28 17:04:00 <tommorris> It's too hot in SFO to dress properly.
Jul 28 17:04:01 <StevenW> Mono: I'd be happy to start a #wikichat on Twitter if you want sometime.
Jul 28 17:04:16 <ChristineM> too... hot? In SF?
Jul 28 17:04:27 <Ironholds> evidently this office-hours session is going to be "bitching about clothes and the weather"
Jul 28 17:04:33 <Ironholds> are you sure you're not all secretly British?
Jul 28 17:04:34 <Mono> Not today, but in the future...that might be nice for some non-Wikimedia people to learn more about the project
Jul 28 17:04:36 <tommorris> ChristineM: compared to London.
Jul 28 17:04:39 <Cthulhu_Rima> hoodies and flip-flops on the same people?
Jul 28 17:04:49 <Cthulhu_Rima> Is that the new hip-gangsta?
Jul 28 17:04:50 <mindspillage> I enjoy how people dress in SF. It's much less boring than DC. (Which isn't saying much.)
Jul 28 17:04:58 <Cthulhu_Rima> Hipsta?
Jul 28 17:05:12 <Cthulhu_Rima> DC is very boring.
Jul 28 17:05:14 <sgardner> Oh Kat I secretly love how people dress in DC.
Jul 28 17:05:18 <bastique> If you want to bitch about the weather, how about the average 40 degrees C here in the South
Jul 28 17:05:22 <sgardner> (not-so-secretly, I guess)
Jul 28 17:05:28 <Cthulhu_Rima> Metric fail
Jul 28 17:05:29 <bastique> I only own one pair of shorts.
Jul 28 17:05:33 <Cthulhu_Rima> lulbastique
Jul 28 17:05:41 <sgardner> Except I feel sorry for the ladies with their sensible boxy suits.
Jul 28 17:05:48 <sgardner> (Hillary Clinton. Porr Hillary.)
Jul 28 17:05:54 <StevenW> Alrighty. Well did you want to introduce the Annual Plan generally Sgardner? Are folks interested in that/ have questions?
Jul 28 17:05:54 <Tanvir> bastique, did you say 44°C? o.O
Jul 28 17:05:57 <bastique> 40
Jul 28 17:06:00 <bastique> not quite 44
Jul 28 17:06:03 <sgardner> What's the weather in Haifa?
Jul 28 17:06:05 <tommorris> okay, sgardner, question: is there any point in the UK bidding for Wikimania any time soon or is that a pipedream? ;-)
Jul 28 17:06:07 <bastique> and I'm exaggerating. But not by much.
Jul 28 17:06:08 * Snardbafulator doesn't have much reason to feel sorry for Hil
Jul 28 17:06:12 <Theo10011> 30-ish Celsius
Jul 28 17:06:12 <Tanvir> Oh.. still very hot. :-S
Jul 28 17:06:17 <Theo10011> in Haifa
Jul 28 17:06:17 <sgardner> There's a question! Thanks Tom.
Jul 28 17:06:18 <Ironholds> sgardner: hot, with a side order of painfully hot
Jul 28 17:06:24 <Ironholds> it's Israel.
Jul 28 17:06:28 <Tanvir> Here, it's 34°C. :-D
Jul 28 17:06:40 <Tanvir> Oh not.. that's not something enjoyable. :-S
Jul 28 17:06:41 <sgardner> I think the UK could definitely bid, why not? Someone remind me what happened with the last bid from the UK.
Jul 28 17:06:46 <Ironholds> Israel: come for the beauty, stay because you've died of dehydration.
Jul 28 17:06:46 <sgardner> Oxford, right?
Jul 28 17:06:48 * Seddon hides
Jul 28 17:06:55 <sgardner> Joseph!
Jul 28 17:06:57 * Ironholds hopes the UK does not bid
Jul 28 17:06:59 <tommorris> sgardner: they back in 2010. but it's being discussed for 2013/2014
Jul 28 17:07:02 <bastique> it just wound up being too expensive AFAIR
Jul 28 17:07:07 <StevenW> Seddon. We miss you already. :)
Jul 28 17:07:09 <bastique> tommorris, of course the UK should bid
Jul 28 17:07:11 <bastique> everyone should bid
Jul 28 17:07:16 <Ironholds> StevenW: then you need to learn to aim better :P
Jul 28 17:07:17 <Cthulhu_Rima> Right now, it is only 80 degrees proper measuring unit
Jul 28 17:07:18 <bastique> the more bids the better.
Jul 28 17:07:25 * Abbasjnr (3e186ff5@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:07:32 <sgardner> bastique: was there an issue with the venue? Am I right in remembering it was kind of dispersed, with lots of travel among different locations?
Jul 28 17:07:34 <bastique> Abbas!
Jul 28 17:07:42 <Ironholds> sgardner: plus, expense
Jul 28 17:07:43 <Abbasjnr> Hi Cary!
Jul 28 17:07:46 <Abbasjnr> Hi All
Jul 28 17:07:48 <sgardner> Why expensive?
Jul 28 17:07:50 <Mono> sgardner, you have to love American politics and clothing - //
Jul 28 17:07:54 <sgardner> Hey Abbas :-)
Jul 28 17:07:56 <Ironholds> London and Oxford are both relatively expensive cities
Jul 28 17:07:58 <bastique> Everything in the UK is expensive.
Jul 28 17:07:59 <Tanvir> Hi Abbas!
Jul 28 17:08:02 <bastique> well, London & UK
Jul 28 17:08:04 <tommorris> Ironholds: yeah, but Birmingham or somewhere
Jul 28 17:08:08 <bastique> I still think Manchester can do a good shot.
Jul 28 17:08:15 <Ironholds> tommorris: in that case we face a slightly larger issue
Jul 28 17:08:16 <bastique> Or Dublin
Jul 28 17:08:16 <Seddon> I dont think oxford was an expensive bit, just wasnt a watertight bid
Jul 28 17:08:20 <Ironholds> i.e. "Birmingham is an utter hole"
Jul 28 17:08:22 <Cthulhu_Rima> Anyway, is Bastique taking back his old job at the WMF? Can we now make him do all the work again?!?!
Jul 28 17:08:23 <bastique> and Dublin
Jul 28 17:08:25 * abartov (~abartov@wikimedia/Ijon) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:08:25 <Ironholds> Manchester would be nice.
Jul 28 17:08:26 <sgardner> Mono: that video is absurd :-)
Jul 28 17:08:26 * Odisha1 has quit ()
Jul 28 17:08:32 <bastique> Cthulhu_Rima, I have a new life, son
Jul 28 17:08:33 <StevenW> Hi Asaf.
Jul 28 17:08:35 <Mono> Hehe.
Jul 28 17:08:38 * abartov waves
Jul 28 17:08:43 <Cthulhu_Rima> The UK is boring. We should have Wikimania Afghanistan.
Jul 28 17:08:54 <Ironholds> Cthulhu_Rima: agreed!
Jul 28 17:08:55 * JeanFred (~chatzilla@Wikimedia/JeanFred) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:08:55 <Tanvir> Or Wikimedia Bangladesh. :-)
Jul 28 17:08:56 <bastique> What's that Welsh city?
Jul 28 17:08:58 <Ironholds> I hear the fireworks there are INCREDIBLE
Jul 28 17:09:00 <Theo10011> Hiya abartov and Abbasjnr
Jul 28 17:09:02 <Ironholds> bastique: Cardiff
Jul 28 17:09:05 <bastique> that's the one
Jul 28 17:09:08 <Ironholds> that's the only welsh city :P
Jul 28 17:09:08 <sgardner> Where was the UK fundraising summit?
Jul 28 17:09:09 * Avic (Avicennasi@wikipedia/Avicennasis) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:09:14 <bastique> Wikimania Cardiff 2013
Jul 28 17:09:16 <sgardner> People liked that venue, I remember them talking about it.
Jul 28 17:09:16 <Seddon> sgardner, bristol
Jul 28 17:09:18 <StevenW> Cthulhu_Rima: They have Wikipedia in Afghanistan, partially thanks to SJ. :)
Jul 28 17:09:24 <Mono> via @jimmy_wales!/jimmy_wales/status/96579418721484800a
Jul 28 17:09:25 <sgardner> Yeah, Bristol. People liked Bristol :-)
Jul 28 17:09:42 <Ironholds> sgardner: bristol is also a bit of a bugger to get to
Jul 28 17:09:46 <bastique> I hear Kazakhstan is seriously considering a chapter. Maybe have one there.
Jul 28 17:09:48 <Ironholds> but the trustees love it
Jul 28 17:09:55 <Seddon> Ironholds, singular
Jul 28 17:10:02 <Seddon> a trustee loves it
Jul 28 17:10:05 <Ironholds> Seddon: of course
Jul 28 17:10:07 <abartov> yes, there's a strong group forming in Kazakhstan.
Jul 28 17:10:08 <tommorris> sgardner: another question, how is the development going on the new mobile version?
Jul 28 17:10:08 <Abbasjnr> hi Theo
Jul 28 17:10:09 <Ironholds> purely out of aesthetic choice
Jul 28 17:10:12 * Tanvir hopes to arrange the Wikimania in Cox's Bazar, Bangladesh. It has the world's largest sea beach. 121 kilometers without a break. :-D
Jul 28 17:10:14 <Ironholds> and not because he lives there :P
Jul 28 17:10:20 <bastique> tommorris, I think the answer was yes, the UK should keep up its efforts.
Jul 28 17:10:25 <sgardner> Is anybody here from Tech who can talk about the new mobile version?
Jul 28 17:10:28 <Mono> Ah mobile.
Jul 28 17:10:36 <sgardner> Erik told me Monday that's it's rolling out this week, I think.
Jul 28 17:10:43 * Srikeit has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
Jul 28 17:10:51 <sgardner> But I'm not 100% sure. I know it's imminent. Patrick has been making really good progress.
Jul 28 17:10:52 * Maggie_ (d82682a4@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:11:05 * arp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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Jul 28 17:11:06 <StevenW> Link to the portal with more info: Mobile_Projects
Jul 28 17:11:07 * Catrin_WMDE has quit ()
Jul 28 17:11:20 * Hmundol has quit (Quit: Hmundol)
Jul 28 17:11:22 <Maggie_> Kicked out! Back with new name.
Jul 28 17:11:27 <Mono> What's new?
Jul 28 17:11:34 <bastique> Ah, StevenW, always helpful.
Jul 28 17:11:47 <StevenW> I know they've been testing lots of different mobile browsers to see if the site actually redirects to the mobile gateway etc.
Jul 28 17:11:54 <Cthulhu_Rima> Anyway, when is Wikimania DC?
Jul 28 17:11:58 <Mono> Any new features?
Jul 28 17:12:00 * tommorris has been meaning to get a bunch of old browsers out and test them
Jul 28 17:12:04 <Theo10011> Maggie_: you're using webchat that's why. :P
Jul 28 17:12:10 <Mono> Cthulhu_Rima, next year :p
Jul 28 17:12:11 <StevenW> If you have a mobile browser and don't get sent to the mobile version, you should let the tech list or someone on-wiki know
Jul 28 17:12:15 * Pharos ( has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:12:16 <Cthulhu_Rima> Mono, I mean month
Jul 28 17:12:17 <sgardner> I think none of the engineers are here who could talk about it, because they're at OSCON in Portland.
Jul 28 17:12:22 <StevenW> Yep
Jul 28 17:12:24 <abartov> Wikimania 2011 will be shamelessly exploited to do some mass-testing of the mobile site with weird-and-wonderful devices from around the world.
Jul 28 17:12:28 <Theo10011> Pharos�!!!!
Jul 28 17:12:28 <Mono> July, I think.
Jul 28 17:12:31 <Mono> :)
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Jul 28 17:12:36 <StevenW> Good to hear abartov
Jul 28 17:12:37 <sgardner> But at this point, my understanding is that it rolls out with no new features. The features are the next step.
Jul 28 17:12:38 <Cthulhu_Rima> July will be hot.
Jul 28 17:12:46 -NickServ- Mono[Away]!u1187@gateway/web/ has just authenticated as you (Mono)
Jul 28 17:12:51 <Pharos> hi theo!
Jul 28 17:12:54 <Cthulhu_Rima> I can give tours if anyone wants to learn about the Maryland state government.
Jul 28 17:12:58 * Mono[Away] (u1187@wikimedia/mono) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:13:00 * saper (saper@wikipedia/saper) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:13:08 <StevenW> Yes. The point is just to rearchitect the backend so that there's a clean transition from the previous version
Jul 28 17:13:15 <StevenW> Is my understanding anyway
Jul 28 17:13:15 <Cthulhu_Rima> Annapolis is far more relaxing than DC will be.
Jul 28 17:13:16 <sgardner> Does anyone want to talk about the 2011-12 plan? We don't have to, but I'd be happy to, if anyone's got questions, issues, wants to discuss anything.
Jul 28 17:13:19 <Slytherin> Adding a 'history' and 'talk' link like in the regular version to the mobile version would be nice.
Jul 28 17:13:25 <sgardner> StevenW: yes, exactly.
Jul 28 17:13:48 <bastique> hi Pharos!
Jul 28 17:13:49 <StevenW> Link to the FAQ and PDF of the plan: wmf:Financial_reports
Jul 28 17:13:49 <Cthulhu_Rima> sgardner - I think the only ones who care about specific WMF plans outside of the WMF are trolling WR as we speak. :)
Jul 28 17:13:55 <Mono> sgardner, I found it to be rather vague in terms of actual projects, but the numbers looked OK
Jul 28 17:13:58 <sgardner> Maggie is here in the office too. If people want to talk about that :-)
Jul 28 17:14:01 <Mono> hehe
Jul 28 17:14:02 <Maggie_> Cthulu_Rima: specifically, it's July 12-15
Jul 28 17:14:15 <Cthulhu_Rima> Thanks Maggie
Jul 28 17:14:28 <sgardner> Cthulhu-Rima: I don't read WR, so I never have any idea what's going on there.
Jul 28 17:14:34 <Theo10011> sgardner: I have one, the new plan is a 24% increase YoY, is this going to be trend going forward?
Jul 28 17:14:44 * diegogrez|clone (diegogrez@wikimedia/Diego-Grez) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:14:47 <Cthulhu_Rima> I will be able to take people through the Maryland statehouse during that time if anyone wants to see where the First Continental Congress met.
Jul 28 17:14:53 <Theo10011> the annual increase seems rather steep and unsustainable.
Jul 28 17:15:01 <Tanvir> Theo10011, what is YoY?
Jul 28 17:15:03 <sgardner> Theo10011, there're five-year spending projections in the strategy document.
Jul 28 17:15:12 <sgardner> Maybe StevenW can give us a link, if he has it handy.
Jul 28 17:15:13 <Theo10011> Year on Year Tanvir.
Jul 28 17:15:18 <Tanvir> Ah, okay. :-)
Jul 28 17:15:24 <Theo10011> sgardner: I have it. :)
Jul 28 17:15:38 <Maggie_> Cthulu_Rima: That sounds like it could be really interesting. :) You'll have to make sure that people are aware as the date draws closer.
Jul 28 17:15:40 <sgardner> But yes, we're expecting pretty significant annual growth for the immediate future (next three or four years at least).
Jul 28 17:15:51 <StevenW> wmf:Wikimedia_Movement_Strategic_Plan_Summary
Jul 28 17:16:00 <StevenW> There you go. :)
Jul 28 17:16:04 <sgardner> It gets increasingly hazy as you project further out, because of course we'll adjust and evolve the planning as we go. As we see what's working, what isn't, etc.
Jul 28 17:16:22 <Theo10011> Thanks Steven, I put it on the main-page of strategy wiki, and worked on that plan BTW. ;)
Jul 28 17:16:29 <sgardner> Theo10011, sustainability isn't really an issue.
Jul 28 17:16:38 <tommorris> okay, sgardner: the WMF has been growing a fairly large amount since it started. at what point do you think growth (in amount of revenue, employees etc.) will level out?
Jul 28 17:16:50 <Cthulhu_Rima> Maggie - I'm just a politician, not a tour guide, so I can't take more than a few. :P
Jul 28 17:16:51 <sgardner> We are very sustainable, because the many-small-donors model is inherently stable. Probably the most stable possible model for a non-profit.
Jul 28 17:16:52 <srikanthlogic> merchandise is coming in 2011-12 ?
Jul 28 17:16:52 <saper> Theo10011: strategy:Wikimedia_Movement_Strategic_Plan_Summary/The_Resources_We'll_Need <--
Jul 28 17:17:00 <Theo10011> sgardner I'm wondering if the current model of small donations would sustain the plan going forward.
Jul 28 17:17:05 <StevenW> Yes, srikanthlogic.
Jul 28 17:17:11 * VVCrishna (b4943382@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:17:11 * Ironholds (~bob@wikipedia/Ironholds) has left #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:17:17 <sgardner> But re steep: we'll see. If it turns out we can't grow revenues that fast, then obviously we'll curtail spending to stay in line with revenues.
Jul 28 17:17:23 <StevenW> We wanted it earlier but turns out it talks a lot of overhead and work to set up a merchandise program. :)
Jul 28 17:17:31 <Maggie_> Cthulhu_Rima: Maybe you can send out an invite list, then. :) Or make it first-come/first-serve. :)
Jul 28 17:17:42 <sgardner> tommorris: that's a good question, and honestly we don't know the answer right now.
Jul 28 17:17:44 <Cthulhu_Rima> sgardner - you could downsize your fundraising department. I heard there are too many Welshmen as is. :P
Jul 28 17:18:00 <Theo10011> saper: thank you, look at the history tab. I've read the plan several times over. ;)
Jul 28 17:18:04 <tommorris> sgardner: do you ever think the reader is going to wonder why it costmore to run this year athan last year and will wonder why potentially in five years it costs $50m to run Wikimedia rather than $20m
Jul 28 17:18:04 <srikanthlogic> StevenW: cool.. would it be through chapters or just like any online store ?
Jul 28 17:18:16 <sgardner> I wouldn't be surprised if we started to flatten out at about 150 staff. But really that is just a guess and our thinking about that will adjust as we go.
Jul 28 17:18:22 <tommorris> sgardner: I'm not trolling on that, it's a serious q.
Jul 28 17:18:34 <sgardner> I think I've said before: I don't ever see the Foundation being like Google or Facebook etc., with thousands of staff.
Jul 28 17:18:40 <StevenW> srikanthlogic: The WMF is part is an online store. I know Barry has been talking about merch with chapters but I don't know the details or progress.
Jul 28 17:18:45 <saper> Theo10011: sorry, I just had a link handy, didn't want to imply anything :)
Jul 28 17:18:59 <sgardner> tommorris: I know you're not trolling :-) Hang on and I'll answer :-)
Jul 28 17:19:02 <Cthulhu_Rima> sgarden - You need to establish WikiAps like WikiVille or such to be like Facebook. :)
Jul 28 17:19:48 <sgardner> tommorris: I used to wonder about that -- used to wonder how we would justify growth to donors. Why would it be 1m in the early days of the Foundation , and 30m five years later.
Jul 28 17:19:55 <sgardner> But honestly, we do not get those questions from donors.
Jul 28 17:20:16 <StevenW> For the staffing part of the plan, there's an FAQ: wmf:2011-2012_Annual_Plan_Questions_and_Answers#Staffing
Jul 28 17:20:21 <StevenW> If anyone's interested
Jul 28 17:20:23 <sgardner> Donors like Wikipedia, and from what they say (and what they do) I think we can conclude that they're happy it exists, and happy to support it.
Jul 28 17:20:45 <sgardner> We watch for signs of fatigue, disaffection, etc., and they don't seem to be too much in evidence yet.
Jul 28 17:21:12 * jvandavier (~joshvanda@ has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:21:13 <saper> only a bit among editors :)
Jul 28 17:21:15 <Cthulhu_Rima> Well, once my TFA comes up in 4 and a half hours, we should get more donors. :P
Jul 28 17:21:24 <ChristineM> to be honest, coming from the ranks of readers as i do, i can tell you that most of us have no idea that 1) there's an actual organization behind this thing, 2) how much that organization does other than keep lights on. When i joined the staff, i was *very* surprised at how much goes on behind the scenes
Jul 28 17:21:32 <Kingpin13> I think it's more the editors who are upset, rather than the doners, sgardner.
Jul 28 17:21:33 <sgardner> Last year's fundraiser, we saw some Jimmy banner fatigue, but 1) it was mostly pretty jokey and affectionate, and 2) I think it was tied more to the sameness of those banners, than to resistance to fundraising in general.
Jul 28 17:21:39 <sgardner> [reading, catching up now]
Jul 28 17:21:50 <Maggie_> ChristineM: That certainly matches my experience.
Jul 28 17:22:04 <Cthulhu_Rima> sgardner - is there any way we can get Sage's wife to produce a new baby in time for next year's banners? :)
Jul 28 17:22:08 * fschulenburg is now known as fschulenburg|awa
Jul 28 17:22:15 <Mono> sgardner, do you think it's an issue that my AdBlock hides the banners?
Jul 28 17:22:18 <ragesoss> funny you mention that...
Jul 28 17:22:26 <ChristineM> ORLY?
Jul 28 17:22:28 <Cthulhu_Rima> omg sage?!?!
Jul 28 17:22:29 <Theo10011> lol Cthulhu_Rima
Jul 28 17:22:37 <Theo10011> wha wha?
Jul 28 17:22:42 <Maggie_> Cthulhu_Rima: TFA?
Jul 28 17:22:50 <Fluffernutter> zomg new baby!
Jul 28 17:23:00 <Cthulhu_Rima> Maggie - Christopher Smart's asylum conflict, the 11th article of mine to be a TFA
Jul 28 17:23:02 <ChristineM> Sage, do you have an announcement of our community growing by +1??
Jul 28 17:23:03 <Theo10011> Congrats!!!!!!!!!

Jul 28 17:23:05 <ragesoss>

Jul 28 17:23:09 <sgardner> ChristineM: I think that's right, and I think that most readers (not all, but most) actually don't want to do tons of scrutiny and assessment of the budget and so forth. I think they are just giving (10 dollars, 50 dollars, whatever) because they like it. And maybe also because they ideologically are opposed to advertising, and are willing to pony up a little in exchange for not having to see ads.
Jul 28 17:23:13 <StevenW> Of course. On Commons.
Jul 28 17:23:14 <Mono> :)
Jul 28 17:23:16 <ChristineM> Sage! Congrats!
Jul 28 17:23:45 <Cthulhu_Rima> Anyway, Wikipedians with babies helps combat the stereotype that we are all sexless cave troll nerds who are unable to tolerate the presence of society.
Jul 28 17:23:49 <mindspillage> congratulations Sage!
Jul 28 17:23:49 <Cthulhu_Rima> :)
Jul 28 17:24:02 <StevenW> Hey, on the topic of donor fatigue, fundraising, the Jimmy banners etc.
Jul 28 17:24:04 <Mono> It's simply people like Gregory K*hs, sgardner
Jul 28 17:24:05 <Maggie_> Ah, thanks Cthulhu. And congratulations. :)
Jul 28 17:24:06 <StevenW> For those going to Wikimania
Jul 28 17:24:08 <tommorris> ragesoss: when the little tyke is born, you gotta get them to blow a raspberry and put it on Commons
Jul 28 17:24:08 <StevenW> Did you see
Jul 28 17:24:14 <sgardner> Kingpin13: I think that's correct too. We were pretty proud of last year's campaign, because it was the first year (in my memory) where we felt like there wasn't massive rage and pushback from editors. Some people didn't love the campaign, but there was less outcry than in previous years.
Jul 28 17:24:26 <StevenW> Megan Hernandez's note on the lists about collecting stories from Wikimedians?
Jul 28 17:24:39 <sgardner> I think because the campaign messaging was smarter and more clueful, and because there were some clumsy things we did in previous years, that we didn't do last year.
Jul 28 17:24:49 <sgardner> Like, uh, the marquee stuff from 2007.
Jul 28 17:24:50 <tommorris> what's the humour thing gonna be about?
Jul 28 17:25:00 <sgardner> That was my fault (the marquee). LOL.
Jul 28 17:25:08 <tommorris> Jimmy Wales banner saying like "Hey, give money to the Foundation and I'll stop staring at you"
Jul 28 17:25:09 <Mono> sgardner, hmm?
Jul 28 17:25:24 <sgardner> Mono, ?
Jul 28 17:25:26 <StevenW> I don't think everyone remembers the marquee Sue.
Jul 28 17:25:39 <sgardner> I know. I say it because I think Brion may be here somewhere, and he remembers :-)
Jul 28 17:25:41 <sgardner> Cary remembers.
Jul 28 17:25:42 <sgardner> LOL.
Jul 28 17:25:48 <Mono> I don't remember that )
Jul 28 17:25:54 <brion> who wha? :)
Jul 28 17:25:56 <bastique> the blinking marquee?
Jul 28 17:25:59 <brion> OMG THE MARQUEEEEEE
Jul 28 17:26:00 <sgardner> Suffice to say, it was my bad decision, and boy did I pay for it.
Jul 28 17:26:02 <bastique> Let me get Sandra online
Jul 28 17:26:03 <Cthulhu_Rima> sgardner - do we have an Endowment? I think that would be more important to non-WMF people than a budget or plan.
Jul 28 17:26:03 <sgardner> Well deserved.
Jul 28 17:26:05 <sgardner> LOLOLOL
Jul 28 17:26:08 <brion> yeah that was…. a fun time for all
Jul 28 17:26:15 <sgardner> The devil made you do it, Brion :-)
Jul 28 17:26:21 <sgardner> early days... :-)
Jul 28 17:26:26 <mindspillage> awww, but now we can reminisce about it!
Jul 28 17:26:28 <brion> hey, we asked on meta and nobody told us no ;)
Jul 28 17:26:34 <brion> though i did recommend against ;)
Jul 28 17:26:37 <sgardner> Sorry, I will answer Cthulhu_Rima now :-)
Jul 28 17:26:37 <Abbasjnr> Question: why is it that the Chapters Meeting is usually held in berlin?
Jul 28 17:26:38 <Mono> ChristineM, I'll be sending you that email in the coming days, but right now I am swamped :)
Jul 28 17:26:38 <ChristineM> Now is the time we can look back at it and laugh.
Jul 28 17:26:39 <ChristineM> right?
Jul 28 17:26:44 <sgardner> Yes :-)
Jul 28 17:26:57 <bastique> you did
Jul 28 17:26:58 <bastique> I did
Jul 28 17:27:04 <brion> hey i laughed at it then!
Jul 28 17:27:04 <tommorris> that reminds me, you seen this -
Jul 28 17:27:10 <bastique> We all laughed at it then.
Jul 28 17:27:15 * Beria (~Beria@wikipedia/Beria) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:27:24 <brion> do the eyes follow your finger?
Jul 28 17:27:28 <bastique> nice
Jul 28 17:27:36 <sgardner> As I recall, poor Erik may have paid even more than me, because he actually had to clean it all up and calm everyone down. As I recall, I left for DC that morning, and missed the whole storm. Yay, me :-)
Jul 28 17:27:38 <Theo10011> Abbasjnr: I think the german chapter finances it and they are based out of Berlin.
Jul 28 17:27:39 <sgardner> But moving on.....
Jul 28 17:27:42 <Cthulhu_Rima> Those eyes are creepy because they look so glossy.
Jul 28 17:27:52 <StevenW> Abbasjnr: what Theo said.
Jul 28 17:27:53 <sgardner> Cthulu_Rima, no, we don't have an endowment.
Jul 28 17:28:06 <Theo10011> Hello Beria
Jul 28 17:28:10 <Cthulhu_Rima> sgardner - any plans to start putting some money aside every year into long term investments?
Jul 28 17:28:10 <sgardner> I can talk a little about why if folks want. I know that lots of Wikimedians would like to have an endowment.
Jul 28 17:28:23 <StevenW> I think that's a good topic.
Jul 28 17:28:27 <sgardner> Basically, at this point we are still building operating reserves.
Jul 28 17:28:43 <Beria> Boa tarde Theo10011 :)
Jul 28 17:28:43 <Cthulhu_Rima> Is there a legal difference between the two?
Jul 28 17:28:54 <sgardner> Our low point financially each year is October, just before the annual campaign starts. And our high point is obviously January.
Jul 28 17:29:17 <bastique> My family church has a huge endowment. And it's just sitting there, while the membership lags.
Jul 28 17:29:21 <sgardner> This year, we'll have about 5.5 months of spending in the operating reserve as we head into the fundraiser.
Jul 28 17:29:30 <Pharos> (it's not so much that the german chapter finances it, it's more that they have more spare organizational capacity)
Jul 28 17:29:50 <sgardner> By most non-profit standards, that's pretty good. About a third of non-profits have essentially zero reserves, and I think another third have about three months' of reserves.
Jul 28 17:29:52 <Theo10011> Pharos is that a euphemism? ;)
Jul 28 17:29:54 <Mono> We'll need a Google+ page in time for the fundraiser.
Jul 28 17:30:09 <sgardner> But it's very difficult to compare among non-profits, because there is a big difference between, say, MOMA and a food bank.
Jul 28 17:30:10 <Beria> talking about WMF money - and i'm sorry if someone mentioned that before i come here - Why WMF transfer all money from Europe to USA, and then back to Europe to pay the people who leave here? That make us lose lots of money in exchange and taxes.
Jul 28 17:30:16 <Cthulhu_Rima> How many months of capital reserves does the IRS allow the WMF to hold?
Jul 28 17:30:34 <bastique> Beria, good question.
Jul 28 17:30:42 <Pharos> not entirely, it refers to the number of staff, for example, who were instrumental in saving all from that nastry volcano
Jul 28 17:30:45 <tommorris> sgardner: has anyone thought about having a year-round fundraiser: just randomly showing fundraising banners to visitors a certain percentage of visitors? that might be a way to avoid the problems with "jimmy fatigue" etc.
Jul 28 17:30:52 <sgardner> The non-profits that typically have very big reserves or endowments are normally universities, hospitals and large arts and culture institutions.
Jul 28 17:31:00 <sgardner> Because they own lots of property.
Jul 28 17:31:11 <Cthulhu_Rima> Pharos, I remember saving you from a nasty volcano that would have came from some bad food.
Jul 28 17:31:13 <sgardner> So.,
Jul 28 17:31:23 <Abbasjnr> I think Lodewijk asked the same question as beria sometimes back, and I don't think we got a response from the Foundation
Jul 28 17:31:23 <Theo10011> tommorris it has been discussed before I think.
Jul 28 17:31:40 <StevenW> I think that would drive down the effectiveness of the banners big time Tom. Part of what makes the campaign work is the urgency and that it only comes once a year. Spreading it out might weaken it quite a bit and cause more banner blindess.
Jul 28 17:32:03 * kaldari (~rkaldari@ has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:32:08 <tommorris> ah okay
Jul 28 17:32:11 <sgardner> Our priority right now is growth: there is lots of work to do, and we need staff to do it. We need to ramp up our activity in the mobile space, we need to continue stabilizing the site and creating back-ups and so forth, and we need to be developing features aimed at editor retention. And we need to be doing work in the Global South.
Jul 28 17:32:14 <sgardner> So that's our top priority.
Jul 28 17:32:54 <tommorris> Beria's question +1
Jul 28 17:32:54 <sgardner> Funding growth.
Jul 28 17:32:54 <sgardner> Our second financial priority is growing the reserve.
Jul 28 17:32:54 <Theo10011> +2 to Beria's question
Jul 28 17:33:02 <sgardner> We want to aim to get it to about a year of funding at the low point of the cycle.. but it will take several years to build it to that point.
Jul 28 17:33:05 <sgardner> particularly because spending is increasing.
Jul 28 17:33:06 <Maggie_> Beria's question is next, I think. :)
Jul 28 17:32:40 <sgardner> I will get to Beria, bear with me :-)
Jul 28 17:32:42 <Mono> Goodness.
Jul 28 17:32:54 <Beria> oh god... so many pings :D
Jul 28 17:33:36 <Mono> Just because I mention Google+ doesn't mean everyone has to +1 each other.
Jul 28 17:33:37 <sgardner> And then we will be able to focus on an endowment.
Jul 28 17:33:46 <sgardner> Beria, I'm reading your question now.
Jul 28 17:33:51 <Beria> ok :)
Jul 28 17:33:58 <Theo10011> hey you're used to them Beria. ;)
Jul 28 17:34:16 <sgardner> Beria, what's the 'transfer back to Europe'?
Jul 28 17:34:26 <sgardner> Do you mean, via the grantmaking program and so forth?
Jul 28 17:34:34 <Beria> yes
Jul 28 17:34:41 <sgardner> I am really happy to talk about this issue. The board will be talking about it in Haifa too.
Jul 28 17:34:43 <Beria> and to pay the fellows who live in Europe
Jul 28 17:34:49 <sgardner> So yeah, let me take a crack at this.
Jul 28 17:34:53 <Beria> and to grant European chapters :P
Jul 28 17:34:54 <tommorris> yep, why not keep a proportion of the cash in EUR or GBP and not pay exchange fees etc.
Jul 28 17:35:04 <sgardner> (StevenW you might want to post my letter to Movement Roles, if you've got that link handy.)
Jul 28 17:35:08 <sgardner> so yes.
Jul 28 17:35:12 <Beria> is not "cheaper" pay they with the Euros we receive in Fundraising
Jul 28 17:35:19 * StevenW will grab it
Jul 28 17:35:23 <sgardner> To start, our fundraising practices are actually pretty strange, and non-ideal.
Jul 28 17:35:26 <tommorris> also, after about next week, USD may not be the currency to hold on to. ;-)
Jul 28 17:35:32 * effeietsanders (~chatzilla@wikimedia/effeietsanders) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:35:34 <brion> hehe
Jul 28 17:35:41 <Beria> lol
Jul 28 17:35:46 <Theo10011> Movement_roles_project/Feedback/Sue_Gardner
Jul 28 17:35:52 <bastique> Canadian dollars is where it's at.
Jul 28 17:35:58 <mindspillage> <troll> bitcoin! </troll>
Jul 28 17:36:00 <Theo10011> Gold!!!!
Jul 28 17:36:02 <Cthulhu_Rima> The coins or the bills?
Jul 28 17:36:05 <sgardner> Funds are collected by the Wikimedia Foundation acting as a payment processor, and some chapters (12, last year) acting as payment processors.
Jul 28 17:36:08 <Mono> tommorris, //
Jul 28 17:36:11 <StevenW> Movement_roles_project/Feedback/Sue_Gardner
Jul 28 17:36:17 <Maggie_> Thanks, Theo10011. :)
Jul 28 17:36:18 <StevenW> The link Sue was talking about
Jul 28 17:36:21 <Theo10011> too slow StevenW. ;)
Jul 28 17:36:25 <StevenW> :)
Jul 28 17:36:25 <Theo10011> np Maggie_
Jul 28 17:36:41 <Theo10011> hiya effe
Jul 28 17:36:46 <effeietsanders> hiya
Jul 28 17:36:50 <Beria> eff *
Jul 28 17:36:51 <sgardner> There are lots of problems with that as a starting point. One of the major ones is that local laws often impede the free flow of funding internationally, throughout the movement.
Jul 28 17:37:04 <Beria> yes :P
Jul 28 17:37:08 <Seddon> UK, FR, DE to name a few
Jul 28 17:37:09 <Theo10011> I refuse to change to eff, he'll always be effe to me.
Jul 28 17:37:10 <sgardner> Which requires lots of lawyers and various specialists to help us all figure out how to transfer the cash.
Jul 28 17:37:26 <Beria> but we can always transfer in the European Union without that much problem :P ;)
Jul 28 17:37:33 <Beria> in general
Jul 28 17:37:43 <Beria> dunno what happens when we deal with millions ;)
Jul 28 17:37:54 <sgardner> So for example, in the 2010 campaign, the chapters needed to reserve as much as 10% of funds raised in their geography, to cover all the costs associated with money transfers.
Jul 28 17:38:04 <sgardner> That is a lot of money lost to the movement, just in the friction of transfer.
Jul 28 17:38:26 <effeietsanders> sgardner: I thought that was 10% also covering all fundraiser costs
Jul 28 17:38:27 <sgardner> And yeah, Beria, I think you're right that there is less friction in moving money around inside Europe.
Jul 28 17:38:29 <effeietsanders> not just transfer
Jul 28 17:38:45 <Beria> and WMF has a bank account in France
Jul 28 17:38:49 <sgardner> (effe: yeah, I think you're correct.)
Jul 28 17:38:54 <Beria> i would say to transfer all to there
Jul 28 17:38:59 <StevenW> We do? I did not know this LO>
Jul 28 17:39:07 <Beria> and then made all grants come from there
Jul 28 17:39:10 <effeietsanders> StevenW: you better have, people donate money there :)
Jul 28 17:39:14 <sgardner> But I think that the movement does not want money that's donated in Europe to stay inside Europe, right?
Jul 28 17:39:16 <effeietsanders> citibank account
Jul 28 17:39:23 <Beria> no :)
Jul 28 17:39:28 <Theo10011> heh Beria knows. ;)
Jul 28 17:39:30 <Beria> but a bit would be smart :)
Jul 28 17:39:39 <sgardner> Do you guys know that 96.3% of money donated to the Wikimedia movement comes in from Global North countries?
Jul 28 17:39:56 <Beria> because so many grants come to here as well :P
Jul 28 17:40:04 <sgardner> So in my view, the main principle that should guide our fundraising activities, is the notion that we need to enable that money to flow freely around the world.
Jul 28 17:40:04 <tommorris> sgardner: no, the idea is that for a small proportion of money that's donated in Europe, rather than move it to the US and then move it back to pay employees and other stuff, you could just keep some reserves in EUR and/or GBP etc.
Jul 28 17:40:39 <Seddon> effeistsanders, it shouldnt cover things like auditting or anything
Jul 28 17:40:44 <Cthulhu_Rima> We could just have a WMF Europe as a side company, and give those annoying European groups their own servers and such. :P
Jul 28 17:40:49 <Beria> so, if WMNL request a 100K € grant for somenthing.... if we need to bring the money from US we will lose 1K € in exchange
Jul 28 17:40:51 <Beria> or more
Jul 28 17:40:51 * bastique is now known as {b|food}
Jul 28 17:40:52 <Seddon> these are costs the chapter would incur whether or ot they fundraiseed
Jul 28 17:41:01 <effeietsanders> Seddon: that was the original idea - not sure if it changed. But that is another discussion.
Jul 28 17:41:02 <sgardner> Money that is donated to the Wikimedia Foundation seems to more easily travel.
Jul 28 17:41:03 <Beria> if the money is in France, there no exchange :)
Jul 28 17:41:07 <brion> there is some sense to leaving at least a chunk of euro cash in euros -- especially since we do have euro expenses
Jul 28 17:41:17 <VVCrishna> suggestion: estimate the european costs budget every quarter, and reserve that many funds in the france account in euro, and deal with the rest as normal
Jul 28 17:41:18 <sgardner> To most countries -- not to India. It is very difficult to transfer money from anywhere outside India, into India.
Jul 28 17:41:25 <StevenW> tommorris: what about chapters doing their own fundraising locally to deal with local reserves? There's nothing to prevent UK or DE or FR from chasing large donors outside the annual campaign, right?
Jul 28 17:41:25 <Cthulhu_Rima> Or we could just ban Europe. :P
Jul 28 17:41:29 <Theo10011> +1 to brion
Jul 28 17:41:30 <Theo10011> always
Jul 28 17:41:39 <effeietsanders> brion: exactly my idea
Jul 28 17:41:46 <sgardner> what did Brion say?
Jul 28 17:41:55 <Cthulhu_Rima> Leave money in Europe for Europe expenses
Jul 28 17:41:55 <sgardner> Got it, sorry.
Jul 28 17:41:56 <effeietsanders> "there is some sense to leaving at least a chunk of euro cash in euros -- especially since we do have euro expenses"
Jul 28 17:41:56 <StevenW> "brion: there is some sense to leaving at least a chunk of euro cash in euros -- especially since we do have euro expenses"
Jul 28 17:42:05 <Theo10011> omg spamming :P
Jul 28 17:42:08 <brion> heh
Jul 28 17:42:12 <sgardner> Yeah, I'm sure that is true. I don't know how we use the French Citibank account right now.
Jul 28 17:42:13 * Cthulhu_Rima bans Steve
Jul 28 17:42:17 * Beria bans effeietsanders and StevenW for spam :P
Jul 28 17:42:23 <sgardner> hey hey :-)
Jul 28 17:42:25 <brion> i leave the exact details to the money people on how to do that efficiently :)
Jul 28 17:42:26 <Seddon> effeietsanders: some chapters do include things like auditting, these are things that ceratinly have to be discussed,. Fundraising costs should basically include costs to recieve the donations and costs to send the money to the foundation
Jul 28 17:42:26 * Cthulhu_Rima bans Beria for spam :P
Jul 28 17:42:41 <effeietsanders> Seddon: lets save that discussion for later
Jul 28 17:42:54 <Seddon> ok :) ..... :P
Jul 28 17:42:56 <Theo10011> I have no idea how that applies to this discussion Seddon.
Jul 28 17:43:15 <Seddon> Theo10011, its was a response to something effe jsut said
Jul 28 17:43:21 <Theo10011> yes I saw.
Jul 28 17:43:37 <Theo10011> I still think it's a different discussion.
Jul 28 17:43:39 <sgardner> I'm interested in what you folks think about our current revenue-sharing, money-transferring, grant-making, fundraising practices.
Jul 28 17:43:41 <Mono> Theo10011, are you a WMF employee?
Jul 28 17:43:41 <effeietsanders> sgardner: I do know I was a bit confused when it was refused to me to be paid directly from the citibank account instead of from the US account
Jul 28 17:43:46 <effeietsanders> since that incurs more costs
Jul 28 17:43:47 <Theo10011> No.
Jul 28 17:43:48 <sgardner> Because like I say, the board will be discussing it in Haifa.
Jul 28 17:43:56 <effeietsanders> (7 euro + exchange costs)
Jul 28 17:44:05 <Mono> Mmkay.
Jul 28 17:44:08 <sgardner> effe: Yeah, I don't really know what the purpose of the French account is, or how we use it.
Jul 28 17:44:10 <StevenW> I have to say, I think it's pretty cool for the movement that ten years on, we have a network of chapters mature enough to be starting to hire staff (other than DE I mean) and talking about major international transfer issues. There are lot of similar movements (Creative Commons, etc.) that aren't even close to this kind of network.
Jul 28 17:44:12 <Maggie_> Mono: he is awesome nevertheless. :)
Jul 28 17:44:16 <effeietsanders> but if I understand you correctly, it is not a policy choice yet
Jul 28 17:44:20 <Mono> heh :)
Jul 28 17:44:27 <sgardner> I think it was just expected to replace Moneybookers as a pot for incoming donations. But I'm not sure about that.
Jul 28 17:44:35 <sgardner> And we have a new CFA! -- he will figure it out :-)
Jul 28 17:44:41 <effeietsanders> sgardner: the purpose of the Brussels account (the predecessor) was to enable non-chapter country folks to donate to the WMF
Jul 28 17:44:44 * Vito (~quassel@unaffiliated/vito) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 17:44:49 <effeietsanders> like, Belgian and Liechtenstein people
Jul 28 17:44:51 <sgardner> yeah -- Moneybookers replacement, then.
Jul 28 17:44:57 <sgardner> whoops
Jul 28 17:45:09 <effeietsanders> or Slovakian
Jul 28 17:45:22 <Theo10011> heh Mono knows I'm awesome. ;)
Jul 28 17:45:26 <effeietsanders> But also that might have changed over time ;)
Jul 28 17:45:28 <sgardner> sorry effe: you are correct. It wasn't replacing moneybookers, it was replacing the Brussels account that the Wikimedia Foundation didn't have direct signatory authority over.
Jul 28 17:45:35 <Beria> in that case, if that is a idea, i suggest open an account in Brazil, sgardner :P
Jul 28 17:45:36 <effeietsanders> yeah
Jul 28 17:45:44 <effeietsanders> that was awkward hehe
Jul 28 17:45:56 * Slytherin has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027])
Jul 28 17:45:56 <Beria> every year they complain that paypay don't accept reais
Jul 28 17:45:59 <StevenW> Maybe we should do a fundraising office hours with Pats and Megan to talk about some of this stuff more? Would ppl like that, or is the fundraising mailing list enough? ;-)
Jul 28 17:46:12 <sgardner> yeah. I felt very sorry for the volunteer who managed that acccount. He felt very vulnerable and exposed.
Jul 28 17:46:29 * Ranon is now known as Barras
Jul 28 17:46:29 <Seddon> Theo10011, issues like this are relavent. Especially in how the chapters contribute to the strategy of the foundation
Jul 28 17:46:29 <sgardner> I'd be super-interested in people's thoughts about the whole system. Since like I say, it's on the board's agenda this weekend.
Jul 28 17:46:32 <sgardner> What's working, what's not.
Jul 28 17:46:37 <Seddon> what they do with the money, how its used, the effectiveness of it etc
Jul 28 17:46:39 <Seddon> are all relavent
Jul 28 17:46:40 <sgardner> What's painful, what's easy.
Jul 28 17:46:43 <sgardner> Seddon: +1
Jul 28 17:46:47 <tommorris> oh yeah, sgardner, are there any plans to change the Wikimania grant system for next year?
Jul 28 17:46:53 <sgardner> tommorris: yeah
Jul 28 17:46:54 <effeietsanders> sgardner: ok, I hope my email will get a reply after that then ;)
Jul 28 17:47:00 <StevenW> abartov: you want to take that one?
Jul 28 17:47:00 * effeietsanders looks forward to it :)
Jul 28 17:47:05 <sgardner> We are putting more money into the grantmaking program.
Jul 28 17:47:19 <Seddon> tommorris, in what way?
Jul 28 17:47:21 <tommorris> sgardner: that's good. but what about selection criteria? are those going to change.
Jul 28 17:47:21 <sgardner> And Asaf has just launched a pretty good Advisory Council; do you know about it?
Jul 28 17:47:22 <Mono> Were any grants accepted?
Jul 28 17:47:28 <abartov> sorry, was away -- repeat the question?
Jul 28 17:47:31 * srikanthlogic has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
Jul 28 17:47:31 <sgardner> effe: what mail?
Jul 28 17:47:42 <effeietsanders> sgardner: on internal last week, about money transfer?
Jul 28 17:47:47 <Theo10011> sgardner: BTW has someone been hired to fill in Veronique's position?
Jul 28 17:47:51 <sgardner> Asaf, tommorris was asking about the grantmaking program., How it will change over the coming year.
Jul 28 17:47:59 <sgardner> Theo: yes!
Jul 28 17:48:06 <abartov> Ah, thanks.
Jul 28 17:48:11 <sgardner> Theo: Garfield Byrd. He starts August 3. He will be lovely.
Jul 28 17:48:14 <Seddon> Hey is cool :)
Jul 28 17:48:16 <Seddon> he*
Jul 28 17:48:20 * {b|food} is now known as bastique
Jul 28 17:48:21 <Theo10011> thank you Seddon.
Jul 28 17:48:28 <tommorris> sgardner: specifically with wikimania bursaries - some people have complained about not getting a grant, then feeling slightly envious of others who got full grants etc
Jul 28 17:48:33 <abartov> The Grants program has already changed -- take a look at the history of the Grants:Index page on Meta, and you'll see a significant edit I made a couple of months ago, revamping the program and changing criteria.
Jul 28 17:48:34 <Theo10011> I'll check the announcement sgardner.
Jul 28 17:48:35 <tommorris> I won't say who
Jul 28 17:48:52 <Cthulhu_Rima> The WMF should start its own chain of bookstores now that Borders is dead and B and N is on its way out.
Jul 28 17:48:57 <sgardner> He's got 22 years of non-profit finance experience, high integrity, nice guy... Seddon helped me with the interviewing process when he was here.
Jul 28 17:49:13 <abartov> For example, you no longer need to be a recognized chapter to apply for, and receive a grant. That's a major change in the Foundation's approach.
Jul 28 17:49:14 * tommorris didn't apply to the WMF but got a Chapter grant so it isn't relevant to me.
Jul 28 17:49:17 <Theo10011> oh nice.
Jul 28 17:49:20 <sgardner> effe: I didn't see your mail :-(
Jul 28 17:49:25 <sgardner> But I will go look for it.
Jul 28 17:49:34 <Beria> sgardner, any plans to change fundraising this year in brazil? We can't donate with paypal in reais (brazil's currency)
Jul 28 17:49:35 <Seddon> Tommorris: there is a problem is that we are trying to encourage attendence to wikimania to others outside the US
Jul 28 17:49:48 <Mono> Were any grants accepted?
Jul 28 17:49:53 * jorm (~bharris@ has joined #wikimedia-office
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Jul 28 17:49:57 <abartov> Additionally, the Grant Advisory Committee has been set up, and is composed entirely of community members (no staff).
Jul 28 17:49:57 <Seddon> I think those that are speaking get priority
Jul 28 17:50:07 <effeietsanders> sgardner: nobody did, apparently :( "Foundation transaction policy" 22 july
Jul 28 17:50:09 <Theo10011> Beria it's the same for India BTW but it might change if Hisham gets things going by the fundraiser.
Jul 28 17:50:15 <abartov> See its page on Meta and a blog post of mine in the Global section of the Wikimedia blog.
Jul 28 17:50:24 <StevenW> There is bunch of work being done on payment processing in local currencies for this fundraiser. Hopefully that will be the case Beria. Same for India.
Jul 28 17:50:25 <Mono> Were any grants accepted abartov?
Jul 28 17:50:32 <sgardner> I got it effe, thanks. I don't know how I missed it.
Jul 28 17:50:49 <sgardner> I will ask Barry to see if he reply today.
Jul 28 17:50:52 <Beria> mono, there are a page with the grants requests
Jul 28 17:50:59 <abartov> Mono: certainly! recently, WMEE's request to re-purpose a previous grant was approved.
Jul 28 17:51:11 <abartov> Mono: so was WM-NYC's request for same.
Jul 28 17:51:16 <Beria> and the GAC are working
Jul 28 17:51:18 <effeietsanders> sgardner: if it is on the board meeting agenda, after that might make more sense - there is no hurry :)
Jul 28 17:51:34 <abartov> We are close to resolving some other open grant requests, such as Wikimedia India's requests.
Jul 28 17:52:02 <Theo10011> yes that would be fun.
Jul 28 17:52:37 <sgardner> effe: I just pinged Barry.
Jul 28 17:52:47 <StevenW> So we've got 10-ish minutes left. Does anybody have any wildly different non-fundraising questions? Just so we don't miss them. :)
Jul 28 17:52:51 <abartov> Incidentally, I would point your attention to a draft policy we are working on, regarding WMF funding of staff in chapters:
Jul 28 17:53:04 <Theo10011> I think Beria had another question.
Jul 28 17:53:06 <Beria> StevenW and sgardner, help with Brazil's situation should not be part of Carolina's job?
Jul 28 17:53:10 <abartov> Grants:Hiring_Staff
Jul 28 17:53:15 <Beria> just did Theo10011 ;)
Jul 28 17:53:21 <Theo10011> yup
Jul 28 17:53:24 <sgardner> Does everyone know there is a new Global Education team at the Wikimedia Foundation?
Jul 28 17:53:36 * Fluffernutter has quit (Quit: This computer will be offline for a whole week. Terrifying!)
Jul 28 17:53:57 <sgardner> We have just wrapped up the Public Policy Initiative, which was funded by a restricted grant, and we are launching the GE team to do some of that work on an ongoing basis.
Jul 28 17:54:00 <StevenW> Beria: that's not really her thing is my understanding. Local currency issues is realm of Pats (Pena) in fundraising operations.
Jul 28 17:54:01 <Abbasjnr> Actually Asaf, the WMF has funded us and we weren't a recognised chapter yet. So I don't really consider that much of a change.
Jul 28 17:54:07 <Mono> sgardner, do you know if Zack is in the office today?
Jul 28 17:54:08 <sgardner> Persuading professors to assign article writing as coursework, etc.
Jul 28 17:54:14 * moushira has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
Jul 28 17:54:43 <Maggie_> Mono: No, he's not.
Jul 28 17:54:43 <abartov> Abbasjnr: the change is in policy :)
Jul 28 17:54:43 <Theo10011> Mono I doubt it. ;)
Jul 28 17:54:46 <Beria> So i will send a mail to Pats, StevenW
Jul 28 17:54:54 <sgardner> I sent an announcement yesterday to the staff about the GEP: I should forward it to the lists.
Jul 28 17:54:56 <Theo10011> but StevenW pats is still very new.
Jul 28 17:55:12 <StevenW> She has been working on it though.
Jul 28 17:55:13 <Beria> last year was hell with people asking all the time why we don't let them donate in reais
Jul 28 17:55:41 <StevenW> Anyway... global education program. W00t. :)
Jul 28 17:55:44 <Beria> i think i answered +100 mails about that (and i'm sure i was not the only one ;) )
Jul 28 17:56:10 <Maggie_> Beria: I hope Pats can help work it out.
Jul 28 17:56:21 <Beria> talking about brazil, when Carolina's job ends?
Jul 28 17:56:21 <Theo10011> I answered 600+ about INR.
Jul 28 17:56:25 <sgardner> oh hey tommorris asked a question a long time ago: why not fundraise all year.
Jul 28 17:56:30 <sgardner> I can answer that :-)
Jul 28 17:56:45 <StevenW> I think it's big deal we're doing this, because I remember as volunteer back when PPI started, I think the US-only nature of it was a complaint at the time.
Jul 28 17:56:45 <Beria> i want to see the final report
Jul 28 17:56:45 * bastique is now known as Cletus
Jul 28 17:56:47 * Cletus is now known as Cletus_Baidoo
Jul 28 17:56:49 <Mono> Maggie_, And Phillipe?
Jul 28 17:56:55 * Cletus_Baidoo hugs Mono
Jul 28 17:57:03 <sgardner> I spent some time a few weeks ago with a guy who used to run fundraising research for National Public Radio in the United States. He ran it for 30 years :-)
Jul 28 17:57:05 <Maggie_> I saw Philippe earlier, though he was running into a meeting, Mono. :)
Jul 28 17:57:15 <Mono> Sounds like Phillipe.
Jul 28 17:57:22 <Maggie_> Mono: True that.
Jul 28 17:57:22 <sgardner> And he told me we should be aiming to move towards recurring contributions (monthly debits) in order to shorten the fundraiser.
Jul 28 17:57:35 <sgardner> And that is actually a form of 'fundraising yearround.'
Jul 28 17:57:52 <StevenW> Except without bugging people with banners. :)
Jul 28 17:58:03 <sgardner> Why we cluster in the last three months of the year currently, is simply because that's when the bulk of donations come in to most non-profits.
Jul 28 17:58:05 * Cletus_Baidoo is now known as bastique
Jul 28 17:58:21 <sgardner> Certainly in North America: it is a little different in some other parts of the world.
Jul 28 17:58:23 <Theo10011> end of the year, tex-deductible donation time.
Jul 28 17:58:30 <sgardner> yeah, taxes.
Jul 28 17:58:44 <effeietsanders> Theo10011: tax years end in different months though :)
Jul 28 17:58:48 <sgardner> But I think it actually has more to do with people feeling generous and kind in the winter holiday season.
Jul 28 17:59:00 <Theo10011> sim effe :P
Jul 28 17:59:04 <sgardner> Most people do not bother to claim their tax deductions for donations, in the United States and Canada.
Jul 28 17:59:29 <Theo10011> yup, holiday cheer and goodwill.
Jul 28 17:59:29 <Mono> I do.
Jul 28 17:59:32 <sgardner> Tax deductibility is typically a bigger deal for rich people who are giving large amounts of money. Not so much for the kinds of donations we get.
Jul 28 17:59:50 <effeietsanders> sgardner: yeah, probably quite country dependent
Jul 28 17:59:54 <sgardner> Hey are we wrapping up?
Jul 28 17:59:57 <effeietsanders> (dutch like to deduce everything they can)
Jul 28 17:59:58 <Mono> Holiday cheer is the perfect excuse for selling knowledge.
Jul 28 18:00:00 <mindspillage> I wonder how many people who never bother to claim it and don't even itemize deducations still are motivated to donate because it's tax-deductible--knowing that it's vaguely a good thing but not really thinking about whether they will use the benefit.
Jul 28 18:00:01 * Snardbafulator has professionally fundraised and agrees it's mostly seasonal mood than tax-season appropriateness
Jul 28 18:00:03 <StevenW> Yep, that's a good idea.
Jul 28 18:00:03 <Theo10011> 1 min. to go StevenW
Jul 28 18:00:05 <bastique> looks like that time
Jul 28 18:00:05 <Theo10011> you should.
Jul 28 18:00:06 <sgardner> We should do a role call before we leave. Who will be in haifa?
Jul 28 18:00:06 <effeietsanders> (matter of principle ;) )
Jul 28 18:00:14 * StevenW raises hand
Jul 28 18:00:16 <Theo10011> not me :(
Jul 28 18:00:16 <Mono> I'll post logs of the meeting.
Jul 28 18:00:19 * mindspillage waves
Jul 28 18:00:20 <bastique> nope
Jul 28 18:00:21 <StevenW> THanks Mono
Jul 28 18:00:22 <Mono> I'm unable to attend.
Jul 28 18:00:24 <Theo10011> no scholarship!
Jul 28 18:00:26 <tommorris> sgardner: hopefully once the UK chapter has charity status we might be able to start taking Gift Aid donations.
Jul 28 18:00:35 * Abbasjnr has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
Jul 28 18:00:36 <Cthulhu_Rima> I only do political fundraising, which has no real mood.
Jul 28 18:00:36 <sgardner> mindspillage: I think that's true too. I think the tax piece is also just a prompt -- people are used to donating in that season.
Jul 28 18:00:42 <Snardbafulator> Not me, I'm too new
Jul 28 18:00:44 <tommorris> sgardner: I'll be in Haifa!
Jul 28 18:00:46 <bastique> no away time!
Jul 28 18:00:48 * abartov raises hand
Jul 28 18:00:57 <effeietsanders> I'll be in the dorms, does that count too?
Jul 28 18:01:02 <Cthulhu_Rima> You could turn Wikipedia into a Church and send out a collection at Christmas and Easter. :P
Jul 28 18:01:03 <sgardner> Snardbafulator, I don't know you, I don't think. How new are you?
Jul 28 18:01:12 * diegogrez has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
Jul 28 18:01:27 <Snardbafulator> First edit about two months ago
Jul 28 18:01:33 <sgardner> Oh nice. Welcome!
Jul 28 18:01:37 <effeietsanders> Cthulhu_Rima: the churches here collect every week though ;)
Jul 28 18:01:39 <Cthulhu_Rima> Wow, way new.
Jul 28 18:01:44 * Snardbafulator smiles. Thanks.
Jul 28 18:01:45 <Theo10011> Welcome to the community!!!
Jul 28 18:01:50 <Cthulhu_Rima> effeietsanders - but 90% of people only go twice a year. :P
Jul 28 18:01:53 <StevenW> :
Jul 28 18:01:55 <effeietsanders> Snardbafulator: nah, not new - you're an oldie already :D
Jul 28 18:01:58 <sgardner> tommorris, I'm not sure if we've ever met in person. Please say hi to me in Haifa :-)
Jul 28 18:02:00 <effeietsanders> welcome to the club
Jul 28 18:02:15 <Theo10011> join #wikipedia-en and say Hi to Ironholds to receive the customary greeting. :P
Jul 28 18:02:22 <effeietsanders> (if you're able to find this channel, you're not new :P )
Jul 28 18:02:23 <Cthulhu_Rima> effeietsanders - he isn't old, I've been banned longer than he has been around. :P
Jul 28 18:02:26 <tommorris> sgardner: no, I only got back into WP in Nov 2010 after... dark times at Citizendium.
Jul 28 18:02:44 <sgardner> Well welcome back :-)
Jul 28 18:02:46 <mindspillage> I didn't go to Wikimania 2005 because I still felt like too much of a newbie. I was kicking myself the week after.
Jul 28 18:03:01 <Maggie_> Age on projects has more to do with *what* you do than how long you do it. :)
Jul 28 18:03:01 <sgardner> Cthulhu-Rima, that is funny :-)
Jul 28 18:03:11 * mdale has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
Jul 28 18:03:18 * Beria is still waiting for her answer
Jul 28 18:03:18 <StevenW> Alright. Well I guess it's time to wrap up.
Jul 28 18:03:21 <sgardner> Okay guys, I need to wrap up and start making my talk for Wikimania, actually. It's time.
Jul 28 18:03:35 <sgardner> Beria, answer to what?
Jul 28 18:03:43 <Cthulhu_Rima> Mindspillage, that one mistake surely cost you any ability to fit in with this community. :P
Jul 28 18:03:44 <Beria> <Beria> talking about brazil, when Carolina's job ends?
Jul 28 18:03:45 <sgardner> I missed your question.
Jul 28 18:03:47 <Beria> <Beria> i want to see the final report
Jul 28 18:03:54 <sgardner> Oh I missed that, sorry.
Jul 28 18:04:04 <sgardner> And I actually don't know the answer.
Jul 28 18:04:15 * Abbasjnr (3e186ff5@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #wikimedia-office
Jul 28 18:04:20 <sgardner> Sorry :-(
Jul 28 18:04:23 <Beria> no problem
Jul 28 18:04:31 <sgardner> Carolina is working for Barry; I just don't know. Sorry.
Jul 28 18:04:34 <Beria> i send a mail to barry asking for
Jul 28 18:04:36 <sgardner> Okay guys I've gotta go.
Jul 28 18:04:41 <Beria> bye sue
Jul 28 18:04:43 <StevenW> Bye everyone!
Jul 28 18:04:43 <sgardner> (I'll remind Barry you're waiting, Beria.)
Jul 28 18:04:45 <sgardner> Bye everybody
Jul 28 18:04:45 <bastique> bye
Jul 28 18:04:49 <sgardner> Nice to talk with you all :-)
Jul 28 18:04:54 <Theo10011> byeee
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