IRC office hours/Office hours 2011-11-18
Session Start: Fri Nov 18 21:57:41 2011
Session Ident: #wikimedia-office
[21:57] * Now talking in #wikimedia-office
[21:57] * Topic is 'Wikimedia Foundation office channel | For the next session, see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours | Channel logged during meetings.�'
[21:57] * Set by Theo10011!~Theo10011@wikimedia/Theo10011 on Thu Sep 22 15:18:12
[21:58] * gwicke (~firstname.lastname@example.org) Quit (Quit: Bye!)
[21:59] * tommorris (~tommorris@wikimedia/Tom-Morris) has joined #wikimedia-office
[21:59] * tommorris would like to rate the Article Feedback Tool as both comprehensive and well-written and also being the lovechild of Justin Bieber.
[22:00] * tommorris is an expert on this topic.
[22:00] <fabriceflorin> Hehe tomorris ;o)
[22:00] <Ironholds> tommorris: quiet, you :P
[22:00] <Ironholds> jps: you were asking about office hours? Now you can find out :)
[22:01] <jps> \o/
[22:01] <Logan_> zomg office hours
[22:01] <Ironholds> Logan_: indeed!
[22:01] <Ironholds> okay, this'll be a bit shorter than usual, because it's mostly "hey, so this is what the devs have done this week and this is the plan"
[22:02] * vigorous_af_ (~v_a@wikimedia/vigorous-action) has joined #wikimedia-office
[22:02] <Ironholds> but as always, I encourage all questions, either in the session or afterwards when I'm hanging around louchely :P
[22:02] * vigorous_afk (~v_a@wikimedia/vigorous-action) Quit (Disconnected by services)
[22:02] <Ironholds> fabriceflorin, if you'd like to open?
[22:02] <fabriceflorin> Hello everyone, good to catch up with you again on a quiet Friday afternoon ....
[22:03] * jps nods appreciatively
[22:03] <Demiurge1000> (and evening)
[22:04] <fabriceflorin> This is going to be a short IRC chat -- a lot of the Wikimedia staff is India right now, so it's just Ironholds and yours truly right now ...
[22:04] * geniice (~chatzilla@wikipedia/geniice) has joined #wikimedia-office
[22:04] <fabriceflorin> We'd like to share some of the highlights of what we worked on this week on the Article Feedback Tool v5 project.
[22:05] <fabriceflorin> I just came back from a visit with our developers at OmniTI in Maryland, working onsite both Wednesday and Thursday
[22:05] <fabriceflorin> See development team photos - http://www.flickr.com/photos/fabola/sets/72157627802960348/
[22:06] * Krinkle (~Krinkle@wikimedia/Krinkle) has joined #wikimedia-office
[22:07] <Ironholds> hey, Krinkle, geniice :)
[22:07] <fabriceflorin> Winalized all key requirements for phase 1.0 (features, data model, technical design, metrics plan) - we finally have a clear roadmap for our next steps, hallelujah!
[22:07] <Ironholds> (so, in non-technical speak: we know everything that's going into the first version. Broadly :P)
[22:07] <tommorris> "Winalized"?
[22:07] <tommorris> Oh, finalized
[22:07] <fabriceflorin> We prioritized all features and scheduled them in 3 groups: phase 1.0 (Dec. 12 launch), phase 1.5 (Dec. 21? launch) -- and phase 2+ (TBD 2012)
[22:07] <Krinkle> Ironholds: Only have one question regarding AFT (not really related to this conversation I think). Do you know how to contact seanheavey ? I see his commits but he doesn't have a wiki account linked nor is there an emailadres in his USERINFO file
[22:08] <Ironholds> Krinkle: are we talking bugzilla or git here?
[22:08] <Ironholds> re commits
[22:08] <Krinkle> neither
[22:08] <Krinkle> svn
[22:08] <fabriceflorin> Here are the Phase 1.0 Features on our plate right now:
[22:08] <Ironholds> hmmn. I don't; want me to drop engineering-as-a-whole an email to find out?
[22:08] <fabriceflorin> â€¢ 3 feedback forms:
[22:08] <fabriceflorin> - option 1 - did you find what you were looking for?
[22:08] <fabriceflorin> - option 2 - suggestion / question / problem / praise
[22:08] <fabriceflorin> - option 3 - review this article
[22:09] <Krinkle> Ironholds: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/author/seanheavey
[22:09] <Ironholds> Krinkle: cool. I'll find out :)
[22:09] <fabriceflorin> â€¢ basic feedback page (only accessible if you know the URL tag): basic listing of full posts (most recent comments by default), basic filtering (all, comments-only, flagged only, hidden-only, by option), basic sorting (by date / by rating), flag for abuse, hide/show this post (admins only)
[22:10] <Krinkle> Ironholds: Thanks :) I looked on officewiki as well, not there either
[22:11] <Ironholds> Krinkle: he's part of the OmniTI team, so maybe they do special stuff as outside contractors. I shall investigate!
[22:11] <fabriceflorin> We pushed Option 1 to prototype this week. Here's what that form looks like (this is a screenshot, not a mockup!!!):
[22:11] <fabriceflorin> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFT-v5-Feedback-Form-Option1-Screenshot-11-18.png
[22:11] <Krinkle> Anyone committing to svn should have a MediaWIki.org wiki account and linked, so that they get notifications of FIXME and code review.
[22:11] <Krinkle> It's one of the steps in the "get commit access" how to :D
[22:12] <fabriceflorin> And here's a first color mockup of Option 2:
[22:12] <fabriceflorin> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFT-v5-Feedback-Form-Option2-Mockup-11-18.png
[22:12] <Ironholds> jps, Logan_, any comments on that design?
[22:12] <Ironholds> tommorris, if you're around? :)
[22:13] <fabriceflorin> Here's that same Option 2 with colors for all hilites:
[22:13] <fabriceflorin> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFT-v5-Feedback-Form-Option2-Mockup-All-Hilites-11-18.png
[22:13] <jps> looking
[22:13] <Logan_> looks pretty nice, clean
[22:13] <Logan_> not so sure about interface consistency, though
[22:13] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, Logan. What do you mean about interface consistency?
[22:13] <jps> how does it render in lynx?
[22:14] <Logan_> well, maybe same blues in the gradients as with the tabs in Vector
[22:14] <fabriceflorin> Hi JPS, we haven't started to test in lynx yet, but the goal is to be consistent across platforms.
[22:14] <tommorris> Ironholds: it could have slightly more whitespace around the icons - as in between the lightbulb and "suggestion" text etc. looks slightly cramped
[22:14] <fabriceflorin> Logan, can you share a URL of what you mean by the tabs in Vector?
[22:15] <tommorris> and I'd be slightly concerned that "Help improve this article" might draw people away from editing. AS in they might end up thinking that they help improve the article by using AFT rather than by editing
[22:15] <fabriceflorin> (so I can share with the developers?)
[22:15] <Ironholds> tommorris: that's a valid concern
[22:15] <tommorris> but otherwise, yeah, looks pretty awesome
[22:15] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: http://puu.sh/8TNX
[22:15] <Ironholds> so, Dario has actually come up with a research plan for this
[22:15] <Logan_> it's really not that much of a big deal, I don't mind the design of the box too much
[22:15] <Logan_> it looks pretty nice :)
[22:15] * tommorris would love to test it out without using the mouse.
[22:15] <Ironholds> with all the versions, we'll be testing anon and new account activity on the pages versus the activity on all the other designs, and the activity in the same period before the new AFT was put into place
[22:15] * tommorris has been known to find unique ways of breaking things just by trying to use the keyboard only.
[22:16] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, Logan, good point. Keep in mind that we're saving the final UI tweaks for when Brandon (Jorm) comes back for India.
[22:16] <Logan_> it looks pretty nice :)
[22:16] <Logan_> er
[22:16] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: actually, second-guessing that idea, a bit - I think it looks good as it is
[22:16] <Ironholds> Logan_: I am logging all the suggestions, though, don't worry :)
[22:16] <Logan_> up key fail
[22:16] <Ironholds> oh, okay, nevermind! :P
[22:16] <Krinkle> fabriceflorin: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFT-v5-Feedback-Form-Option2-Mockup-All-Hilites-11-18.png Looks like GetSatisfaction :)
[22:16] <Logan_> ah, yes, that's what it reminded me of
[22:16] <Ironholds> Krinkle: Well, funny story...
[22:16] <tommorris> Yes, GetSatisfaction is very much what it's like
[22:16] <Logan_> now all we need is an emoticon box
[22:17] <Logan_> "how does this make you feel?"
[22:17] <Ironholds> every time someone's come up with a suggestion and I've passed it to the devs
[22:17] <fabriceflorin> Funny you should bring it up. We've used GetSatisfaction as a model for option 2, because we like what they've done.
[22:17] <Logan_> :P
[22:17] <Ironholds> Fabrice has been all "GetSatisfaction finds X works really well!" or "GetSatisfaction does Y!" :P
[22:17] <Logan_> GetSatisfaction has an awesome user interface
[22:17] <fabriceflorin> Great artists "steal", as the saying goes ...
[22:17] <fabriceflorin> Or maybe we should say "borrow" ...
[22:17] <tommorris> weird, I thought MSDN had something similar, but it just has an e-mail link
[22:17] <Krinkle> I've been suggesting things the get satisfaction way as well, but when I joined the team the design was already done
[22:18] <Krinkle> (I programmed part of v4)
[22:18] <tommorris> and, weird, they've changed it all at MSDN
[22:18] <fabriceflorin> Glad you like it Logan. We'll see if the A/B test confirms your instincts.
[22:18] <Logan_> :)
[22:18] <Ironholds> Krinkle: ooh, cool! We should get you more involved on the volunteer side
[22:18] <fabriceflorin> Here is our first color mockup for Option 3:
[22:18] <fabriceflorin> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFT-v5-Feedback-Form-Option3-Mockup-11-18.png
[22:18] <Ironholds> great minds think alike :)
[22:18] <Ironholds> what do people think of the third option? Personally, I think stars are asking for trouble
[22:18] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: I don't know about stars - I thought those were getting outdated
[22:18] <Logan_> oh, ditto
[22:18] <tommorris> ah, here we go - http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/5y536ey6.aspx - go to the bottom and choose "Feedback"
[22:19] <tommorris> that's how NOT to do it ;-)
[22:19] <Logan_> I mean, even the way to choose the number of stars can vary among people
[22:19] <tommorris> Microsoft are always helpful in showing how not to do it
[22:19] <Krinkle> Ironholds: Well, I'm currently working on other projects of the WMF Features team
[22:19] <fabriceflorin> Yeah, we're not big on Option 3 here either, but are just throwing it into the mix for A/B testing, just in case we're wrong ;o)
[22:19] <jps> the stars were terrible. I have a dataset with median=4 mean=2.8
[22:19] <Ironholds> Krinkle: aww, we can't snarf you :(
[22:19] <Ironholds> tommorris: "did this page load quickly?" "no, and as such I CAN'T FILL OUT THIS FORM TELLING YOU SO ARGH" :P
[22:19] * Barras is now known as God
[22:19] <fabriceflorin> Yeah, jps, I know what you mean. I suspect that Option 3 will not fare very well.
[22:20] <Krinkle> Ironholds: But if help is needed, ask my EPM (Alolita).
[22:20] <tommorris> Ironholds: the best bit is "How useful is this topic?" -- well, if I want to know the methods that exist on a List object, quite a lot. If not, fucking useless. What they should be asking is "does the page actually answer your damn question on the topic?"
[22:20] <Ironholds> Krinkle: neat! Will do :)
[22:20] <fabriceflorin> Krinkle, do you work with WMF? In SF? What's your real world name.
[22:20] * BarkingFish (~BarkingIn@openglobe/BarkingFish) has joined #wikimedia-office
[22:20] <Ironholds> tommorris: haha.
[22:20] <fabriceflorin> Here is a color mockup for Option 4: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFT-v5-Feedback-Form-Option4-Mockups-11-18.png
[22:21] <Krinkle> fabriceflorin: I do, as part-time contractor due to college. - working from home in the netherlands.
[22:21] * Retrieving #wikimedia-office modes...
[22:21] <tommorris> the type on that mockup is very strange
[22:21] <fabriceflorin> Cool, hope to see you next time I'm in the office!
[22:21] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: eh... is that really necessary?
[22:21] <Logan_> it almost could encourage vandalism, that huge edit button
[22:21] <fabriceflorin> Hi Tommorris, the type will look like the Option 1 screenshot I shared earlier -- please disregard the types in the color mockups, which are just placeholders.
[22:22] <Ironholds> Logan_: I think the hope is it encourages more good edits than vandalistic ones :)
[22:22] <fabriceflorin> We'll follow Wikimedia guidelines on all fonts, final colors, etc.
[22:22] <tommorris> Rather vandalism than "what? I can edit Wikipedia? Don't they have some paid staff member write the encyclopedia?"
[22:22] <Logan_> there should be a comma before the "and"
[22:22] * EdJohnston (~chatzilla@wikipedia/EdJohnston) has joined #wikimedia-office
[22:23] <Logan_> <-- picky grammar person
[22:23] <Ironholds> tommorris: "they do, but only in their spare time"
[22:23] <fabriceflorin> Now here is our first mockup for the feedback page, hot off the presses: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Article-Feedback-Page-Mockup-11-18.png
[22:23] <Krinkle> An interesting point to consider though is the encoring of edits compared to the usability of the editor. Until the VisualEditor is done and out, linking to the edit page may not do more good than bad. (even it brings 1/1000 good edits, if it also causes 10/1000 more nonsense edits that would increase workload for vandalism fighters big time)
[22:23] <Krinkle> encoring*encouriging
[22:23] <Krinkle> encouraging*
[22:23] <Logan_> oh no, not the singular "they" :(
[22:24] * Logan_ cries on Ironholds's shoulder
[22:24] <fabriceflorin> If you are an administrator or editor, you would see the admin tools on that page:
[22:24] <fabriceflorin> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Article-Feedback-Page-Mockup-AdminTools-11-18.png
[22:24] <Ironholds> Krinkle: that's true. The value of edits will also (hopefully) be tested
[22:24] <tommorris> Is there going to be any plan to transfer the useful (i.e. "My friend Joey is gay!") feedback on to the discussion page
[22:24] <Ironholds> and Aaron is working on a hand-coding proposal to test the value of comments, too
[22:24] <Ironholds> tommorris: that's certainly being investigated; I think it's still under discussion as to how the form will appear
[22:24] <Krinkle> Does AFT v5 make MoodBar redundant ?
[22:24] <Ironholds> (that is, how it will appear on the talkpage)
[22:24] <Logan_> no, but honestly
[22:25] <Logan_> does it check for a gender setting?
[22:25] <tommorris> have it so admins or trusted users or whatever be able to click a button and it takes it from the AFT feedback system and then moves it into a new section on the discussion page
[22:25] <fabriceflorin> Good points, Krinkle, but the overall goal of this project is to encourage people to edit.
[22:25] * pgehres (~email@example.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:25] <Logan_> because I really don't like the "they" in "they were looking for"
[22:25] <Ironholds> Krinkle: I don't think so. MoodBar is more about gauging the quality of someone's overall experience as an editor
[22:25] <Krinkle> getsatisfaction-style seems great for general site feedback, perhaps less so for page-specific feedback, don't know just a feeling
[22:25] <tommorris> there is some "us and them" stuff - Logan_ is right.
[22:26] <Ironholds> Moodbar is for "someone was mean to me!" or "I can't work out X!". AFT is more "so, this article's missing a date of birth, that'd be useful to have"
[22:26] <Logan_> tommorris: ++
[22:26] <fabriceflorin> We plan to add a link to this feedback page from all feedback forms -- as well as from the talk page.
[22:26] <Logan_> also, I don't think it's necessary for users who are not admins to see how many people flagged a comment for abuse
[22:27] <Logan_> that could encourage flagging
[22:27] <fabriceflorin> We are not yet designing a proposed integration on the talk page until the project is a bit more mature. The first designs for that will be proposed for discussion in January.
[22:27] <Ironholds> Logan_: good point, but there are a very small number of admins. Perhaps if it was "autoconfirmed and up can see..."?
[22:27] <Logan_> hmm, that could work
[22:27] <fabriceflorin> Good point, Logan, we were also thinking of hiding the flag counts except for admins.
[22:28] <BarkingFish> Ironholds: since we already have access to tags for marking missing information, would what you mention really be an effective use of AFT?
[22:28] <jps> Where is the "Learn how to edit" link in http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFT-v5-Feedback-Form-Option4-Mockups-11-18.png supposed to go?
[22:28] <Logan_> BarkingFish: this is really for people who are unaware of these tags, no?
[22:29] <BarkingFish> I mean, having someone mention it's missing, only for someone to come add a tag to it, and leave it for someone else to fix, doesn't seem too helpful.
[22:29] * Demiurge1000 is now known as D1000|Away
[22:29] <Ironholds> BarkingFish: well, yes
[22:29] <Krinkle> Ironholds: So the main focus is to encourage editing/participation. But the results are more then just stored right ? They are to be used by the community to improve the articles, right ?
[22:29] <Ironholds> the tags at the moment are only useful if you know of the tags and can grok wikimarkup
[22:29] <Ironholds> that cuts out most editors
[22:29] <Ironholds> Krinkle: encouraging editing is 50 percent of the purpose - the other 50 percent is to encourage reader feedback, and for that, yeah, comments will be saved :)
[22:29] <fabriceflorin> Hi JPS, the link to Learn to edit would go to the best tutorial Wikimedia has at the time. Erik Moeller sent me a URL I can dig up, if you like ...
[22:29] <jps> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tutorial?
[22:29] <Logan_> jps: probably http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_edit
[22:30] <Logan_> which redirects to Help:Editing
[22:30] <Logan_> oh, I guess the tutorial makes more sense
[22:30] * AlexandrDmitri (~chatzilla@wikimedia/AlexandrDmitri) Quit (Quit: Exterminated by daleks.)
[22:30] <fabriceflorin> Good links, you guys? Do you have a preference between the two?
[22:30] <BarkingFish> Well consider this then: Have the AFT include a button to click - Missing some info?, for example - user clicks it, enters into a popup what is missing, and the AFT adds the appropriate tag to the article, thereby cutting out a step in what I mentioned above
[22:31] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: jps's link is good (Wikipedia:Tutorial)
[22:31] <jps> hmm. They are both very good, but I would *really* like to see some actual (double) blind user experience testing to figure out which one is better
[22:31] <Logan_> BarkingFish: there would need to be some AI there to determine which tag is necessary, no?
[22:32] <BarkingFish> Logan_: yes, there would be, could be done based on key words entered into the popup
[22:32] <Logan_> that could cause overtagging, though
[22:32] * PhancyPhysicist (~firstname.lastname@example.org) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:32] <fabriceflorin> Other phase 1.0 deliverables include: edit call to action, help page, bucketing via cookies, data collection of stage 1 metrics, small set of articles
[22:32] <Logan_> better to fix the content than to just stick a bunch of tags on the top of the article, honestly
[22:32] <Ironholds> BarkingFish: I think the problem there is it assumes that readers are all sane and reasonable people :P
[22:32] <Logan_> that too :P
[22:32] <jps> do we currently have a stream of inexpeienced editors being pulled off the street somewhere (other than San Francisco's 4th street) to test these things?
[22:33] <BarkingFish> Logan_: that also assumes that the user can fix the content, or has the missing data available to them
[22:33] <Logan_> pulled off the street? that sounds sketchy :P
[22:33] <fabriceflorin> Which subset of Wikipedia English articles do you think we should test in phase 1.0? (we want a mix of high-traffic/uneditable and low-traffic/editable pages)
[22:33] <Ironholds> jps: we're liasing with Maggie and Philippe on getting newbs and readers involved. Want me to find out the specifics and get back to you?
[22:33] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: so talk page integration isn't coming yet?
[22:33] <Ironholds> BarkingFish: so, if we say "hey, just add a tag!" then, well, we're giving vandals and POV-pushers an easy way to bork things
[22:33] <Logan_> don't do Justin Bieber; his article skews the results
[22:34] <Logan_> maybe just don't do BLPs at all at first
[22:34] <Ironholds> plus, some articles get thousands of AFT hits a day. Edit conflicts ad infinitum! :P
[22:34] <Ironholds> Logan_: I think we'll need to include some blps, because the pool of articles has to be vaaaguely representative
[22:34] <BarkingFish> Logan_: that might be the best solution - don't apply the AFT to BLP.
[22:34] <fabriceflorin> Logan, we're saving talk page integration for phase 2, so we don't clutter it up until the feedback page is more mature. But we aim to add a link to that feedback page from the talk page by phase 1.5.
[22:34] <Ironholds> I mean, if we test something on non-BLP articles, it works like a charm and then we deploy and it turns out it's all melty with living people?
[22:34] <Logan_> I just worry that people will be judging the content, or, well, the person, when it comes to BLP
[22:34] <BarkingFish> In theory, and probably in practice too, it sounds too risky.
[22:35] <Ironholds> Logan_: that's definitely a concern, but those comments can be removed
[22:35] <Ironholds> it's worth nothing that the comments page will be NOINDEXed
[22:35] <Ironholds> *noting
[22:35] <Logan_> hmm, okay
[22:35] <Logan_> you'll need to spread the word about this to the admins so that they know to be patrolling for bad comments
[22:35] <Logan_> maybe integrate it into Huggle
[22:36] <jps> If it were up to me we'd have something going on in the East Coast. I've spent plenty of time in San Francisco SOMA and there is no way I would ever claim the average person off the street is inexperienced enough to be a useful UX subject. There must be dozens of metropolitan areas over the world which would be better for testing introductions to editing
[22:36] <fabriceflorin> Dario (DarTar) wants to test both high-traffic and low-traffic pages, and we want to include a few BLPs just to understand how people use the tool there.
[22:36] <Logan_> oh, and what about oversighting issues? with personal data?
[22:36] <Logan_> are OSers able to remove all traces of comments?
[22:36] <Ironholds> Logan_: I was going to bring that up but forgot! :P
[22:36] <Logan_> great minds think alike, clearly ;P
[22:36] <Ironholds> consider it on "list of stuff I'll be checking with the devs on"
[22:36] <Ironholds> I'll get back to you when I have an answer :)
[22:36] <Logan_> okay
[22:37] <fabriceflorin> Good point, Logan, we need to look more into this question of oversighting issues.
[22:37] <Ironholds> jps: agreed, but that might provide a substantial skew. I'll find out what Philippe and Maggie are doing and get back to you :)
[22:37] jps is 4306a383@gateway/web/freenode/ip.22.214.171.124 * 67-6-163-131.hlrn.qwest.net/126.96.36.199 - http://
[22:37] jps on #wikipedia-en #wikimedia-office
[22:37] jps using rowling.freenode.net Corvallis, OR, USA
[22:37] jps is logged in as jps
[22:37] jps End of /WHOIS list.
[22:37] <Ironholds> jps: just so I have a way of contacting you - are you jps on-wiki, too?
[22:37] <fabriceflorin> Here's another question: on the feedback page, would it be useful to provide a link to show who voted a feedback post up or down (or who flagged it for abuse), for transparency reasons?
[22:37] <Logan_> no, I don't think so
[22:38] <Ironholds> I agree, actually
[22:38] <Logan_> it could cause people to not want to vote, since their username would be revealed
[22:38] <Ironholds> I think if a user is up-voting or down-voting junk, well, the stuff will be removed
[22:38] <fabriceflorin> So this would let is figure out who is gaming the page, rather than have no clue ...
[22:38] <Ironholds> we don't need usernames to identify patterns
[22:38] <jps> seriously, I once went up to a teenage girl at 5th and Harrison in San Francisco, and said, "hey have you ever edited Wikipedia?" and she called me a meatpuppeteer. I am not making this up
[22:38] <Ironholds> jps: hahahaha
[22:38] <tommorris> jps: Win!
[22:38] <jps> she had a nose ring :/
[22:38] <Logan_> Ironholds: well, administrators would only need to know that, then, no?
[22:38] <Ironholds> jps: it was CC-BY-SA, don't worry
[22:39] <fabriceflorin> JPS, I also get so many answers along these lines -- regular folks have no idea that they can edit the encyclopedia.
[22:39] * tommorris goes to m:bash that
[22:39] <Ironholds> Logan_: the identities of upvoters/downvoters?
[22:39] <Logan_> yes
[22:39] <tommorris> jps: any problem with me m:bash-ing that anecdote?
[22:39] <Ironholds> Logan_: well, that's what's up for discussion :). What do you think should be done?
[22:39] <fabriceflorin> The lady on the plane yesterday was telling me she felt unqualified. When I told her she is probably an expert at something, she agreed to go to a page she knows about, and make an edit in the next 30 days.
[22:39] <Logan_> Ironholds: if anything, only admins should be able to view that, in my opinion
[22:40] <fabriceflorin> So most of our readers don't even realize they can, and we hope to nudge them through the AFT v5 to participate more ...
[22:40] <jps> I don't know what it means but sure. My only regret is that I didn't photograph her
[22:40] <Ironholds> Logan_: and should it be visible at all? like, are you saying "admins should get it" or "nobody should get it, but if SOMEONE has to, it should be admins"?
[22:40] <Logan_> jps: well, I mean, that would be somewhat creepy :P
[22:40] <Logan_> Ironholds: I guess the former
[22:40] <Ironholds> Logan_: okies :)
[22:41] * tommorris wonders if the Article Feedback Tool has caused any Justin Bieber related feedback. I shall go search mediawiki.org and Bugzilla.
[22:41] <fabriceflorin> Logan, we are considering adding a link under the vote counts next to the Yes/No buttons in the feedback page, so you can see who voted that post up or down.
[22:41] <jps> it felt very creepy at the time
[22:41] * tommorris may become the first person to ever search for justin bieber on MediaWiki
[22:41] <Ironholds> tommorris: it's on the toolserver, actually
[22:41] <Logan_> Justin Bieber?
[22:42] <Ironholds> Logan_: the data dumps
[22:42] <fabriceflorin> This would either show a user name or an IP address, but at least you could tell who voted (or flagged) this post.
[22:42] <Ironholds> he wouldn't fit :P
[22:42] <fabriceflorin> Is this feature worth it?
[22:42] <Logan_> hdh
[22:42] <Ironholds> oh god, I've now got the image of Justin Bieber crammed into a server rack
[22:42] <Logan_> -d +e
[22:42] <Ironholds> "stop singing 'Baby' or we turn the servers on again and you roast"
[22:42] <tommorris> mediawiki.org: Results 1 - 20 of 33 for justin bieber
[22:42] <tommorris> I blame the AFT for that
[22:42] <tommorris> ;-)
[22:42] <Logan_> <.<
[22:42] <Ironholds> haha
[22:43] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: see my above discussion with Ironholds :)
[22:43] <tommorris> so, okay, I gotta question: is the new AFT going up on a testwiki anywhere?
[22:43] <Ironholds> tommorris, jps, what do you think about the link? Should users be able to see who votes comments up and down? If so, what user groups?
[22:44] <tommorris> I'd quite like to batter the shit out of it with weird browsers
[22:44] <tommorris> perhaps test.wikipedia.org ;-)
[22:45] <Ironholds> tommorris: and do you want to answer the question? :P
[22:45] <fabriceflorin> Here's another question which keeps me up at night: if we get high levels of spam, should we consider some form of automated filtering, using open source spam filters to de-prioritize suspected spam on the feedback page?
[22:45] * DarkoNeko (~udontcare@wikipedia/darkoneko) Quit (Quit: Saigo no mori kara saisho no kouya he hakobarete yuku~)
[22:45] <jps> which link, Ironholds?
[22:45] <tommorris> identity of voters? Err... I have no ideological preference. I just want to do what's least creepy for the users.
[22:45] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: abuse filter, no?
[22:46] <tommorris> Admins only seems reasonably if it might expose creepiness
[22:46] <fabriceflorin> Should we use the edit filter, the spam blacklist and/or the abuse filter to prioritize AFT comments?
[22:46] <Ironholds> jps: a link showing users who voted up or down on what comments. Should it be available? if so, who to?
[22:46] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, Tommorris and Logan for your response to the question about voter and flagger links!
[22:47] <tommorris> Here's a potential creeptastic scenario: someone goes to a sex-related page, gives article feedback tool, then sees a comment and upranks it
[22:47] * LauraHale is now known as Laura|Away
[22:47] <tommorris> They don't necessarily want their username/IP broadcast to the world
[22:47] <tommorris> but, of course, there's potential for abuse
[22:47] <tommorris> so, yeah, not sure
[22:48] <Logan_> fabriceflorin: no problem :)
[22:48] <tommorris> Not having it exposed in such a way that 4chan can come and spam the fuck out of it would be a useful feature
[22:48] <fabriceflorin> We also want you guys to know that we are on an incredibly tight schedule, given all of the holiday activity, lots of moving parts -- and developers' already crammed workloads. So we have plenty of community feedback for us to complete development in coming weeks, and will be locking down requirements until we release our first versions in mid-December. Hope you guys are OK with that. ....
[22:49] <fabriceflorin> But we will be looking for a few community members who are technically- oriented and have experience with posting bug reports to help us test the beta code on these dates:
[22:49] <fabriceflorin> â€¢ beta code testing for phase 1.0 from Wed. Nov. 30 to Fri. Dec. 2
[22:49] <fabriceflorin> â€¢ beta code testing for phase 1.5 from Thu. Dec. 15 to Mon. Dec. 19
[22:49] <tommorris> that's cool
[22:49] * tommorris is glad to see that there is active progress being made on the AFT
[22:50] <Ironholds> tommorris: there is!
[22:50] <Ironholds> if the devs go more than an hour without a commit, we turn on their shock collars :P
[22:50] * aschmidt (~aschmidt@p5B35D95E.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #wikimedia-office
[22:50] * PhancyPhysicist (~email@example.com) has joined #wikimedia-office
[22:50] <Ironholds> tommorris: you want to help out with the testing? you're pretty good with this technical cody stuff :P
[22:51] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, Tom, it's keeping us up late in the night, but we are committed to making this a success ... thanks to all the great feedback from folks like you!
[22:51] * tommorris can do browser testing
[22:51] * tommorris is experienced at finding unique ways of breaking things
[22:51] <fabriceflorin> We will of course want to continue our community IRC chats through it all, and we propose these dates:
[22:51] <fabriceflorin> â€¢ No IRC Chat next week, because of Thanksgiving (Nov. 24)
[22:51] <fabriceflorin> â€¢ IRC Chat Thu. Dec. 1 (after 1.0 first beta)
[22:51] <fabriceflorin> â€¢ No IRC Chat the following week, so we can focus on launch
[22:51] <fabriceflorin> â€¢ IRC Chat Fri. Dec. 16 (after 1.0 launches)
[22:51] <fabriceflorin> â€¢ IRC Chat Thu. Dec. 22 (after 1.5 launches)
[22:52] <fabriceflorin> How do these dates work for you guys?
[22:53] <tommorris> sounds good
[22:53] * tommorris is usually attached to some kind of typey-typey-screen thing.
[22:53] <fabriceflorin> It's an insane schedule, but we just MIGHT be able to make it work ;o)
[22:54] <Ironholds> the Wikimedia Foundation: Putting the "extreme" in extreme programming
[22:54] <Ironholds> so, does anyone have any preference on times?
[22:55] <Logan_> wait, one more thing
[22:55] <Ironholds> tommorris, Logan_, jps? Does this time of day work for you guys, should we shift it earlier, later...
[22:55] <Ironholds> Logan_: shoot!
[22:55] <Logan_> does the feedback tool take blocks into account?
[22:55] <Logan_> like, does it let blocked users give feedback?
[22:55] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, tommoris, we would love it if you could make things break for us BEFORE we launch ;o)
[22:55] <jps> Ironholds: I'm okay with just the tally. There's often good reasons to keep votes secret, but on article feedback it's okay for someone who *really wants* to know how people voted to scroll through what is essentially a log file
[22:55] <jps> There're*
[22:56] <Ironholds> jps: awesome :)
[22:56] <jps> :)
[22:56] <Logan_> Ironholds: ^
[22:56] <Ironholds> Logan_: awesome! Okay, so we've got pretty uniform opinion on that.
[22:56] <fabriceflorin> Great question, Logan. We're still debating whether or not to let blocked users give feedback -- but my hunch would be that the block should still take effect.
[22:56] * jps resists the urge to brohoof
[22:56] <Logan_> ah
[22:56] <Ironholds> Logan_: in the meantime, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Article_Feedback_Tool/Version_5#Commentspam is where we're discussing what to do with blocks, integrating the AFT into community processes, etc
[22:56] <Ironholds> so if you have any comments, please drop them there and I can pass them on :)
[22:56] <Logan_> okay, cool :)
[22:57] <Logan_> I should start talking on the talk page
more often at all :P
[22:57] <Ironholds> Logan_: haha
[22:57] <Ironholds> okay, can I ask you guys a question, now?
[22:57] <Logan_> you just did
[22:57] <Ironholds> Logan_: don't make me downvote that comment! ;)
[22:57] * Logan_ hides
[22:58] <tommorris> Ironholds: yes, evening is good for me
[22:58] <Ironholds> okay, so the initial plan for this involved us getting a tight-knit workgroup of people with great ideas together in December-ish
[22:58] <Ironholds> unfortunately there was something we didn't consider
[22:58] <Ironholds> and that is that YOU lot are a tight-knit group of people with great ideas :P
[22:58] <fabriceflorin> Haha! (> don't make me downvote that comment!)
[22:58] * jsoby (~Jhs4@wikimedia/jhs) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[22:58] * BarkingFish (~BarkingIn@openglobe/BarkingFish) has left #wikimedia-office ("*.fish *.filleted")
[22:58] * brion (~brion@wikipedia/pdpc.professional.brion) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[22:58] <Ironholds> so, what I want to know is - would you guys find it interesting if we had a sort of sub-group for more regular contact and chats, or maybe a weekly skype call or something?
[22:59] <Ironholds> and if you like the idea; anyone want to participate?
[22:59] * jsoby (~Jhs4@wikimedia/jhs) has joined #wikimedia-office
[23:00] * D1000|Away is now known as Demiurge1000
[23:00] <Ironholds> we don't really see the need at the moment, but if anyone wants to...?
[23:00] * brion (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #wikimedia-office
[23:00] * brion (~email@example.com) Quit (Changing host)
[23:00] * brion (~brion@wikipedia/pdpc.professional.brion) has joined #wikimedia-office
[23:01] <Ironholds> I'll take that as a no :P
[23:03] <fabriceflorin> Thanks, everyone, it's been great catching up and getting your advice about all this! Truly invaluable ...
[23:03] <Ironholds> (I think that's his way of saying he has to go :P)
[23:04] * vigorous_afk (~v_a@wikimedia/vigorous-action) has joined #wikimedia-office
[23:04] * Prodego (~Prodego@wikipedia/Prodego) has joined #wikimedia-office
[23:06] <Ironholds> okay, so we'll break this up now - fabriceflorin has a busy day ahead of him :)
[23:07] <Ironholds> a reminder that there's no chat next week, but we'll talk the following thursday on 1 December
[23:07] <Ironholds> at 19:00 UTC :)
[23:07] * vigorous_af_ (~v_a@wikimedia/vigorous-action) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[23:07] <Ironholds> tommorris, jps, Logan_, thank you so much for your contributions so far - I've logged them all (spooky!) and will forward them to the devs in this regular roundup email I do.
[23:08] <Logan_> >.>
[23:08] <Ironholds> if any of you have general questions or suggestions, I'll be staying around for a bit afterwards :)
[23:08] <fabriceflorin> Hope to speak to you guys again on Dec. 1st. Thanks again for all your great insights -- and for keeping us honest ;o)
[23:08] <jps> Ironholds, thank you for the excellent prototype forms! They are so much better than the stars
[23:08] <Ironholds> jps: thank fabriceflorin, not me! I just do the talking :P
[23:09] <jps> fabriceflorin: thank you too except for http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFT-v5-Feedback-Form-Option3-Mockup-11-18.png people game the stars
[23:10] <jps> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFT-v5-Feedback-Form-Option2-Mockup-All-Hilites-11-18.png is beauiful
[23:10] <fabriceflorin> No worries, jps, I sincerely doubt that Option 3 will make it -- but we are A/B testing it just to be sure.
[23:11] <jps> I'm still in favor of asking people whether they found what they were looking for and allowing both yes, no, both, or neither in addition to everything in http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AFT-v5-Feedback-Form-Option2-Mockup-All-Hilites-11-18.png in an ideal world
[23:12] <jps> also http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Article-Feedback-Page-Mockup-AdminTools-11-18.png looks like a great admin interface
[23:12] <SpitfireWP> What if they just say they still haven't found what they're looking for?
[23:13] <jps> EXCEPT for the embedded scroll bar! :) seriously use "More" links to expand instead of embedded scroll bars or they will never render on small mobiles
[23:13] <Ironholds> jps: yeah; the idea is to test phrasing and the like after we've seen what actual format works the best :)
[23:13] <jps> cool
[23:13] <Ironholds> and I agree, I loathe scroll bars
[23:14] <Ironholds> SpitfireWP: what do you mean?
[23:14] <SpitfireWP> Sorry.
[23:14] <Ironholds> okay, guys, one moment
[23:14] <Ironholds> I have another session at 3am my time
[23:14] <Ironholds> I need coffeeeee :D
[23:14] <Ironholds> back in two mins
[23:14] <SpitfireWP> U2 song. I... I don't know what came over me. *hangs head in shame*
[23:16] * _jem_ is now known as nick_
[23:16] * nick_ is now known as _jem_
[23:18] <Ironholds> okay, guys, back :)
[23:18] <Ironholds> anyone have some final questions for me to pass on?
[23:18] <Ironholds> SpitfireWP: and they better not involve a damn joshua tree :P
[23:19] <SpitfireWP> lol
[23:19] <jps> Is living well really the best revenge?
[23:19] <jps> oh sorry maybe that one isn't on topic
[23:19] <jps> nope sorry I'm out
[23:19] * jps (4306a383@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.8.131.52) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[23:19] <Ironholds> jps: that's cool :). Logan_, tommorris?
[23:20] <Logan_> that's it for me, I think
[23:20] <tommorris> Ironholds: can't think of anything
[23:21] <Ironholds> okay, cool :). In that case, I'll bow out - great speaking to all of you! Chat to you again in two weeks :)
Session Close: Fri Nov 18 23:21:25 2011