IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-05-29 (en)

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[18:30:18] <Lydia_WMDE> hey folks :)
[18:30:25] <Lydia_WMDE> who's here for the office hour?
[18:30:44] <jem-> Hey, Lydia_WMDE :) I'm just arriving
[18:30:45] <Denny_WMDE1> hey all!
[18:30:47] <Denny_WMDE1> me :)
[18:30:51] <chrismcmahon> I am, with a question for later
[18:30:57] -*- hoo as well :P
[18:30:58] <Lydia_WMDE> jem-: perfect timing then :D
[18:31:06] <Lydia_WMDE> awesome
[18:31:14] <jem-> For sure :)
[18:31:18] <omtsh> hallo :)
[18:31:38] <Lydia_WMDE> ok for those who've not been at one of the office hours before: we usually collect a bunch of questions at the beginning and then go through them
[18:31:52] <Lydia_WMDE> so whatever question you have please let us know
[18:31:54] <Lydia_WMDE> i'll make a list
[18:32:05] <Lydia_WMDE> i already got 2 by email
[18:32:33] <Katie_WMDE> rounding people up :)
[18:32:38] <Lydia_WMDE> hehe
[18:32:59] <maxOCLC> Ok, this is Max with OCLC, I wanted to know more about how partnering would work with Wikidata, what's the procedure to and protocol in merging large datasets into it
[18:33:07] <Lydia_WMDE> ok
[18:33:11] <Lydia_WMDE> hi Max!
[18:33:15] <maxOCLC> Hi
[18:33:16] <Katie_WMDE> hi max
[18:33:47] <Denny_WMDE1> hi max :) i am right now in the process of answering your email, but i am happy to have it here in discussion instead. great! :)
[18:33:50] <Lydia_WMDE> anything else or should we start with what i have by email and Max's question?
[18:34:38] <Lydia_WMDE> ok then let's start with the 2 questions i got from brendan by email
[18:34:42] <Lydia_WMDE> the first one is: I filed a bug I found on the demo repo ( which seems to be resolved in the current master branch. Can we have the demo system use the master branch from now on and is it possible for anyone to update the demo periodically to keep up with the master branch? I could do it, given the necessary permissions. I keep my own local working copy up-to-date regularly.
[18:35:16] <chrismcmahon> Lydia_WMDE: my question: the WikidataRepo extension seems to have started using watir-webdriver for automated UI tests. I think they lifted the code from my github account. I'm a little concerned because there is some bad code in there I am saving for a new-hire technical evaluation. I'd like to know more about these tests, and if I can help refactor them.
[18:35:46] <Lydia_WMDE> chrismcmahon: ok - thx - queued
[18:36:42] <Amgine> <awaits answers>
[18:36:50] <Lydia_WMDE> denny is typing :D
[18:37:03] <Denny_WMDE1> Thanks Brendan for the question. The trouble is that for the repo we need some changes to the core that are not yet reviewed and merged into master. As soon as that is the case — as it is, e.g., for the client — we will keep up with the current master. So, this can be done fastest by helping us getting through review quickly for our patches to master :)
[18:37:48] <Denny_WMDE1> since brendan is not here, i assume the question answered. or does anyone want to follow up?
[18:37:50] -*- Daniel_WMDE_ wibbles in
[18:37:58] <Lydia_WMDE> Daniel_WMDE_: perfect timing :D
[18:38:02] <Lydia_WMDE> your question is next
[18:38:11] <Lydia_WMDE> Brendan asks: "I see Daniel now allows aliases to be displayed for a data item. I am just curious about how we will use these aliases to access the data item. Maybe he could explain if possible?"
[18:38:57] <Lydia_WMDE> Daniel_WMDE_: sorry - wrong Daniel :D
[18:39:28] <Lydia_WMDE> Denny will answer
[18:39:50] <Daniel_WMDE_> Lydia_WMDE, Denny_WMDE1: who's brendan?
[18:40:33] <Lydia_WMDE> Daniel_WMDE_: Brendan Wyse
[18:40:44] <Lydia_WMDE> emailed me because he can't attend
[18:40:53] <Daniel_WMDE_> ah. don't know them
[18:40:56] <Denny_WMDE1> The aliases are used for retrieval of an item. So if you have a person like Stephen King, who may also go as Richard Bachman, you want to be able to retrieve the item with both names. Or think "Obama" for "Barack Obama" etc.
[18:41:11] <Daniel_WMDE_> Denny_WMDE1: errr....
[18:41:24] <Denny_WMDE1> Disagree? :)
[18:41:24] <Daniel_WMDE_> please let us be very ürecise about what we mean be "retrieve" here
[18:41:42] <Daniel_WMDE_> Link to? Use as a data item in an info box?
[18:41:50] <Daniel_WMDE_> Search?...
[18:42:26] <Daniel_WMDE_> Denny_WMDE1: aliasses and labels are not unique. In some contexts, unique identifiers are necessary. ALiases and labels can not be used there
[18:42:28] <Daniel_WMDE_> this is the case e.g. for including data on pages
[18:42:53] <Daniel_WMDE_> We should be very precise about when and where aliases are allowed for retrieval.
[18:43:02] <Denny_WMDE1> when selecting an item, typing something in the widget where you choose the item, will display you items to choose from. aliases allow you to find an item although it goes under a different label.
[18:43:15] <Daniel_WMDE_> I think they should *never* be used to *Address* an item. I'd prefer to not even allow "prettya" links using labels or aliasses
[18:43:28] <Daniel_WMDE_> Denny_WMDE1: yes, i agree with that :)
[18:43:51] <Daniel_WMDE_> Denny_WMDE1: we can also have a page that lists all items with a given name as label or alias (auto-disambiguation)
[18:43:57] <saper> what's the unique identifier then?
[18:44:09] <Amgine> wss
[18:44:19] <Daniel_WMDE_> i think we should make it clear that aliasses (and also labels and descriptions) are aids for *finding* items
[18:44:27] <Daniel_WMDE_> they can not however be used to *address* items
[18:44:34] <Denny_WMDE1> saper: just an id without further meaning
[18:44:47] <Daniel_WMDE_> saper: there is a canonical identifier (somthing numeric, like q256773)
[18:44:55] <Denny_WMDE1> yes
[18:44:57] <Lydia_WMDE> saper: if you look at the demo helium's for example is q20
[18:45:05] <saper> is it taken from the database or assigned by the user?
[18:45:07] <Lydia_WMDE> you can see it in the url
[18:45:11] <Daniel_WMDE_> saper: and you can address an item by the respectiv wiki page (e.g. "item for en/Germany")
[18:45:26] <Denny_WMDE1> saper: assigned by the system, not by the user.
[18:45:30] <Daniel_WMDE_> saper: the canonical ids are from the database. they never change.
[18:45:34] <saper> thx
[18:45:49] <Denny_WMDE1> follow up questions? or next?
[18:46:00] <Daniel_WMDE_> the unique (but not necessarily permanent) link-based identifiers can be changed by users, with sopme constraints (like uniqueness)
[18:46:21] <saper> Lydia_WMDE: q20 is calcium? and q2 is Helium, right?
[18:46:37] <Lydia_WMDE> saper: oh yeah right
[18:46:38] <Amgine> <hiss>
[18:46:54] <Lydia_WMDE> Amgine: want to say something? :D
[18:47:13] <Amgine> terrible puns! (which I like)
[18:47:18] <Lydia_WMDE> next question is: [18:32:59] <maxOCLC> Ok, this is Max with OCLC, I wanted to know more about how partnering would work with Wikidata, what's the procedure to and protocol in merging large datasets into it
[18:47:19] <Lydia_WMDE> hehe
[18:47:58] <Denny_WMDE1> maxOCLC: that is a very hard question, and I have to excuse myself for a lengthy answer.
[18:48:14] <maxOCLC> By all means...
[18:48:53] <Denny_WMDE1> there is a clear separation between what we do in developing the software for wikidata, and what the community will do in developing the content
[18:49:29] <Denny_WMDE1> so as the software developers, we do not decide which content partnerships will happen. this is up to the community.
[18:49:35] <Denny_WMDE1> the issue is, the community does not exist yet
[18:49:47] <Denny_WMDE1> so i cannot point you anywhere yet to take this question to.
[18:50:05] <Denny_WMDE1> at the same time, i am extremely excited about the prospect of forming a content partnership with oclc, obviously
[18:50:17] <Denny_WMDE1> and i would hate to let that possibility pass.
[18:50:18] <maxOCLC> How would you recommend starting such a community?
[18:50:36] <Denny_WMDE1> well, i guess, the first thing is to actually deploy and launch the website
[18:50:49] <maxOCLC> That's a good point.
[18:50:55] <maxOCLC> What tools will there be for incorporating large data?
[18:50:55] <Denny_WMDE1> before that the community will not really exist, i am afraid. it remains purely theoretical.
[18:50:57] <Lydia_WMDE> maxOCLC: it's starting to form but it'll take some time and definitely launch as Denny_WMDE1 said
[18:51:24] <Denny_WMDE1> tools for incorporating large data: data can be uploaded via our API to the system
[18:51:39] <Denny_WMDE1> this API does not exist yet
[18:51:50] <maxOCLC> I see
[18:51:50] <Denny_WMDE1> but we will definitively have one
[18:51:53] <Daniel_WMDE_> maxOCLC: bulk import of large datasets is generally problematic, for the same reason it is problematic on wikipedia: it swamps the community review process
[18:52:00] <Denny_WMDE1> exactly
[18:52:16] <maxOCLC> but data is much different
[18:52:23] <Daniel_WMDE_> is it?
[18:52:24] <maxOCLC> than community review on wikipedia
[18:52:24] <Daniel_WMDE_> how?
[18:52:26] <Denny_WMDE1> a minimum solution would be to ensure that our datasets are linked to each other
[18:52:35] <Amgine> Follow-on/related: Will the data be editable via UI?
[18:52:40] <maxOCLC> because it's generally order of magnitude greater
[18:52:44] <Denny_WMDE1> i.e. OCLC has ids for their items of interests, works, authors i guess, etc.
[18:52:56] <Daniel_WMDE_> Amgine: definitly!
[18:53:05] <maxOCLC> i mean you have to review it as a single set than piece-by-piece - that's impossiblwe
[18:53:09] <Denny_WMDE1> we should ensure that when creating items in Wikidata, we can link to OCLC and say "hey, our q12345, that is the same as 28348 in OCLC"
[18:53:15] <Daniel_WMDE_> maxOCLC: so a working community review process is even more important.
[18:53:22] <Denny_WMDE1> so tools can automatically merging the data when using it
[18:53:39] <Daniel_WMDE_> maxOCLC: because a bulk review is impossible, the community will probably not accept bulk import.
[18:53:50] <Denny_WMDE1> another thing is that you have to consider if the licenses of the data are actually compatible
[18:54:00] <Daniel_WMDE_> Denny_WMDE1: "tools" yes, but probably not wikipedia
[18:54:18] <maxOCLC> i looked into that, wikidata hasn't decided yet, but we are using an open-license ODC-BY
[18:54:28] <Amgine> Daniel_WMDE_: why is bulk review not possible? surely automated tests can be written to satisfy most community standards, data uniqueness, etc?
[18:55:14] <maxOCLC> if there is no scalable review, that makes things very problematic. it's a new challenge and that's probably something that should be discussed in the new community when it's formed
[18:55:16] -*- Katie_WMDE notes that bulk data imports are controversial and can be problematic on openstreetmap (but sometimes good)
[18:55:31] <Daniel_WMDE_> Amgine: that could help to weed out obvious crap, but will it be sufficient? I don't know, iut will be up to the local coimmunity
[18:55:31] <Katie_WMDE> don't know what the community will decide for wikidata
[18:55:32] <Denny_WMDE1> a priority on Wikidata is to create a healthy community — not to create the biggest possible dataset.
[18:55:57] <Denny_WMDE1> but as said, we should definitively ensure that our datasets are linked!
[18:56:04] <Daniel_WMDE_> Katie_WMDE: interesting point. OSM's experience with this will be very important to that discussion
[18:56:28] <maxOCLC> I think that will defitiely be possible, as we will both have robust APIs for our data
[18:56:32] <Katie_WMDE> Daniel_WMDE_: it's easy to import data, do it badly and then the community gets to clean up the mess
[18:56:41] <Denny_WMDE1> how long are you staiyng with OCLC, maxOCLC?
[18:56:42] <Katie_WMDE> and it's hard to keep data updated and synced
[18:56:45] <Denny_WMDE1> will you be at wikimania?
[18:56:48] <Amgine> Daniel_WMDE_: Wiktionary uses an automated review process for iterative term conjugations. It's one method of implementing the bulk review?
[18:56:53] <Daniel_WMDE_> maxOCLC: i think it's too early to really discuss your question. do you think there is anything we should be doing from the technical perspective?
[18:56:55] <Katie_WMDE> but in some cases it's been helpful
[18:57:03] <maxOCLC> I will be at Wikimania, and I'll be with OCLC until end of August.
[18:57:26] <Denny_WMDE1> can we schedule to talk during Wikimania?
[18:57:35] <Daniel_WMDE_> Amgine: yes, *some* things can be reviewed automatically. Which is very helpful. I don't know if that would be sufficient for what maxOCLC wants to import.
[18:57:50] <maxOCLC> denny: That sounds great, we should talk at Wikimania
[18:58:09] <Denny_WMDE1> and before that, as Daniel_WMDE_ says, it would be relevant to figure out if there are technical requirements already relevant for our current work
[18:58:13] <maxOCLC> daniel: from a technical perspective I suppose I have to see the plan for the APIs, can you link it?
[18:58:23] <Amgine> The Wiktionary model requires volunteers to examine and approve entry creations; it is built to streamline thousands of entries.
[18:58:32] <Katie_WMDE>
[18:58:41] <Katie_WMDE> all the notes and such are there
[18:59:01] <Denny_WMDE1> Amgine: how are the unreviewed terms saved in Wiktionary? MediaWiki seems to be notoriously bad in implementing workflows...
[18:59:21] <Daniel_WMDE_> maxOCLC:
[18:59:23] <Denny_WMDE1> maxOCLC: the API for phase II is not developed yet, which would be the one relevant for you. you will actually not find it yet
[18:59:29] <saper> Denny_WMDE1: come on, we have FlaggedRevs :P
[18:59:31] <Daniel_WMDE_> Katie_WMDE: is there a link to there?
[18:59:48] <Denny_WMDE1> saper: I know, but is this how it is used for conjugations in Wiktionary?
[18:59:53] <Amgine> It is. The terms are saved as a page of links, with a js tool using the url to create the article entry for review.
[18:59:56] <Daniel_WMDE_> ah, and what Denny_WMDE1 said
[19:00:40] <Katie_WMDE> Daniel_WMDE_: we have but it needs to be updated and linked to mediawiki wiki
[19:00:52] <Denny_WMDE1> Amgine: not sure I fully understand, but sounds interesting. needs to check that.
[19:01:07] <Denny_WMDE1> maxOCLC: sorry, I hope the answers are not too frustrating
[19:01:24] <Denny_WMDE1> I sure want us to collaborate, it is just we are in a very early state, and we cannot promise too much yet
[19:01:24] <Lydia_WMDE> Katie_WMDE: Daniel_WMDE_: i'll put that on my todo to nag someone about it
[19:01:55] <Daniel_WMDE_> Lydia_WMDE: please. the api descriptions on meta and should be in sync and interlinked
[19:02:07] <Denny_WMDE1> and we are very careful about data donations for now. if anyone remembers the rambot on Wikipedia, you know why :)
[19:02:10] <Katie_WMDE> maxOCLC: perhaps feedback on the technical design would be useful
[19:02:24] <maxOCLC> denny: no they are not too frustrating. I am getting a better feel for where development is right now. I would like to be part of the new community to give input on the persepctive of partner institutions
[19:02:52] <maxOCLC> katie: I will review the API notes and give input on what is needed from the OCLC side
[19:02:56] <Denny_WMDE1> maxOCLC: thank you! yes, i am sure looking forward to see the community forming. I am afraid this will need a few more months, though
[19:03:27] <Denny_WMDE1> and thank you very much for this suggestion for collaboration! :) i was thrilled to hear about it
[19:03:40] -*- Katie_WMDE predicts licensing will be a bit issue with any imports
[19:03:42] <Lydia_WMDE> followup questions about this? or should we move to the next one?
[19:03:47] <maxOCLC> great, well that answers my questions. I have some time now to review techinical details and I'll check back in soon.
[19:03:52] <Katie_WMDE> big issue
[19:04:10] <Lydia_WMDE> maxOCLC: great :) the mailing list and this channel are always open
[19:04:21] <Lydia_WMDE> next questions: [18:35:16] <chrismcmahon> Lydia_WMDE: my question: the WikidataRepo extension seems to have started using watir-webdriver for automated UI tests. I think they lifted the code from my github account. I'm a little concerned because there is some bad code in there I am saving for a new-hire technical evaluation. I'd like to know more about these tests, and if I can help refactor them.
[19:04:56] <Denny_WMDE1> uh, chrismcmahon, I am afraid I need to send this answer to the people in the team who actually did that. I am very sorry I cannot answer that myself...
[19:05:08] <chrismcmahon> hi :) I just noticed the checkin this morning, from Jens Ohlig and Tobias Gritschacher,n,z
[19:05:09] <Denny_WMDE1> anyone here who can? Daniel_WMDE_, Danwe_WMDE?
[19:05:35] <Denny_WMDE1> yes, both Jens and Tobias have gone home already
[19:05:42] <Denny_WMDE1> we can ask them tomorrow and send them your question
[19:05:49] <Denny_WMDE1> would you ping an email to Lydia?
[19:05:59] <Lydia_WMDE>
[19:05:59] <Denny_WMDE1> then we can continue this discussion
[19:06:08] <chrismcmahon> thank you, I will
[19:06:20] <Denny_WMDE1> thanks :) i am sorry i cannot answer that myself
[19:06:31] <Katie_WMDE> chrismcmahon: coming to the hackathon?
[19:06:52] <Lydia_WMDE> ok last question i have then: [18:57:57] <saper> My question: Suppose I have a pretty good, normalized SQL database like registry of monuments in my country ( or good database of species. All are already imported into MySQL tables. Can I use wikidata to refer to those data sets on my own MediaWiki installation? How would that done? If so, could similar process be applied to WMF wikis?
[19:06:55] <chrismcmahon> managing UI tests is non-trivial, and since this seems to be my framework, I'd like to help do it well :)
[19:07:06] <Katie_WMDE> chrismcmahon: indeed
[19:07:11] <chrismcmahon> Katie_WMDE: unfortunately no, I am moving house instead
[19:07:18] <Katie_WMDE> chrismcmahon: sad :(
[19:07:22] <Denny_WMDE1> chrismcmahon: thank you very much for that offer :) we will sure come back to you about this!
[19:07:54] <chrismcmahon> Denny_WMDE1: these sorts of tests are a high priority for the new WMF QA effort
[19:07:58] <Katie_WMDE> we can surely follow up later and think your input on tests will be quite helpful
[19:08:02] <Denny_WMDE1> dito for us
[19:08:16] <Denny_WMDE1> saper: now to your question
[19:08:20] <Daniel_WMDE_> Lydia_WMDE: in reply to saper: no, that'S not what wikidata is for. use the DataTransclusion extension instead.
[19:08:41] <Denny_WMDE1> i would have phrased it differently, but as Daniel_WMDE_ says :)
[19:09:07] <Lydia_WMDE> ok that is all the questions i have and we have about 20 minutes left
[19:09:16] <Lydia_WMDE> any more questions or things to doscuss?
[19:09:18] <Denny_WMDE1> saper: follow up questions?
[19:09:23] <Lydia_WMDE> how did you like the demo system so far?
[19:09:45] <Denny_WMDE1> saper: my suggestion would be to import the data into Wikidata, and then use it directly from there.
[19:09:51] <Daniel_WMDE_> Lydia_WMDE re saper: the main reason being that wikidata has a very specific and complex data model. superimposing this on a "normal" relational database would be a pain and quite useless
[19:10:19] <Daniel_WMDE_> Denny_WMDE1: but "bulk imports are problematic" :)
[19:10:28] <Lydia_WMDE> ;-)
[19:10:32] <Denny_WMDE1> exactly
[19:10:37] <Daniel_WMDE_> also, wikidata's features are pretty useless for single-source simple-value bulk data
[19:10:50] <Denny_WMDE1> but less problematic than having an external data table that we use instead :)
[19:10:52] <Daniel_WMDE_> it just makes things complex and slow
[19:10:53] <Denny_WMDE1> true
[19:11:04] <Denny_WMDE1> we have history, references, qualifiers, etc.
[19:11:08] <Daniel_WMDE_> if you have data that fites the relational model nicely, wikidata is probably not the best way to manage it :)(
[19:11:21] <Denny_WMDE1> most of which are probably not available in the data table that one might already have
[19:11:28] <Denny_WMDE1> good point :)
[19:12:10] <Denny_WMDE1> i have the feeling we are making people very unhappy with our answers today
[19:12:17] -*- Lydia_WMDE sobs silently in her corner because no-one answered her question about how they liked the demo system :/
[19:12:20] <Lydia_WMDE> ;-)
[19:12:40] <jem-> Lydia_WMDE: please don't :)
[19:12:46] -*- hoo liked it very much, although he got reverted fast
[19:13:01] <Lydia_WMDE> jem-: ok - i'll try ;-)
[19:13:04] <Daniel_WMDE_> hoo: fast revert -> working community :)
[19:13:07] <Denny_WMDE1> we need history support very soon :)
[19:13:07] <Lydia_WMDE> hoo: lol - what did you do?
[19:13:08] <hoo> just wanted to try malicious edits :P
[19:13:15] <Denny_WMDE1> hehe
[19:13:16] <jem-> I must confess I had little time, but things look good
[19:13:16] <Lydia_WMDE> excellent
[19:13:17] <Katie_WMDE> it worked! :)
[19:13:23] <hoo> Lydia_WMDE: Changed a iw-link towards my user page on that wiki
[19:13:30] <Lydia_WMDE> ah ok
[19:13:36] <Lydia_WMDE> well cool to see this worked
[19:13:56] <jem-> I was going to comment about diffs, in fact
[19:14:12] <Daniel_WMDE_> Denny_WMDE1: which rfeminds me - we need to put revert and rollback on the list for ui testing
[19:14:18] <Denny_WMDE1> jem-: yes, very important to have them sooner than later
[19:14:28] <Denny_WMDE1> Daniel_WMDE_: good point.
[19:14:45] <Daniel_WMDE_> jem-: nice diffs are comming up, algorithem is already in place, rendering code pending
[19:14:56] <jem-> Perfect then
[19:15:15] <Daniel_WMDE_> Lydia_WMDE: anything spifically for me?
[19:15:17] <Denny_WMDE1> no deployment without working history and diffs obviously
[19:15:18] <Daniel_WMDE_> i need to fix dinner now
[19:15:28] <Denny_WMDE1> no, we are through with questions
[19:15:34] <Daniel_WMDE_> good then
[19:15:37] <Lydia_WMDE> Daniel_WMDE_: nope - go and have fun with the little ones :D
[19:15:40] <Denny_WMDE1> we could either go into open discussion, or close early
[19:15:41] <Daniel_WMDE_> see you tomorrow!
[19:15:45] <Denny_WMDE1> cu!
[19:15:49] <Lydia_WMDE> cu!
[19:15:50] <fossa> surprsingly full here
[19:16:00] <Denny_WMDE1> but little questions :)
[19:16:41] <fossa> I guess that's because nobody is really interested in it, but it's not the worst project
[19:16:59] <Lydia_WMDE> heh we actually had a few questions and quite some interest ;-)
[19:17:16] <Lydia_WMDE> alright
[19:17:18] <Lydia_WMDE> more questions?
[19:18:35] <Denny_WMDE1> well, i am interested in it :)
[19:18:42] <Denny_WMDE1> and i hope you do not want to imply i am nobody?
[19:18:43] <fossa> so how is this gonna be different from a simple data base?
[19:18:58] -*- jem- is also interested, for sure
[19:19:05] <Denny_WMDE1> we have two! :)
[19:19:11] <Lydia_WMDE> make that three ;-)
[19:19:13] <Lydia_WMDE> but anyway
[19:19:27] <fossa> nobody was obviously an exaggaration, but it's nothing the community is phased by
[19:20:00] -*- saper didn't thank for the answer - that helps!
[19:20:20] <Lydia_WMDE> saper: great :)
[19:20:32] <snaevar> In the last office hour (the english one), regarding phase-1 interlanguage links, Denny mentioned that the team have a bit of trouble with interlanguage links on other namespaces than the main one. What progress has been made since then?
[19:20:41] <Denny_WMDE1> fossa: if that is how you perceive it, then so be it. i have a different impression. but i guess we will not figure out until we actually launch and a bit later
[19:21:40] <fossa> Denny_WMDE1: once the project will have some tangibles, It#ll change, I agree, but so far, it's oblivious to the communities
[19:21:45] <Denny_WMDE1> fossa: it is different from a simple db in that it is wikilike-editable, and in that we take references for data items much stronger into account. also we have a flexible schema, which dbs in general do not offer.
[19:22:05] <Denny_WMDE1> fossa: i agree. it is too early to be material to the communities right now
[19:22:08] <saper> Lydia_WMDE: even if it makes somebody unhappy, it's good to know what it is and not to try to push it in some other direction.
[19:22:24] <Lydia_WMDE> saper: yes indeed
[19:22:25] <Denny_WMDE1> fossa: this is why we are doing more story boards and similar, to make it more tangible
[19:22:34] <Denny_WMDE1> fossa: and that is why we launched the demo
[19:22:41] <Denny_WMDE1> fossa: i hope this improves the situation
[19:22:52] <Denny_WMDE1> snaevar: to your question.
[19:23:09] <Denny_WMDE1> snaevar: no we didn't yet. it kind of works now, but it is still buggy.
[19:23:18] <Denny_WMDE1> in short: we are working on it still
[19:23:57] <snaevar> ok
[19:24:06] <jem-> It will be important to notify about Wikidata when the site is launched to all the existing projects, so we can build up a large and diverse community
[19:24:22] <Denny_WMDE1> snaevar: we want to have that fixed for the wikimania demo, obviously.
[19:24:28] <jem-> But for sure you're aware of that :)
[19:24:38] <Denny_WMDE1> jem-: absolutely agreeing here :9
[19:25:25] <Lydia_WMDE> 5 minutes left
[19:25:59] <Denny_WMDE1> i also think that the Wikidata community will not solely recruit their editors from the existing projects, but also attract further editors beyond that
[19:26:03] <fossa> Denny_WMDE1: so, wiki-editable simply means it has a wiki-interface?
[19:26:16] <jem-> And in fact the small languages could benefit from it even more than big ones, as I think it has been commented
[19:26:30] -*- fossa is sorry for the time lags, feeding an ourang-utan, err, infant
[19:26:35] <Denny_WMDE1> fossa: basically yes. editable through a wiki, and in the wiki way
[19:26:59] <Katie_WMDE> fossa: it has revision history, anyone can edit, etc.
[19:27:05] <Denny_WMDE1> jem-: yes, i think that too. but don't tell the German Wikipedia that, since the German chapter is hosting the development… (whispering)
[19:27:31] <jem-> Ok, I won't tell them :)
[19:28:21] <Denny_WMDE1> in seriousness, i expect it to help freeing editor attention all over the place
[19:28:42] <Denny_WMDE1> the general goal is to decrease maintenance costs over the wikipedia, and at the same time increase quality and consisteny
[19:28:48] <hoo> How is it going to adminstrated, btw?
[19:28:56] <jem-> For sure
[19:28:57] <Denny_WMDE1> if we manage to pull that off, i will be happy :)
[19:29:21] <Denny_WMDE1> hoo: how you mean? as a wiki. with its own community within the wikimedia movement. not sure i understand the question
[19:29:31] <jem-> And then we will think how could we deal with data in the past, as we do now with images (at least in
[19:29:44] <Denny_WMDE1> :) i hope so
[19:29:55] <hoo> Denny_WMDE1: I mean, with local sysops elect as on meta or commons?
[19:29:59] <hoo> * elected
[19:30:09] <Denny_WMDE1> yes, i guess so
[19:30:22] <Denny_WMDE1> as on any other project too
[19:30:26] <jem-> It should be that way, yes
[19:31:07] <jem-> Although probably a few sysops should be designated from "somewhere" in order to start out
[19:31:15] <Denny_WMDE1> wikidata will be as autonomous as the other wikimedia projects, as common is, as meta is, as the individual wikipedias are
[19:32:03] <Denny_WMDE1> jem-: as far as i understand the community process on smaller wikimedia projects — and having kicked off hr.wikipedia back in the days — such a designation is not necessary
[19:32:32] <Denny_WMDE1> but stewards will eventually make someone to a bureacrat if an appropriate community decision has taken place
[19:32:52] <Denny_WMDE1> and then the project becomes further autonomous and can decide on their own admin processes etc.
[19:33:07] <Lydia_WMDE> blangguth: hi! :D didn't notice you hang around here too now - good to see you!
[19:33:14] <Lydia_WMDE> alright folks - any more pressing questions? we've reached the end of our office hour
[19:33:40] <jem-> Ok, that makes sense, as long as a steward is available to start
[19:33:52] <Denny_WMDE1> obviously my last answers works on the assumption that these things haven't changed too much in the last 8 years… :D
[19:34:31] <jem-> Lydia_WMDE: not from me for the moment
[19:34:42] <Lydia_WMDE> well then thanks so much for joining everyone! :)
[19:34:50] <Lydia_WMDE> there will be another office hour in german tomorrow
[19:34:52] <Lydia_WMDE> same time
[19:34:57] <Denny_WMDE1> same place
[19:35:06] <Lydia_WMDE> and we'll announce the next office hours after that soon
[19:35:23] -*- jem- didn't actually join but understands :)
[19:35:28] <Lydia_WMDE> i will post logs either later today or tomorrow
[19:35:38] <Denny_WMDE1> cheers everyone! enjoy the rest of your day or night, whatever is appropriate :)