IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-09-05

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[09:51:17] <Lydia_WMDE> heya folks :)
[09:51:24] <Lydia_WMDE> wikidata office hour in 10 minutes
[10:00:32] -*- Lydia_WMDE waves
[10:00:40] <Lydia_WMDE> who's here for the wikidata office hour?
[10:01:31] <shimgray> me!
[10:01:42] <Denny_WMDE> hi all
[10:01:44] <shimgray> well, the next half hour anyway.
[10:01:46] <Lydia_WMDE> hi shimgray!
[10:02:05] <Lydia_WMDE> do you have a question about wikidata?
[10:04:03] <shimgray> I'm wondering about how and when you're planning to draw in data from WP articles
[10:04:04] <shimgray> is the idea to build a framework and then have people fill it in by hand, or is it going to be automatically populated with (eg) persondata?
[10:04:28] <Lydia_WMDE> both
[10:04:42] <Lydia_WMDE> we'd love if especially at the beginning it happens by hand
[10:04:52] <Lydia_WMDE> but it will be possible to write bots for it too
[10:05:09] <Lydia_WMDE> we're a bit warry of doing large bulk imports this way at the beginning
[10:05:27] <Lydia_WMDE> the community needs to grow obviously to handle and maintain the data that is in wikidata in the future
[10:05:46] <Denny_WMDE> to clarify, we, as the development team, will not upload any data. we will merely provide interfaces and help to others to do so.
[10:07:25] <shimgray> *nods*
[10:07:40] <YairRand> here's a question: is wikidata intended to exist as a standalone project outside of whatever use it might have supplying wm projects with data?
[10:08:08] <YairRand> will it have data that's not going to be used by any wikimedia project?
[10:08:20] <shimgray> I'm thinking particularly about identifiers, here
[10:08:20] <shimgray> we're putting VIAF identifiers into enwiki (catching up to de!) and frwiki is working on a similar plan
[10:08:31] <Lydia_WMDE> it can have such data, yes
[10:08:36] <shimgray> hopefully we'll be able to get ISNIs in later... but all these are very basic data, there's no "source" etc.
[10:08:39] <Lydia_WMDE> it is up to the community to decide on it
[10:09:04] <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: as Lydia_WMDE says. I expect it to have a similar development as commons
[10:09:15] <Denny_WMDE> First, to serve the other projects, and then to grow beyond that
[10:09:28] <YairRand> so, "educational content" as the starting point?
[10:10:03] <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: I am sure that the community will come up with rules for what kind of data they want and do not want inside
[10:11:00] <Denny_WMDE> let's say, GameStats for World of Warcraft classes might be considered out of scope, whereas blackboard quotes for simpson episodes might be considered in-scope
[10:11:06] <Denny_WMDE> i am just guessing here, obviously
[10:11:12] <Denny_WMDE> it might very well be the other way around
[10:11:22] <YairRand> I see
[10:12:15] <Denny_WMDE> my assumption is if there is a sufficient livid community for a specific area, that they will either be able to set up rules for that area — like the Wikipedia wikiprojects — or they will take the software and build their own wikidata site
[10:12:39] <Denny_WMDE> does this answer the question, YairRand?
[10:12:47] <YairRand> yes, thank you
[10:12:56] <Denny_WMDE> shimgray: yes, external identifiers are very interesting
[10:13:07] <Denny_WMDE> we are thinking about supporting them somehow more directly than other attributes
[10:13:18] <Denny_WMDE> as they, as you say, do not necessarily have a source
[10:13:25] <Denny_WMDE> but this is still open to discussion
[10:13:36] <Denny_WMDE> i think they should be treated just as normal properties
[10:13:45] <Denny_WMDE> as they *can* be sourced, and even change over time etc.
[10:13:54] <shimgray> oh, one other question: will Wikidata have static identifiers?
[10:14:10] <Denny_WMDE> shimgray: yes, if you mean "stable" with static
[10:14:16] <shimgray> yeah, especially with VIAF/ISNI which is designed to get multiply identified and then merged down
[10:14:21] <Denny_WMDE> i.e. every item will be assigned a non-changing ID
[10:17:50] <Lydia_WMDE> more questions?
[10:19:42] <YairRand> really minor issue: is the logo likely to be translated?
[10:19:56] <Denny_WMDE> absolutely
[10:20:04] <Denny_WMDE> just like the other project logos
[10:20:06] <YairRand> (ie, into hebrew morse code, etc)
[10:20:28] <Denny_WMDE> wait — AFAIK there is no such thing as hebrew morse code?
[10:21:32] <YairRand> https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%93_%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%A1#.D7.9E.D7.95.D7.A8.D7.A1_.D7.A2.D7.91.D7.A8.D7.99
[10:22:07] <Denny_WMDE> same result
[10:22:16] <Denny_WMDE> if i understand it correctly
[10:22:29] <Denny_WMDE> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_code_for_non-Latin_alphabets#Hebrew
[10:22:36] <Denny_WMDE> (my hebrew is a bit rusty)
[10:23:02] <Denny_WMDE> if i understand the link correctly, the code for wiki would be the same
[10:23:28] <Denny_WMDE> on the other hand, we will translate the text underneath the morse
[10:23:50] <YairRand> ויקי wouldn't have the same dashes and dots
[10:24:35] <Lydia_WMDE> YairRand: how do you think it should look like?
[10:24:53] -*- Lydia_WMDE doesn't speak hebrew unfortunately
[10:24:54] <YairRand> • / •• / --•- / ••
[10:25:29] -*- Lydia_WMDE wonders what aharoni thinks
[10:25:38] <Denny_WMDE> we have to think about it. we didn't know that, frankly
[10:25:45] <YairRand> I don't really speak hebrew either, but I know the word "wiki"
[10:26:11] <YairRand> and it's the only non-latin script I know, so I used it as an example
[10:26:34] <Denny_WMDE> so wiki is transliterated as EIQI
[10:26:48] <Denny_WMDE> interesting
[10:26:56] <Denny_WMDE> obviously something to think about
[10:27:07] <Denny_WMDE> personally i would prefer if we could stick with one logo
[10:27:12] <Denny_WMDE> and just change the text underneath
[10:27:33] <Denny_WMDE> in order to increase the recognitional power
[10:27:44] <Denny_WMDE> but that is not a decision i can make by myself
[10:27:49] <Denny_WMDE> or even the dev team
[10:28:10] <Denny_WMDE> i guess the answer is, that together with the community, we need to explore what the best solution is
[10:28:16] <jeblad_WMDE> Vükiped in Volapük
[10:28:16] <YairRand> some scripts would probably stay the same
[10:28:20] <Denny_WMDE> and investigate ramifications
[10:28:53] <YairRand> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wiki#Translations
[10:29:08] <Lydia_WMDE> thx YairRand
[10:30:50] <aharoni> oh sorry, was away. looking.
[10:31:30] <Denny_WMDE> wasn't it douglas adams? once someone understands something, whoosh it gets replaced by something looking almost indistinguishable from it but more complicated. i keep being reminded of that in wikidata development :)
[10:32:08] <aharoni> Oh, Hebrew Morse. I thought about it, actually.
[10:32:45] <aharoni> Yes, the logo should have localized versions in other versions of Morse. Mega-geekiness, but we love it.
[10:32:58] <YairRand> yay :)
[10:33:05] -*- shimgray must vanish (the train is pulling in)
[10:33:10] <shimgray> thanks all, and speak anon!
[10:33:14] <Denny_WMDE> would be easy to do. i have kind of a script for that
[10:33:14] <Lydia_WMDE> cya shimgray :)
[10:33:44] <aharoni> so, I'm bugging you often enough in email and other IRC channels, but I'll ask here anyway:
[10:34:10] <aharoni> what's the status of the scenarios for adding new articles to a group of interwiki-linked articles?
[10:34:30] <aharoni> we discussed it some time ago, but I haven't look at any updates since then.
[10:34:33] <Denny_WMDE> wait, i think we have that somwhere...
[10:35:39] <Denny_WMDE> here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Storyboard_for_linking_Wikipedia_articles_v0.2#Connect_Wikipedia_page_to_Wikidata
[10:35:43] <Denny_WMDE> basically:
[10:35:50] <Denny_WMDE> you create the article on xx.wp
[10:35:58] <Denny_WMDE> link to any article of the group
[10:36:06] <Denny_WMDE> and get the other language links for free back
[10:36:51] <Denny_WMDE> that's the design. it is not implemented yet, though
[10:37:04] <Denny_WMDE> the current implementation is: go to the respective wikidata item
[10:37:15] <Denny_WMDE> and link it to the unconnected artcile on the xx.wp
[10:37:25] <Denny_WMDE> but this will change, obviously
[10:37:40] <YairRand> huh. I kind of figured the stuff at mw:Extension:Interlanguage/WMF Design Pass would be used, or something much like it.
[10:37:56] <aharoni> OK. That's the feature that I most eagerly anticipate.
[10:38:29] <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: it does look a lot like this, doesn't it? we took inspiration from that design pass
[10:39:29] <YairRand> yeah, ok
[10:40:41] <Lydia_WMDE> moaaaaaaar questions please! :D
[10:41:02] <Denny_WMDE> i guess Lydia_WMDE you are making a great communications job :)
[10:41:21] <aharoni> What I am most curious about is how to find the first article in another language. A simple scenario is that I write an article in my language, go to a Wikipedia in a different language, and press the "add" button there.
[10:42:16] <Lydia_WMDE> Denny_WMDE is searching for the link to the story board :D
[10:42:35] <Denny_WMDE> hmm, i thought we had that.
[10:42:42] <Lydia_WMDE> we do
[10:42:42] <Denny_WMDE> basically it goes like this:
[10:42:43] -*- Lydia_WMDE looks
[10:42:59] <Denny_WMDE> if there is no wikidata item, the search goes directly to the target wikipedia
[10:43:51] <Denny_WMDE> ah
[10:43:52] <Denny_WMDE> found it
[10:43:52] <Denny_WMDE> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Storyboard_for_linking_Wikipedia_articles_v0.3#Connect_Wikipedia_page_to_new_Wikidata_item
[10:43:58] <Denny_WMDE> so if no item is found
[10:44:03] <Denny_WMDE> but there is an article
[10:44:09] <Denny_WMDE> a new item is created on the fly
[10:44:21] <Denny_WMDE> the editor does not feel much difference between the two stories
[10:44:52] <Denny_WMDE> also, correction to the link before that, it should have been http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Development/Storyboard_for_linking_Wikipedia_articles_v0.3#Connect_Wikipedia_page_to_existing_Wikidata_item
[10:45:00] <aharoni> It would be cooler, though, to find a way to do it without going to a Wikipedia in a different language. But I don't really know how to implement search then.
[10:45:22] <Denny_WMDE> you mean to connect an article to wikidata
[10:45:29] <Denny_WMDE> without connecting it to another language?
[10:45:39] <Denny_WMDE> i.e. only have an item with a single language link?
[10:46:31] <Denny_WMDE> for phase I, there is no use case for that, actually. in phase II we have to think about that story.
[10:46:42] <yannf> I am interested about books data for Wikisource
[10:47:01] <Lydia_WMDE> hey YairRand
[10:47:02] <Lydia_WMDE> eh
[10:47:04] <Lydia_WMDE> yannf
[10:47:08] <Denny_WMDE> yannf: go ahead, ask the question :)
[10:48:33] <yannf> I follow the Open Library project, but something more integrated with Wikimedia would be more useful
[10:49:11] <yannf> it would be interesting to be able to import data from Open Library
[10:49:19] <yannf> will it be possible?
[10:49:48] <yannf> at least for all public domain works
[10:49:50] <Lydia_WMDE> we're collecting use-cases like this here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Notes/Future
[10:50:02] <Lydia_WMDE> obviously we can't promise anything but adding it there would be great
[10:50:10] <Lydia_WMDE> then we can keep it in mind during development
[10:50:22] <Lydia_WMDE> and the community can see what is possible in the future if they want it
[10:51:33] <Denny_WMDE> yannf: you mean to upload the book metadata to wikidata?
[10:51:45] <yannf> yes
[10:51:53] <Denny_WMDE> there are several things to reconsider about that:
[10:52:12] <Denny_WMDE> 1. does the community want this data and will it maintain it? (probably yes, but i don't want to presume here anything)
[10:52:25] <Denny_WMDE> 2. is the data under a compatible license?
[10:52:29] <yannf> there have been a lot of issues about merging data for authors/books/editions in OL
[10:52:51] <Denny_WMDE> 3. can someone write a script to upload this kind of data to wikidata? we would help, and we definitively will provide the interfaces for that
[10:53:04] <Lydia_WMDE> oh http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Data_collaborators is also of interest for you
[10:53:15] <Denny_WMDE> 4. is an import the way to go, or should the data be collected anew? or something in between?
[10:53:24] <Denny_WMDE> most of these questions are more social than technical
[10:53:36] <Denny_WMDE> meaning, that it depends on what the community wants and will do
[10:53:42] <Denny_WMDE> and how the rules will be laid out
[10:53:49] <Denny_WMDE> from a technical perspective i can answer
[10:53:53] <Denny_WMDE> that this will be possible
[10:54:10] <Denny_WMDE> does this satisfy your question, yannf?
[10:54:21] <yannf> yes, thanks
[10:54:31] <Lydia_WMDE> \o/
[10:54:50] <Lydia_WMDE> 5 mins left - any last questions?
[10:55:06] <Lydia_WMDE> (you can always come to #wikimedia-wikidata for more obviously)
[10:55:18] <YairRand> WebFonts isn't enabled on the demo wiki. Is it going to be?
[10:55:30] <Denny_WMDE> due to timezone constraints we have to close on time today, our daily is starting at 11am CEST
[10:55:59] <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: if i understand it correctly, webfonts is part / will be part of ULS?
[10:56:07] <Denny_WMDE> in that case we will enable it as it lands there
[10:56:21] <YairRand> ah
[10:56:29] <Denny_WMDE> if i did *not* understand it correctly, we will enable it in order to display the links correctly
[10:56:54] <Denny_WMDE> meaning if webfonts is not / will not be part of ULS, we will install it additionally
[10:57:24] <YairRand> got it
[10:58:18] <Lydia_WMDE> alright folks - thanks so much for coming :)
[10:58:31] <Lydia_WMDE> if you have more questions hop over to #wikimedia-wikidata
[10:59:11] <yannf> ok, thanks