IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-09-19
(09:32:18 PDT) The topic for #wikimedia-office is: IRC office hours with the Localisation team (16:30-17:30 UTC) http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-i18n/2012-September/000544.html
(09:32:36 PDT) ***siebrand jumps up and slaps a thundering high5 with marktraceur
(09:32:39 PDT) planemad [4ce80823@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.127.116.11] entered the room.
(09:32:52 PDT) srikanthlogic: and who came here because they got a mail 10 minutes back ?
(09:33:00 PDT) MF-Warburg: me :D
(09:33:06 PDT) ***marktraceur raises hand again
(09:33:19 PDT) ***sumanah raises hand
(09:34:12 PDT) ***srikanthlogic pats himself for trying the crowd pulling technique :)
(09:34:29 PDT) srikanthlogic: I'll give some updates with news and topics for this meeting first. After that, we'll hopefully have a great Q&A session.
(09:34:41 PDT) Nicole_WMDE: Hi! :) I am here for the i18n thing but will probably just be lurking.
(09:34:53 PDT) Nemo_bis: hi Nicole_WMDE
(09:35:01 PDT) sumanah: hi Nicole_WMDE
(09:35:02 PDT) aude: hi
(09:35:08 PDT) Nicole_WMDE: hey ho :)
(09:35:29 PDT) ***Danny_B|backup peeps around
(09:35:57 PDT) srikanthlogic: If you want to ask questions now, please do ask them in a private message to me or you can wait for Q&A time
(09:35:58 PDT) thedj[work]: raises hand
(09:36:07 PDT) hashar [~sempitern@mediawiki/hashar] entered the room.
(09:36:39 PDT) giftpflanze [gifti@wikipedia/Giftpflanze] entered the room.
(09:36:50 PDT) planemad: hello all
(09:36:56 PDT) srikanthlogic: The members of localisation team who are around are Nikerabbit (Niklas), aharoni (Amir), pginer (Pau), siebrand, santhosh, planemad (Arun) and srikanthlogic, feel free to ping us
(09:37:06 PDT) ialex [~IAlex@mediawiki/pdpc.active.ialex] entered the room.
(09:37:11 PDT) ***siebrand greets ialex
(09:37:16 PDT) ***santhosh waves
(09:37:24 PDT) ialex: hi!
(09:38:03 PDT) srikanthlogic: Our topics for today are:
(09:38:05 PDT) srikanthlogic: 1. Language Team plan and Metrics
(09:38:07 PDT) srikanthlogic: 2. Project Milkshake updates
(09:38:09 PDT) srikanthlogic: 3. Other Updates.
(09:38:48 PDT) James_F|Away is now known as James_F
(09:39:27 PDT) srikanthlogic: Let me know start with Language team plan
(09:39:55 PDT) Christoph_WMDE left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection).
(09:40:03 PDT) srikanthlogic: Supporting languages which one does not know is not easy. We have always relied on volunteer support for language specific issues and improve usability of mediawiki in that language.
(09:40:37 PDT) aude: hi planemad
(09:41:05 PDT) ***planemad hi5's aude
(09:41:11 PDT) ***aude met @geohacker :)
(09:41:22 PDT) srikanthlogic: We have had some success in the past with Language support teams (http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Language_support_team)
(09:43:34 PDT) srikanthlogic: Now we have put in place a plan to work more closely and make stronger language teams which will strive to make Mediawiki and all features we build work in that language as it is for English.
(09:43:59 PDT) sumanah: (yay!)
(09:45:14 PDT) srikanthlogic: I have started working with few language volunteers and do let me know if you are interested in championing your language, I shall be happy to work with you
(09:47:23 PDT) srikanthlogic: We also published possible i18n metrics measurement criteria a while ago to see how best we can measure impact of our work
(09:47:45 PDT) srikanthlogic: Its available at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization_tools/Impact_Measurement_and_Metrics and we welcome your comments
(09:49:00 PDT) srikanthlogic: any questions ?
(09:51:51 PDT) StevenW [~textual@wikimedia/steven-walling] entered the room.
(09:51:51 PDT) jvandavier [~jvandavie@wikimedia/jvandavier] entered the room.
(09:52:41 PDT) srikanthlogic: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization_tools/Language_Team_Plan contains the plan and we welcome your feedback on this as well
(09:52:53 PDT) Waithamai left the room ("nothing to do here").
(09:53:20 PDT) gwicke [~gabriel@wikimedia/gwicke] entered the room.
(09:53:43 PDT) srikanthlogic: next up, updates on Project Milkshake
(09:54:33 PDT) ***planemad finally finished his watermelon. can now type
(09:55:23 PDT) srikanthlogic: for the benefit of people who are hearing it for first time, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project_Milkshake is a set of jQuery libraries which will make i18n libraries used in mediawiki as generic jQuery libraries
(09:56:12 PDT) jorm [~bharris@wikimedia/jorm] entered the room.
(09:56:32 PDT) xlorm [~firstname.lastname@example.org] entered the room.
(09:56:41 PDT) srikanthlogic: santhosh recently made some improvements to jquery.i18n
(09:57:36 PDT) srikanthlogic: and we now also have jquery.uls part of Milkshake, a jQuery component for Universal Language Selector
(09:58:00 PDT) srikanthlogic: https://github.com/wikimedia/jquery.uls
(09:58:04 PDT) thedj[work]: nice !
(09:58:49 PDT) hashar left the room (quit: Quit: I am a manual virus, please copy me to your quit message.).
(09:58:55 PDT) brion [~brion@wikipedia/pdpc.professional.brion] entered the room.
(09:58:59 PDT) ***aude wonders of anyone has submitted patches to jquery.ui to fix language stuff?
(09:59:09 PDT) giftpflanze: what is project milkshake?
(09:59:29 PDT) thedj[work]: "Project Milkshake is a project that aims to make generic jQuery components for commonly needed internationalisation features. The project was conceived by the Wikimedia Localisation team in July 2012."
(09:59:44 PDT) siebrand: giftpflanze: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project_Milkshake is a set of jQuery libraries which will make i18n libraries used in mediawiki as generic jQuery libraries
(09:59:44 PDT) ***aude is underimpressed with RTL support for some of the ui stuff
(10:00:05 PDT) ***siebrand blinks as aude and asks for bug numbers.
(10:00:14 PDT) siebrand: s/ as / at /
(10:00:31 PDT) santhosh: aude: aharoni had submitted some RTL patches to jquery.ui IIRC
(10:01:00 PDT) Nikerabbit: well, we did postpone most RTL fixes to after i18n integration
(10:01:17 PDT) jeblad_WMDE [~chatzilla@p5DDC5A58.dip.t-dialin.net] entered the room.
(10:01:42 PDT) aude: siebrand: stuff like autosuggestions. we're making some fixes (err. hacks) in the wikidata code, but perhaps some is useful more generally in mediawiki
(10:01:47 PDT) aude: and maybe fix upstream
(10:02:10 PDT) aude: assigning dir=___ in places, etc.
(10:02:41 PDT) aharoni: aude, you know where to catch me :)
(10:03:03 PDT) ***aude will get slapped with a trout if i get too sidetracked on i18n stuff, though
(10:03:06 PDT) aharoni: I am fixing RTL bugs continuously. If there is anything in particular that you need fixed, ping me.
(10:03:08 PDT) aude: :)
(10:03:11 PDT) siebrand: I'd love to see upstream submissions of fixes; that's the whole idea of Milkshake; that the wider software development community can gain from a joint effort.
(10:03:13 PDT) aude: aharoni: ok
(10:03:44 PDT) siebrand: If there are any issues in particular, that unimpressed you, and where you think additional effort is required, please report a bug.
(10:03:50 PDT) siebrand: We are very responsive in general.
(10:03:51 PDT) srikanthlogic: jquery.i18n is going to used in Universal Language Selector, so one wont be seeing NA, SA, EU short codes on the ULS regions, as ULS will be soon be internationalized
(10:03:51 PDT) aude: siebrand: ok
(10:05:09 PDT) marktraceur: aharoni: Job title "RTL Engineer"? :)
(10:06:21 PDT) MatmaRex [~MatmaRex@77-255-122-183.adsl.inetia.pl] entered the room.
(10:06:22 PDT) thedj[work]: What do the jQuery folks think of Milkshake ? specifically of jquery.i18n ?
(10:06:42 PDT) aharoni: krinkle ^
(10:07:15 PDT) srikanthlogic: santhosh: ^
(10:07:20 PDT) Krinkle: I don't think its on their radar
(10:07:30 PDT) siebrand: Quoting from an earlier code review e-mail of Krinkle "Looking good so far!" ;)
(10:07:57 PDT) thedj[work]: is their a plan for getting it on their radar ?
(10:08:08 PDT) Krinkle: siebrand: I'm going to submit my pull for jq.i18n today. I did find a few issues, but nothing you guys can't handle. Its pretty solid.
(10:08:26 PDT) siebrand: We are going to talk about it Twitter and Google, and we're presenting it at a university in San francisco tomorrow.
(10:09:06 PDT) siebrand: Amir has demoed it to Mozilla folks in Poland 2 weeks ago.
(10:09:26 PDT) siebrand: thedj[work]: If you have any contact, feel free to join the cabal.
(10:09:30 PDT) Krinkle: I'm not sure it should or whether they'd want that. The model in jQuery is mostly to let the community power itself. Its very good at that and its a proven model. it does mean that the average plugin needs to do a little more on its own (set up your own repo, maintain it, create a documentation site) but github makes that very easy.
(10:09:39 PDT) thedj[work]: are there other jquery projects 'competing' for the same feature ? It's a shame if jquery would suddenly fully back another i18n project
(10:09:42 PDT) Krinkle: What would you want from "jQuery" ?
(10:10:02 PDT) aharoni left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection).
(10:10:38 PDT) Krinkle: People use what they want to use, the idea of official plugins is no more (at least not being encouraged any more).
(10:10:48 PDT) Krinkle: marktraceur: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_RTL
(10:10:58 PDT) aharoni [~email@example.com] entered the room.
(10:10:58 PDT) Krinkle: The german may come after you claiming trademarks
(10:11:33 PDT) thedj[work]: ok. just making sure that there is no possiblities of unnecesary 'lack of communitication' claims after the fact.
(10:11:51 PDT) awjr left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving.).
(10:12:14 PDT) srikanthlogic: In other news, we continued improving Universal Language Selector, mostly through bug fixes recently.
(10:12:56 PDT) srikanthlogic: planemad and pginer interacted with more translators on improving their translate ux prototypes
(10:13:33 PDT) srikanthlogic: If you are a translator and have some time to help, please ping them, they need your help to test prototypes
(10:14:19 PDT) ***jeblad_WMDE waves and heads home
(10:14:32 PDT) planemad: To give a quick update, we have been document our progress on http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Translation_UX
(10:15:09 PDT) planemad: We are always looking for multingual users to test the different language components and get feedback
(10:15:15 PDT) awjr [~Adium@wikimedia/awjrichards] entered the room.
(10:15:33 PDT) planemad: Info on our usability tests and how you can participate is here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Translation_UX/Participate
(10:16:21 PDT) jeblad_WMDE left the room (quit: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120907231657]).
(10:16:58 PDT) planemad: We are preparing our final deliverables this sprint and you should be able to see how future translations would be made in the next two weeks
(10:17:37 PDT) Nicole_WMDE left the room (quit: Quit: bye).
(10:17:53 PDT) aude: why is gerrit so slow today?
(10:18:09 PDT) nasir8891_ [~firstname.lastname@example.org] entered the room.
(10:18:31 PDT) srikanthlogic: Wikimedia i18n team will be participating in a Language Summit (partnered along with Redhat and Mozilla) to be held at Pune in early November (5-7)
(10:18:47 PDT) ***srikanthlogic waves at nasir8891_
(10:19:06 PDT) preilly [~email@example.com] entered the room.
(10:19:06 PDT) preilly left the room (quit: Changing host).
(10:19:06 PDT) preilly [~preilly@wikipedia/preilly] entered the room.
(10:19:12 PDT) siebrand: 10 minutes left.
(10:19:42 PDT) Nemo_bis: planemad: see pm
(10:19:43 PDT) nasir8891 left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
(10:19:50 PDT) nasir8891_ is now known as nasir8891
(10:20:01 PDT) srikanthlogic: We will also be at Bangalore, India the week after language summit for a hackathon / wmf developer days
(10:21:07 PDT) thedj[work]: cool. you guys are going strong !
(10:22:30 PDT) srikanthlogic: Last few minutes for questions
(10:23:50 PDT) srikanthlogic: you can always come to #mediawiki-i18n and ping though !
(10:25:08 PDT) nasir8891_ [~firstname.lastname@example.org] entered the room.
(10:25:14 PDT) ***aude interested in feedback for https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/24211/ and if it's a good solution
(10:25:31 PDT) aude: it's a patch for sorting interlanguage links
(10:26:35 PDT) nasir8891 left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
(10:26:48 PDT) nasir8891_ is now known as nasir8891
(10:26:52 PDT) srikanthlogic: A few closing remarks before we hit the hour mark
(10:26:54 PDT) siebrand: aude: I think the docs for the setting are insufficient (sorted how, for example)
(10:27:10 PDT) siebrand: by code, by autonym, another way.
(10:27:16 PDT) srikanthlogic: We will be holding a sprint demo every fortnight, on Tuesdays at 15.00 UTC.
(10:27:21 PDT) James_F is now known as James_F|Away
(10:27:36 PDT) srikanthlogic: During these demos, will go in-depth on the output we have had as a team in the two weeks before, and we will outline what we will be working on in the two weeks to come.
(10:27:51 PDT) siebrand: I think the preferences order should probably be configurable on a wiki level, as it currently done by interwiki bots.
(10:27:58 PDT) srikanthlogic: Our latest progress report is at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikimedia_Localisation_team_Sprint_24_demo.pdf
(10:28:00 PDT) aude: siebrand: agree
(10:28:17 PDT) siebrand: If the bots do it wrong, they get pissed off community members.
(10:28:26 PDT) srikanthlogic: Our next sprint demo will be on October 2, 2012 at 15.00 UTC. It's a max. 40 minute meeting, with a presentation of at most 20 minutes, and then we have a Q&A until the meeting ends or until there are no more questions.
(10:28:30 PDT) aude: but if the overall idea is okay, if it's a good idea to put it in outputpage, etc.
(10:28:35 PDT) siebrand: any other solution will probably meet with a veto.
(10:28:43 PDT) srikanthlogic: We use WebEx, and invitation for the demos are sent to the mailing list mediawiki-i18n -> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n. Subscribe!
(10:28:55 PDT) srikanthlogic: The next office hours will be on October 17th, 16:30 UTC. Thanks everyone for being here.
(10:28:59 PDT) aude: siebrand: they have it as a system message, in the patch and now i think
(10:29:09 PDT) siebrand: *eventually*, ULS can play a role in allowing individualized interlanguage link ordering, but we're not there yet.
(10:29:10 PDT) aude: it wouldn't be localized in the usual way though
(10:29:15 PDT) srikanthlogic: /s/The next office hours/The next i18n office hours
(10:29:18 PDT) ***aude nods
(10:29:26 PDT) aude: or wikidata could do that
(10:29:32 PDT) aude: maybe
(10:29:41 PDT) siebrand: aude: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/24211/1 doesn't register a system message....
(10:30:00 PDT) aude: siebrand: yes but it uses a message
(10:30:09 PDT) siebrand: aude: That should be registered.
(10:30:09 PDT) aude: it's just undefined, unless it's set i suppose
(10:30:18 PDT) ***aude nods
(10:30:35 PDT) aude: and have a default?
(10:30:45 PDT) thedj[work]: till next time folks ! good hour
(10:30:48 PDT) aude: or default could be language code?
(10:30:48 PDT) thedj[work] left the room.
(10:31:26 PDT) siebrand: aude: I've done some CR
(10:32:08 PDT) siebrand: aude: Default value of the message can be '-' which can be check with wfMessage( key )->isDisabled()