IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-11-14

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Log of the IRC chat about Echo Notifications, hosted by Oliver Keyes (WMF), a.k.a Ironholds and Fabrice Florin

Fluffernutter joined the chat room.
[12:58pm] howief joined the chat room.
[12:59pm] Maryana joined the chat room.
[12:59pm] • Fluffernutter quacks like a duck, listens for the Echo
[12:59pm] Ironholds: agh, staffers!
[12:59pm] • Ironholds runs
[12:59pm] fabriceflorin: Hello Fluffernutter, good to meet you again!
[12:59pm] Fluffernutter: hiya
[12:59pm] Thehelpfulone: Hi fabriceflorin
[12:59pm] legoktm joined the chat room.
[1:00pm] fabriceflorin: Hey, Thehelpfulone, so nice to reconnect with you here!
[1:00pm] Ironholds: yo, legoktm
[1:00pm] jorm: greetings, nerds.
[1:00pm] legoktm: hey Ironholds!
[1:00pm] Ironholds: ahoy Fluffernutter. Not seen you in a while.
[1:00pm] Ironholds: jorm: NEEEEEEERDS!
[1:00pm] zeljkof left the chat room. (Quit: zeljkof)
[1:00pm] legoktm: glad to see you came back to -en albeit shortly
[1:01pm] Ironholds: legoktm: I don't trust The Man. That's why I refuse to go in -en.
[1:01pm] Ironholds: and, uh. Work for the WMF. Something went terribly wrong somewhere.
[1:01pm] jvandavier left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[1:01pm] Fluffernutter: ewww, there are men in -en?
[1:01pm] Ironholds: Who else is here for echo office hours?
[1:01pm] fabriceflorin: Hi, legoktm , thanks for joining our meeting!
[1:01pm] jvandavier joined the chat room.
[1:01pm] Thehelpfulone: and you too
[1:01pm] • Maryana raises hand
[1:01pm] legoktm: hi fabriceflorin!
[1:01pm] Ironholds: jvandavier, you clearly are
[1:01pm] kaldari: howdy folks
[1:01pm] fabriceflorin: Hey Maryana !
[1:01pm] howief: hi all!
[1:02pm] fabriceflorin: We really look forward to starting a conversation with you guys about Echo, our new notifications project for Wikipedia.
[1:02pm] Utar joined the chat room.
[1:03pm] GW|Homework joined the chat room.
[1:03pm] Ironholds: Utar!
[1:03pm] • Ironholds high-fives
[1:03pm] fabriceflorin: There is a lot of useful info about this project on this MediaWiki page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Echo
[1:03pm] fabriceflorin: Hey Utar, welcome back! Long time ...
[1:03pm] jvandavier: Ironholds: i must've missed something what am i?
[1:04pm] Ironholds: jvandavier: a tall american gentleman with a peppy sense of humour. Next question.
[1:04pm] jorm: "tall"
[1:04pm] kaldari: relative to the rest of us
[1:04pm] kaldari: of course no one has height in cyberspace
[1:04pm] fabriceflorin: Hey jvandavier : glad you dropped by on our IRC chat about Echo (Notifications) !
[1:05pm] Ironholds: jorm: compared to me
[1:05pm] fabriceflorin: Ironholds: Should we get started then?
[1:05pm] fabriceflorin: Hey Jorm, thanks for joining us!
[1:05pm] Ironholds: fabriceflorin: certainment :). I'd suggest starting with "what this is" and "what we're trying to solve for"
[1:05pm] Utar: fabriceflorin: hi, fabrice
[1:06pm] jorm: i can handle the "what are we trying to solve" bit, if you like.
[1:06pm] Utar: go on
[1:06pm] GW|Homework is now known as GorillaWarfare.
[1:07pm] fabriceflorin: Thanks, Ironholds ! The primary purpose of Echo is to help people become more aware of important events that relate to them on Wikipedia … and give them a way to take action on those events that matter most to them.
[1:07pm] jorm: One of the biggest problems that editors (of all kinds, but especially new editors) face is seeing that stuff is actually "going on"
[1:07pm] jorm: Currently, the only type of notification that any users recieve is an antiquated yellow bar on their screen if someone edits their talk page.
[1:07pm] fabriceflorin: One of the biggest issues right now is that Wikipedia doesn't have a robust, modern notification system, relying instead on an ad-hoc that is not efficient.
[1:07pm] jorm: of course, this looks just like a jillion OTHER yellow bars on pages, so it gets ignored.
[1:08pm] jorm: developing something that works with the same mental model that people are used to - and scales to multiple types of events - is pretty much paramount for everything going forward.
[1:09pm] fabriceflorin: Some of the solutions we hope to prove include: providing a unified user experience for end-users, as well as helping developers access a more robust notifications system when writing new code. The ultimate objective, of course, is to encourage more users to participate productively on Wikipedia.
[1:09pm] BarkingFish joined the chat room.
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[1:09pm] jorm: tl;dr: people have no clue what's going on. we need to fix that.
[1:10pm] fabriceflorin: Yes, totally agree with Jorm points. We need to fix notifications before we can implement many of the editor engagement programs that people have recommended to us.
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[1:10pm] jorm: there's a very broad vision regarding this stuff (like, cross-wiki notifications), and then there's "short term what can be done first"
[1:11pm] fabriceflorin: This is where you guys come in. We are looking for your initial impressions on the Echo project, and would like to hear from you about the kinds of notifications you would personally like to have to make your life easier.
[1:11pm] Qcoder00 joined the chat room.
[1:11pm] Utar: What this is? ~Just a little tea party with our favourite metal holder.
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[1:11pm] BarkingFish: fabriceflorin, first thing I'd be very interested in is x-wiki new message alerts.
[1:11pm] fabriceflorin: Later in this IRC chat, we will invite you to test a very rough prototype, to give you a sense of where we are headed. But for now, we'd like to ask you a few questions, if it's OK.
[1:11pm] Ironholds: BarkingFish: x-wiki?
[1:11pm] legoktm: Ironholds: cross-wiki
[1:12pm] BarkingFish: essentially, log into whichever wiki you start with, and get notification of where you have new messages on other wikis you belong to
[1:12pm] Qcoder00: Hi Ironholds
[1:12pm] jorm: BarkingFish: that was actually what i was originally intending to solve for. but it's a difficult problem, technically, and we have to start smaller.
[1:12pm] Ironholds: legoktm: ahh
[1:12pm] Ironholds: BarkingFish: but this is what it will eventually end up as. Touch wood.
[1:12pm] jorm: I'd love to get notified on enwiki that someone on commons deleted one of my files.
[1:12pm] fabriceflorin: You can read more about this project on this hub page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Echo
[1:12pm] Qcoder00: Ironholds: I'dlike to request an office hourse on something other than the current topic, PM ok?
[1:12pm] jorm: or that conversations on meta have changed.
[1:12pm] jorm: etc.
[1:12pm] Ironholds: Qcoder00: if you really want
[1:12pm] BarkingFish: jorm, when you say start smaller, what do you mean? Start with notification from one wiki to your home, or something else?
[1:12pm] Tpt left the chat room.
[1:12pm] jorm: localwiki.
[1:12pm] jorm: not crosswiki.
[1:12pm] jorm: here's a real situation.
[1:12pm] BarkingFish: ah.
[1:12pm] vbamba joined the chat room.
[1:13pm] jorm: when you create a page, it is "unpatrolled"
[1:13pm] kaldari: yes, technically, it's much easier for us to start with local events
[1:13pm] fabriceflorin: Also, check out these short slides from our last presentation: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Echo-Slides-11-01-2012.pdf
[1:13pm] legoktm: so this doesnt change how talk pages look (like LQT did), just how you get notified right?
[1:13pm] jorm: eventually, someone marks it patrolled, right? but you have NO IDEA that it happened. in fact, the only way you know is if someone DOESN'T delete it.
[1:13pm] fabriceflorin: The full project overview slides are here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:Echo-Overview-Slides-10-18-2012.pdf
[1:13pm] jorm: well, a simple notification ("the page you created, foo, was marked as reviewed by George") goes a long, long way.
[1:13pm] jorm: legoktm: no.
[1:13pm] Ks0stm joined the chat room.
[1:13pm] jorm: talk pages remain talk pages with this project.
[1:14pm] fabriceflorin: So let me start with this first question: How often do you now get notifications from Wikipedia? Do you get email notifications? on-site notifications? What do you like/not like about these notifications?
[1:14pm] Jamesofur joined the chat room.
[1:14pm] kaldari: and the watchlist remains how it is as well
[1:14pm] BarkingFish: yeah, that I'd agree with, jorm - that would be very useful to start with.
[1:14pm] Utar: jorm: to croiss wiki: it seems to me most of new commons uploaders just upload their images and then never go back to Commons to see their files are getting deleted
[1:14pm] jorm: right. first phase is atomic events, and localwiki.
[1:14pm] jorm: Utar: and that's because there's no cross-wiki notifications.
[1:14pm] Utar: jorm:they just don§t realize those discuss pages are separated
[1:14pm] GorillaWarfare: "atomic events"?
[1:15pm] BarkingFish: Where are you targeting notifications to appear? Top bar as with the new messages notice, or another part of the UI?
[1:15pm] legoktm: fabriceflorin: email notifications for talkpage, watchlist for other stuff, and wm-bot set up in my irc chatroom for real time things
[1:15pm] Ironholds: GorillaWarfare: tiny, granular, self-complete
[1:15pm] legoktm: BarkingFish: the mw page has a screenshot
[1:15pm] Ironholds: so, for example; someone patrols your page
[1:15pm] jorm: An "atomic" event is a single event that is self-contained.
[1:15pm] BarkingFish: ok legoktm, i'll go look
[1:15pm] Ironholds: how do you know this? Well, uh. if you've watchlisted it, and only then, you get an entry on your watchlist
[1:15pm] Ironholds: along with 500billion other entries
[1:15pm] kaldari: GorillaWarfare: In the event of an atomic attack, we use Echo to notify everyone to begin implementing WP:TERMINAL
[1:15pm] fabriceflorin: Thanks, legoktm. Are you happy with the level of notification you get now? or would you want to be notified about other events? or in different ways?
[1:16pm] Ironholds: Echo? Echo pulls out events like that and notifies you distinctly
[1:16pm] Ironholds: "$article you wrote was patrolled!"
[1:16pm] jorm: so, would it help if i described a non-atomic event, for context?
[1:16pm] GorillaWarfare: fabriceflorin: I find the emailing system difficult
[1:16pm] Qcoder00: "$Image was flagged as missing a license " etc
[1:16pm] Qcoder00: ?
[1:16pm] BarkingFish: I can't believe I'm saying this - but I LIKE this.
[1:16pm] howief: before getting into too much detail
[1:17pm] howief: I'd like to say a few things about the project
[1:17pm] legoktm: fabriceflorin: it works for me right now. based on the amount of pages i have on my watchlist i'm not sure how-helpful something like echo could/would be.
[1:17pm] GorillaWarfare: fabriceflorin: I don't personally use it, except for on wikis that I'm only semi-active. But I feel that new users can easily be confused by those emails, try to reply to them instead of replying on the talk page, etc.
[1:17pm] jorm: BarkingFish: Of course you do. Heh.
[1:17pm] BarkingFish: I like the look, the way you've kept the notifications up in the top bar with your talk page, user page, etc
[1:17pm] fabriceflorin: Hey GorillaWarfare : thanks for your feedback about the email system. What's most frustrating to you, and what would you expect to get from email notifications in the future?
[1:17pm] GorillaWarfare: fabriceflorin: See above
[1:17pm] BarkingFish: jorm, you know how hard it is to get me to like anything which changes mediawiki/wiki*edia
[1:17pm] howief: I want to go back to the core problem, which both jorm and fabrice mentioned
[1:17pm] jorm: i know!
[1:17pm] BarkingFish: it's like trying to pull hen's teeth
[1:17pm] howief: and why we're approaching things the way we are
[1:18pm] Qcoder00: Would something like Echo be useful for a use case like Commons needing to back inform English Wikipedia users about deletions?
[1:18pm] fabriceflorin: GorillaWarfare: Good point about users being confused about how to respond to some of the email notifications. We've observed that as well.
[1:18pm] Thehelpfulone: hmm, looking at that presentation you linked to fabriceflorin (the full one) slide 6
[1:18pm] Thehelpfulone: • Someone mentioned your name incompatible encoding
[1:18pm] Thehelpfulone: is that going to be reasible to notify about?
[1:18pm] Ironholds: Thehelpfulone: this is an issue I've already brought up
[1:18pm] BarkingFish: But that is beautiful. Very similar appearance to the way you get notified of new posts in VBulletin, or in some BB software
[1:18pm] Ironholds: we have issues with (for example) the fact that some users have usernames that match, you know, words
[1:18pm] Thehelpfulone: heh, great minds..
[1:18pm] Ironholds: Anonymoususer66666 will not come up in random unrelated discussion
[1:19pm] BarkingFish: I am impressed. So how quickly are you looking to implement this?
[1:19pm] Ironholds: John Lilburn or Sigma or "bob" might.
[1:19pm] fabriceflorin: Thehelpfulone: We are just now experimenting with a first version of "someone mentioned your name" -- the idea is to send that from talk pages and discussion pages, primarily.
[1:19pm] jorm: Qcoder00: eventually, yes.
[1:19pm] Thehelpfulone: and • Your edit was undone --> are we going to also do this for when an edit was reverted? I'd recommend not to as most reversions are against vandalism incompatible encoding
[1:19pm] Ironholds: fabriceflorin: this will still have problems
[1:19pm] fabriceflorin: Hey everyone: When would you like to be notified? What actions are most notification-worthy to you? Which would warrant an email?
[1:19pm] kaldari: BarkingFish: 1st iteration in January
[1:19pm] jorm: Thehelpfulone: a plan is to include a "mentions" thing. "Joe mentioned you in a comment on blah"
[1:19pm] Qcoder00: jorm: I also have the issue of having 'alternate accounts' and I rarely check the parent one
[1:19pm] BarkingFish: kaldari, too long Any chance of beta prior to christmas?
[1:19pm] Ironholds: fabriceflorin: we've got a User:John Lilburne. You telling me he'll be notified every time John Lilburne is mentioned on, say, the John Lilburne talkpage?
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[1:20pm] Ironholds: BarkingFish: unlikely: fundraising and VE beta launch in December.
[1:20pm] Utar: ...reading...
[1:20pm] Ironholds: we do not want to make things explode
[1:20pm] jorm: But let's back out a second; Howie wants to talk about some process decisions.
[1:20pm] howief: i think we should actually get to the prototype
[1:20pm] howief: since it will give folks a sense of the feature
[1:20pm] howief: but before that
[1:20pm] howief: i want to reiterate the core problem
[1:21pm] fabriceflorin: Thehelpfulone: Yes, we plan to provide the option to get notified whenever your edit gets reverted. But we are not sure if that should be the default or not, because it could be demoralizing, so we are thinking of letting users set that option themselves in preferences. What do you think?
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[1:21pm] howief: new editors make edits/create pages, but they have no idea what happens afterwards
[1:21pm] howief: so much of the initial phases of this project are going to targeted at new users
[1:22pm] howief: hopefully they will improve the experience of our more experienced editors as well
[1:22pm] howief: but the target is going to be closing the loop for the folks who don't know these loops exist
[1:22pm] howief: make sense?
[1:22pm] Thehelpfulone: fabriceflorin, well there are two ways that an edit can get reverted - they can either be "undone" or "rollbacked"
[1:22pm] BarkingFish: yep - and this will fix that, I can see it now from just the slides and screenshots. The goalmouth is so wide you can't possibly miss scoring with it, howief.
[1:22pm] Thehelpfulone: on Wikipedia we use rollback to revert obvious vandalism
[1:22pm] Ironholds: Thehelpfulone: or manually removed, or any of those actions through the API
[1:22pm] jorm: Thehelpfulone: we can detect reversions of either kind.
[1:22pm] howief: BarkingFish: low expectations
[1:22pm] Ironholds: we have thought way ahead of you
[1:22pm] Thehelpfulone: so notifying a vandal that their edit has been rollbacked won't be very good
[1:23pm] fabriceflorin: Thanks, howief ! I will also point out that we are initially focusing on some notification types that are not already covered in the watchlist, such as notifications about your edit being reverted, your new page being reviewed, or someone mentioning your name.
[1:23pm] legoktm: Thehelpfulone: Well twinkle/huggle don't use the built-in rollback
[1:23pm] Ironholds: Thehelpfulone: disagree! "your edit got removed. Cut that shit out"
[1:23pm] Thehelpfulone: Ironholds, you've been working on this for months
[1:23pm] jorm: I can explain how it works technically if you want.
[1:23pm] jorm: but catching teh "rollback" is easy.
[1:23pm] BarkingFish: The thing is - it's gonna be great for new editors, no question - but this is, with no disrespect, how new things come in here. Start with the new editors, introduce it to the experienced ones later, when everyone else is already up to their necks in it.
[1:24pm] BarkingFish: I can understand you aiming it at new editors, sure - but how about getting everyone in on it at the same time?
[1:24pm] Ciphers joined the chat room.
[1:24pm] Ironholds: BarkingFish: all notifications will hit everyone (unless disabled via preference)
[1:24pm] howief: BarkingFish: ideally that's where we'd land
[1:24pm] Ironholds: the focus is more on what class of notifications we handle first
[1:24pm] fabriceflorin: We will initially release a first version of notifications in early 2013 that will only support a small number of notifications, then expand with more types of notifications in the spring. A very preliminary list of notifications we are looking now is posted here:
[1:24pm] BarkingFish: we can all learn, and the experienced editors can help the new ones
[1:24pm] kaldari: BarkingFish: What notification would be most useful for experienced editors?
[1:24pm] Ciphers is now known as Guest11049.
[1:24pm] fabriceflorin: https://docs.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AookVJK45wXddHJ3anhPLXJyNFJRM0N2YUdGREdEdlE#gid=0
[1:25pm] Ironholds: so, one of the ones we've got at the moment: talkpage messages. That's good for everyone
[1:25pm] legoktm: Ironholds: So is there only going to be a opt-out of everything or nothing? or can we selectively turn certain things on and off?
[1:25pm] Ironholds: legoktm: there'll be a selective opt-out to some degree, but that's one of the things I understand is still being worked on
[1:25pm] Ironholds: how to make it granular but not a wall of buttons is hard.
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[1:25pm] BarkingFish: kaldari, new reply in a thread they're involved in? AN/I, ARBCOM or somewhere else? Message in a Wikiproject?
[1:25pm] fabriceflorin: Ironholds: Should we invite folks to test our prototype now? Do we have some test accounts they could use?
[1:26pm] kaldari: legoktm: you can turn off the notifications link and flyout completely, and selectively disable the email notifications by type.
[1:26pm] Thehelpfulone: jorm, oh I presumed we would be able to do that, but I just wanted to make sure that we were differentiating between them (if for example we wanted to not show rollbacks in theory)
[1:26pm] legoktm: kaldari: realistically everything that people use ERROR: Please enter the username parameter when using the {{Talkback}} template. for
[1:26pm] Ironholds: fabriceflorin: as my email said, we don't need test accounts
[1:26pm] jorm: we can detect rollbacks independant from reversions.
[1:26pm] Ironholds: gimme 45 seconds and I'll have everything done, though
[1:27pm] jorm: ERROR: Please enter the username parameter when using the {{Talkback}} template. was one of the original impetuses behind the project design.
[1:27pm] kaldari: BarkingFish: We've already started coding for some of those, but since they are more complicated to detect, they probably won't be in the first release
[1:27pm] fabriceflorin: Ironholds: Cool. So folks, here is a first diagram that shows what basic features we are working on (focus on the left side of the diagram, desktop only right now): http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:Echo-Touchpoints-Map-10-18-2012.png
[1:27pm] legoktm: jorm: I would like to see that template die
[1:28pm] kaldari: BarkingFish: So it's more because they are problematic to implement rather than that we aren't considering established users
[1:28pm] jorm: with echo, it will.
[1:28pm] BarkingFish: That's only a couple of ideas, kaldari - I'm tired and can't really pull too much off the top of my head right now
[1:28pm] Utar: fabriceflorin: e-mail: I would go with AfD pages created by me or my uploaded "missing license" images
[1:28pm] GorillaWarfare: legoktm: +1
[1:28pm] jorm: the other problem with those situations is that they are enwiki specific.
[1:28pm] BarkingFish: there may be less important ones to try
[1:28pm] fabriceflorin: So the VERY ROUGH prototype you are about to test will let you see the Web flyout, the All-Notifications page at this point. But we will add Settings and Email notifications shortly.
[1:28pm] jorm: different wikis have different solutions for AN/I.
[1:29pm] kaldari: BarkingFish: Plus a lot of those issues will hopefully be fixed by Flow, the next big project
[1:29pm] halfak left the chat room.
[1:29pm] BarkingFish: brb
[1:29pm] jorm: heh. been working on flow all day, as much as can.
[1:29pm] fabriceflorin: Currently, notifications will appear in the Web flyout near your name on the top right of any page, when someone: posts on your talk page, reverts your edit or reviews/patrols a new page you created.
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[1:30pm] Ironholds: alright, we all ready for prototype testing?
[1:30pm] vbamba: Also they not categorized but will carry icons to help quickly decide whether you care to investigate further
[1:31pm] vbamba: The icons are not currently in the prototype, still WIP
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[1:31pm] fabriceflorin: Ironholds: Thanks, I think we are ready for the link. I recommend that we try to leave messages on each other's talk pages, and revert each others's edits.
[1:31pm] Ironholds: (for non-TLA speakers: Work in Progress)
[1:31pm] Ironholds: fabriceflorin: way ahead of you
[1:31pm] Ironholds: right. Everyone pop over to http://test2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page - if you don't have an account, shout out and I'll ping you details of a test account
[1:32pm] Ironholds: if you DO have an account but don't notice anything different, also shout out, because it means I'm an idiot or someone has stolen your account
[1:32pm] Thehelpfulone: it's a sul wiki, they can make one
[1:32pm] Ironholds: this is true!
[1:32pm] legoktm: Ironholds: I just got the "Our servers are currently experiencing a technical problem. This is probably temporary and should be fixed soon. Please try again in a few minutes."...
[1:32pm] legoktm: PHP fatal error in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.21wmf4/extensions/Echo/formatters/CommentFormatter.php line 28:
[1:32pm] legoktm: Call to a member function equals() on a non-object
[1:33pm] fabriceflorin: Please let us know what your account name is, and share your talkpage URL on test2.wikipedia.org, so we can leave messages for you. To get the ball rolling, here's my talkpage: https://test2.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Fabrice_Florin_(WMF)
[1:33pm] Thehelpfulone: aww You have not received any notifications lately.
[1:33pm] Thehelpfulone: https://test2.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Thehelpfulone
[1:33pm] Ironholds: Thehelpfulone: try again
[1:33pm] Ironholds: legoktm: oh dear
[1:33pm] mindspillage joined the chat room.
[1:33pm] Thehelpfulone: nope, still nothing
[1:33pm] legoktm: I tried clicking the "Notifications" button
[1:33pm] Ironholds: Thehelpfulone: and you're User:Thehelpfulone?
[1:33pm] Thehelpfulone: yep
[1:33pm] GorillaWarfare: http://test2.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:GorillaWarfare
[1:34pm] BarkingFish: http://test2.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BarkingFish
[1:34pm] Ironholds: Thehelpfulone: tried refreshing?
[1:34pm] bsitu: the job queue on test2 is not firing notif automatically, I need to trigger it manally
[1:34pm] Thehelpfulone: just did, and now I get the same message as legoktm after clearing cache
[1:34pm] Ironholds: GorillaWarfare: hit random article or something. See if a notification shows
[1:34pm] Ironholds: bsitu: oh dear.
[1:34pm] legoktm: https://test2.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Legoktm
[1:34pm] bsitu: it's processing now
[1:34pm] GorillaWarfare: Ironholds: Nope
[1:34pm] jorm: hrm. i'm not autoconfirmed on this wiki.
[1:35pm] GorillaWarfare: And clicking Notifications gives an error
[1:35pm] GorillaWarfare: OOH
[1:35pm] GorillaWarfare: Red 1
[1:36pm] kaldari: an error?
[1:36pm] Thehelpfulone: are you sure jorm? Implicit member of: Autoconfirmed users
[1:36pm] GorillaWarfare: I'm seeing a red one by notifications, but clicking it gives that error
[1:36pm] jorm: i am not able to review/patrol pages.
[1:36pm] Thehelpfulone: and all of a sudden I have a red 4 now
[1:36pm] Ironholds: Thehelpfulone: and when you click?
[1:36pm] BarkingFish: Uhoh
[1:36pm] fabriceflorin: Hey Thehelpfulone and GorillaWarfare, I just left messages on your talk pages. Did you see the notifications?
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[1:36pm] Thehelpfulone: then an error
[1:36pm] BarkingFish: Just tried to pick up a notification and got this:
[1:36pm] BarkingFish: PHP fatal error in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.21wmf4/extensions/Echo/formatters/CommentFormatter.php line 28:
[1:36pm] BarkingFish: Call to a member function equals() on a non-object
[1:36pm] Thehelpfulone: jorm, I can give you adminship?
[1:37pm] Thehelpfulone: PHP fatal error in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.21wmf4/extensions/Echo/formatters/CommentFormatter.php line 28:
[1:37pm] Thehelpfulone: Call to a member function equals() on a non-object
[1:37pm] Thehelpfulone: yeah same thing
[1:37pm] jorm: feel free.
[1:37pm] BarkingFish: yup
[1:37pm] fabriceflorin: If you guys make some edits, we can go ahead and revert them now. Then if you create new pages, we can review them shortly.
[1:37pm] Thehelpfulone: done jorm
[1:37pm] Ironholds: fabriceflorin: the software is /breaking when they receive notifications/
[1:37pm] Thehelpfulone: fabriceflorin, it appears that Special:Notifications is actually broken
[1:37pm] kaldari: hmm, let's see what's going wrong here...
[1:37pm] legoktm: Hm. I'm not seeing any notifications...
[1:37pm] Ironholds: I don't think allowing it to break in more distinct ways is necessarily a helpful use of their time
[1:38pm] fabriceflorin: Aaah, the joys of testing new code on the fly … Sorry you're not seeing notifications yet.
[1:38pm] BarkingFish: I can get messages when I go to my talk page, but clicking the red [1] next to notifications, or clicking the word itself, kills it
[1:38pm] jorm: yeah, i'm not able to review pages. the toolbar doesn't appear.
[1:38pm] Ironholds: jorm: that is also a known known
[1:38pm] kaldari: it looks like the error is from the fact that the User Talk pages didn't exist previously
[1:39pm] Utar: ...reading...
[1:39pm] jorm: ah. we have flagged revs on here.
[1:39pm] Ironholds: kaldari: wait, so it won't display first messages?
[1:39pm] fabriceflorin: kaldari thinks this may be due to the fact that some of you have new user accounts on test2. I am seeing notifications on my account, which was created a while back.
[1:39pm] fabriceflorin: Is anybody seeing notifications at all?
[1:39pm] Ironholds: that sort of undermines the whole "it's aimed at newbs" thing
[1:39pm] kaldari: it's a concurrency issue due to the fact that the slave databases didn't have a record of the page
[1:39pm] Ironholds: well, I'm sorry we cannot show you a functioning version, but thank you to all for identifying a flaw with our plan
[1:40pm] legoktm: I have to step out now and won't be back until its probably over, but thanks for showing us a demo and I'm excited to see this get implemented!
[1:40pm] BarkingFish: translation: "It's buggered - we didn't spot it, glad you did!"
[1:40pm] fabriceflorin: Ironholds: I can assure you all this was not intentional. This is why I had recommended that we create test accounts in advance
[1:40pm] Utar: what does AN/I stand for:?
[1:40pm] kaldari: Should be easy to fix, but won't be able to push it out until later
[1:40pm] Ironholds: Utar: Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents
[1:40pm] Ironholds: fabriceflorin: because of this specific bug?
[1:40pm] Utar: fabriceflorin: ok, thanks
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[1:42pm] Jyothis left the chat room. (Remote host closed the connection)
[1:42pm] kaldari: lemme see if I can fix with a quick live hack...
[1:42pm] fabriceflorin: All right folks, sorry for this inconvenience. Sh*t happens We were trying to make it easier for you guys by going to test2. In the future, you can create a permanent account on this prototype site, where we test all our features in development: http://ee-prototype.wmflabs.org/wiki/Main_Page
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[1:43pm] Ironholds: although note that ee-prototype is not SULd and sometimes breaks
[1:43pm] Utar: http://test2.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Utar ....loaded
[1:43pm] Ironholds: Utar: it's currently breaking, unfortunately
[1:43pm] Utar: ...just one page back..wait please
[1:43pm] fabriceflorin: Here are some workflow diagrams that can show you what typically happens for these user stories I mentioned earlier: https://docs.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/presentation/d/1W8bXGGjgjyW6KMc55WYOtmbLzvjnfhCEXikHNq9rZQA/edit#slide=id.g212c4c5e_1_1
[1:44pm] kaldari: can you guys test again?
[1:44pm] BarkingFish: stercore accidit... A clear case of TV Presenters law here - If anything can go wrong, it will go wrong live.
[1:45pm] kaldari: oops, I was working on test, not test2
[1:45pm] kaldari: ....
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[1:45pm] Utar: Ironholds: ok, got to the bottom finally
[1:45pm] vbamba: Im still not seeing any notifications
[1:46pm] vbamba: Ironholds can you leave me a talk page message?
[1:46pm] fabriceflorin: BarkingFish: I'm afraid you are right. Things they happen. OK, it's working for me again, but we have to go back and leave messages on each other's pages again. Sorry …
[1:46pm] kaldari: BarkingFish: can you check your test2 page again now?
[1:46pm] BarkingFish: Bullseye!
[1:46pm] kaldari: and see if you get an error
[1:46pm] BarkingFish: Except... it's saying I have no notifications.
[1:46pm] Ironholds: vbamba: what account are you using?
[1:47pm] BarkingFish: And I have one clearly sitting there in the red square
[1:47pm] Ironholds: oh dear
[1:47pm] BarkingFish: kaldari, - it's still broken, but in a different way now.
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[1:48pm] vbamba: Ironholds: I'm on test2, username: Vibhabamba
[1:48pm] BarkingFish: Special:Notifications says I have not received any notifications - but there's one as plain as daylight staring at me from the Notifications thing on the top bar
[1:48pm] Utar: either those Full slides or My notification on tesě are lagging me brutally
[1:48pm] bsitu: just triggered the queue again, you should receive it soon
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[1:50pm] kaldari: well, at least we're improving
[1:50pm] GorillaWarfare: Ooh, I've got one
[1:50pm] kaldari: GorillaWarfare: no error this time?
[1:50pm] GorillaWarfare: "All notifications" only shows one edit to my talk page
[1:50pm] GorillaWarfare: But it's something
[1:50pm] kaldari: I cleared out the old ones
[1:50pm] GorillaWarfare: Ah
[1:50pm] fabriceflorin: Cool, GorillaWarfare ! This is still a very rough prototype, and the UI and the phrasing will be changed.
[1:50pm] GorillaWarfare: In that case, it's working
[1:51pm] GorillaWarfare: Very fancy, too
[1:51pm] BarkingFish: kaldari, this is what I see - http://i.imgur.com/TQDqC.jpg
[1:51pm] kaldari: you guys should also try reverting each other
[1:51pm] kaldari: that should generate notifications as well
[1:51pm] fabriceflorin: Thehelpfulone, BarkingFish , legoktm : I also left messages on your talk pages, you should be seeing them now, if all goes well. Top right of the page, next to the word 'Notifications'.
[1:52pm] Thehelpfulone: HMM
[1:52pm] Thehelpfulone: sorry
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[1:52pm] Thehelpfulone: I see the red 4
[1:52pm] BarkingFish: YES! Score
[1:52pm] Thehelpfulone: but https://test2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Notifications still says You have not received any notifications lately.
[1:52pm] BarkingFish: I see all notification now, and their content
[1:52pm] Utar_: had to restart, overlagged
[1:52pm] kaldari: BarkingFish: yay!
[1:52pm] fabriceflorin: BarkingFish: Cool! Glad it finally worked. So sorry it didn't work the first time ...
[1:53pm] BarkingFish: it's slightly odd -still out
[1:53pm] kaldari: guess we need to work on keep the information in sync
[1:53pm] Thehelpfulone: oh there we go, I can only see one notification though when a minute ago I had 4
[1:53pm] Thehelpfulone: does it automatically dismiss them?
[1:53pm] kaldari: keep=keeping
[1:53pm] BarkingFish: Top bar says I have 3 notifications, but I have 4
[1:53pm] Utar left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[1:53pm] BarkingFish: other than that, fine
[1:53pm] kaldari: Thehelpfulone: I had to reset everyone's notifications due to the errors
[1:54pm] Thehelpfulone: ok
[1:54pm] fabriceflorin: Hey, Utar, check your browser now. I just left a message on your talk page.
[1:54pm] bsitu: BarkingFish: top bar shows new notification count
[1:54pm] Thehelpfulone: hmm
[1:55pm] Thehelpfulone: crashed again for me kaldari
[1:55pm] Utar_: Wikimedia Foundation Chyba
[1:55pm] Thehelpfulone: PHP fatal error in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.21wmf4/extensions/Echo/includes/DiscussionParser.php line 57:
[1:55pm] Thehelpfulone: Call to a member function getNamespace() on a non-object
[1:55pm] Utar_: error
[1:55pm] BarkingFish: yeah - it's not gone up though, bsitu - and I'm now at 7 notifications
[1:55pm] Thehelpfulone: when I was trying to leave Oliver a message, evil Okeyes (WMF) https://test2.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Okeyes_(WMF)&action=submit
[1:55pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: got it
[1:55pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: but, "Thanks!" on [[[No page]]]
[1:55pm] Utar_: ?
[1:55pm] BarkingFish: kaldair, Okeyes, Fabrice and utar have all left messages, all new, 7 in total, only 4 show
[1:56pm] legoktm: fabriceflorin: Notification showed up for me (I made it back!)
[1:56pm] BarkingFish: *kaldari
[1:56pm] fabriceflorin: Hey legoktm, glad it worked for you. If you make an edit, I can try to revert it for you ;o)
[1:56pm] kaldari: If I try to go to http://test2.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Thehelpfulone something very strange happens
[1:56pm] BarkingFish: howie messaged me too. I'm not sure why the counter isn't working
[1:57pm] BarkingFish: whoa
[1:57pm] BarkingFish: that is odd
[1:57pm] Utar_: BarkingFish: you should have much more than 4 now
[1:57pm] legoktm: fabriceflorin: done
[1:57pm] fabriceflorin: OK, folks, so it seems that we are finding more bugs than we are demonstrating fully baked features, sadly. So we should probably wind down this test and share some initial impressions about this project in general.
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[1:58pm] BarkingFish: kaldari, it's because the user has revealed their gender in Special:Preferences
[1:58pm] Utar_: legoktm: done
[1:58pm] BarkingFish: I just set mine and my User page does the same now
[1:58pm] kaldari: Thehelpfulone: Sorry about that. It's likely also a concurrency issue (which we never see until we push code to the cluster, unfortunately).
[1:58pm] legoktm: Utar_: Hmm…I'm not seeing anything.
[1:58pm] Thehelpfulone: no problem, I don't mind testing buggy stuff
[1:58pm] Utar_: both My and All notification are running good
[1:58pm] fabriceflorin: BarkingFish, Utar, GorillaWarfare, Thehelpfulone : if you were able to see the Notifications flyout in action, what did you think of the general concept?
[1:59pm] Utar_: that lag came from Googledocs loading, probably, then
[1:59pm] GorillaWarfare: I think it looks quite nice
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[1:59pm] fabriceflorin: Is it useful to be able to see events like talk page messages, mentions, page reviews or edit reversions in this flyout?
[1:59pm] Utar_: Seem good, can you send me more
[1:59pm] Utar_: <
[1:59pm] Utar_: ?
[1:59pm] Utar_: legoktm: and now?
[2:00pm] fabriceflorin: Utar, I just undid one of your edits. Did that show up in your flyout?
[2:00pm] legoktm: Utar_: No….I'm just seeing fabriceflorin's original message
[2:00pm] BarkingFish: the concept itself is wonderful, fabriceflorin - very useful, could do with being a little further to the left in the Top bar, to give it more room and not ram it up against the right side of the page, but not a bad start at all
[2:00pm] kaldari: Utar: Just undid you edit, see if you get a notification
[2:01pm] fabriceflorin: GorillaWarfare: Thanks for the kind words, despite the flimsy prototype ;o) How could this experience be improved, from your standpoint? What types of notifications would you want to receive?
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[2:01pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: how do you see my last action?
[2:02pm] GorillaWarfare: The ones you've already mentioned are great; talk page messages, responses to talk page messages I've left, mentions of my username, reverts of my edits, edits to my watchlisted articles, etc.
[2:02pm] fabriceflorin: BarkingFish: Thanks for your kind words. I'm glad you find this useful and your suggestion to move the flyout to the left is duly noted. How else could we improve the user experience? Which other types of notifications would you like to receive?
[2:02pm] Thehelpfulone: unfortunately I wasn't able to - but I imagine the concept is good, at least from the powerpoint slides I've seen
[2:03pm] Utar_: I like it because... when else Wikimedia officials ask you to make a revert flame war?
[2:03pm] GorillaWarfare: I don't know if this would be kind of stalk-y, but what about notifications when another editor edits? For example, for my Campus Ambassador program, it would be cool to be notified when one of the users edits. That said, I could see how it would enable wikihounding...
[2:03pm] Ironholds: I'm afraid I have to go, guys :(. 5am wakeup time for me tomorrow (we have an election on and I am helping)
[2:03pm] GorillaWarfare: By Ironholds
[2:03pm] fabriceflorin: Hey Utar, how dare you revert my edits ! Seriously, how does the experience work for you? How could we improve the tool? Which other types of notifications would you like to receive?
[2:03pm] GorillaWarfare: +e
[2:03pm] Ironholds: thank you all for your feedback :). Good to see you all again! laters.
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[2:03pm] Utar_: kaldari, fabriceflorin see that, thanks
[2:04pm] fabriceflorin: Ironholds: Thanks, and good luck with your election!
[2:04pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: so you see that as revert?
[2:04pm] kaldari: Thehelpfulone: Sorry about that. We'll have the concurrency bugs shaken out by next time
[2:04pm] legoktm: Utar_: Got your notifications now!
[2:04pm] Utar_: in fact, i added one space
[2:05pm] Isarra: This shiny thing, is there anything to see? I apologise for only wandering in now, but now I'm curious.
[2:05pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: I definitelly like cross wiki system, mostly Wikipedia - Commons way.
[2:05pm] vbamba: In the current Prototype, does it feel like you know what you want to do with a notification or do you have to think about what action you might take because of multiple destinations
[2:05pm] fabriceflorin: Thehelpfulone: Sorry you couldn't see the prototype in action. Judging from what you saw in the slides, any general recommendations for this project? how could we improve the user experience? Which types of notifications would you want to receive on the web? via email?
[2:06pm] BarkingFish: fabriceflorin, with regard to a "flyout", an alternative would be similar to the "NewPagesFeed" toolbar operational on en.wikipedia - where the toolbar can come out from the sides or the bottom of a user's page. Taking into account different skins, where the things in the top bar appear in other places, that may help.
[2:06pm] fabriceflorin: Utar: I saw one revert and one talkpage edit from you.
[2:06pm] legoktm: Is there a way to make things go away in Special:Notifications?
[2:07pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: the revert was not a revert in fact
[2:07pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: it was edit, though used "undo" button
[2:07pm] fabriceflorin: Utar: thanks for the clarification.
[2:07pm] BarkingFish: legoktm, I was about to ask Fabrice the same thing
[2:07pm] Utar_: i was curious how is "revert" detected
[2:08pm] Thehelpfulone: it's not a problem - I'd say that try to make sure pages on the watchlist don't overpower the notifications -- people often have hundreds of pages on their watchlist, and getting notifications for all of them and not for talk page messages etc which are arguably more important would be quite annoying
[2:08pm] BarkingFish: That would be good - have the notifications disappear after you've checked, or have a "Mark as read" thing in the notifications flyout, which cancels the notification indicator
[2:08pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: what are you going to do with a lot of notifications?
[2:08pm] fabriceflorin: legoktm: Currently, the plan is to list the last 7 days worth of notifications in the All-notifications page. We were not planning on providing a tool to delete them, because they would be automatically replaced by new ones. Do you think that a delete tool is important on All notifications?
[2:08pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: will they rott in, say three days?
[2:08pm] BarkingFish: brb
[2:08pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: will they merge together?
[2:09pm] vbamba: There will be visual differentiation in the form of color or bolding
[2:09pm] vbamba: We will also carry simple timstamps
[2:09pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: like "Three users mentioned you", "Five pages from your watchlist were dfeleted"
[2:09pm] legoktm: fabriceflorin: Well I can think of some users who easily get 50+ talk page edits in a day, so 7 days with no way to remove them seems a bit extreme...
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[2:10pm] fabriceflorin: Utar, the current plan is that the flyout would only include up to say, 10 notifications at a time, but that would always be replaced by new ones, in reverse chronological order. The All-notifications list could be much longer and may be structured in ways similar to the watchlist.
[2:10pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: if not, how is the window going to show itself? will if stop in the bottom of monitor? will there be some scroller?
[2:10pm] howief: Utar_: that's exactly the kind of bundling we're considering
[2:10pm] fabriceflorin: Utar: the plan is to have a scrollbar in the flyout, so you can scroll through up to 10 notifications, even if you are only seeing 5 or 6, depending on the height of your screen. Would that work for you?
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[2:11pm] Utar_: howief: if there is revert war at on of our watcched oages, will you get 1 merged or 10 different "revert notifications"?
[2:11pm] howief: Utar_: not sure at this point. we'll have work through a bunch of examples like the one you mention
[2:12pm] fabriceflorin: Utar_: Good question. We will have to figure out a way that we don't overwhelm people with too many notifications at once, and we are looking into ways to "bundle" similar notifications into a single notice.
[2:12pm] Utar_: hey, now it showed a number
[2:12pm] fabriceflorin: OK, folks, a couple final questions: What do you think of this early prototype? What do you like most/least about it?
[2:13pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: I would definitely like some X to hide them from newest nots
[2:13pm] fabriceflorin: Utar: So you would like an X for each item on the flyout? Same for all-notifications?
[2:14pm] Utar_: and some filters to All notfications: type of notification (revert, mention), notifications for some page, maybe?
[2:14pm] legoktm: fabriceflorin: Right now it only shows "Username", can we get it to show "Username (talk | contribs)" like watchlist does?
[2:14pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: on flyout yes, on all no
[2:14pm] legoktm: Probably only useful for Special:Notifications, but it would be helpful
[2:14pm] fabriceflorin: BarkingFish legoktm GorillaWarfare Fluffernutter Thehelpfulone Utar_ : Any final suggestions for improvement? What parts of this project are most relevant to you?
[2:14pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: all I think should always show all
[2:15pm] fabriceflorin: Utar_: Thanks for your helpful clarification. Duly noted.
[2:15pm] legoktm: And I'm assuming that for IP's it would link to their contributions, not a non-existent user page
[2:15pm] Utar_: unless speified by filkters, no ultimate deleting
[2:15pm] GorillaWarfare: How are you handling dynamic IPs?
[2:15pm] Utar_: ^ good question, speaking of newcomers
[2:15pm] fabriceflorin: GorillaWarfare: We would only offer notifications for logged-in users at this point.
[2:15pm] GorillaWarfare: Ah, cool
[2:16pm] GorillaWarfare: Any plans to do something for IPs? Show a message prompting them to register or something?
[2:16pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: why "Fabrice Florin (WMF) posted a new topic "Thanks!" on [[[No page]]]" ?
[2:16pm] BarkingFish: fabriceflorin, to me, ideally, the notifications of talk page messages and such are relevant - especially in that we can see them without getting the annoying yellow bar. That's always a plus.
[2:16pm] Utar_: is that because it was the first edit of that page?
[2:16pm] fabriceflorin: So the goal is to get people to create an account (through tools like Article Feedback), so we can then engage them through notifications. It would be way too hard and inefficient to try to notify anons through IPs or cookies.
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[2:17pm] BarkingFish: But I'm more inclined to come onto this later, fabriceflorin / jorm, when the possibility of cross wiki notification becomes available.
[2:17pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: what about some sort of small icons in Watchlist - notifications about htose pages?
[2:17pm] fabriceflorin: BarkingFish: Thanks! So would you like to replace the yellow bars with this type of notifications, if you could? What about Central Notices? Would you want these to be channeled through Notifications as well?
[2:17pm] BarkingFish: That is where it will be a major benefit - it's annoying to turn up on a wiki you've not been to for a while, only to find you have a shedload of messages you've missed
[2:18pm] BarkingFish: definitely, fabriceflorin, in respect of the yellow bars - central notices though, no.
[2:18pm] Utar_: BarkingFish: I use e-mail for talk pages on lower wikis
[2:18pm] fabriceflorin: BarkingFish: Thanks for the input about the importance of cross-wiki notifications. We hope to provide that feature in our second release in the spring of 2013. (We must crawl before we can walk, walk before we can run … ;o)
[2:18pm] BarkingFish: You could put Geonotices through there, rather than graying them out on the top of the watchlist, which I for one rarely visit
[2:19pm] BarkingFish: i have missed many a geonotice through not looking at my watchlist
[2:19pm] fabriceflorin: BarkingFish: Thanks for the suggestion about Geonotices. We plan to integrate watchlist events once we have made progress with the first batch of notification events, but it's high on the list.
[2:20pm] Utar_: fabriceflorin: are you later going to first spread to other wikis or is it going to be able to take notifications to enwiki even before the other wiki is still without Echo?
[2:21pm] fabriceflorin: OK, folks, thank you so much for joining us for this first conversation about Echo! We're going to wind it down now, but hope that you will join us again in a month or so, when we will have more questions and more things to show.
[2:21pm] BarkingFish: ok, thanks for the demo, even if it took some impromptu hackfixing to get it running.
[2:21pm] BarkingFish: i'll be off back to the regular world now cheers
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[2:22pm] fabriceflorin: Thanks! As always, your feedback is REALLY helpful to us, and we look forward to continuing this discussion soon … Sorry the prototype took a while to get running.
[2:22pm] fabriceflorin: Bye, everyone, and thanks again for your good advice and suggestions!
[2:22pm] Utar_: bye
[2:22pm] howief: bye!
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