IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-12-01

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11:00 StevenW: Hi everyone
11:00 ChanServ has changed mode: +o StevenW
11:01 StevenW: Who's here for office hours?
11:02 Ziko has joined (8fb002ef@gateway/web/freenode/ip.143.176.2.239)
11:03 siebrand: raises his hand.
11:03 StevenW: Hey siebrand
11:04 The_Blade has joined (~chatzilla@wikipedia/The-Blade-of-the-Northern-Lights)
11:04 siebrand: (doing other stuff too, was planning on lurking)
11:04 StevenW: Okay
11:04 StevenW: I'll give it a minute, for others to show
11:05 ice_cream_facial has joined (~Soap@wikipedia/soap)
11:05 jorm: lurks, too.
11:05 Ziko: hello. it happened some weeks ago that our new employee sindy pointed out to me that the registration form for a new account has big flaws, such as that it does not recognize wether the name is already is use...
11:05 Isarra: I'm here! Although I haven't been paying any attention to enwp lately.
11:05 domas has joined (~midom@wikipedia/Midom)
11:05 domas: WHERE IS MY FACEBOOK CONNECT
11:05 MatmaRex has joined (~MatmaRex@wikipedia/matma-rex)
11:06 domas: contributes to login page redesign
11:06 siebrand: greets domas.
11:06 StevenW: Heh
11:06 Isarra: murders domas.
11:06 Isarra: And this is why we need a RESOLVED-MURDERED resolution.
11:06 StevenW: Precisely
11:06 Ziko: hi stevenw
11:06 domas: who is isarra and why isarra thinks murdering me is that easy
11:07 Isarra: Isarra is crazy people who likes pointy things.
11:07 StevenW: Ziko: which wiki was she registering for?
11:07 Isarra: ...and who usually has better grammar than that.
11:07 odie5533 has joined (~odie5533@wikipedia/odie5533)
11:07 Ziko: nl.wp
11:07 Demiurge1000 has joined (~chatzilla@wikipedia/Demiurge1000)
11:07 Hello71 has joined (~Hello71@wikipedia/Hello71)
11:07 Fluffernutter has joined (~Fluffernu@wikipedia/Fluffernutter)
11:08 StevenW: Yeah the current state of things is something of a hodgepodge. There is validation of the username by the form itself, but also by extensions like AntiSpoof, which tries to keep people from having names too similar to other accounts.
11:09 StevenW: If you take a look at the current form on English Wikipedia, we hacked together a test version of client-side validation, which warns people about errors before they submit for the most part. 
11:09 yuvipanda has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
11:10 Isarra: Does antispoof work with SUL, too?
11:10 Ebe123 has joined (~ebe123@wikimedia/Ebe123)
11:10 StevenW: Not sure. 
11:10 Hello71: guessing that it only checks on first signup
11:10 Steven_Zhang has joined (~Steven_Zh@wikimedia/Steven-Zhang)
11:11 Steven_Zhang: Hi.
11:11 Ebe123: Hi
11:11 StevenW: Hi Steven, Ebe123
11:11 StevenW: not sure what you mean "first signup" Hello71?
11:11 StevenW: As in, first signup, rather than auto-creation of the account via SUL?
11:11 Hello71: StevenW: I'm guessing that it only checks against local usernames on the home wiki.
11:11 Ebe123: Sockpuppets
11:12 StevenW: Ah gotcha. 
11:12 Hello71: taking a look at the source
11:13 Hello71: nvm
11:13 Hello71: see https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=28747
11:14 jorm: i thought there was a plan to do full unification?
11:14 jorm: and then it will check SUL by default.
11:14 StevenW: Yeah not sure. We should ask James Forrester on that one. ;) 
11:14 Hello71: #28747 says it checks global DB for spoofing
11:15 ice_cream_facial has left ()
11:15 StevenW: Anyway. The current plan for us is to redesign registration from a visual standpoint, but not muck with the server-side validation. 
11:15 Soapy has joined (~Soap@wikipedia/soap)
11:15 StevenW: We A/B tested a version with decent client-side validation against the current state of affairs, and the measurable gains in people creating new accounts was quite small. 
11:16 Merlissimo has joined (~myirc@wikimedia/Merlissimo)
11:17 StevenW: We'd end up with a few hundred extra registered people on English Wikipedia, for example, but it might take an extra month to make AntiSpoof and the rest of the current set of checks play nice and provide people validation before they submit.
11:17 StevenW: Thankfully we might still get an account creation API, thanks to a volunteer dev who has one waiting in the wings: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/18127/
11:19 StevenW: Ebe123: actually there's nothing automatic that checks for sockpuppets. AntiSpoof and the like just look for usernames that are too similar to existing ones. 
11:19 Ebe123: Ok
11:19 mindspillage has left IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
11:20 StevenW: Has anybody tried out the new form?
11:20 The_Blade: How long ago did you put it in?
11:20 ori-l has joined (atdt@wikipedia/ori-livneh)
11:21 StevenW: It's been at 50% for a couple weeks, but only at 100% since Thursday. We decided to turn the test version on fully to see how it performs at scale, while we build the permanent version.
11:21 Isarra: How does it perform?
11:22 The_Blade: Ah; I was going to say I created a new alt account ~Nov. 8th and I didn't notice anything different.
11:22 Maryana has joined (~justdandy@wikipedia/Accedie)
11:22 The_Blade: goes to test it out now...
11:22 StevenW: Isarra: no new bugs, but the jury is out on whether we'll see a larger or smaller number of additional people registering.
11:23 Isarra: Neat.
11:23 StevenW: Part of the reason we did it was also that since the start of the fundraiser, there have actually been large spikes in new registrations.
11:23 Ziko: which jury?
11:23 StevenW: ha. The jury of data. 
11:23 StevenW: http://toolserver.org/~DarTar/reg2/
11:23 StevenW: You can see the overall numbers from enwp there ^
11:24 StevenW: thinks that if domas wants Facebook Connect, he should submit a patch. ;) 
11:24 StevenW: and see how it goes
11:25 The_Blade: Wow, that /is/ different.  Looks like an improvement to me.
11:25 Steven_Zhang: Brb
11:25 StevenW: Glad to hear it!
11:25 Steven_Zhang has left IRC (Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi)
11:26 domas: stevenw: there're quite a few plugins by now, I think
11:27 Steven_Zhang has joined (~Steven_Zh@wikimedia/Steven-Zhang)
11:27 StevenW: For sure. I was just joking though. There are people who would murder us if implemented Facebook Connect or other social signup buttons.
11:27 Hello71: eww Facebook
11:28 Steven_Zhang: indeed
11:28 gwicke has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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11:28 domas: stevenw: there're amish people out there too
11:29 StevenW: :)
11:29 geniice has joined (~chatzilla@wikipedia/geniice)
11:29 Isarra: Why would it be such a bad thing to use facebook connect and the like if people want the option?
11:29 domas: isarra: exactly
11:29 Ebe123: Facebook?
11:29 Ebe123: No
11:29 Ebe123: !
11:29 KFP has joined (~KFP@wikipedia/KFP)
11:29 Isarra: Although there might be privacy concerns with that...
11:29 domas: isarra: what kind of concerns, if that is voluntary?
11:29 StevenW: Yeah it doesn't jive with the current edition of the privacy policy, AFAIK.
11:29 Isarra: I don't know! But there might be some.
11:29 Isarra: Okay.
11:30 Isarra: That's a reason.
11:30 domas: what kind of?
11:30 domas: technically you can use whatever third party site, with voluntary acceptance of use
11:30 domas: no need to embed objects for everyone
11:30 domas: e.g. load remote assets for login only when someone requests them, set a cookie to use remote auth, etc
11:30 Hello71: but what qualifies as request
11:31 Soapy: facebook integration would be bad
11:31 domas: on login page clicking a button 'sign me in with X site'
11:31 domas: soapy: why?
11:31 Hello71: and imo even a facebook button looks ugly
11:31 Isarra: Mmm, perhaps this would be something well worth discussing, but perhaps this isn't the time or place.
11:31 domas: when is the time and place? :)
11:31 mindspillage has joined (~kat@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001)
11:31 StevenW: The technical parts are far from impossible and could be worked out. But the big "if" is volunteer acceptance.
11:31 Isarra: I have no idea.
11:31 domas: stevenw: if 5% people would use Google, 5% would use twitter and 5% would use facebook to log in
11:32 domas: why do the rest 85% have a way about that?
11:32 domas: a say
11:32 domas: that is
11:32 Soapy: well for one thing facebook officially requires you to use your real name, so that would be bad for anonymity even if voluntary
11:32 Ziko: buttons for social media are not important. but it is important that we do something against barriers for participation. so the new log in form does not make a big difference in numbers, i understood?
11:32 Soapy: also though it would make us a commercial website
11:32 StevenW: This leads me to what we're working on next though.
11:32 domas: soapy: _voluntary_, I go by full name in many places
11:32 JohnLewis has joined (~johnlewis@unaffiliated/johnlewis)
11:32 StevenW: From a volunteer engagement perspective, we don't actually need a ton more accounts registering. 
11:32 domas: people have accounts elsewhere
11:32 StevenW: it would be nice, but what we need is more people registering _who contribute_
11:33 domas: people are getting used to their identities being centralized
11:33 Merlissimo: how would third party usernames look like internally?
11:33 The_Blade: If we wanted that, all we'd have to do is turn off Filter 159
11:33 StevenW: right now, on English Wikipedia for instance, only 25-30% of accounts ever edit. Even once. 
11:33 Isarra: What about on Wiktionary?
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11:33 Isarra: How do the proportions compare cross-project?
11:33 StevenW: Not sure Isarra. 
11:33 Isarra: Might be something to look into.
11:33 StevenW: yes.
11:34 StevenW: Some projects I seem to remember it is higher. Commons for example, where a lot of the people with new accounts are editors from other projects.
11:34 The_Blade: Meta I'd think too.
11:34 StevenW: right
11:34 domas: stevenw: if you want editor percentage to be higher, make login/account form more complicated
11:35 domas: if you want more users, make it easier and more beneficial to create accounts
11:35 domas: what is the aim, again? ;-)
11:35 StevenW: that is quite true. Making it harder does increase the "quality" since only the most dedicated make it through the gauntlet.
11:35 Steven_Zhang: Back.
11:36 domas: this is interesting, some day I will make a summary of most of contributions of people in this debate
11:36 domas: X? NO!
11:36 domas: tells a lot about the community :)
11:36 Soapy: that kind of resistance to change isn't necessarily a bad thing
11:36 domas: stevenw: you want to increase participation/
11:36 domas: ?
11:36 domas: ergh
11:37 domas: make it that it is an action filled with negativism
11:37 Ziko: i wonder why people create an account and then don't use it. possibly, because they see only after registering the wiki syntax in the articles?
11:37 StevenW: We have a little bit of knowledge about the Ziko.
11:37 Hello71: hehe
11:37 StevenW: From past surveys, from looking at stats of where people were on-wiki before registering, and from a new survey.
11:37 Vito_away is now known as Vito
11:38 Soapy: looking at your userpage I see that you work for Facebook
11:38 Steven_Zhang: He does? O_o
11:38 domas: omg, really?
11:38 StevenW: hahah
11:38 Steven_Zhang: >_<
11:38 StevenW: domas also has been around Wikimedia for a little while ;) 
11:39 BlastHardcheese: or to use gadgets and/or set preferences
11:39 StevenW: Anyway, there are quite a few people who are readers or donors, who either just wanted to be "a part of Wikipedia" or thought they would get extra reader-oriented features. 
11:39 StevenW: And there's another contingent of people who sign up with the thought that they might edit some day, and want to have an account just in case.
11:39 domas: or maybe some people forget their passwords
11:40 StevenW: that too
11:40 domas: because they didn't use SSO
11:40 domas: (HAHA!)
11:40 StevenW: the fact that we don't require email, and it's the only way to retrieve your pswd, does mean we get some of that kind of registration
11:41 domas: tbh, I had some of these discussions for years with various people at various wikimedia-related entities
11:41 domas: and usually it is "yeah, it would be a good idea, but community..."
11:41 domas: we should do X! yeah, sure, but community won't allow us!
11:41 domas: thats how you end with community of 1000 people
11:42 StevenW: one of the things about working at the Foundation, is that you either have to guess when that is just not true, or you can go ask people. Like in office hours. ;) 
11:42 StevenW: even though it's a small sample obviously
11:42 domas: anyway, you want to make login easy? make it frictionless
11:42 StevenW: I'll be sure to publish the survey results, since people seem curious about who all these non-editing accounts are. :) 
11:42 domas: I have a non-editing account
11:43 domas: so that people can look at my page and make useless remarks
11:43 StevenW: The people love you domas. Don't deny them their remarks. 
11:43 domas: ok!
11:44 TBloemink has joined (~TB@wikimedia/tbloemink)
11:44 Isarra: Preferences are scary on enwp. Do people ever get scared off by them?
11:45 Isarra: Or do they just sign up and not use them?
11:45 domas: you can't take lots of them away, community will fight you
11:45 Hello71: not *that* scary
11:45 domas: lots of the preferences make your wikimedia experience very very shitty
11:45 Isarra: I counted over 40 gadgets in one horrible long list.
11:45 Isarra: Scary.
11:45 domas: at least nowadays some of them cause a warning
11:45 domas: don't they
11:46 StevenW: I doubt people actually leave in any large numbers because the preferences are horrible. But it certainly would be nice to reduce the clutter.
11:46 jorm: there is actually a thing going on in the developer community to remove preferences.
11:46 StevenW: goes to find that RFC on mediawiki.org
11:46 jorm: for the most part, i want to kill them with fire.
11:46 Hello71: should probably at least reorder them
11:46 StevenW: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Core_user_preferences
11:47 Hello71: are there stats on skin change?
11:47 StevenW: Yes. Though that's a whole 'nother discussion entirely.
11:47 Jan-Bart: JORM! Fancy meeting you here
11:47 Jan-Bart: slips Jorm a dollar
11:47 jorm: hey, it's jan-bart.
11:47 jorm: pockets said dollar.
11:47 domas: I didn't get that greeting from jan-bart
11:47 domas: :(
11:47 Jan-Bart: DOMAS!
11:47 Jan-Bart: YOU !
11:47 Steven_Zhang: yo
11:47 jorm: last time i saw domas i gave him a running, jumping hug.
11:47 Jan-Bart: HERE!
11:47 jorm: it made him uncomfortable.
11:48 domas: you think so?
11:48 Jan-Bart: takes options from Domas… gives them to Jorm
11:48 domas: jan-bart: don't have any, they're RSUs
11:48 domas: grins
11:48 StevenW: Ziko, to answer you from earlier ("so the new log in form does not make a big difference in numbers, i understood?")
11:48 Jan-Bart: takes whatever the #$*&(# RSU's are and gives them to Jorm…. just in case
11:49 StevenW: The answer is that it makes a smallish difference, though at the scale of thousands of registrations that is enough to justify some change, I think.
11:49 gwickwire has joined (~jircii@wikipedia/gwickwire)
11:49 StevenW: The numbers are all at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Account_creation_UX
11:49 Ziko: yes
11:49 domas: once I log in on enwiki, I get this sandbox link at the top
11:49 domas: what is that?
11:49 domas: why would I need a sandbox?
11:49 domas: I prefer diamonds
11:49 gwickwire: Ah, im not late am I?
11:49 StevenW: It's a custom thing for English Wikipedia
11:50 Ebe123: and pt.wiki
11:50 Ziko: do we have numbers about how many people try to make an account, fail because of an already used name, and then leave?
11:50 StevenW: gwickwire: we end in about ~10 mins. 
11:50 jorm: that was a community added gadget, the sandbox link. i hate it.
11:50 domas: jorm: I'd guess
11:50 MatmaRex: the sandbox is a custom thing for most wikis, i think.
11:50 StevenW: Ziko: we measured the overall error rate, but not the specific reason for the error.
11:50 gwickwire: Is the DR one still going to go on, or is this to be the DR one?
11:50 Steven_Zhang: theres still one
11:50 ori-l: Ziko: it also inaugurates what i expect will be a period of split-testing UI changes for the entire login / signup process
11:50 Ziko: jorm, the sandbox really does not make sence because the newbie is not the only one who is editing there
11:50 Isarra: jorm: Stop saying things I agree with. It's freaking me out.
11:50 MatmaRex: it's there for pl.wiki, and i never heard anyone complain about it
11:51 Steven_Zhang: its in 10 mins gwickwire
11:51 StevenW: gwickwire: DR discussion is in about 10 mins.
11:51 Steven_Zhang: :)
11:51 Ebe123: :|
11:51 The_Blade: From the sandboxes of new users, I've probably learned half of all Pakistani business phone numbers
11:51 DarTar: Ziko: we have data on how many people try and register a username too similar to an existing one (triggering anti spoof rules), but that's probably not what you're asking
11:51 Steven_Zhang: Ebe123: StevenW got the spot I wanted :P
11:51 Ebe123: :(
11:51 domas: jorm: what do you think that when I go to my contributions, I have a link that allows to block myself?
11:51 Isarra: And I suppose throwing the Stevens in a pit to fight it out would have been improper.
11:51 domas: and 'email this user'
11:51 StevenW: The_Blade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyu2jAD6sdo
11:51 ori-l: the problem with the sandbox link is that it's interpolated into the toolbar on DOMContentLoaded, so you get this annoying thing where you think you're clicking on on your talk page, but it shifts to the left at the last second and you end up somewhere else.
11:52 Ziko: DarTar, that's going into the direction
11:52 The_Blade: Heh.
11:52 StevenW: :)
11:52 domas: ori-l: thats what community wants you to do
11:52 Isarra: ori-l: And it's there by default!
11:52 domas: so shudup and listen
11:52 Isarra: Isn't it great?
11:52 domas: gosh, I still have my abilities
11:52 Hello71: not really
11:52 domas: pointed out two things and got people discussing about that!
11:52 Hello71: hm?
11:52 ori-l: domas: if i get it removed, you buy me a beer at wikimania 2013
11:53 domas: hello hello71, you must be new here
11:53 Ziko: what was the initial reason for a new login form, a human who saw the flaws or something in the data?
11:53 ori-l: deal?
11:53 DarTar: Ziko: we haven't published error data, we might do so now that we have the new version up at 100%
11:53 jorm: mechanism to start doing a/b testing on post-account creation activities.
11:53 StevenW: I think we have it for the third test, DarTar? Just not on-wiki yet.
11:53 domas: stevenw: how many people don't login after seeing login form?
11:53 domas: the % of login shows vs number of successful logins?
11:54 DarTar: ha - correct, for acux_3
11:54 StevenW: No idea. Yet. 
11:54 domas: stevenw: so why do you have a meeting about it?!
11:54 StevenW: oh you mean registration? 
11:54 DarTar: domas: do you mean sign up or login?
11:54 domas: both
11:54 StevenW: for login we haven't tracked anything (yet), just for signup
11:54 DarTar: we didn't measure login bounce rates
11:54 domas: heh, maybe I should have a session with you about logical event aggregations/statistics/tracking
11:54 domas: 2013 is soon
11:55 domas: and you don't have such data
11:55 DarTar: domas: feel free to swing by for a chat ;)
11:55 domas: (and it would be straightforward to implement)
11:55 DarTar: mind you, we may have some surprising news
11:55 StevenW: Speaking of login, here's the docs about our design ideas for that. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Design/Login
11:56 domas: like what? that you are going to have a bigass monster to answer simple questions?
11:56 DarTar: no, no cephalopods
11:56 DarTar: no nonsense event logging, I don't know if StevenW already mentioned that
11:56 ori-l: domas: i think you're looking for another team :) i do have bounce rate on login form data somewhere -- we collected that for a while
11:57 ori-l: agree you don't need mapreduce to increment a counter
11:57 ChanServ has changed mode: +o TBloemink
11:57 domas: ori-l: I'm talking more about general direction about how to instrument large set of software to have real-time data for things like that
11:57 domas: there's stuff like profiler now that could get you some of that data
11:57 The_Blade_ has joined (~chatzilla@ool-18ba3fd9.dyn.optonline.net)
11:57 domas: but I think technical mediawiki profiling and logical site behavior should be on two different paths
11:58 domas: so you could answer these questions easily
11:58 domas: and not MR'ing
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11:58 The_Blade has left IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
11:58 The_Blade_ is now known as The_Blade
11:58 Steven_Zhang: in a few :)
11:58 ori-l: domas: i'd love to give you a quick overview of what we have in place and what we'd like to build, and to get your input
11:58 domas: sure
11:58 The_Blade has left IRC (Changing host)
11:58 The_Blade has joined (~chatzilla@wikipedia/The-Blade-of-the-Northern-Lights)
11:58 domas: let's chat about it afterwards (or now, elsewhere, if you wish)
11:58 ori-l: where?
11:59 ori-l: #wikimedia-e3
11:59 StevenW: Yeah for anyone who wants to chat, that's our team's channel. We're in there pretty much all the time, since ori-l is a vampire and doesn't sleep. 
11:59 ChanServ has changed mode: +o Steven_Zhang
12:00 StevenW: Okay we've got about two minutes before Steven_Zhang kicks us out. Does anyone have any last questions?
12:00 Ebe123: Now for DR
12:00 StevenW has changed mode: -o StevenW
12:00 guillom is now known as basile
12:00 Steven_Zhang: lol, I'm not kicking people out :)
12:00 Steven_Zhang: that's TBloemink's job ;)
12:00 gwickwire: Aw.. Why not?
12:00 Isarra: ori-l is a vampire, eh? This explains so very much.
12:00 TBloemink: is evil
12:01 gwickwire: is not evil.
12:01 StevenW: Thanks for chatting, all. Please bug us in #wikimedia-e3 or on-wiki if you have further questions/comments.