IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-02-06

From Meta, a Wikimedia project coordination wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search
14:05 superm401: Alright, so who has questions?
14:05 StevenW: Yes, and we never mute the channel.
14:05 techfiz has joined (~techfiz@
14:05 StevenW: The point is to identify team members :)
14:06 Someguy1221 has joined (Johnson@wikipedia/Someguy1221)
14:06 tommorris: so, guided tour looks awesome. sorry, that's not a question, that's just a statement. but hopefully a positive useful statement.
14:06 KTC has joined (~KTC@wikipedia/KTC)
14:06 Maryana: :)
14:06 Ocaasi_: agreed
14:06 StevenW: Thanks Tom, Ocaasi.
14:06 Susan: The teams encourage an us v. them mentality.
14:07 Isarra: Attitudes from folks in particular can encourage that more.
14:07 StevenW: Tom this is really just the early stages
14:07 StevenW: we're doing two things to try and develop it further
14:07 Susan: What happened to LastModified?
14:07 superm401: Does anyone have a tour they'd lke to write?
14:07 Susan: Oh, is this session only about GuidedTours?
14:07 Susan: Or E3 generally?
14:08 superm401: E3 generally
14:08 tommorris: so, I'm pretty sure English Wikinews might want one. I might write it.
14:08 Susan: What happened to LastModified?
14:08 Someguy1221 has left ()
14:08 StevenW: Generally
14:08 StevenW: When we finish a round of experimenting with something
14:08 DarTar has left IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
14:08 Ocaasi_: could guided tours be integrated with interactive editing, where a user could for example be presented with a task in a sandbox and then be guided through it?
14:08 Susan: Ocaasi_: You mean navigating the user through the edit process/window?
14:09 StevenW: we stop, look at the results, and then decide the next step based on what we can tell from the data
14:09 superm401: Ocassi_, yes, we'll be doing something similar soon with a gettingstarted tour we have in place.
14:09 Maryana has left IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
14:09 Ocaasi_: sure, mixing guidance with an editing task of some type, but not on live articles
14:09 Maryana has joined (~Maryana@wikipedia/Accedie)
14:09 Susan: StevenW: What happens after?
14:09 Maryana: grr, wifi
14:09 superm401: Ocassi_, sure, there's no requirement it be on a live article.
14:09 Susan: If the experiment is successful, for example.
14:09 StevenW: See what I just said
14:09 StevenW: The results from the A/B test of LastModified clearly suggested that interesting things were going on, but it wasn't clear that it drove editing of articles
14:09 Isarra: How do you determine if something would take more effort to experiment with than to just develop directly and deploy?
14:10 Ocaasi_: great superm401, i'd be very interested in that capability
14:10 Susan: StevenW: But it was generally useful. Any chance it could be deployed?
14:10 Maryana: are we talking about lastmodified? it's now live on mobile web :)
14:10 StevenW: Sure, but we're probably not going to spend cycles on it officially
14:10 DarTar has joined (~DarTar@wikimedia/DarTar)
14:10 Susan: Maryana: Yeah.
14:10 Susan: StevenW: I'm confused on the path forward for such projects/code, then.
14:11 Susan: It seems like it's been sent to purgatory.
14:11 tommorris: Isarra: I'd suggest that experimentation is worthwhile doing anyway for the purpose of getting the community onside. (not that when you do provide comprehensive statistics, it makes much difference to people getting shouty about things. see: AFT5)
14:11 StevenW: It has, if you want to put it that way.
14:11 Susan: tommorris: Let's try to avoid a discussion of E2's work. :-)
14:11 StevenW: But that's how prioritization works. You don't make everything to test a permanent feature just because you tested it out. 
14:11 tommorris: (Oh, you have comprehensive high-quality statistics? BUT I HAVE ANECDOTES!)
14:11 Isarra: With larger things, certainly, but what about smaller things - things that just look better, or things that would be helpful but don't really affect much?
14:12 Susan: tommorris: Right. Actual experience usually trumps manipulated stats when people are trying to evaluate something. Shockingly. ;-)
14:12 superm401: tommorris, re an English Wikinews tour, the goto doc for now is
14:12 superm401: I am going to keep improving that, and add example code.
14:12 Susan: > Hoever
14:12 StevenW: Ocaasi_: did you get your earlier question answered?
14:12 StevenW: "could guided tours be integrated with interactive editing, where a user could for example be presented with a task in a sandbox and then be guided through it?"
14:13 Susan: StevenW: superm401 answered it, yeah.
14:13 StevenW: k, just checking
14:13 techfiz has left IRC (Quit: Leaving)
14:13 Susan: The answer is "yes, and it doesn't have to be on live articles."
14:13 StevenW: yep
14:13 Susan: Are there plans to make a tour GUI?
14:13 Susan: Or will it be MediaWiki namespace editing for the indefinite future?
14:13 superm401: Susan, a GUI for making tours?
14:14 StevenW: superm401: had a pretty interesting idea on that front...
14:14 Susan: Yes.
14:14 Maryana: heh. there's no such thing as a small thing when it comes to mediawiki
14:14 Maryana: i do think small interface design changes are very, very important, isarra (obviously!)
14:14 Maryana: but i don't think it's in the scope of e3 to do them unless they directly lead to a higher active editor number
14:14 superm401: It is MW namespace for now.
14:14 StevenW: superm401: do you want to describe the idea about auto-generating tours?
14:14 superm401: However, you can already have the tour content (descriptions) outside MW namespace.
14:14 Susan: Maryana: Sure, but I'm left wondering what the path forward is for projects like LastModified ,then. E2?
14:14 Ocaasi_: StevenW: yes, thanks
14:14 superm401: Which we're actually doing on the test tour already.
14:14 Isarra: So how do you determine if it is in scope to test it at all, vs just throwing the idea at someone else...
14:14 Isarra: Maryana:
14:14 Ironholds has left ()
14:14 StevenW: The related bug for superm401's idea is
14:14 Isarra:  ^66
14:14 superm401: StevenW, sure.
14:14 Isarra: smacks her keyboard.
14:15 superm401: It was more ori-l's idea originally.
14:15 Maryana: susan:
14:15 superm401: But it's basically similar to an Office macro.
14:15 Susan: Maryana: Right. Seems to have stalled/died. :-/
14:15 Maryana: i'm working on fixing that
14:15 superm401: You click through and it generates most of the tour based on your actions, then you fill in descriptions.
14:15 Susan: Oh, cool. :-)
14:15 superm401: This is still a hypothetical, though.
14:15 Ocaasi_: could some of those ideas like lastmodified be turned into gadgets?
14:15 Susan: Maryana: Hmm, right. I remember this now. The changes were and all done in JS.
14:15 tommorris: so on GuidedTour, question: do I need Foundation people to turn it on, or can I just plough into having one on en.wikinews? (if I get consent from other users, obvs.)
14:16 tommorris: the docs don't quite make it clear
14:16 superm401: tommorris, yes, it needs to be installed.
14:16 StevenW: tommorris: we have to enable the extension but once it's there you can play around 
14:16 Susan:
14:16 Susan: It's not enabled by default.
14:16 Isarra: Is there a pipeline for successful experiments to be developed in full?
14:16 tommorris: so, bugzilla presumably?
14:16 Susan: (Grep "UseGuidedTour".)
14:16 Susan: Yes.
14:16 AnjaJ_WMDE has left IRC (Quit: AnjaJ_WMDE)
14:16 superm401: Any wiki can request it using the normal mechanism,
14:17 superm401: then Extension setup.
14:17 StevenW: Isarra: yes. We intentionally decided not to move forward on LastModified. 
14:17 Susan: superm401: That's not right.
14:17 Thehelpfulone: extension setup? I thought it was site requests
14:17 Isarra: StevenW: So where do they go?
14:17 Susan:
14:17 Isarra: Who takes over?
14:17 Thehelpfulone: Extension setup: New extensions to get installed or enabled. Just like 'Site configuration' but more specific.
14:17 Thehelpfulone:  
14:17 StevenW: No one, unless they want to. 
14:17 superm401: Susan, what's not right?
14:18 Susan: superm401: Extension requests is for new extension requests, I think.
14:18 Susan: Like having an extension written.
14:18 StevenW: Ah.
14:18 superm401: Oh, my mistake.
14:18 Susan: The Meta-Wiki link describes the process for requesting the installation of an extension.
14:18 Isarra: So basically if something is a success, it is tossed into a pile and can either be picked up or rot at that point?
14:18 Susan: Success or not harmful, yeah.
14:18 StevenW: No no
14:18 Susan: LastModified seems to fall into the latter category.
14:19 superm401: Ocassi_, yes, LastModified couldl be done as a gadget.
14:19 Susan: Ocaasi_: Yes, the problem with gadgets is that they don't have global versions.
14:19 Susan: So they're kind of nightmarish for widescale deployment.
14:19 superm401: Susan, right.
14:20 StevenW: If we consider an experiment to be a success, we are responsible for moving forward with it. We didn't consider LastModified successful enough to do so, because our job is to doing things that really clearly bring in new editors. If a feature is "nice" but doesn't accomplish that goal, we generally don't spend more time on it except to make sure we clean up after our experiment. 
14:20 superm401: Though that is part of Gadgets 2.0, which Terry and I are interested in pushing forward again.
14:20 StevenW: is to do*
14:20 Susan: superm401: It's tied fairly closely to global user preferences.
14:20 Susan: Which also don't exist yet.
14:20 superm401: Susan, I don't think that's a requirement.
14:20 Isarra: So you do development as well as experiements?
14:20 Susan: It'd be pretty silly to have one without the other.
14:21 superm401: It would still be a significant incremental improvement.
14:21 StevenW: anyway, wherever you request it, we'd be happy to add GuidedTour to projects other than Wikipedia, if Tom or anyone else wants
14:21 superm401: Plus there is other good stuff in Gadgets 2.0.
14:21 Susan: Right.
14:21 Isarra: And so if something makes users happier without actually directly affecting their engagement by themselves, that's a failure?
14:22 spagewmf has joined (~spage@wikimedia/spage)
14:22 StevenW: It's not enough of a success to necessarily devote more paid staff hours to, testing, refactoring and deploying permanently.
14:23 Maryana: shiny balls are cool and shiny, but we can't spend a bunch of donor money chasing them if we're not solving the editor retention problem :)
14:23 Isarra: But it could? Happier users generally help in general, and little niggling issues can still add up, after all.
14:24 D_ has joined (
14:24 Susan: Maryana: There's an editor retention problem?
14:25 Susan: It really has nothing to do with spending donor money. It's just outside this particular team's scope.
14:25 Isarra: Okay.
14:25 tommorris: A long sensuous massage would make me feel better. But this is about editor engagement, darn it!
14:25 Isarra: Is it possible for community members to propose new experiments?
14:26 StevenW: Okay, does anybody else have questions? We're almost half an hour in... 
14:26 Jyothis has left IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
14:26 superm401: Isarra, yes.
14:27 superm401: Has everyone tried one or both of the current tours on English Wikipedia?
14:27 tommorris: StevenW: what are currently pie-in-the-sky experiments that are floating around in your heads?
14:27 Susan: ^
14:28 Susan: That was roughly my other question.
14:28 Isarra: I ran into a tour when searching for something unrelated as an IP the other day.
14:28 Susan: Roadmap, &c.
14:28 StevenW: Goood question. 
14:28 superm401: Isarra, you did?
14:28 AnjaJ_WMDE has joined (
14:28 superm401: There shouldn't really be anything linking to them yet.
14:28 StevenW: So probably the biggest pie-in-the-sky engineering project is a recommender system.
14:28 Isarra: superm401: Wasn't linking, just popped up. I'll submit a bug later if I remember.
14:28 StevenW: We have Special:GettingStarted, which we're throwing at all new English Wikipedians
14:28 AnjaJ_WMDE has left IRC (Client Quit)
14:29 StevenW: Right now we know it's getting more people to click edit, and save a first edit.
14:29 Isarra: superm401: Also, the implied other part of my question about proposals was how?
14:29 StevenW: But the implementation is hackish.
14:29 Isarra: Is hackish enough to test it?
14:29 StevenW: Yes
14:29 superm401: Besides here, or Bugzilla.
14:29 tommorris: StevenW: sort of SuggesstBot-on-crack? ;)
14:29 Fluffernutter has left IRC (Quit: hometime)
14:30 Susan: Yes, exactly.
14:30 StevenW: It's dependent on SuggestBot, which goes to a cleanup category from Wikipedia:Backlog, does some filtering on articles in that category, and then sticks them in a  template
14:30 superm401: Isarra, we use Trello for some stuff, but currently not everyone can create issues.
14:30 Susan: SuggestBot has issues.
14:30 Isarra: So use mailing lists or bugzilla to propose experiments?
14:30 Nettrom: Susan: feel free to let me know about them, I might be able to help
14:30 superm401: Isarra, correct.
14:30 StevenW: What we really need to do next, other than make that Special page more interesting to look at, is build the logic for gathering tasks and filtering them in to the extension
14:30 superm401: Or here.
14:31 Susan: Nettrom: Is its source code public?
14:31 StevenW: It partially is.
14:31 Isarra: superm401: Looks to be a good way to ensure you don't get any. :P
14:31 Susan: I think that's the primary issue.
14:31 Nettrom: Susan: currently only the parts that run Community Portal/Opentask as well as picking the GettingSTarted articles
14:31 superm401: Isarra, where would you prefer?
14:31 StevenW: In the long run, we could rework that GettingStarted special page in to something more like a dashboard of todo items of different types, which updates automatically and learns a little bit from the types of articles that people actually click on and edit.
14:32 Susan: Nettrom: Why not everything?
14:32 Nettrom: Susan: we do plan to work on releasing more of the code, probably throughout the year
14:32 Susan: Ah, okay.
14:32 superm401: Isarra, I think the mailing list (for bigger ideas) and Bugzilla (for smaller ones) is reasonable.
14:32 Susan: Good to hear.
14:32 Isarra: superm401: Something on-wiki would be most inviting, but not necessarily worth doing.
14:32 Nettrom: Susan: we've still got some Perl-scripts around, I want to have everything in Python, but might start releasing pieces before that
14:32 Isarra: Otherwise it's just... eh, they clearly don't care, whatever.
14:33 Susan: Nettrom: Even if the code is messy, the sooner the better. :-)
14:33 Isarra: To be fair I'm not sure it'd be worth caring, though.
14:33 Nettrom: Susan: good point, I'll keep that in mind :)
14:33 StevenW: in terms of roadmap, our rough plans for the next few months are at
14:33 tommorris: just proposed GuidedTour for Wikinews:
14:33 superm401: Isarra, you can make on-wiki suggestions at
14:33 StevenW: tommorris: \o/ thanks!
14:33 Susan: Cue Brian McNeil rage in 3... 2...
14:33 Isarra: Would folks check that?
14:34 superm401: Isarra, yes, you can see StevenW and Maryana check it.
14:34 Isarra: Okay.
14:34 Isarra: Do folks every add anything?
14:34 StevenW: There's a bunch of ideas there from when we first announced the team. 
14:34 StevenW: But not a huge amount lately.
14:35 Isarra: Ah.
14:35 StevenW: A lot of the feedback we get tends to be ways to improve current experiments, like removing BLPs from the Special:GettingStarted list or bugs in GuidedTour for Monobook. 
14:35 Isarra: Cool.
14:35 superm401: tommorris,  yeah, that's really cool.
14:35 Isarra: Do you do any coding in php?
14:36 superm401: Isarra, yes
14:36 superm401: Even though we use a lot of JS, PHP has a key role.
14:36 Isarra: How so?
14:36 superm401: For instance, we register hooks to conditionally add the GuidedTour output (so we don't bloat the page on regular page views).
14:36 tommorris: why do we need GuidedTour for Monobook? If you are running Monobook, presumably you know enough about the project you are editing that you don't need a guided tour.
14:36 tommorris: seems like a waste of resources fixing that kind of thing
14:37 superm401: We also use hooks for Special:GettingStarted, and the special page itself requires PHP.
14:37 superm401: tommorris, we're optimizing mainly for Vector.
14:37 Isarra: The hooks are skin-specific?
14:37 superm401: Isarra, no.
14:37 superm401: However, GT positions itself by attaching to page elements.
14:37 Susan: You can create fake Special pages in JS.
14:37 StevenW: in this case, the bug was in the test tour, which experienced folks do see
14:37 superm401: Susan, I know, but it's nt as clean.
14:38 Isarra: Susan: Like newpagesfeed?
14:38 superm401: There's an issue where it goes off screen where it attaches to the search box in Monobook.
14:38 Susan: Isarra: Sort of.
14:38 superm401:
14:38 superm401: That's the Monobook issue.
14:39 Isarra: Ah.
14:40 heatherw has left IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
14:40 spagewmf: If people can't find their way back to GS, onboarding basically ends.
14:41 Isarra: GS?
14:41 StevenW: sorry, Getting Started.
14:41 spagewmf: Prior to the dashboard, might it be worth putting something on the user's talk page after they make an edit from GettingStarted?  "You can return to [[GettingStarted]], there are more fixup tasks at [[Community Portal]], you can look for editing help at the [[TeaHouse]]".
14:41 StevenW: first stab at a fix for that
14:41 superm401: spagewmf, it is linked from the last step of gettingstarted.
14:41 StevenW: is that ^
14:41 superm401: Special:GettingStarted that is.
14:42 heatherw has joined (~hwalls@
14:42 heatherw has left IRC (Changing host)
14:42 heatherw has joined (~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls)
14:42 StevenW: we don't actually know at this point how many people who complete a getting started edit do want to go back for more, versus those who want something more challenging or just different
14:42 protonk has joined (~protonk@wikipedia/Protonk)
14:43 Susan: It's not an easy balancing act.
14:43 Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
14:43 Maryana: protonk!
14:43 Maryana: hi :)
14:43 StevenW: not at all. 
14:43 Susan: Most people don't register to fix other peoples' typos.
14:43 Isarra: From the user tests, it looked like some found the getting started edits to be too hard at times as well. Is that improved now?
14:43 StevenW: hopefully we'll be able to get a better feel for that by measuring how many ppl actually click and go back via the tour
14:43 protonk: Maryana: Hey!
14:43 Susan: They register to make an article about their non-notable boy band.
14:43 Susan: Or whatever.
14:43 Isarra: Susan: Was that why you registered?
14:43 StevenW: Those people probably don't click on getting started tasks
14:43 Susan: Pretty much.
14:43 Maryana: susan's boy band is totally notable.
14:43 superm401: Susan, that is covered by the return to button.
14:43 Isarra: Are they sexy?
14:44 superm401: Which we made more prominent in Special:GettingStarted.
14:44 Susan: Super-sexy.
14:44 Susan: superm401: Right. I'm just speaking generally about trying to engage users.
14:44 Susan: I'm not sure most users want to be engaged.
14:44 Susan: A few do.
14:44 tommorris: so, any plans for improving the process of adding references?
14:45 Thehelpfulone: well how will they figure out how to do stuff Susan if we don't tell them?
14:45 StevenW: tommorris: we should write a tour
14:45 D_: So question: If a user immediately dismisses GettingStarted after registering, how easy is it for them to get back to it?
14:45 Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
14:45 Thehelpfulone: (we are the exceptions of course..)
14:45 Susan: Thehelpfulone: By figuring it out.
14:45 tommorris: a tour is okay, but making the process itself simpler would be good too...
14:45 Susan: Thehelpfulone: How many exceptions make a rule?
14:45 Isarra: A tour won't fix a broken process.
14:45 StevenW: D_ not easy at the moment, since they'd have to type Special:GettingStarted, which they probably wouldn't know to do
14:45 spagewmf: D_ back button, it's in history, but yeah.
14:45 Isarra: Better than nothing in the meantime, but you need to fix the process. Or someone does.
14:46 Susan:
14:46 Thehelpfulone: We figured it out but now I think people are finding it too hard to figure stuff out now..
14:46 Susan: I don't know what I'm supposed to do there.
14:46 StevenW: Yes, we are trying to think about ways to give them a clear link back without adding to the clutter of the sidebar or personal tools menu (in the upper right)
14:46 Susan: Thehelpfulone: What's changed?
14:47 valeriej has left IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
14:47 Susan: Hmmm.
14:47 Isarra: Special:GettingStarted assumes folks know how and what to edit. Do they?
14:47 spagewmf: If not user talk page, you could put calls to action in Special:Login if user has few edits. But I think improved notifications will help
14:47 Susan:
14:47 superm401: tommorris, are you familiar with
14:47 Thehelpfulone: Susan, we're trying harder to make it easier for people to figure stuff out?
14:48 superm401: This is something I've worked on, not an E3 project.
14:48 Reedy has left IRC (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
14:48 StevenW: It doesn't assume that. I
14:48 Susan: Thehelpfulone: If you say so.
14:48 Susan: It kind of assumes that.
14:48 Susan: It'd be better if it could point out particular issues.
14:48 StevenW: It just does a poor job of enticing people who don't have any clue what to do or how. For now.
14:48 Susan: Not just say "there might be an issue on this page."
14:49 tommorris: superm401: ProveIt has some issues. it makes the edit page a lot slower to load. ;)
14:49 Reedy has joined (~quassel@wikimedia/
14:49 superm401: tommorris, it could probably be optimized.
14:49 Susan: Also, nobody's concerned about <>?
14:49 Susan: That seems to be verging on completely unacceptable territory.
14:49 superm401: Susan, going to revert one edit.
14:49 StevenW: The basic thing we need to figure out with the landing page design, is do we need to focus on one article and its issues, or try presenting a variety of different things to do
14:49 Susan: That's a live article.
14:49 superm401: tommorris, one possibility is integrating into VE in the future.
14:49 StevenW: There are some thoughts about the landing page design at
14:50 superm401: They have told me they'll let me know when there's an API.
14:50 Susan: superm401: I think every GS-related edit there is bad.
14:50 StevenW: including mockups of what we're changing it to soon, if anyone has feedback
14:50 superm401: Susan, it will get fixed.
14:50 Susan: I wonder what other articles have been hit. :-/
14:50 Isarra: Will it still be fixed-width and left-aligned?
14:50 Susan: sbm
14:50 superm401: A lot of people don't make perfect first edits.  I know I didn't.
14:50 Isarra: Why is so much ee and e3 stuff fixed-width and left aligned, anyway?
14:50 superm401: That's part of why we have the "new editor getting started" tags.
14:51 superm401: Susan, is good, maybe others too.
14:52 Susan: I think that's poor grammar.
14:52 KTC has left ("Leaving")
14:52 Susan: Carpetmuncherrug
14:52 Susan: Classy.
14:52 Susan:
14:53 Susan:
14:53 StevenW: If people want to hang out and inspect the stream of edits at all day, I could do that :)
14:53 esreskkesketske has joined (esreskkesk@
14:54 Jyothis has joined (~Jyothis@wikipedia/Jyothis)
14:54 superm401: Susan, I will ask that Carpetmuncherrug be indeffed (username block + vandalism).
14:54 Susan: StevenW: Well, someone should be inspecting it... these users are making a mess of articles.
14:54 StevenW: Not all...
14:54 superm401: We should bear in mind that some of these editors would vandalise either way, and this makes it easier to monitor.
14:54 D_: But, are they making more of a mess than new users who haven't gone through GS
14:54 esreskkesketske: i need help
14:55 superm401: And StevenW is right.  There are definitely positive edits.
14:55 D_: Because that would be an indication of whether the process helps or harms Wikipedia as whole
14:55 esreskkesketske: help
14:55 StevenW: BTW, there is a dashboard by DarTar that shows the daily number of edits from GettingStarted, mobile, and VisualEditor
14:55 StevenW:
14:55 Susan: >  [[Mines of Paris underground quarries of Paris]]
14:55 StevenW: esreskkesketske: you should ask in #wikipedia-en-help
14:55 superm401: D_, yes, it's something we're monitoring.
14:56 esreskkesketske: since its OFFICE channel, how to rotate table 90 degrees in MS office word ?
14:56 Susan: I lol'd.
14:56 Ocaasi_: esreskkesketske: this is not Microsoft office's channel, we're working on Wikipedia
14:56 Maryana: it looks like you're trying to start a resume...
14:56 Maryana: :)
14:56 esreskkesketske: there is no microsoft office channel
14:56 StevenW: In other news, we're adding Clippy to Wikipedia.
14:56 D_: Random thought: Is this channel publicly logged?
14:56 StevenW: yes
14:57 StevenW: during office hours anyway
14:57 Jyothis has left IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
14:57 Susan: StevenW: It'd be funnier if I thought you were kidding.
14:57 esreskkesketske: if you write for wikipedia you have to use word editors like office
14:57 Jyothis has joined (~Jyothis@wikipedia/Jyothis)
14:57 Susan: Sounds about right.
14:57 StevenW: I think this is a sign we should wrap up ;)
14:57 Ocaasi_: esreskkesketske: sorry, this isn't a great time for general questions, please visit #wikipedia-en-help to ask anything about Wikipedia
14:58 Excirial has left IRC (Quit: zzzzzz time)
14:58 tommorris: isn't sure if trolling or serious. Either way, it's mildyl amusing.
14:58 superm401: Actually, VE is using Word is a conceptual model (not in terms of actual code, but goal).
14:59 esreskkesketske: help! im so helpless
14:59 StevenW has set topic: IRC office hours --
14:59 Isarra: Are there any plans to add more guidance to getting started?
14:59 superm401: Isarra, the actual page?
14:59 fabriceflorin has left ()
14:59 superm401: I think Special:GettingStarted is being kept minimal on purpose.
14:59 StevenW: Depends on what you mean by guidance.
14:59 Isarra: Once they're on the page linked from that, more.
14:59 awjr is now known as awjr1
14:59 Isarra: What to... actually do.
14:59 awjr1 is now known as awjr
14:59 awjr is now known as awjr_afk
14:59 StevenW: Yes. That's why there's a getting started tour being added tomorrow.
15:00 StevenW: you can try it out early by clicking one of those articles and adding ?tour=gettingstarted
15:00 Isarra: Will that help with telling them what to do with the particular article?
15:00 StevenW: be careful though, because forcing the tour means you have to dismiss it or it will appear on every article until you check "end tour"
15:00 Susan: ?tour=office2010
15:00 Isarra: Them fixy tags are pretty unhelpful.
15:00 StevenW: :)
15:01 Susan: I edit via
15:01 Susan: Is there a tour for that?
15:01 Isarra: Write one.
15:01 Susan: gets Post-Its.
15:01 D_: Speaking of writing tours, are the existing tours documented or listed anywhere on enwp?
15:01 D_: I've seen the general documentation on the mediawiki wiki only
15:02 Maryana: ok, have to run
15:02 Maryana: nice chatting with y'all
15:02 superm401: D_, it's at
15:02 Susan: Bye.
15:02 StevenW: D_ you want to see the code for the tours on enwiki?
15:02 Isarra: hugs Maryana.
15:02 superm401: We will add more docs once gettingstarted rolls out tomorrow.
15:02 Maryana: find me in #wikimedia-mobile or #wikimedia-e3
15:02 D_: StevenW: That would work, yes
15:02 superm401: We don't want to copy the code, but we can link to the git repo directly.
15:03 Maryana: hugs back  :)
15:03 Maryana has left ()
15:03 Nettrom: been fun hanging with y'all, see you around somewhere
15:03 Nettrom has left IRC (Quit: quit)
15:04 superm401: Don't make Help:Guided tours too long yet.
15:04 superm401: It's embedded into the tour currently (see ).
15:04 Susan: NP: "If I Had A Hammer" by Peter, Paul and Mary from "Peter, Paul and Mary"
15:04 superm401: The page that is embedded will be separated out from the main page tomorrow.
15:05 StevenW: Forgive the long link, but D_ they're at;a=tree;f=modules/tours;h=f32be892ee13f641aa0a30bcf1ff7f3be1a87eaa;hb=cc8f8305fcb4e69f92dec5a5f83002f031ff66d8
15:06 StevenW: okay, I should head out as well. 
15:06 Isarra: I apologise for being such a pain in the arse.
15:06 StevenW: Likewise. 
15:06 StevenW: huggles Isarra
15:06 superm401: Thanks everyone.  It's been great talking to you.
15:06 superm401: There were some great questions.
15:07 StevenW: Especially the ones about MSFT Office
15:07 Isarra: I was rivetted.
15:07 StevenW has changed mode: -v superm401
15:07 StevenW has changed mode: -o StevenW
15:08 superm401 has left ("Bye!")
15:08 tommorris: StevenW: thanks for all the work you guys are doing. keep it up!
15:08 StevenW: Thanks Tom :)
15:08 awjr_afk is now known as awjr
15:09 StevenW: I'll keep an eye on the Wikinews discussion, btw.