IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-05-08b
Topic: Discuss first release of Notifications (Echo) (see blog post), with a focus on New Message Indicator.
Hosts: Fabrice Florin, Ryan Kaldari and Vibha Bamba
Time: 20:00-21:40 UTC
Timestamps are in Pacific Standard Time (IST)
[1:00pm] fabriceflorin: Hi folks, we're about to start our office hours chat about Notifications. Anyone here for that chat?
[1:01pm] Ignatzmice joined the chat room.
[1:02pm] Ignatzmice: ,
[1:02pm] fabriceflorin: Hello Ignatzmice, thanks for joining our notifications chat!
[1:02pm] Ignatzmice: Hey
[1:02pm] fabriceflorin: Is anyone here for the discussion of Notifications?
[1:02pm] James_F: (Hey.)
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[1:02pm] • marktraceur is lurking
[1:02pm] fabriceflorin: Hi James_F, thanks for joining us~
[1:03pm] fabriceflorin: HI YairRand ! Are you here for the chat of notifications?
[1:03pm] kaldari: howdy
[1:03pm] YairRand: yes
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[1:04pm] Edokter: good evening
[1:04pm] lwelling: fabriceflorin I am
[1:04pm] kaldari: Edokter: Just pinged you about the Notifications gadget, BTW
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[1:04pm] Edokter: I am who I say I am
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[1:04pm] legoktm: hi
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[1:05pm] fabriceflorin: Hi everyone! Welcome to our chat about Notifications! I would like to introduce two members of our team for Notifications: developer kaldari and designer vbamba.
[1:05pm] fabriceflorin: Hello Edokter, thanks for joining us!
[1:06pm] kaldari: Edokter: looks like you can add rights=purge to the gadget definition to fix the error
[1:06pm] fabriceflorin: Also want to introduce another engineer on our team: lwelling
[1:06pm] kaldari: since that right is only available to logged in users
[1:06pm] Edokter: I need to make a small change to the gadget.
[1:06pm] Ignatzmice: Thehelpfulone just did
[1:06pm] fabriceflorin: Is anyone else here for the IRC chat about Notifications?
[1:06pm] Thehelpfulone: Edokter, yep, just fixed it
[1:07pm] kaldari: Thehelpfulone: Thanks!
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[1:07pm] fabriceflorin: OK, let's get started. We propose to cover these topics during this hour-long IRC chat: 1. project update, 2) New message indicators and 3) next steps. Here's a proposed agenda: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notifications#Office_hours_chat_on_IRC
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[1:07pm] Thehelpfulone: no problem
[1:07pm] Edokter: I dont think purge is the right one, IP can purge
[1:07pm] Edokter: it should be edit-minor
[1:07pm] Ignatzmice: Yeah, I was wondering
[1:07pm] Thehelpfulone: Edokter, are you sure? it's not under all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ListGroupRights
[1:08pm] sumanah: !logs
[1:08pm] fabriceflorin: Hello Thehelpfulone and sumanah ! Here's our proposed agenda for this chat:
[1:08pm] fabriceflorin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notifications#Office_hours_chat_on_IRC
[1:08pm] legoktm: fabriceflorin: hopefully there will be time for a Q/A at the end?
[1:08pm] Thehelpfulone: feel free to tweak it to minoredit it you'd prefer
[1:08pm] sumanah: ah here we are http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/20130508.txt
[1:09pm] fabriceflorin: First, a project update: we deployed Notifications (formerly called Echo) last Tuesday, with these features: badge, flyout, archive, preferences. Learn more here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Echo_(Notifications)#First_release
[1:09pm] fabriceflorin: They include these first notifications (welcome, talk, reverts, reviews, links, mentions): http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Echo_(Notifications)/Feature_requirements#First_Notifications
[1:10pm] fabriceflorin: Yes, of course, there will be Q&A throughout, legoktm !
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[1:10pm] vbamba: hello
[1:10pm] fabriceflorin: Here are the first stats from our dashboards: http://toolserver.org/~dartar/en/echo/
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[1:10pm] vbamba: Hello Everyone, Im the UX designer on Echo
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[1:11pm] fabriceflorin: We served over 100,800 notification events in our first week (approximate number).
[1:11pm] legoktm: what fits under "system"?
[1:11pm] sumanah: I'm curious - any hypotheses about the reason for the dips and rises?
[1:11pm] fabriceflorin: About 40% of these were system messages (welcome, notifications), and about 37% were talk messages.
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[1:12pm] Edokter: Is "editminor" correct, or "edit-minor"? I cannot see either on http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:User_rights#List_of_permissions
[1:12pm] YairRand: I understand that the orange "new messages" bar was removed because of Notifications? are there plans to build an equivalently attention-grabbing notification for talkpage modifications into echo?
[1:12pm] Ignatzmice: @Edokter minoredt
[1:12pm] Ignatzmice: *minoredit
[1:12pm] vbamba: @YairRand: Yes absolutely
[1:12pm] Edokter: or "minoredit".....
[1:12pm] fabriceflorin: We also conducted a first user survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=ueWEEs67tUBV8kYmp6H_2fpHk1WbzYvhskE0XblPMY_2bqU_3d
[1:12pm] kaldari: legoktm: system is stuff like the automatic welcome notification, user rights change notifications, etc.
[1:12pm] vbamba: We fully accept that prominence has been lost and it needs to be restored.
[1:12pm] Edokter: that page should be updated
[1:13pm] legoktm: kaldari: thanks. is there a full list somewhere?
[1:13pm] fabriceflorin: About 60% of respondents find notifications useful, about 20% don't find them useful and the rest are not sure.
[1:13pm] Ignatzmice: @Edokter it's under "Technical"
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[1:13pm] YairRand: vbamba: that's great to hear
[1:14pm] fabriceflorin: The biggest issue that has been brought up so far is the removal of the big orange bar that used to notify people about new messages (called Orange Bar of Doom -- or OBDM).
[1:14pm] vbamba: Very quickly the issues with the orange bar: Its disconnected from the talk hook. Having the red badge and the orange banner far apart from each other in a way that they can't work as a system is a problem moving forward.
[1:14pm] kaldari: legoktm: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Echo/Feature_requirements#Notification_Categories
[1:14pm] vbamba: It also doesn't persist as you scroll. At some point we want to move to a place where the top right navigation has some level of persistence even when you scroll.
[1:14pm] legoktm: kaldari: awesome
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[1:15pm] fabriceflorin: To respond to this community concern, our team has been working very hard in past few days to create possible solutions for a New Message Indicator, and invited community comments on our first options, as described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notifications/New_message_indicator
[1:15pm] kaldari: legoktm: all of those are active on en.wiki except for 'thanks for your edit' notification
[1:15pm] vbamba: If we implement bars all over the screen we will never be able to make progress with any type of real top right navigation which persist even as you scroll
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[1:15pm] legoktm: kaldari: right. are there plans to turn it on? or was that just a POC extension?
[1:15pm] fabriceflorin: This is what we would like to discuss today with you, so we can talk about the problems we are looking to solve -- and review possible options together.
[1:16pm] legoktm: proof of concept/example*
[1:16pm] lwelling: sumanah my hypothesis on the dips and rises is that is mostly a flat graph with a dip for the weekend.
[1:16pm] fabriceflorin: We are not married to any of these options, but we are committed to solving the problem in a way that is consistent with our goals/
[1:16pm] sumanah: thanks lwelling that makes sense to me
[1:17pm] kaldari: legoktm: We will likely turn on the Thanks extension within the next month and see what people think of it. It's live on MediaWiki.org right now, if you want to try it.
[1:17pm] fabriceflorin: Here are the goals which we are looking to solve with the message indicator:
[1:17pm] fabriceflorin: Prominence (users should be able to notice they have new messages)
[1:17pm] fabriceflorin: Persistence (users should be reminded if they do not check messages)
[1:17pm] fabriceflorin: Clarity (disimbiguate from other notifications)
[1:17pm] fabriceflorin: Consistency (with our UI design goals and best practices)
[1:17pm] fabriceflorin: Compatibility (with popular browser and skins)
[1:17pm] lwelling: the big dips at the ends are probably just that the feature was enabled part way through the first day and the final day on the graph is not over yet
[1:17pm] legoktm: kaldari: I already have
[1:17pm] legoktm: works great imo
[1:17pm] fabriceflorin: If it's all right with you, we would like to review each of these goals, and discuss our options for serving that goal. Does this sound like a good starting point for you?
[1:18pm] kaldari: legoktm: we mainly wanted to wait until existing concerns with Echo have been fixed
[1:18pm] legoktm: makes sense
[1:18pm] Ignatzmice: sounds good
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[1:19pm] fabriceflorin: Thanks, legoktm , glad that works for you. How about you, Ignatzmice and Edokter ?
[1:19pm] legoktm: fabriceflorin: I was responding to kaldari, but your plan sounds good to me too
[1:19pm] Ignatzmice: Yeah
[1:19pm] fabriceflorin: Let's start with the main goal: Prominence.
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[1:20pm] Edokter: works for me
[1:20pm] fabriceflorin: What is the best way to let people know that they have new messages? How prominent does the indicator need to be? What is enough prominence? What is too much prominence?
[1:20pm] Ignatz: Prominence is the big one.
[1:20pm] a930913: I have noticed at least one spike of vandalism since the introduction of the new notifications.
[1:20pm] a930913: A spike I haven't seen in a while.
[1:20pm] YairRand: imo, there is no such thing as too much prominence
[1:20pm] fabriceflorin: We have some examples here of different options, each with different levels of prominence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notifications/New_message_indicator
[1:21pm] Ignatz: Too much prominence *might* be kaldari's NerdAlert, but I wouldn't even rush judgement on that
[1:21pm] kaldari: lol
[1:21pm] a930913: And I wonder whether vandals were not realising they were getting warned until they got blocked.
[1:21pm] lwelling: NerdAlert might be my new favorite
[1:21pm] fabriceflorin: Which ones are too prominent? not prominent enough? what is the best method for making something prominent, but not too loud?
[1:21pm] Edokter: I like nerdalert
[1:21pm] fabriceflorin: Hehe Ignatz
[1:21pm] Ignatz: No, I'm serious!
[1:22pm] Ignatz: But it has to be LOUD, and being prominent helps with that
[1:22pm] YairRand: what is NerdAlert?
[1:22pm] Edokter: Prominance: something that stays on screen (also when scrolling) in a differentiating color
[1:22pm] legoktm: er, which letter is "NerdAlert"?
[1:22pm] lwelling: legoktm the last one
[1:22pm] vbamba: Ignatz, It can be loud without being obnoxious?
[1:22pm] Ignatz: YairRand, it's a joke one that's HUGE and across the entire top of the screen
[1:22pm] Edokter: I prefer E1, the orange floating bar
[1:23pm] a930913: Edokter: +1 (or just something loud enough not to miss.)
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[1:23pm] kaldari: YairRand: importScript('User:Kaldari/nerdalert.js');
[1:23pm] Ignatz: vbamba, yes, I think "obnoxious" is more of a *personality*
[1:23pm] Ignatz: like, if you can easily dismiss it it's not obnoxious, no matter how loud it is
[1:23pm] • YairRand is slightly perplexed by E being shown on monobook
[1:23pm] fabriceflorin: Note that the general convention on most top sites nowadays is to use a small red badge at the top of the page, to let people know they have new notification. This solution is generally considered effective. We want to supplement this solution with an additional indicator that you have new messages, but how prominent should it be? And should it be connected somehow to the red badge and/or the talk link?
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[1:23pm] Ignatz: @YairRand sorry, it's quite similar on Vector
[1:24pm] vbamba: @Ignatz. Obnoxious is also: It doesn't care about the things around it.
[1:24pm] vbamba: It works alone
[1:24pm] • legoktm needs a notification...
[1:24pm] Ignatz: Right, exactly, small and red is fine for most things, but talk page messages are really important
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[1:25pm] lwelling: I wonder where the balance exists between keeping people who've given countless hours to the site happy and providing a site that new users will want to participate in falls? Non-wikipedians are much more likely to be used to a red badge, like Google, facebook, quora and countless others use.
[1:25pm] Edokter: Cse study: I joined Facebook not to long ago, I I have to admin there a re a lot of time I do NOT notice the red badge all the time
[1:25pm] a930913: fabriceflorin: That works when I'm contantly stalking that area waiting for a change (also (1) in <title>) but a vandal on wikipedia might not notice unless it's shoved in their face.
[1:25pm] Ignatz: @legoktm done
[1:25pm] legoktm: omg so much spam
[1:25pm] legoktm: thanks Ignatz and kaldari
[1:25pm] legoktm: kaldari: nerdalert is awesome
[1:26pm] fabriceflorin: Ignatz: We agree that talk page messages are important and that we should have an additional indicator for new messages. But it may be possible to make sure the users notice without adding a huge orange bar in the middle of the article. That's what we are hoping to brainstorm with you today.
[1:26pm] legoktm: but seriously, I'm fine with just the little red icon the way it is
[1:26pm] vbamba: @a930913 agree. but we can't over design for any one class of users
[1:26pm] Edokter: nerdalert shold have Jimbo's image thout
[1:26pm] legoktm: Edokter: meh, I think jorm makes it funnier
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[1:26pm] legoktm: i haven't missed a single notification yet, but i'm also a power user who stalks the irc feeds so...
[1:26pm] lwelling: Are there any stats on reformed vandals? Do vandals warned by a human turn out to be solid citizens in any volume? ie how much more useful is it than a ban?
[1:26pm] vbamba: We have new users who complained that the orange bar was lost when they scrolled and so they missed their talk page messages.
[1:27pm] jorm: It's a play on an old banner, which became a meme, and then a chrome extension, and then an iOS app.
[1:27pm] Ignatz: I think the orange bar (whether the old one, or any version of E) is good because of the color
[1:27pm] Ignatz: D blends in too much
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[1:27pm] legoktm: its important to remember the OBOD wasnt orange in all skins...
[1:27pm] Ignatz: True
[1:27pm] lwelling: it's a play on a collection of memes, that became a jorm, that became a banner ...
[1:27pm] YairRand: higher prominence with smaller size could probably be achieved by having the notification move. could get annoying, though
[1:27pm] legoktm: https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_messages_notification&useskin=modern
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[1:28pm] Ignatz: But modern isn't the default skin for newbies
[1:28pm] legoktm: true
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[1:29pm] fabriceflorin: From a prominence standpoint, which of these solutions seem most effective? Option D? Option E? or Option F? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notifications/New_message_indicator
[1:29pm] a930913: Could we get it to sound a "pop" when you get a notification? Would that make it more prominent?
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[1:29pm] Edokter: The reason it works for Facebook is because it has a static userbar, which always stays on screen
[1:29pm] kaldari: a930913: I think brion would murder me if I did that
[1:29pm] lwelling: a930913 people hate sound on the web
[1:29pm] lwelling: we want them to come back
[1:29pm] vbamba: @Ignatz the Orange bar works because its a large target size and Orange sits between yellow and red and is just enough to draw attention without making you think that its an error
[1:29pm] Ignatz: a930913 meh, sounds are always annoying
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[1:30pm] fabriceflorin: (We know that the OBOD is very prominent, but we're looking for a solution that is not as loud and still accomplishes the goal).
[1:30pm] Edokter: I prefer E for effectiveness, but D for design
[1:30pm] a930913: I won't suggest the klaxon then
[1:30pm] Ignatz: vbamba exactly
[1:30pm] a930913: fabriceflorin: E is most prominent.
[1:31pm] fabriceflorin: Thanks, Edokter. I like that you managed to have the letters match their qualities: E for effectiveness, but D for design
[1:31pm] vbamba: @a930913: klaxon lol. Ryan is reproducing it right now
[1:31pm] Edokter: that was quite unintentional, LOL
[1:31pm] fabriceflorin: Anyone else want to chime in on what solution offers the most prominence?
[1:32pm] vbamba: I think F does the job
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[1:32pm] YairRand: E could be wider
[1:32pm] vbamba: Without introducing problems when we want to add some light persistence to the top right nav
[1:32pm] vbamba: E conflicts with the other confirmations we have for edit feedback etc
[1:33pm] Ignatz: vbamba F is the worst for prominence, I think
[1:33pm] vbamba: We also run into a case where we have multiple banners on top of each other
[1:33pm] Ignatz: "confirmations for edit feedback"=what?
[1:33pm] vbamba: @Ignatz is it because its in the right section?
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[1:33pm] a930913: Could we have a more prominent system for anons? I.e. logged in users should be polling for a (1) whereas anons get it pushed.
[1:33pm] YairRand: I agree with Ignatz re F prominence
[1:33pm] Ignatz: That and it's small (one line!) and the same color as the rest of the page
[1:33pm] fabriceflorin: OK, folks, let's talk about each of the proposed solutions one at at time now, and discuss how they might serve our goals of prominence, persistence, clarity and consistency.
[1:34pm] Ignatz: a930913 the orange bar has been reinstated for anons
[1:34pm] kaldari: although we could implement E at the bottom of the screen instead, which doesn't conflict with other UI elements
[1:34pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: When you make an edit you get a confirmation, thats in the exact same area as E
[1:34pm] a930913: Ignatz: Permanently? And since when?
[1:34pm] Ignatz: since it was discovered that IPs weren't getting *any* notifications
[1:34pm] Ignatz: Back when Echo was rolled out
[1:35pm] lwelling: a930913 since about 20 hours after it was taken off them
[1:35pm] fabriceflorin: For those of you who haven't tried the prototypes yet, we have some instructions on how to do that at the bottom of this section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notifications#Office_hours_chat_on_IRC
[1:35pm] kaldari: If folks want to try the OBOD replacement prototypes, they are now available as gadgets...
[1:35pm] Ignatz: Who knows about permanence, ask Fabrice
[1:35pm] a930913: Do we have a datetime for that?
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[1:35pm] vbamba: We should really be using the gadget for F
[1:35pm] kaldari: Go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets and scroll to "Testing and development"
[1:35pm] vbamba: it is very poorly presented
[1:36pm] Ignatz: vbamba oohhhhhh right, that
[1:36pm] lwelling: a930913 you could extract the date time from the talk page about the launch
[1:36pm] kaldari: make sure if you have any of the user scripts installed you uninstall those first
[1:36pm] YairRand: are notifications to be shown instantly, or only after a page load? this probably makes a difference as to which option would be most prominent.
[1:36pm] Ignatz: but that goes away quickly, while E stays until dismissed
[1:36pm] lwelling: but about 10am pacific time on Wed 1st
[1:36pm] fabriceflorin: Here are the latest screenshots of what the gadgets look like for each option.
[1:36pm] kaldari: Also, you'll need to clear your cache after activating any of the prototype gadgets
[1:36pm] kaldari: to get the new behavior
[1:36pm] vbamba: Also, we are going to be serving more confirmation in that zone which are temporal. So putting something persistent in there will be shortsighted.
[1:37pm] fabriceflorin: Here's Option D - Blue Alert below the talk link: What do you think of that one? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notifications-Message-Indicator-OptionD1-Blue-Alert1-Fade-Screenshot-05-07-2013.png
[1:37pm] fabriceflorin: How does Option D serve the goals of prominence? persistence? clarity? consistency?
[1:37pm] Ignatz: It blends in too much
[1:37pm] vbamba: @Ignatz : But its very confusing to a user. Some things stick, some things go away
[1:37pm] Ignatz: It's good that it points to their talkpage
[1:37pm] a930913: That time doesn't match with a significant change in vandalism then.
[1:38pm] Ignatz: vbamba right, so E3, then—docked to bottom
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[1:39pm] lwelling: vbamba, I like Edokter's comment that a subtle indicator "works for Facebook is because it has a static userbar, which always stays on screen". Google and quora have a very similar presentation and a static toolbar. Do you (or others) have thoughts on making a static bar on wikipedia?
[1:39pm] fabriceflorin: Note that the corresponding gadget for D is this one: Talk page alert prototype D2 - blue tooltip, dismissible -- This version is persistent. What are the pros and cons of that option D?
[1:39pm] vbamba: E docked to the bottom will overlap with page content. It could be additional but can't act as the only primary indicator
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[1:39pm] vbamba: @lwelling: YES
[1:39pm] vbamba: Thats the idea with F
[1:39pm] vbamba: Its so badly shown
[1:39pm] kaldari: vbamba: overlapping page conent might not be such a bad thing, IMO
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[1:40pm] vbamba: @kaldari: Thats design principle 101
[1:40pm] Ignatz: Right, but E is temporarily dismissible (very very nice!) so covering up content isn't a huge issue
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[1:40pm] kaldari: I see sites overlap page content with alerts fairly often
[1:40pm] vbamba: Users are doing lots of things on article pages. We cannot safely say that it will not be an annoyance.
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[1:41pm] vbamba: Yes, as secondary mechanisms which are dismissible, not primary ones.
[1:41pm] fabriceflorin: Moving on to E now, the alert box to the right of the user name. Here is a screenshot that illustrates it: how does this solution serve our main goals? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notifications-Message-Indicator-OptionE2-Top-Alert2-Screenshot-05-07-2013.png
[1:41pm] vbamba: @kaldar: what are some examples?
[1:41pm] Ignatz: well, an annoyance is better than something they'll miss
[1:41pm] Ignatz: I like the fact that E scrolls with you
[1:41pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: Yes as something secondary: What if I dismiss it just cos I want it out of the way. Later when I want it how do I know what that was about?
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[1:42pm] Edokter: E: prominent, but overlaps the personal links
[1:42pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: We eventually want to make the entire top right nab sticky
[1:42pm] vbamba: so its always there even when you scroll down
[1:42pm] lwelling: ignatz I really don't think we should be annoying poeple who are acting in good faith. Only a fraction of talk page messages are warnings
[1:42pm] Ignatz: vbamba well, it's a pretty short message (unlike Edoker's badge)—not difficult to grasp the meaning very quickly
[1:43pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: Let me show you this
[1:43pm] YairRand: additional point: only appearing after domready and not following page scroll is a bad combination. are there any like that?
[1:43pm] fabriceflorin: The screenshot above was for E2, which is located to the left of the user name. Here is a variation E3, which has the alert box at the lower right corner, and was discussed earlier (ignore the wrong file name, this should say E3): http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notifications-Message-Indicator-OptionG1-Bottom-Alert-Screenshot-05-07-2013.png
[1:43pm] Ignatz: lwelling point taken, but *most* messages will benefit from prompt action, not just warnings
[1:43pm] Edokter: If the bar in E could be moved to the left (aligned to abovce the article tab), it would be good
[1:44pm] kaldari: YairRand: The prototypes are all after DOM ready, but this would likely be different for an actual implementation
[1:44pm] fabriceflorin: What are the pros and cons of E, whether it's at the top or the bottom? How does it serve the goals of prominence? persistence? clarity? consistency?
[1:44pm] Ignatz: I like E3 best, even though I think it could be better to have it up top
[1:44pm] Edokter: E3 feels too detached. Last place someone would look
[1:44pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notifications_with_popups_test_B.webm
[1:44pm] fabriceflorin: Edokter: Are you suggesting that we move the E2 box to the left? Or the E3 bar to the left?
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[1:45pm] Edokter: E2 to the left
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[1:45pm] Ignatz: E overall is very clear
[1:45pm] fabriceflorin: Got it. Thanks for your good insights about E. Any final comments about this solution, before we move on to F?
[1:45pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: A new user is so busy figuring the rest of the elements out on the page that the red bubble notification doesn't work. When he needs it he can't get to it.
[1:46pm] Ignatz: vbamba that's why the red bubble is just something temporary
[1:46pm] Ignatz: until we agree on something better
[1:46pm] vbamba: But the point is that any nudge saying 'You have new talk messages' needs to persistent.
[1:46pm] vbamba: be persistent*
[1:47pm] vbamba: so anything on the bottom will obfuscate content and is temporal will generate issues of a different nature for us
[1:47pm] Ignatz: Which E is, I think; you only get rid of it by explicitly dismissing it, and it still comes back next page load
[1:48pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: Where would you put E?
[1:48pm] fabriceflorin: OK, let's move on to F now. Here is a preliminary screenshot of that option: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notifications-Message-Indicator-OptionF2-Toolbar-Alert2-Screenshot-05-07-2013.png
[1:48pm] fabriceflorin: (note that it has a light blue background, the new version has a darker blue background that says 'Talk: You have new messages)
[1:48pm] vbamba: We cannot have it in the same area as confirmations. Thats really confusing.
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[1:48pm] vbamba: Floating Elements have tested to be annoying unless they go away on their own
[1:48pm] Edokter: F: least prominent. Would only be effective if the userbar was static
[1:48pm] Ignatz: I don't think either E1 or E3 are bad locations, but now we're in a loop, let's move on
[1:49pm] fabriceflorin: We recommend that you all try out the gadget for F, as it has a very cool animation, with dark blue background.
[1:49pm] vbamba: If they go away, they don't address our need
[1:49pm] fabriceflorin: To install the gadget for F, go to this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets
[1:49pm] kaldari: There are 2 gadget version of F, BTW, if people want to try it out. One has is animated, the other isn't. Sorry for my poor quality animation, just imagine it is smooother
[1:49pm] vbamba: @Edocter: Where are you seeing F?
[1:49pm] lwelling: vbamba if it was in exactly the same format as confirmations, but stacked and was persistent it would no be confusing. But it would quickly break if you got a stack of more than 2
[1:49pm] vbamba: Please don't look at the mockup
[1:49pm] a930913: F is on a fixed toolbar?
[1:50pm] vbamba: Use the gadget
[1:50pm] Edokter: animation often don't work when you scroll down immadiately (or jump to a section from a link)
[1:50pm] Ignatz: I think if/when the navbar starts scrolling, F would be a good option
[1:50pm] fabriceflorin: The F2 gadget is at the bottom of the Gadgets preference page and is called: Talk page alert prototype F2 - inline toolbar message, animated, blue highlight
[1:50pm] Ignatz: But until then it's just not noticeable enough
[1:50pm] vbamba: If we put it in the toolbar we can create persistence in the future
[1:50pm] kaldari: a930913: yes, it appears in the fixed toolbar
[1:50pm] Edokter: @vbamba: I see it next to the talk link
[1:50pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: Would a color change for F help?
[1:50pm] fabriceflorin: Please try out the F2 gadget now, you will be glad you did: be sure to clear your caches after you install a gadget. You will also need to send yourself a message from a separate account.
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[1:50pm] fabriceflorin: As long as you don't click on the message indicator, you can switch between different gadgets and still see the new indicator.
[1:51pm] Ignatz: vbamba yes, it might
[1:51pm] vbamba: @Edokter: Are you using the gadget, The mockup is incorrect.
[1:51pm] fabriceflorin: How many people here have tried the F2 gadget? What do you like or not like about it?
[1:52pm] fabriceflorin: More importantly, how does F2 serve our goals for prominence? persistence? clarity? consistency?
[1:52pm] vbamba: What if we used a brighter color but carried the indicator in the nav. The we can look into making the entire top right nab sticky.
[1:52pm] vbamba: nav*
[1:52pm] Ignatz: The white-on-dark-blue is better than the previous colors
[1:52pm] Ignatz: but any blue at all is still too blendy
[1:53pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: I do agree
[1:53pm] vbamba: What about a green?
[1:53pm] Edokter: I tested the gadget
[1:53pm] Ignatz: Mm.
[1:53pm] fabriceflorin: Ignatz: Yes, I was pleased that the darker blue myself, and it serves the goal of consistency with our overall design goals.
[1:53pm] Ignatz: Maybe if it was a sort of neon-green
[1:53pm] Ignatz: or lime green
[1:53pm] Ignatz: not dark
[1:53pm] Edokter: I don't like F becuae it is easy to miss
[1:54pm] vbamba: People talking to you is constructive and green is a constructive color as part of agora: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Design/Color_Usage
[1:54pm] Edokter: unless the userlinks were static
[1:54pm] fabriceflorin: What about prominence? Is F2 prominent enough? Does the animation successfully draw your eye to it?
[1:54pm] kaldari: Edokter: what about when it is animated?
[1:54pm] vbamba: @Edocter: By static you mean persists even as you scroll
[1:54pm] Edokter: Still easy to miss when scrolling down
[1:54pm] vbamba: ?
[1:54pm] Ignatz: The animation does help
[1:54pm] Edokter: @vbamba: correct
[1:55pm] fabriceflorin: Who else has tried the F2 gadget? If you haven't yet, we recommend that you do, as it appears to offer some benefits on all the goals we are trying to serve.
[1:55pm] vbamba: At some point, we really have to make the top right nab sticky.
[1:55pm] Ignatz: But it's not really enough
[1:55pm] vbamba: and F will be a step in that direction.
[1:55pm] vbamba: If we went with D or E the banner will be left out of any nav persistence.
[1:55pm] Edokter: +point is that it clearly seperates the talkpage notification from the others
[1:56pm] Ignatz: Edokter yes, that is good
[1:56pm] vbamba: @Edoctokter: Did you mean F when you said - +point is that it clearly seperates the talkpage notification from the others
[1:56pm] a930913: Any form of toolbar which will always be at the top of the screen gets a +1 from me. It would prevent even a simple red (1) getting missed in scroll.
[1:56pm] Ignatz: vbamba I really think a color like red would be better, or if that's too "DANGER!" then orange
[1:56pm] Edokter: Could the userlinks be made static temporarely while the notification is displayed?
[1:56pm] fabriceflorin: Edokter: Is F2 persistent enough for you? Is it clear enough?
[1:57pm] kaldari: Nav stickiness is not realistically something we can implement within a short-term timeframe though. It definitely opens up a lot of options for long-term solutions though
[1:58pm] Ignatz: One point of order: for me personally, there are lots of little JS bits that pop up as I load a page: TW, UTC clock, page size/DYK check, etc
[1:58pm] a930913: kaldari: Could it be seriously considered?
[1:58pm] Ignatz: So F kinda gets lost
[1:58pm] Edokter: @fabriceflorin: as I explained, it is easily missed when scrolling down *during* pagepoad, ie. when click from another page with a section anchor.
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[1:58pm] vbamba: @a930913 : I completely agree and we absolutely have to do that
[1:58pm] Ignatz: That's not a big problem for newbies, though
[1:58pm] fabriceflorin: OK, folks, we're going to try changing the color of F2 to change on the gadget now, so you can see it live. Stay tuned ...
[1:58pm] sumanah: (neat)
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[1:58pm] vbamba: A lot of new users are missing their page/ talk/ watchlist because of the top right nab being a weak component in the page hierarchy
[1:58pm] Edokter: @kaldari: one line of CSS can make the userlinks static
[1:59pm] fabriceflorin: I meant we'll change the F2 color to 'ORANGE', not blue.
[1:59pm] a930913: I think a navbar would make the whole wikipedia experience a whole lot more personal, perhape even leading to better retention.
[2:00pm] a930913: vbamba: It it technical or social that prevents a fixed nav?
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[2:00pm] Edokter: White on orange: not good, make the text black
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[2:01pm] vbamba: @Edokter: Yeah, we could use a dark grey instead of a #000 on the orange. Good Point there.
[2:01pm] Ignatz: ooooooohhh yes that orange is much better than the blue
[2:01pm] Ignatz: vbamba yeah, grey not black
[2:01pm] kaldari: orange version of F: http://imgur.com/tOvF57i
[2:01pm] Edokter: but the organge is consistent with what IPs see
[2:02pm] Edokter: and also has historical context for the old garde
[2:02pm] vbamba: @a930913 : Its both, We need community consensus and work on the tech implementation for the top right nav. But we *really* need to do it. And you're guys's nod in that direction is a really good start
[2:02pm] Ignatz: Edokter another god point
[2:02pm] Ignatz: *good
[2:02pm] lwelling: vbamba how do we know new users are missing messages? Top right red marker is becoming as common a convention as clicking the site logo in the top left corner to go the the home page. Pretty soon all new users will expect it
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[2:03pm] vbamba: Yes, that was before echo
[2:03pm] fabriceflorin: OK, those of you who have gadget F2 installed, refresh your screen now. We have an orange background now.
[2:03pm] YairRand: maybe an internal box-shadow of a slightly different color would be helpful
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[2:03pm] fabriceflorin: How many people have F2 gadget installed?
[2:03pm] Ignatz: I do, the orange is really nice
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[2:04pm] a930913: fabriceflorin: Just waiting for a notification
[2:04pm] fabriceflorin: We will upload a screenshot now, for those of you who don't have the gadget yet. Give us a few minutes.
[2:04pm] Edokter: I do
[2:04pm] fabriceflorin: Ignatz: Thanks. Glad you like that approach.
[2:04pm] Edokter: still white though
[2:04pm] Ignatz: a930913 there you go
[2:05pm] fabriceflorin: Edokter: We're changing to dark gray text right now
[2:05pm] a930913: Ignatz: Ta.
[2:05pm] Ignatz: Yeah, nothing else using orange+animation makes it catch my peripheral vision wll
[2:05pm] Ignatz: *well
[2:05pm] vbamba: @Edokter: We have it switched to the grey color from agora, we can optimize this some more.
[2:05pm] Edokter: That's better
[2:06pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: Didn't get what you said (Yeah, nothing else using orange+animation makes it catch my peripheral vision well) Please explain again?
[2:06pm] a930913: F2 works great, unless you're scrolled down by a few px.
[2:06pm] vbamba: @ Edokter: you know what would help?
[2:06pm] Edokter: do tell
[2:06pm] vbamba: Nav Stickiness + Making the type size larger by a notch and more margin on the top, even if it was just 5 px
[2:06pm] Ignatz: vbamba it's the only thing on the page that's orange; that plus the animation means I can see it out of the corner of my eye
[2:07pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: Sweet!
[2:07pm] Ignatz: Yes, a little bit larger would be good
[2:07pm] a930913: vbamba: Should I propose having a fixed navbar to see what the community think?
[2:07pm] Edokter: or bold
[2:07pm] Ignatz: Plus nav stickiness, of course
[2:07pm] vbamba: @Edokter: Bold is very valid, Ryan can add that in, I also asked for it
[2:07pm] Edokter: indeed. trying to find a way to make just the talk page link sticky
[2:07pm] Ignatz: Unless you can do it without JS
[2:08pm] vbamba: @a930913 : I would be *SO* grateful if we can get that started with the community
[2:08pm] vbamba: @a930913 : It would be fantastic if you could start the proposal
[2:09pm] a930913: vbamba: I'll start drafting a proposal then.
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[2:09pm] Ignatz: (Clarification: How much of the top links would "nav stickiness" include? How much, if any, of the sidebar?)
[2:10pm] vbamba: @Ignatz: Username/ Talk/ Watchlist perhaps?
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[2:10pm] fabriceflorin: OK, folks, here is the revised version of F2, with an orange background: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notifications-Message-Indicator-OptionF3-Toolbar-Alert-Orange-Screenshot-05-08-2013.png
[2:10pm] lwelling: fixed nav bar would solve my personal wiki disability. I often visit my own talk page when I mean to visit the article's
[2:10pm] fabriceflorin: Does this version work for you?
[2:10pm] Edokter: some tweakt: text in bold a a red border
[2:11pm] vbamba: @Edokter: Yes to text in bold
[2:11pm] Edokter: @Ignatz: the whol bar, OR just the talk link (my pref)
[2:11pm] vbamba: I can see people wanting the entire bar to be sticky
[2:11pm] Ignatz: vbamba yeah
[2:12pm] vbamba: @Edokter @Ignatz @a930913 How can we continue this conversation?
[2:12pm] fabriceflorin: What do folks think of the new version of F2, with the orange bar?
[2:12pm] fabriceflorin: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notifications-Message-Indicator-OptionF3-Toolbar-Alert-Orange-Screenshot-05-08-2013.png
[2:12pm] Ignatz: Myabe even the entire "read-talk-edit" bar as well
[2:13pm] a930913: vbamba: In terms of navbar?
[2:13pm] fabriceflorin: Would folks be comfortable if we deployed this new version of F2 for now, and move on to other points in coming days?
[2:13pm] vbamba: @a930913: yes. If we work with the F solution the immediate next step would be nab stickiness
[2:13pm] vbamba: nav*
[2:13pm] Ignatz: I could see F being prominent enough for the newbies
[2:14pm] vbamba: I have to run to another meeting but I wanted to say that i really enjoyed talking to you today: @Edokter @Ignatz @a930913
[2:14pm] a930913: vbamba: I'm just mocking up an image.
[2:14pm] vbamba: Please let me know how we can keep talking
[2:14pm] fabriceflorin: We would like to deploy something as soon as possible, so we can start working on other features. So would you be comfortable with this orange version of F2?
[2:14pm] Ignatz: and anything we're doing now is based on JS, so no loss of functionality if we do that
[2:14pm] a930913: vbamba: I'm on ##930913
[2:14pm] kaldari: Ignatz: yes
[2:15pm] Ignatz: I would like to urge the team to try and make something orange-bar-like for people w/o JS
[2:15pm] fabriceflorin: Orange F2 seems to meet our main goals: prominence, persistence, clarity and consistency.
[2:15pm] Edokter: @kaldari: I took the liberty of adding bold and bordr
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[2:15pm] fabriceflorin: Ignatz: We are happy to look at an alternative solution for people without JS (I am not even sure that Notifications works for them right now).
[2:16pm] Ignatz: That's one of the problems!
[2:16pm] kaldari: if we have the bold coloration, do we still need it to be animated?
[2:16pm] Ignatz: kaldari: this version of F works much better in Modern and CB
[2:16pm] Ignatz: still some issues, but not as bad
[2:16pm] Ignatz: YES animation
[2:17pm] Ignatz: actually, no problems w/ Modern
[2:17pm] fabriceflorin: Ignatz: Thanks for bringing it up to our attention. But first things first. For people who have JS, we would like to deploy a 'temporary' solution based on orange F2. Does that work for you?
[2:17pm] Ignatz: only issue is that it covers up articletext in Cologne 'cause it's on the side
[2:17pm] Ignatz: Yeah, I think F would work.
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[2:17pm] Ignatz: It's more persistent than Edoker's badge
[2:18pm] Ignatz: And farther toward the center
[2:18pm] kaldari: How does this version of F2 compare with E? Are more people favoring F2 now?
[2:18pm] fabriceflorin: Thanks, Ignatz -- Edokter, would the orange F2 solution work for you as a temporary solution?
[2:19pm] Ignatz: I still think E would be better until the navbar becomes sticky, but I won't press the point
[2:19pm] Edokter: yes it would work for me
[2:20pm] Edokter: but it would be better when sticky
[2:20pm] Edokter: I think E2 is most elegant
[2:21pm] YairRand: +1 support for E
[2:22pm] Ignatz: I really don't think the edit confirmation is that much of an issue with E1
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[2:22pm] Edokter: just one additional minor though; maybe the text shold be link-blue
[2:22pm] kaldari: what is the main aspect of E that makes it better than F? The persistance or the prominence or both?
[2:22pm] Ignatz: it's tiny, and it disappears, and I don't look at the top anyway—I look to wherever my new text will be
[2:22pm] Edokter: makes it look more 'clikcable'
[2:23pm] Edokter: E makes it look more intergrated with the trest of the page
[2:23pm] Ignatz: E is more prominent, which is mitigated by its dismissability, which is mitigated by its persistence on page load
[2:23pm] Ignatz: All of which are good
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[2:25pm] Edokter: oops, I meant F looks more intergrated
[2:25pm] fabriceflorin: Hi Ignatz and Edokter: thanks for these good points, which are much appreciated. I am glad that you would be comfortable with orange F2, even though it's not your favorite -- and will consider your recommendations for E as well.
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[2:26pm] Ignatz: great
[2:27pm] fabriceflorin: We all have to make some compromises to move this forward, and it seems that all the constructive give and take from all sides in this IRC chat has helped us make progress together.
[2:27pm] fabriceflorin: We are very grateful that you took the time to problem-solve with us, and love that we were able to tweak the designs together to achieve a solution that meets our goals.
[2:28pm] Ignatz: "IRC chat" is PNS syndrome
[2:28pm] Edokter: gals to be of service
[2:28pm] fabriceflorin: Hehe
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[2:28pm] Edokter: It's just a matter of picking the best element from several solutions
[2:28pm] Edokter: gals=glad
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[2:28pm] fabriceflorin: Edokter: the feeling is mutual -- I'm really happy with this collaborative resolution.
[2:29pm] Ignatz: Note that others aren't as touchy-feely
[2:29pm] Ignatz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notifications#Note
[2:30pm] Ignatz: Just FYI
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[2:31pm] fabriceflorin: Edokter: If this works for everyone, we would like to develop orange F2 now, and hope to deploy it on Tuesday as part of Echo. Does that plan work for you?
[2:31pm] Ignatz: That blue is... interesting
[2:31pm] Ignatz: Can't tell if it's as eye-catching as the grey or not
[2:31pm] Ignatz: But the important bit is the background color anyway
[2:32pm] Edokter: it's the standard link-blue; it says " click me!"
[2:33pm] a930913: Also, just to note that I can't access my notifications unless I'm logged in, so I can't get a bot to notify me offwiki.
[2:34pm] Ignatz: a930913 email maybe?
[2:36pm] a930913: Ignatz: No, I'm just pushing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Notifications#Syndication_Secret_Token
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[2:36pm] Edokter: I'm very curious how the community will react.
[2:37pm] Ignatz: kaldari, Edokter, is there anything we want to do with the red badge?
[2:37pm] Edokter: at least they have the orange bar
[2:37pm] Ignatz: Probably better to keep it as it is
[2:37pm] Ignatz: but if we know what's coming, maybe we should try to transition as soon as realistically possible?
[2:37pm] Ignatz: Or at least bring it up somewhere on-wiki.
[2:38pm] Edokter: I say do nothing with the badge
[2:38pm] Edokter: perhaps Echo will have a similair feature in the future
[2:38pm] Edokter: a red bar
[2:40pm] Edokter: and one day they could be integraetd, who knows
[2:40pm] Ignatz: All right, well if that's all for now I'm off to have dinner
[2:40pm] Edokter: bon apetit
[2:40pm] Ignatz: good luck, team
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[2:40pm] Ignatz: caio
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[2:41pm] Edokter: off as well, see you back on wiki
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