IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-08-26

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6:01 PM <Denny_WMDE> we have the Wikidata office hour starting now and going for about sixty minutes
6:01 PM <jem-> :)
6:01 PM → yurik joined (~Yurik@mediawiki/Yurik)
6:01 PM <hoo> Denny_WMDE: Being all official and _WMDE now? :D
6:01 PM <Denny_WMDE> just to check, is anyone here for the office hour, or will Adam_WMDE and I just retreat silently and claim that our communication work is so good that no one had any questions?
6:01 PM — hoo didn't use his _WMDE in quite a while
6:02 PM → Hprmedina joined (~Hprmedina@wikipedia/Hprmedina)
6:02 PM — jem- is here and has two questions/comments
6:02 PM <Denny_WMDE> perfect
6:02 PM — ainali is here to listen
6:02 PM <Denny_WMDE> welcome
6:03 PM <Denny_WMDE> like last time, we would start with a very rough overview of what happened since the last time
6:03 PM <Denny_WMDE> of what is expected to happen in the near future
6:03 PM <Denny_WMDE> and then we will take questions
6:03 PM <Denny_WMDE> if it gets hectic, Adam_WMDE will keep track of the questions
6:03 PM <jem-> Perfect
6:03 PM <jerome_> good
6:03 PM <YairRand> excellent
6:03 PM <Denny_WMDE> and I will answer them as he tells me to
6:03 PM <Denny_WMDE> if it remains unhectic, we can be less formal
6:04 PM <Denny_WMDE> ok, so let the fun begin
6:04 PM <Adam_WMDE> :D
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6:04 PM <Denny_WMDE> since last time we deployed Wikidata language links to all Wikipedias
6:04 PM <Denny_WMDE> due to that, more than 240 Million language links have been removed from the Wikipedias
6:05 PM <Denny_WMDE> ( I find that number staggering, so I keep repeating it )
6:05 PM ⇐ Steinsplitter quit (~Thunderbi@wikimedia/Steinsplitter) Excess Flood
6:05 PM <Denny_WMDE> we also have now the possibility to add statements with a number of datatypes
6:05 PM <Denny_WMDE> like coordinates and time
6:05 PM <Denny_WMDE> and they are heavily used
6:05 PM <Denny_WMDE> all Wikipedias have access to that data
6:06 PM <Denny_WMDE> and since a few weeks, also Wikivoyage was welcomed as the second sister project to have their language links be provided by Wikidata
6:06 PM <Denny_WMDE> today, if everything goes well, Wikivoyage will also get access to the data
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6:06 PM <Denny_WMDE> the URL datatype was planned for today as well, but alas, had to be moved by two weeks as it is not sufficiently tested yet
6:07 PM <Denny_WMDE> we are currently preparing for further datatypes and for more sister projects
6:07 PM <YairRand> which datatype is most likely to be available after URL?
6:08 PM <Denny_WMDE> the big features to come are queries to the knowledge base, arbitrary access from the client to any data item (so you can also get your bibliographic metadata for a reference from Wikidata), and the ability to change the order of stuff on a Wikidata page
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6:08 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: either number or monolingual text
6:08 PM <YairRand> great :)
6:08 PM <Denny_WMDE> OK, this overview was supershort and I skipped like 90% of what we did
6:09 PM <Denny_WMDE> but I hope it is enough to get you started and get a few questions out :)
6:09 PM <JohnLewis> Denny_WMDE: I missed what you said. Mind mesaging it my quickly? :)
6:09 PM <JohnLewis> *me
6:10 PM <YairRand> I don't understand why changing the order is useful. is the order itself going to be usable as data?
6:10 PM <Denny_WMDE> JohnLewis: Adam_WMDE will do that for me, my client is not good at this stuff
6:10 PM <Adam_WMDE> JohnLewis: >> everything so far >>
6:10 PM <JohnLewis> Denny_WMDE: Ok.
6:10 PM <JohnLewis> Adam_WMDE: Thanks :p
6:10 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: there are two reasons for why the order is useful
6:11 PM <Denny_WMDE> 1. presentation. people expect that some statements are higher than others, or that external identifiers are grouped, or whatever
6:12 PM <Denny_WMDE> (I agree that this does not sound terribly important, but I think it might ease the entrance to our project for newcomers if the first statement for their favourite pop start is not the ISNI number :) )
6:12 PM <YairRand> I would think that presentation would be handled by setting general rules about which properties are more important than other properties. is this how it's going to be handled?
6:12 PM <Denny_WMDE> 2. ranks. Our current UI design for ranks assume that statements ranked "preferred" or "deprecated" are grouped together
6:13 PM <Denny_WMDE> this makes ordering a prerequisite for ranking
6:13 PM <Denny_WMDE> re follow up question: no, that's not how it is planned. but rather on any items the editors can decide how to order the statements
6:14 PM <YairRand> these changes will have their own diffs?
6:14 PM <Denny_WMDE> it might be that a property should be high (date of discovery) for one item (an asteroid) and not so high for another (elements).
6:14 PM <Denny_WMDE> yes
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6:15 PM <Denny_WMDE> Any further questions?
6:15 PM <YairRand> I don't suppose ordering could be used to represent data itself, ie have a party list shown in order without extra properties to say which items come first?
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6:16 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: sorry, I fail to understand
6:16 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: you had also questions?
6:17 PM <jem-> Yes
6:17 PM <jem-> But I'm waiting my turn :)
6:17 PM <Denny_WMDE> oh, anyone giving turns? :)
6:18 PM <Adam_WMDE> jem-: I would send your question now so we have time to think about it while YairRand tried to explain the possibility of the lists mentioned above!
6:18 PM — jem- gives a turn to himself and his chair
6:18 PM <jem-> Ok then
6:19 PM <jem-> The first question is about propagation of the watchlist changes to the Wikipedias et al.
6:20 PM <jem-> I found myself having to remove the changes marked as external because most of them belong to new pages being linked
6:20 PM <YairRand> Denny_WMDE: a while back I proposed having an "ordered list" data type to represent data where the order is important data itself: . If we're going to have a system set up where we can specifically order data anyway, could we use that to achieve the same thing?
6:21 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: ah. I would say "rather not".
6:21 PM <jem-> I would like that those changes were separated, at least, between "linked pages changes" and "properties or descriptions changes"
6:21 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: I am pinging aude, she might know more about that
6:22 PM <jem-> Or... that that were possible at Wikidata with some way to connect to the Wikipedia watchlist
6:22 PM <Denny_WMDE> as far as i understand, as of this week, these changes will be marked with a "D" so that you can filter them further
6:22 PM <jem-> Ok, thanks
6:22 PM <Denny_WMDE> but your questions goes further
6:22 PM <Denny_WMDE> and we currently do not plan to have them further filtered by the type of changes
6:23 PM <Denny_WMDE> but if a volunteer picks that up, we will be happy to review and merge it
6:23 PM <aude> it's probably a bit involved to implement that
6:23 PM <aude> if you want to make a bug, then we can keep it in mind
6:23 PM <Denny_WMDE> my hope is that the improved summaries should allow you to quicker sort them out
6:23 PM <Denny_WMDE> these also should go life today
6:23 PM <Adam_WMDE> *live
6:24 PM <jem-> Good
6:24 PM <Denny_WMDE> thanks, Adam_WMDE
6:24 PM <jem-> That could help also, yes, if those summaries are visible from the Wikipedias
6:24 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: basically, I think an ordered list would still be a data type of its own
6:24 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: and should not be implemented through the ordering of statements
6:24 PM <aude> jem-: right now we batch edits if a bunch occur in a short time
6:25 PM <aude> so it shows as "3 changes..."
6:25 PM <aude> this is because for each wikidata change, the wikipedia page needs to be parse which is "expensive"
6:25 PM <aude> takes a while, depending on size of the page
6:25 PM <YairRand> Denny_WMDE: Is a ordered list data type planned?
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6:26 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: currently not, but we only have the next five datatypes planned
6:26 PM <jem-> I understand
6:26 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: after that, it's open
6:26 PM <Adam_WMDE> jem-: A few more details on the summaries, the improvements include the details of the changes included in the autosummary as well as the ability for bots to specific custom summaries when editing
6:26 PM <YairRand> I see
6:28 PM <jem-> Adam_WMDE: That's good, but also, if summaries can be customized, they won't help to know what's being changed
6:28 PM <Adam_WMDE> jem-: when custom summaries are added the auto comment (with the details) remains
6:28 PM <legoktm> it would be nice if the autosummary will always be in the front, and bots can append to it
6:28 PM <legoktm> oh, yay :D
6:28 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: that is true, that's where aude's comment comes in regarding the need to parse the changes and its costlyness
6:28 PM <Adam_WMDE> (:
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6:29 PM <YairRand> legoktm: +1
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6:29 PM <jem-> Ok :)
6:29 PM <Denny_WMDE> legoktm: if the user states something then this needs to be taken into account and must not be thrown away
6:29 PM <legoktm> agreed
6:29 PM <Denny_WMDE> legoktm: the autosummary can be recreated, but the user's comment can not
6:30 PM <Denny_WMDE> and the summary line, alas, is restricted in it's length
6:30 PM <Denny_WMDE> so we have to work within these restrictions
6:31 PM <jem-> Ok, then I'll keep watching for that and open a bug if still necessary
6:31 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: yes, thanks :)
6:31 PM <jem-> :)
6:31 PM <jem-> Second question then?
6:31 PM <Adam_WMDE> fire away!
6:32 PM <jem-> Good :) This is a more general one
6:32 PM <jem-> It's about categories
6:32 PM <Denny_WMDE> pesky little categories
6:32 PM <jem-> Yes :)
6:33 PM <jem-> I think there is some thinking going on about Wikidata managing or helping to manage categories in the projects
6:33 PM <jem-> That would be very necessary in my opinion
6:33 PM awjr_away → awjr
6:34 PM <jem-> I'd like to know just what's in the mind of the developers, or maybe the community, about that
6:34 PM <Denny_WMDE> to be honest, I am not aware of these discussions. My personal opinion is that each project is autonomous in this regard. With Lua it is actually possible to delegate the handling of the categories completely to Wikidata
6:34 PM <Denny_WMDE> so a project, if it wanted, could do that - but no project has to
6:35 PM <Denny_WMDE> I am not sure if it is a good idea or not. I never was sure about the roles of categories in the projects to begin with
6:35 PM <Denny_WMDE> are they widely used by readers? how much does the improvement of the category system benefit readers?
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6:36 PM <Denny_WMDE> so, in short, I think the current setup is flexible enough to handle both possibilities
6:36 PM <jem-> That's the point... a category helps if it can create a useful list or articles, but maybe phase 3 could also do that?
6:36 PM <Denny_WMDE> and also hybrids between both
6:36 PM <Ziko> using wikidata for categories sounds extremely interesting. on the other hand, by intuition i ask myself whether the actual category systems aren't to different from each other. then again, the same was told about the interwiki links, but i think this is different. and as denny says, the categories seem to be something more internal for the editors (=less important)
6:37 PM <abian> Sorry, I think categories are useful mostly for maintenance and running bots
6:37 PM <Denny_WMDE> abian: in which case, they probably should remain locally controlled
6:37 PM <Denny_WMDE> I think this is a discussion internal to each project
6:38 PM <Denny_WMDE> and even trying to centralize it on Wikidata might lead to pain
6:38 PM <GerardM> currently Wikidata looks awful and it is hard to get an impression of the available data.. Why not have something like reasonator as a visualisation and the current stuff as the edit page ?
6:38 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: but yes, if it is about "useful lists of articles", I think our query system will be helpful with that
6:38 PM <jem-> Ok
6:38 PM <Nikerabbit> can anybody update the topic to say it's wikidata office hour?
6:39 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: and this could be done in parallel and complementary to the local category system
6:39 PM legoktm set the topic: Wikidata office hours -
6:39 PM <jem-> So there is nothing scheduled apart from that and the use of Lua for dynamic categories based on property values, right?
6:39 PM <Denny_WMDE> thanks Nikerabbit, legoktm
6:39 PM <legoktm> np
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6:39 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: reasonator embodies a lot of domain knowledge
6:40 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: which we have no way to save, edit, and maintain collaboratively
6:40 PM <Denny_WMDE> as of now
6:40 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: this means, that Wikidata will continue to have a rather barebones look for a while
6:40 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: at the same time we will have more and more opportunity to learn how others are using and displaying wikidata
6:41 PM <YairRand> I think it would be interesting to see categories being generated from wikidata via lua. someone could have "if thisitem instance_of balloon and color = purple and date_popped = 1948 then return '[[category:purple balloons popped in 1948]] end" in {infobox balloon} and so on
6:41 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: and in a few months, years, we might make steps towards making Wikidata prettier
6:41 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: but that's no priority as of now
6:41 PM <GerardM> the objective of having a native visual experience is to get more contributors
6:41 PM <GerardM> is that not a priority ?
6:42 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: no, besides the query function and lua for dynamic categories, there is nothing in the pipeline right now
6:42 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: if you have ideas, feel free to share them
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6:42 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: yes, that should be possible currently
6:42 PM <jem-> Ok
6:43 PM <Ziko> question: what will wikidata mean for wikimedia commons in future? (if at all)
6:43 PM <jem-> I don't have any concrete ideas for the moment, I just wanted to delimitate the exact problems we're going to face, first :)
6:43 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: it is a priority, but a lower one than many other things currently, like supporting more data types, more sister projects, queries, etc.
6:43 PM <legoktm> Ziko: have you seen the commons proposal?
6:43 PM <legoktm>
6:44 PM <jem-> But thanks, your answer is useful enough for the moment, Denny_WMDE
6:44 PM <Ziko> ah thanks
6:44 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: what legoktm says. We had also plenty of discussions during Wikimania for that. I think the plans should unfold in 2014, if all goes well
6:44 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: glad to be helpful :)
6:44 PM <jem-> :)
6:45 PM <jem-> Maybe in future office hours I can give some concrete ideas
6:45 PM <YairRand> I find it interesting that many on-wikidata discussions on topics like commons and such tend to gravitate toward the "wikidata must gobble up everything nearby" position :)
6:45 PM <jem-> (... hoping there will be future office hours)
6:45 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: or send emails or bug reports. Office hours are often far apart, because they are not so terribly frequented
6:45 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: I do assume they will continue
6:45 PM <Ziko> about categories: why is this in wikidata?
6:45 PM <jem-> I know, I know :)
6:45 PM <Denny_WMDE> (jem-: but I am in no position to promise that)
6:46 PM <YairRand> Ziko: better than having interwikis set up the old way?
6:46 PM edsanders → edsanders|away
6:46 PM <jem-> I admit I'm often too lazy and office hours are a good chance for the lazies :)
6:46 PM <Adam_WMDE> Ziko: It exists as it meets the current notability requirements :)
6:46 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: yes, I find that interesting too, that a lot of discussions go that way. I regard it often as my job to say "no" or "not for now" :)
6:46 PM <Adam_WMDE> *
6:47 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: as Adam_WMDE says
6:47 PM <Ziko> it's a category on english wikipedia
6:47 PM <abian> I have a question related to propierties...
6:48 PM <abian> Could we limit the properties that can be added to an item, despite not having P107 any more?
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6:48 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: that meets WD:N
6:48 PM <Denny_WMDE> abian: even with P107 it was not really possible
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6:48 PM <Adam_WMDE> Ziko: there are many such items,, etc.
6:49 PM <abian> And could we use AbuseFilter for making this possible?
6:49 PM <Denny_WMDE> abian: there were external bots analyzing the data and creating reports if they violated certain constraints
6:49 PM <Ziko> denny:wemde: so it fulfills some structural needs and "it can be described using serious and publicly available references"
6:49 PM <Denny_WMDE> abian: this is also possible without P107, obviously
6:49 PM gwicke → gwicke_away
6:49 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: no, number 1: It contains at least one valid sitelink to a Wikipedia or Wikivoyage page.
6:49 PM <legoktm> abian: theoretically we could use the AF to stop people from adding properties, but I don't think people would agree that's a good thing.
6:50 PM <abian> AF are too unattended
6:50 PM <Denny_WMDE> ok folks, 10 more minutes
6:50 PM <abian> Could be possible to create a group of users who take care of them?
6:50 PM <JohnLewis> Denny_WMDE: - Contraint violation reports :)
6:50 PM <Denny_WMDE> did I miss any questions?
6:50 PM <Ziko> ok i see. but it does not seem to make much sence to me to have a couple of category-items here and not a systematic approach
6:51 PM <Denny_WMDE> abian: see JohnLewis comment and link
6:51 PM <Adam_WMDE> Denny_WMDE: you've got all of the ones I have spotted :)
6:51 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: there is a systematic approach: have *all* category items :)
6:51 PM <abian> Ok, thanks :)
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6:51 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: simple, but definitively systematic
6:52 PM <Ziko> right, denny_wmde :-)
6:52 PM <legoktm> Denny_WMDE: i mentioned this on the paper cuts page, but what do you think of having a section on an item/property where we can add and display any arbitrary wikitext? this would be similar to the Summary concept in LQT
6:52 PM <Denny_WMDE> legoktm: not a fan of this idea
6:52 PM <YairRand> legoktm: for content or for maintenance?
6:53 PM <legoktm> well the main rationale is that we can tag items with {{delete}} directly
6:53 PM <legoktm> YairRand: maintenance mainly
6:53 PM <Denny_WMDE> legoktm: this section would have to live somewhere between the label-description and the wikipedia article
6:53 PM <Denny_WMDE> legoktm: aah
6:53 PM <Denny_WMDE> ok, for maintenance, this can be achieved by using the talk page
6:53 PM <legoktm> but now you have to delete the talk page too
6:53 PM <Denny_WMDE> enwp often has maintenance tags on the talk page
6:54 PM <•Ironholds> er. not really.
6:54 PM <Denny_WMDE> no?
6:54 PM <•Ironholds> I mean, sometimes, but it's pretty uncommon.
6:54 PM <Adam_WMDE> Denny_WMDE: not maint tags :)
6:54 PM <legoktm> things on the talk page are usually just wikiproject tags
6:54 PM <•Ironholds> or "this needs an image", and I think we stopped using that.
6:54 PM <•Ironholds> (or: use it very rarely)
6:55 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ironholds: but stuff like "this belongs to Wikiproject: Afrikaans Shakespeare translators"
6:55 PM <Denny_WMDE> and ratings of importance and quality
6:55 PM <•Ironholds> Denny_WMDE: yeah, metadata
6:55 PM <YairRand> using the talk page doesn't work all that well, imo. it's too far out the way.
6:55 PM <•Ironholds> indeed
6:55 PM <•Ironholds> also it introduces some ambiguity
6:55 PM InezK_away → InezK
6:56 PM <•Ironholds> Denny_WMDE: my suggestion would be; you're talking about how to store metadata. In wikidata.
6:56 PM <•Ironholds> which is a wiki, for data ;p.
6:56 PM <Denny_WMDE> :) indeed, a possibility would be to use wikidata itself
6:56 PM <•Ironholds> da
6:56 PM <•Ironholds> there's probably a more elegant way of doing it than a "write what the heck you want here" box
6:57 PM <Denny_WMDE> "instance of: Item to be deleted"
6:57 PM <•Ironholds> but that's your domain
6:57 PM <legoktm> hm
6:57 PM gwicke_away → gwicke
6:57 PM <legoktm> that would also work
6:57 PM <Denny_WMDE> "merge me with: Q19393"
6:57 PM <YairRand> Ironholds: oooh. I'm in favor :)
6:57 PM <•Ironholds> YairRand: I claim zero credit
6:57 PM <•Ironholds> mostly because I put in zero work ;p
6:58 PM <Denny_WMDE> OK - any last questions?
6:58 PM <•Ironholds> I'm not qualified to decide if it's a workable solution, but I'm sure y'all will have fun with it either way.
6:58 PM <marktraceur> Wait! We have minutes left! Is Wikibase deployed on Commons naow?
6:58 PM <Denny_WMDE> marktraceur: no, not yet
6:58 PM <T13> @link [[d:Q19393]]
6:58 PM <wm-bot>
6:58 PM <marktraceur> Mmmkay
6:58 PM — marktraceur waits
6:58 PM <Denny_WMDE> Phase 1 for Commons is to be deployed as the next sister project
6:58 PM <Denny_WMDE> probably in September
6:58 PM <marktraceur> Fun times
6:59 PM <JohnLewis> Hm.
6:59 PM <Denny_WMDE> Phase 1 = language links
6:59 PM <JohnLewis> Denny_WMDE: Also; Does WMDE have any idea when Phase 3 will be ready for deployment on any project? (as in, it is planned such as First quater of 2014 etc?)
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7:00 PM <Denny_WMDE> JohnLewis: when it's ready :P
7:00 PM <JohnLewis> :p
7:01 PM <Denny_WMDE> i have that high on my personal prioritiy list
7:01 PM <YairRand> sounds like an accurate approximation :)
7:01 PM <Denny_WMDE> and some great strides have been done on that lately
7:01 PM <Adam_WMDE> And we hit the hour!
7:01 PM <JohnLewis> Adam_WMDE: We hit 61 minutes :p
7:01 PM <Denny_WMDE> but it will involve a bit of deployment changes and stuff like this
7:01 PM <Denny_WMDE> which will make it a bit more complicated
7:01 PM <Denny_WMDE> I hope for Q4 of 2013, still, though
7:01 PM <Denny_WMDE> but I make no promises
7:01 PM <JohnLewis> Ok.
7:02 PM ⇐ jerome_ quit (6dbe6107@gateway/web/freenode/ip. Ping timeout: 250 seconds
7:02 PM <Denny_WMDE> ok. Since this is very likely my last office hour on this side of the office, I wanted to say: It was a great time, and thank you everyone being here and being on the project, and for your faith, and your hopes :) You are amazing. That's just a short thank you, a longer email will come when I actually will leave :)
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7:02 PM <Denny_WMDE> well then, time to close, Adam_WMDE ?
7:02 PM <Adam_WMDE> Indeed
7:03 PM <jem-> Thank you for all the work, Denny_WMDE, and extensive to the team :)
7:03 PM <Adam_WMDE> Thank you all for taking some time away for your busy lives to have a chat with us :)
7:03 PM <Adam_WMDE> The logs for this office hour will be available at shortly
7:04 PM <Adam_WMDE> And of course a bit thanks for Denny_WMDE ! :)
7:04 PM <Denny_WMDE> can someone put the topic of this room back?
7:05 PM •Ironholds set the topic: IRC office hours -