IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-10-02

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Chat on VisualEditor
Monday 2 October 2013
00:00 - 01:00 UTC

[00:00:14] <Maggie_Dennis> Hello, everyone, to the second office hour on VisualEditor. :)
[00:00:23] <ganimedes> hi
[00:00:28] <Shadowxfox> hello
[00:00:54] <Maggie_Dennis> I see we have with us at the moment James Forrester, who is the Project Manager, and Howie Fung, who is Director of Product Development.
[00:01:36] <ganimedes> good
[00:01:44] <James_F> Hello, everyone.
[00:01:46] <Maggie_Dennis> Oh, and now Erik Möller Deputy Director of the WMF and Vice President of Engineering and Product Development has joined us as well.
[00:01:46] <Shadowxfox> hi ! greetings
[00:02:21] <ganimedes> so, how this works?
[00:02:33] <James_F> So, yesterday we just asked for questions and answered them
[00:02:36] <James_F> Happy to do that here.
[00:02:41] <Maggie_Dennis> Unless James_F has any statements to make, this works with people asking questions, ganimedes. :)
[00:02:55] <Maggie_Dennis> I will try to keep track of them and we answer as many as we can before our hour runs.
[00:03:04] <Maggie_Dennis> After the session, the logs will be posted on Meta.
[00:03:15] <Maggie_Dennis> Please feel free to go ahead and ask your questions now.
[00:04:17] <Shadowxfox> perhaps this question is repetitive, but, what is the purpose of the visual editor ? is really neccesary ?
[00:04:28] <James_F> Shadowxfox: Good question.
[00:05:16] <James_F> Having a visual editor was talked about for ages (many years), but nothing really was done until the community-drafted Wikimedia Strategy in 2010.
[00:05:49] <James_F> That had a major item in it to create a proper "rich text editor", which the Wikimedia Foundation started work on in 2011.
[00:05:55] <jayvdb> there are 687 bugs (not incl. enhancement); what areas of VE are the dev team focusing their efforts on?
[00:05:59] <ganimedes> great, but experiment didn´t work, at least not completely
[00:06:49] <James_F> The reasons are set out best there, but mainly the reasoning comes down to having users being more easily able to edit - spending time on what they are editing (writing content) rather than how they are editing (complex syntax).
[00:07:11] <James_F> This means that the purpose of VisualEditor is to build a full editor for all of our content for all users.
[00:07:27] <James_F> Not just "newbies", not just "some content", but everything for everyone.
[00:07:39] <ganimedes> well, it´s true to text, but not for templates, or tables or cites, for example
[00:07:39] <James_F> This is… a big challenge, and we're not close to finished yet.
[00:08:10] <James_F> Frankly I don't expect VisualEditor to be "done" for many years, but we are getting closer all the time.
[00:08:22] <James_F> ganimedes: What experiment?
[00:08:42] <ganimedes> this one you`re describing
[00:08:55] <Shadowxfox> The visual editor is still in beta, why you put it as default on some wikis?
[00:09:06] <James_F> ganimedes: VisualEditor isn't an experiment; it's a project in progress.
[00:09:43] <James_F> ganimedes: It's true that it is a bit clunky to use VisualEditor to edit templates right now, and references are one of the big experience improvements we're focussing on right now.
[00:09:59] <ganimedes> maybe, but when you test something don`t start with the biggest number of users to be damaged
[00:10:18] <ganimedes> no, in es there´s no chance to edit template
[00:10:22] <ganimedes> or tables
[00:10:25] <ganimedes> or cites
[00:10:26] <James_F> ganimedes: Table structure may take a little longer to make editable, as it's not something that is easy to understand.
[00:10:40] <James_F> ganimedes: That's not true - you can edit every template and every reference.
[00:10:55] <ganimedes> no, every looks blue
[00:11:16] <James_F> ganimedes: Maybe discuss this offline? It works for other people…
[00:11:47] <Maggie_Dennis> James_F, jayvdb asked above "there are 687 bugs (not incl. enhancement); what areas of VE are the dev team focusing their efforts on?"
[00:11:48] <James_F> Shadowxfox: All software is always in a state of imperfection. I wouldn't pretend for a moment that VisualEditor is working well in some situations.
[00:11:52] <ganimedes> I´m not the only one with VE problems
[00:12:11] <Shadowxfox> the templates is not possible to edit
[00:12:22] <ganimedes> why to put it by default? You could did it different
[00:12:31] <Maggie_Dennis> ganimedes, I will record that question. :)
[00:12:36] <ganimedes> you know all imperfections´got
[00:12:40] <James_F> Shadowxfox: But if we develop software in an ivory tower and the only people that use the software are a small number of self-selected users we will have another disaster of development like Pending Changes was.
[00:12:59] <James_F> Shadowxfox: In that case, the only people talking about development were the "expert users".
[00:13:09] <ganimedes> more than 75% old users don´t use VE
[00:13:43] <James_F> Shadowxfox: They kept demanding extra features, extra complications, extra interface buttons - and made it too complex, without really examining the needs of the readers, of new users, of inexperienced users, of… other people.
[00:13:53] <Shadowxfox> I'm with ganimedes, not many people use the editor
[00:14:11] <ganimedes> why put Edit to VE and Edit code to WT? That confuses old users
[00:14:23] <ganimedes> and new don´t understand the difference
[00:15:01] <James_F> jayvdb: Yeah, there are lots of areas to work on; right now our priorities are improving language support, adding "quick add" citation templates to references, and fixing bugs around core editing (like copy and paste).
[00:15:06] <jayvdb> ganimedes: on English Wikipedia, the VE tabs are now 'edit' and 'edit beta' .
[00:15:27] <ganimedes> yes, but I´m from es, wich is why i´m here
[00:16:21] <jayvdb> James_F: Are other wikis going to have 'edit' and 'edit beta' tabs as well? I am surprised to see this change wasnt made on the other wikis as well for consistency sake
[00:16:27] <James_F> ganimedes: I'm not totally happy with "edit" and "edit source", but long-term VisualEditor will replace wikitext editing as the means by which almost all edits will be done.
[00:16:52] <ganimedes> good lord! God save us
[00:17:02] <James_F> ganimedes: Getting experienced users used to change now rather than in 3/6/12 months' time is mostly a question of judgement.
[00:17:28] <Shadowxfox> on the, the old editor and the VE has no difference, except for the word "source" which confuses old and new users
[00:17:49] <ganimedes> sorry, but you don´t need millions of comments to know a table is impossible to create in VE
[00:17:50] <James_F> jayvdb: The question of how to label the tabs is an open one, and I don't have a definite answer one way or the other.
[00:18:10] <James_F> ganimedes: It is coming. This is why I said "in the future".
[00:18:21] <jayvdb> It seems the product team is 100% committed to VE being the future. Has the product management team started working on a list of prerequisites that must be met before 'default opt-out' is forced onto the wikis again?
[00:18:39] <ganimedes> far far I hope
[00:18:58] <James_F> Shadowxfox: "Source" is the word used in MediaWiki for wikitext (for protected pages - "view source") and so we continued that, but I'd be happy to change to something better if you have one.
[00:20:08] <ganimedes> yes. "Edit" like usually to WT and "New Editor", "VE" or any other stuff to the other one
[00:20:09] <James_F> jayvdb: "Forced" is I think an unhelpful frame for configuration changes. In terms of "pre-requisites", that's surely something to work out with the wikis involved rather than making a top-down decision? I would rather not make the call that "enwiki will just have to live with it when I tell them to" or whatever.
[00:20:46] <James_F> ganimedes: "Usually"? But in 3/6/12 months it will not be true, and it will confuse people. VisualEditor is already proving to be a success for new users, despite the issues.
[00:20:59] <jayvdb> And would it be possible for keywords 'regression' and 'dataloss' (and possibly 'corruption') to be added to bugzilla to allow tracking issues
[00:21:35] <James_F> jayvdb: Sure - you should file a bugzilla ticket against Wikimedia > Bugzilla for that, I think. (It's not my call.)
[00:21:50] <jayvdb> James_F: well last time the WMF did force it, and enforce it, and write long emails telling us why that forcing was good for us
[00:21:56] <ganimedes> but 3/6/12 months it´s a lot. Why don´t you put it opt-in for 3/6/12 months and then we talk about how wonderfull it is??
[00:22:20] <ganimedes> why so hurry about VEÇ
[00:22:31] <Shadowxfox> in the Spanish Wikipedia we have problems with the use that people gives to this visual editor, especially because it helps to vandalism and confuses old users, is possible to leave the visual editor as an eligible tool and not as a default tool?
[00:22:32] <ganimedes> *VE?
[00:22:42] <James_F> ganimedes: It's been in opt-in since June 2012 on MediaWiki. Since December 2012 on enwiki. Since April 2012 on eswiki. I don't think over a year of testing is rushing.
[00:22:50] <jayvdb> Surely the WMF product team can come up with sensible prereq's , such as 'zero dataloss or corruption bugs', etc
[00:23:27] <ganimedes> sorry, test in other wikis, but opt-out in es almost from the beginning
[00:23:39] <ganimedes> and stil... doesn´t work
[00:23:59] <Steven_Zhang> Oh
[00:24:02] <Steven_Zhang> Office hours.
[00:24:22] <Steven_Zhang> Visual editor is awesome, imo
[00:24:23] <James_F> ganimedes: Have you filed a bugzilla ticket about not being able to use VisualEditor? I worry that a very serious issue like not being able to edit templates is being brought up for the first time…
[00:24:34] <howief> jayvdb: yes, we can come up with prerequisites
[00:24:42] <howief> though i think "zero data loss" is a very high bar
[00:24:44] <Maggie_Dennis> Thanks, Steven_Zhang. :) Welcome.
[00:25:26] <ganimedes> I don´t see the relationship with the rejects of mayor part of es:old users
[00:25:36] <James_F> Shadowxfox: I disagree that it is easier to vandalise Wikipedia using VisualEditor than wikitext. If anything, the reverse - it is much easier to tell that Foo -> Bar is a bad faith edit than '''Foo''' -> '''Foo'' or whatever.
[00:26:26] <James_F> Shadowxfox: Also, the numbers of accidental mis-formats (having to fix your syntax after saving) is zero with VisualEditor, obviously.
[00:26:34] <ganimedes> mmmmno, patrollers says is true, and any stats could corroborate if any
[00:27:00] <ganimedes> no, it´s not I self do wrong edits with VE
[00:27:13] <James_F> ganimedes: I don't see major issues in but that doesn't track reverts, to be fair.
[00:27:20] <Shadowxfox> some users perform mindless vandalism since the editor is the default visual, and they don't know how to reverse
[00:27:39] <jayvdb> it would be good to have a prereq that relates to feature parity with the source editor. obviously 100% feature parity is going to be impossible, but users obviously expect most features to work
[00:27:41] <James_F> ganimedes: It doesn't track reverts for VisualEditor against non-VisualEditor, I mean.
[00:27:52] <ganimedes> exactly
[00:27:53] <howief> here is the revert dashboard for es:
[00:28:10] <James_F> Shadowxfox: Why are they vandalising "mindlessly" with VisualEditor, but wouldn't with wikitext? I don't understand.
[00:28:17] <ganimedes> that´s the problem, there is not
[00:28:38] <ganimedes> but day by day those who reverts can prove
[00:29:09] <ganimedes> because as easy to write "good" is to put kcsadlfnaqruqhvbkvb WDV
[00:29:37] <ganimedes> but you miss because there is a label "VE" and no "possible vandalism"
[00:29:48] <James_F> jayvdb: Sure, but what does that actually mean in precise detail? Editing a table's cell to merge it? Adding a table caption? Adding the "sortable" flag to a table column? Moving (drag-and-drop) a table row to another position? Setting the formatting of a table? Etc.
[00:29:52] <ganimedes> for example
[00:30:26] <James_F> jayvdb: We could spend years just writing up each possible feature and whether or not it counts as "needed" for "switchover", and still reasonable people would disagree.
[00:30:27] <jayvdb> ftr, the Parsoid & VE products are pretty amazing in what they are doing, & the devs are doing a great job.
[00:30:52] <Shadowxfox> because some visual editor options do'nt work properly (like edit templates or references) and therefore they don't know they are committing vandalism
[00:31:01] <James_F> jayvdb: Some things (very minor things) we might stop supporting in MediaWiki itself (so then the ground changes beneath VisualEditor/Parsoid).
[00:31:29] <jayvdb> James_F: sure, but if you dont write anything, you dont have test plans to work to, and you'll be surprised how many expectations you didnt know about.
[00:31:30] <James_F> Shadowxfox: Again, could you link me to a bug report that details what is broken with editing templates so I can get it fixed?
[00:31:55] <ganimedes> once I clic in white space in intro and put an "delete" template, because fastbuttons are still there but you can´t see them
[00:32:33] <James_F> jayvdb: I didn't mean "years" figuratively. I'm not sure it's an appropriate expenditure of donor resources to spend US$200k on people doing that up-front.
[00:32:39] <ganimedes> so, it helps to vandaliz even if you are "good" edit
[00:33:19] <James_F> jayvdb: But yes, clearing up what expectations are would help, I agree.
[00:34:09] <James_F> ganimedes: I don't know what "fastbuttons" are. Do you have a link to an example?
[00:34:34] <jayvdb> you need a compact with the community. they may not agree with your defined list of what is and isnt going to be supported, but if there is no list, every missing feature is a bug rather than an enhancement
[00:35:50] <James_F> jayvdb: Which "community", though? Enwiki? Eswiki? Ptwiki? Why would one wiki's community have the right to decide what is and is not important for another's? Etc.
[00:36:02] <James_F> jayvdb: This is why we're keen to have as many wikis as possible
[00:36:04] <James_F> Bah.
[00:36:08] <ganimedes> they´re som buttons in top to patrol. I´ll upload some pictures, give me some min
[00:36:20] <jayvdb> earlier James_F said the priorities are 'improving language support, adding "quick add" citation templates to references, and fixing bugs around core editing (like copy and paste).' what can the community members do to help in those areas?
[00:36:25] <James_F> jayvdb: This is why we're keen to have as many wikis as possible take up VisualEditor and use it in "real life", so they can give real feedback.
[00:37:13] <James_F> jayvdb: So, for the citation templates, there is a current consultation going on asking for feedback on some designs that Kaity has proposed:
[00:37:39] <jayvdb> James_F, I appreciate the need to engage all communities, but the product feature list is global, unless you are going to have branches of the codebase for some projects
[00:37:54] <James_F> jayvdb: Reporting bugs into Bugzilla is hugely helpful (though yes, I'm rather behind in triaging them - sorry).
[00:38:23] <James_F> ganimedes: That sounds like a gadget of some kind? There aren't any buttons at the top to patrol for me on eswiki.
[00:38:42] <James_F> ganimedes: If so, you should work with the author of the gadget to get them to fix it so that it works with VisualEditor.
[00:38:59] <James_F> ganimedes: We don't support gadgets, and sometimes they can break quite badly. :-(
[00:39:04] <ganimedes> jejej, yes, I´m affraid so
[00:39:40] <ganimedes> problem is, it´s a very popular gadget
[00:39:56] <James_F> jayvdb: Indeed, but for example the response from Commons (quite rightly) has been that editing galleries is very important for them (as that's almost all that Commons has in the main namespace).
[00:40:01] <Shadowxfox> when a user enter in a particular article and intends to modify a template embedded in, this is deleted immediately, that is the problem to which I refer
[00:40:26] <James_F> ganimedes: But it works if you disable the gadget?
[00:40:31] <jayvdb> Regarding references, I think it is necessary to point out that non-enwp experience is going to be much improved if you fix bug 52581 (TemplateData: Implement inferred templatedata as fallback based on the contents of the template)
[00:41:21] <James_F> Shadowxfox: The template is deleted when you edit it? That sounds like a very unusual (and bad) bug - could you report it on Bugzilla so we can investigate?
[00:41:45] <ganimedes> why are usefull gadget then if you must disable EVERYTHING to make VE works?
[00:41:59] <jayvdb> there is code; the problem is quite simple. the UI is going to be much smoother if it can rely on knowing what the parameters are
[00:42:05] <ganimedes> and still, it´s to slow
[00:42:22] <Shadowxfox> and when a user is intended to include or modify a reference, it is not possible to do
[00:42:52] <James_F> jayvdb: I don't agree that bug 52581 is any better for non-en wiki than enwiki, unless I'm missing something? But yes, that's a possible improvement. However, actually writing real TemplateData is a much better step.
[00:43:14] <jayvdb>
[00:43:26] <ganimedes> to put a reference in es: it´s a birth
[00:43:29] <James_F> ganimedes: I think most gadgets should be moved into "real" code for all users on all wikis, but too often they get written only for one wiki, which means the rest of us don't get to benefit from them.
[00:43:55] <James_F> ganimedes: Yes, we want to improve speed, and we know that it is too slow, especially on very large articles.
[00:44:01] <ganimedes> sorry, but this time everybody will lose
[00:44:08] <ganimedes> aja
[00:44:10] <Shadowxfox> it's not an unusual bug, is what makes the VE when we try to make changes
[00:44:23] <James_F> Shadowxfox: OK, I will say it another way
[00:44:45] <James_F> Shadowxfox: I have never heard of this bug before. It sounds very bad. If you could give more details I can find out what is wrong.
[00:44:50] <jayvdb> James_F, well WMF has put a lot of resources into enwp templatedata ; the majority of templates are done, and the community is large enough to maintain the templatedata. on smaller wikis, templatedata is a maintenance workload and it will bitrot
[00:45:11] <James_F> Shadowxfox: But I can't really tell you what's wrong when you suddenly announce a bug in IRC. :-(
[00:45:15] <Maggie_Dennis> Ganimedes, I see that you've been active at, but that page has not been edited in some time. If there are major issues affecting your wiki, it's a really good idea to talk about them there. If needed, Jan (WMF) can certainly help make sure that these are in bugzilla.
[00:45:30] <Maggie_Dennis> And he can also directly tell developers about problems. :)
[00:45:51] <James_F> jayvdb: We've not done anything about TemplateData for the English Wikipedia that we haven't done for the Spanish Wikipedia, I believe.
[00:46:21] <James_F> jayvdb: And yes, bit-rot is a concern for me too - one of the things I would dearly love is a way to share templates (and so TemplateData) across wikis, so that all of us can benfit.
[00:46:24] <James_F> +e
[00:46:29] <Shadowxfox> I think this bug was announced on, but I can not find the address
[00:46:46] <James_F> jayvdb: But that's rather outside the scope of the VisualEditor team, and something that the Platform team would have to consider and build.
[00:47:44] <jayvdb> a central repository of module: and template: would be another solution, but bug 52581 is a quick win
[00:47:53] <ganimedes> we´re developing a poll about VE inmediate future in es: Will you respect results no matter what?
[00:48:11] <James_F> Maggie_Dennis: I think that page is getting updated tomorrow (with new designs based on feedback).
[00:48:24] <James_F> jayvdb: Quick not-very-win, you mean. :-)
[00:48:25] <Maggie_Dennis> Shadowxfox, would it be possible for you to send me an email or leave me a note on wiki with a brief explanation of the problem? I'll ask Jan (WMF) to look into it. I am; or
[00:48:34] <Maggie_Dennis> Oh, I'm sorry, James_F. I used the wrong link!
[00:48:57] <Maggie_Dennis> Ganimedes, that must have confused you. :) My apologies. I'm talking about
[00:49:03] <Maggie_Dennis> There; it pasted the right link this time.
[00:49:16] <Maggie_Dennis> That is the feedback page on the Spanish Wikipedia.
[00:49:23] <James_F> Ah.
[00:49:25] <James_F> ganimedes: I don't think a poll is a great way to engage in making VisualEditor better. It is very hard to have a proper discussion if you're voting rather than trying to improve things.
[00:50:14] <James_F> ganimedes: However, if consensus for the Spanish Wikipedia is that they wish to roll back to opt-in, and postpone roll-out of VisualEditor for some time, that is of course fine (but I think a bad move).
[00:50:25] <ganimedes> I think you don´t need many of ours comments, since gadgets are unics and problem of their developments,
[00:50:48] <ganimedes> you won´t fix anything not related with VE even when VE broke it
[00:50:50] <James_F> ganimedes: We should still make sure that we know that all your problems can be fixed, though! Even if they are from gadgets.
[00:51:11] <ganimedes> and you know how much and where to change to make it work
[00:51:16] <James_F> ganimedes: There are very few things broken by VE that aren't related to VE - what are you thinking of?
[00:51:30] <Shadowxfox> Maggie_Dennis, ok, I'll try to describe the problem as detailed as possible in the direction you just send me
[00:51:39] <Maggie_Dennis> Thank you, Shadowxfox!
[00:51:43] <ganimedes> nowiki; quikedit
[00:51:50] <ganimedes> fastbuttons
[00:51:53] <Shadowxfox> sorry, email
[00:52:23] <Maggie_Dennis> Either way, I'll ask Jan to take a look so we can check the status in bugzilla. :)
[00:52:32] <James_F> ganimedes: The <nowiki> problem in VisualEditor is definitely something we have been fixing.
[00:52:32] <ganimedes> this happen editing with VE:
[00:52:36] <Maggie_Dennis> If it's not there already, we need to make sure it gets there.
[00:52:43] <ganimedes> see template?
[00:53:14] <ganimedes> as you fix template problem? I don´t think so
[00:53:29] <James_F> ganimedes: Ah, interesting. I don't have that problem.
[00:53:44] <ganimedes> well, we have
[00:53:53] <Maggie_Dennis> Ganimedes, I tried it, and when I do I get a puzzle piece next to the blue template box.
[00:53:59] <Maggie_Dennis> Clicking on that makes it possible to edit the template.
[00:54:08] <Maggie_Dennis> Do you see the puzzle piece? Or is something interfering with that?
[00:54:17] <James_F> ganimedes: See
[00:54:36] <Shadowxfox> in addition to Ganimedes said, the visual editor selects the entire template and not leave edit anything inside
[00:54:38] <James_F> ganimedes: (The big red background is my personal CSS and you can ignore it.)
[00:54:49] <ganimedes> ahhm so, does should be "intuitive"?
[00:55:02] <James_F> Shadowxfox: Yeah, that sounds very bad and is definitely not what should be happening.
[00:55:38] <ganimedes> why there is a giant space at top?
[00:55:47] <Maggie_Dennis> (I have to give the five minute warning. We only have 5 minutes left.)
[00:56:54] <ganimedes> I´m not convince you could not develope VE with an opt-in in es: Few are leaving feedback anyway
[00:57:32] <Shadowxfox> that's one of the problems, other is inclusion of wiki codes, which often do not work
[00:57:45] <James_F> ganimedes: We don't just need the written feedback, we also need the data from how people edit.
[00:58:14] <ganimedes> but data says people prefer not to edit with VE
[00:58:18] <James_F> ganimedes: The line at the top is called a "slug", and it's a space for you to put the cursor ahead of floated content (like an infobox in this case).
[00:58:21] <jayvdb> James_F: I dont think you have answered "we´re developing a poll about VE inmediate future in es: Will you respect results no matter what?"
[00:58:33] <Maggie_Dennis> Written feedback is good, too, though! Especially if you are having an issue people aren't anticipating or having on other projects.
[00:58:34] <jayvdb> i.e. yes or no ? or 'it depends'
[00:58:40] <howief> ganimedes: also, with opt-in, anonymous users wouldn't be able to edit with ve
[00:59:04] <ganimedes> IP are using VE to vandalism
[00:59:05] <jayvdb> I have raised for new keywords for dataloss and corruption
[00:59:11] <ganimedes> maybe it´s and advantage
[00:59:35] <James_F> jayvdb: The phrase was "that is of course fine".
[00:59:37] <Maggie_Dennis> We have one minute left.
[00:59:52] <James_F> jayvdb: I.e. "yes". :-)
[01:00:07] <Shadowxfox> as time is running out, we need to do to hear about these problems? not only the bugs of this tool but it's use by the community
[01:00:12] <James_F> ganimedes: IPs use wikitext to vandalise too.
[01:00:12] <ganimedes> jayvdb: don´t worry, i´ve been asking over and over and nobody give a direct answer
[01:00:19] <jayvdb> James_F: ah I see it now; thanks
[01:00:26] <James_F> ganimedes: I just answered you.
[01:00:42] <James_F> Shadowxfox: I don't understand the question?
[01:00:45] <Maggie_Dennis> I'm afraid it's time to wrap up.
[01:00:49] <Shadowxfox> sorry, is a mistake
[01:00:54] <ganimedes> no, you didn´t answer
[01:01:23] <jayvdb> ganimedes: James_F siad: "ganimedes: However, if consensus for the Spanish Wikipedia is that they wish to roll back to opt-in, and postpone roll-out of VisualEditor for some time, that is of course fine (but I think a bad move)."
[01:01:23] <James_F> Shadowxfox: Send me or Maggie the question by e-mail or on wiki so I can follow-up?
[01:01:25] <ganimedes> don´t worry, it´s more accurate to close office
[01:01:42] <Shadowxfox> ok James_F
[01:01:59] <jayvdb> Thanks Maggie for facilitating this office hours
[01:02:06] <James_F> Yes, thank you Maggie_Dennis. :-)
[01:02:11] <howief> yes, thank you Maggie_Dennis
[01:02:11] <Maggie_Dennis> Thank you for attending, jayvdb. And Shadowxfox and ganimedes. :)
[01:02:16] * Jamesofur cheers for Maggie�
[01:02:18] <ganimedes> bye
[01:02:22] <Maggie_Dennis> And thank you, howief and James_F for answering questions.
[01:02:29] <Maggie_Dennis> I'll post the logs of this in a few minutes.
[01:02:34] <Shadowxfox> ok, bye !
[01:02:36] <howief> bye!
[01:02:38] <Maggie_Dennis> Shadowxfox, I look forward to your email. :)
[01:02:38] <James_F> Thank you all!
[01:02:42] <Maggie_Dennis> Bye!