IRC office hours/Office hours 2014-02-21-mm

From Meta, a Wikimedia project coordination wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Office hours log for the Media Viewer discussion hosted by Fabrice Florin and the Multimedia Team on Feb. 21 , 2014 at 18:00 UTC
18:02:24 <fabriceflorin> Hi folks, welcome to our IRC Chat about Media Viewer.
18:02:34 <fabriceflorin> Who all is here to talk about multimedia?
18:02:36 <greg-g> gwicke: is the convo going somewhere else? or shall I stop looking in various channels? :)
18:02:59 <Keegan> fabriceflorin: I'm here :)
18:03:08 <brion> woo multimedia!
18:03:22 <bawolff> Double meeting feature!
18:03:23 <fabriceflorin> Today's focus is going to be on the Media Viewer, which our multimedia team has been developing in recent months. Learn more here:
18:03:30 <fabriceflorin>
18:03:46 <fabriceflorin> Hey brion and bawolff, so glad you're both here :)
18:03:47 <gwicke> greg-g, I'm in #wikimedia-dev if anybody want to continue the discussion
18:03:58 <fabriceflorin> Anyone else joining us for the Media Viewer chat?
18:04:15 <fabriceflorin> OK, let's get started then.
18:04:32 <fabriceflorin> Hi, I’m Fabrice, multimedia product manager at Wikimedia Foundation, and I will be hosting this discussion along with our team members …
18:04:43 <fabriceflorin> gi11es is our senior software engineer, rdwrer is front-end engineer, tgr is back-end engineer, pginer is our designer and Keegan is community liaison
18:04:55 <fabriceflorin> Please say hello to our wonderful multimedia team :)
18:05:15 <Keegan> Hi team!
18:05:21 <rillke> Hello, team.
18:05:28 * chrismcmahon1 lurks for the MMV discussion
18:05:44 <fabriceflorin> Hi rillke, so happy to see you again! Hope all is well with you ...
18:06:01 <fabriceflorin> Hey DarTar, thanks for joining our conversation about Media Viewer :)
18:06:28 <fabriceflorin> Today, we would like to discuss new features for this multimedia browser, which we developed based on feedback from community and team members like you. Here’s what we’re working on now: faster image load, better user interface, more meta-data, attribution and permissions -- and an improved ‘use this file’ tool with share, embed and download options.
18:06:42 <brion> awesome
18:06:51 <fabriceflorin> For a quick overview of Media Viewer, check out this page:
18:06:52 <fabriceflorin>
18:07:26 <fabriceflorin> We also invite you to participate in our ongoing discussion about Media Viewer here:
18:07:27 <fabriceflorin>
18:08:11 <fabriceflorin> And for a glimpse of the underlying vision behind Media Viewer, we have a cool video here on Commons:
18:08:47 <fabriceflorin> Sorry, here's the video page:
18:09:00 <rdwrer> #link
18:09:14 <fabriceflorin> So the basic purpose of Media Viewer is to improve the viewing experience for all users, so they can see images in large size, the way they were meant to be seen ...
18:10:07 <fabriceflorin> But this new multimedia layer also gives us an opportunity to engage users to use the files in different ways, so they become part of our multimedia ecosystem as active contributors.
18:10:43 <fabriceflorin> So we are hopeful that over time this simple feature can make a big difference in helping our community share media-rich content that can help us all learn in better ways.
18:11:02 <fabriceflorin> So that's the big picture. Now let's dive in to the new features.
18:11:45 <rdwrer> #topic Media Viewer 0.2 status
18:11:57 <fabriceflorin> Mark , er rdwrer , would you like to give us an overview of what you've been working on lately? Maybe point folks to a demo where they can see your new features?
18:12:09 <rdwrer> Sure!
18:12:34 <rdwrer> Let's see. The team has indeed been focusing on a much snappier load of images, that's been a huge priority in the past few weeks.
18:12:59 <rdwrer> We've also been working on nicer-looking interfaces and pulling more important stuff into the before-the-fold bits of the interface
18:13:37 <Dragonfly6-7> I don't suppose there'd be a way to more clearly distinguish "date of file creation" from "date of file upload" ?
18:13:41 <Dragonfly6-7> because that's been a serious problem./
18:13:43 <rdwrer> And last but certainly not least, adding more information - the media viewer now shows you file usage and categories, and fun things like assessments (POTY, POTM, etc.) are on the way
18:14:02 <rdwrer> Dragonfly6-7: "yes" - we have a message for each and prefer creation, show upload if creation is not present.
18:14:03 <fabriceflorin> Hey jfelipe Revi alantz OwynD : welcome to our chat about Media Viewer, which you can learn more about here:
18:14:22 <rdwrer> Or I think that's how we do it.
18:14:31 * rdwrer is second-guessing
18:14:31 <bawolff> fabriceflorin: in regards to "But this new multimedia layer also gives us an opportunity to engage users to use the files in different ways, so they become part of our multimedia ecosystem as active contributors" - what exactly does that mean
18:14:37 <jfelipe> thanks fabriceflorin
18:14:40 <rdwrer> Nope, I was right
18:14:49 "< mark >" rdwrer: so what's being done to have much snappier loading of images?
18:15:17 <rillke> bawolff, good question, sounds too abstact for me, too
18:15:25 <rdwrer> mark: Mostly stuff on the frontend - tackling the thumbnailing systems will be a much bigger task.
18:15:42 <gi11es> mark: preloading next and previous image, fullscreen image (if different)
18:15:45 <rdwrer> mark: We bucket image thumbnail requests into a set of predefined sizes, for example
18:15:48 <rdwrer> And that.
18:16:15 <rdwrer> mark: We're also looking into putting the thumbnail into the interface first, blurred, so the screen isn't totally blank.
18:16:26 "< mark >" I see... thanks
18:16:32 <rdwrer> mark: Mostly it's perception, not backend performance improvements :)
18:16:38 <gi11es> also visual tricks to make things feel snappier
18:16:50 <Keegan> rdwrer: re: blurring, not a bad idea
18:16:59 <gi11es> backend improvements are pending works from ops, the discussion has happened with paravoid
18:17:03 <rdwrer> Keegan: We go back and forth on it, but I think we've settled.
18:17:12 <fabriceflorin> bawolff: We think the new 'use this file' tool which rdwrer is working on can make it much easier for people to reuse media in a variety of ways, and makes these features more prominent, right on the site where you are viewing the content. Here are some specs and screenshots about this awesome tool:
18:17:16 <Keegan> Sure. It's a take it or leave it
18:17:18 <bawolff> rdwrer: Arguably you are increasing cache hit rate, so that will help back end servers
18:17:27 <rdwrer> bawolff: Ideally!
18:17:41 <rdwrer> #link
18:17:54 <fabriceflorin> Hey gi11es, do you have a link to the video you made to show how the blurred thumbnail can effectively cover image load?
18:17:58 <rdwrer> That's a labs instance that has the viewer enabled by default for everyone (even logged-out), so it's my go-to choice for demos
18:18:13 <gi11es> fabriceflorin: I'll dig it up
18:18:31 <rdwrer> It doesn't have a few brand-spankin'-new features, but it has a work in progress version of the new file reuse panel
18:18:55 <rdwrer> You can find that in the bottom right corner of the lightbox when you open it
18:19:09 <Keegan> I don't think new features matter near as much as making things like reuse and download more fluid
18:19:29 <rdwrer> Keegan: Indeed - which is why we're working on that this week and next. :)
18:19:32 <Keegan> When I see a current file page, I feel like I'm looking at one of those horrible free upload sites :)
18:19:33 <gi11es> (excuse the non-free format) this is a screencap I recorded when we were prototyping the blurry thumbnail + progress bar
18:19:55 <Keegan> So many boxes!
18:19:56 <fabriceflorin> Thanks, Gilles! BTW, this is a good opportunity to introduce gi11es, our senior engineer and latest team member, who joins us from France, where he worked at DeviantArts. In a moment, he can tell us a bit more about his background and what he hopes to accomplish here at with our multimedia team.
18:20:00 <gi11es> the real deal is a changeset currently in review, so we should be to see it in action in a few days
18:20:13 <bawolff> Not sure if this is too technical a question given the intended demographic of this office hours, but what sort of ops work are you considering to improve file render time? (And are there notes to that somewhere on wiki?)
18:20:21 <chrismcmahon1>
18:20:36 <gi11es> bawolff: the plan is to prerender the thumbnail buckets at upload time
18:20:43 <rdwrer> Also, we did some fun work on making the modules for the extension not load until needed, and have been working on technical debt, making the codebase easier to work with and contribute to.
18:20:50 <gi11es> the blocker right now is capacity and the fact that we keep all thumbnails forever in storage
18:20:55 <rdwrer> I think that's all I've got
18:21:12 <rdwrer> There are maybe other things I'm missing but fabriceflorin didn't warn me I'd need to talk about this. :)
18:21:15 <bawolff> gi11es: Oh, I was hoping that you would find some magic way to render them on demand instantly :P
18:22:04 <fabriceflorin> Thanks, rdwrer, really appreciate this overview. gi11es, as our new team member, want to give us a bit of background on who you are, what you are working on and plan to accomplish with Media Viewer?
18:23:04 <gi11es> I joined the WMF in January. I used to work at deviantART, where I've worked on very similar projects (media display, upload, etc.)
18:23:16 <Dragonfly6-7> so you're a professional deviant?
18:23:25 <rdwrer> Dragonfly6-7: Yeah, he fits right in
18:23:52 <rillke> gi11es: You surely should have chosen another user name in the video.
18:25:10 <fabriceflorin> Hey Deskana, mindspillage, Dragonfly6-7, ppena : thanks for joining our chat about Media Viewer. We're discussing some of the new features described here:
18:26:05 <fabriceflorin> rdwrer: Could you give us a bit more info on the 'Use this file' tool you're working on? A quick overview of the Share, Embed and Download functions?
18:26:18 <rdwrer> I mean, sure, briefly
18:26:31 <gi11es> rillke: I thought I was recording this for an audience of 2-3 people, so didn't bother changing my local install's username, etc. had I known it'd be shared today, I would have switched :)
18:26:48 <rdwrer> The panel uses the new oojs-ui library that the VE team was working on, which has been a fun experience
18:27:14 <fabriceflorin> Here's a screenshot of the Embed tool, based on a design by pginer : Viewer embed.png
18:27:28 <rdwrer> We're implementing the three choices for how to reuse a file - share, which basically just means linking someone to it; embed, which means putting it in a wiki page or HTML page somewhere; and download, which is what you'd expect
18:27:57 <fabriceflorin> You can see an early alpha version of the Share and Embed tools on this prototype site:
18:28:02 <rdwrer> We get the fun task of sorting out all of the resizing and thumbnailing and URL options for you on the backend of this feature, which is causing us some small amount of grief, but the interface is looking purty
18:28:30 <fabriceflorin> Our hope is that by making the Use this File tool more prominent right below the image, this will encourage more folks to make use of the amazing content that's on Commons :)
18:29:47 <Dragonfly6-7> fabriceflorin - we also need to encourage folks to read the reuse terms
18:29:48 <fabriceflorin> So stay tuned for a shiny new 'Use this file' tool, coming in a few weeks to a screen near you :) Please let us know how we can improve it on this discussion page:
18:30:04 <Dragonfly6-7> I've seen far too many pictures on other websites credited to "Wikimedia Commons", with no further details
18:30:06 <rdwrer> Dragonfly6-7: We have links to the authour, source, and license in the default attribution strings for both formats.
18:30:22 <rdwrer> We can't stop people from changing it, but it's there. :)
18:30:27 <rdwrer> Oh wait, no, only for HTML.
18:30:39 <rdwrer> We've changed that decision a lot this week. :)
18:31:04 <fabriceflorin> tgr: Would you like to tell us a bit about what you have been working on? We'd love to hear about new improvements you are making to show more attributions, license info and permissions, so people know how to use the files.
18:31:10 <bawolff> fabriceflorin: I'm not seeing a share and embed tool on the link you gave
18:31:30 <bawolff> err never mind
18:31:34 <rdwrer> bawolff: The bottom-right corner of the main lightbox view, the top-right corner of the metadata panel
18:31:36 <bawolff> clicked on the wrong link
18:31:37 <rdwrer> Oh, 'kay
18:31:41 * bawolff hangs head
18:31:47 <rdwrer> No worries!
18:32:04 <bawolff> So where does the "share" section go
18:32:16 <tgr> hi all
18:32:19 <bawolff> As in, does it go to facebook
18:32:20 <rdwrer> bawolff: It's just a link to the description page
18:32:31 <rdwrer> We don't have any integration with any sites yet
18:32:37 <fabriceflorin> Dragonfly6-7: I couldn't agree more with you. That's why we're working extra hard to make sure that all required attributions are prominently included in both the Embed and Download features, in addition to displaying them in the Media Viewer itself. For example, take a look at this gory spec:
18:32:53 <rdwrer> bawolff: We're cognisant of the controversy we'd have to deal with :) we'll address that when we have to.
18:33:00 * sumanah looks forward to Use This File tool! just wanted it today
18:33:03 <tgr> we have been developing a new API to get image details based on the description page templates, such as author name, license, description
18:33:15 <bawolff> rdwrer: That was why I was asking :)
18:33:16 <tgr> you can find the details at
18:33:22 <rdwrer> sumanah: It exists in the current version in a different form
18:33:31 <fabriceflorin> And here's the spec for the new and improved Download tool -- can't wait to use these tools:
18:33:41 <rdwrer> There's a link in the metadata panel that opens a dialog
18:33:46 <rdwrer> But ew, jquery.dialog
18:33:49 <rdwrer> Who wants that
18:33:53 <rdwrer> So we're making it more better.
18:33:59 <tgr> (hat tip to bawolff who wrote the first version)
18:34:15 * rdwrer applauds bawolff
18:34:17 * bawolff didn't do all that much :)
18:34:32 <fabriceflorin> Sorry, tar, didn't mean to interrupt you. Please go on about the fine work you are doing with CommonsMetadata (which was initially started by the one and only bawolff - go team!)
18:34:33 <bawolff> you guys have taken it much further since then
18:34:36 <tgr> it is intended to be a temporary measure until Commons gets something like Wikidata
18:36:14 <tgr> so in the current version of the MultimediaViewer you can see who was the author of the work, when it was created, on what pages it is used, what kind of license it has
18:36:44 <fabriceflorin> sumanah: Glad you like the new 'User this file' tool design from pginer -- I think improving the UI will go a long way towards making these features usable by people who are not so tech-savvy.
18:37:32 <tgr> in a week or two, it will display extra permissions (based on the Information template), file assessments (featured image, POTD in 2012 etc)
18:39:05 <dschwen> hi all, is the multimedia office hour still going on?
18:39:11 <gi11es> dschwen: yes
18:39:13 <Dragonfly6-7> Technically
18:39:15 <rdwrer> dschwen: That's what the topic says! :)
18:39:20 <dschwen> :-)
18:39:30 <fabriceflorin> Thanks, tar: Here is a screnshot that shows the new Meta-Data panel for Media Viewer:
18:39:31 <bawolff> Usually these things end up lasting an hour
18:40:05 <rdwrer> s/screenshot/mockup/
18:40:09 <rdwrer> Important distinction
18:40:12 <gi11es> something I forgot to mention earlier is that we've started doing detailed network measurement of images and API requests
18:40:34 <gi11es> which should help us monitor the performance really experienced by users
18:40:34 <bawolff> rdwrer: Any plans for where the "more" section is coming from?
18:40:41 <fabriceflorin> The 'See Terms' indicator next to the license info is intended to alert people there are special permissions, and clicking on it would display more permissions info over the image ...
18:41:00 <dschwen> wil the "(Location Icon) from Wikimedia Commons" have functionality?
18:41:17 <rdwrer> bawolff: Heh. I'd say "things in this page" or "things in the categories on this file" but it's still up in the air.
18:41:20 * bawolff ideally would love to see it come from Featured/quality/valued images that are in same categories say using dschwen's tool
18:41:25 <rdwrer> We may wind up doing some combination.
18:41:26 <fabriceflorin> ... using this type of popup panel:
18:41:43 <rdwrer> dschwen: It already does!
18:41:46 <brion> pretty!
18:41:49 <dschwen> oh
18:41:53 <rdwrer> dschwen: It links to the file pagfe
18:41:54 <rdwrer> page
18:42:14 <dschwen> oh, not to a map?
18:42:28 <rdwrer> dschwen: Ohhh I see what you mean, there are two instances of that string
18:42:31 <fabriceflorin> dschwen: Eventually, the Location icon would display the place name, as well as link to info about nearby content, even a wikimap. But we're taking it one step at a time. :)
18:42:31 <brion> are there plans to bring video playback into the new viewer too?
18:42:36 <rdwrer> dschwen: But same answer - it already does!
18:42:49 <rdwrer> dschwen: We have it hooked up to geohack, and it shows the coordinates in the UI
18:42:56 <rdwrer> All i18n'd and everything too
18:42:58 <brion> nice
18:43:01 <rdwrer> That was complicated as all hell to set up
18:43:39 <fabriceflorin> ... so we are putting a lot of work to make sure that key meta-data is included near the image, as well as in the embed and download attributions, so we honor the terms of our contributors ...
18:43:48 <gi11es> brion: yes, video is on the roadmap
18:43:50 <bawolff> Actually on that note (brion's comment) - not to redirect the conversation too much, but what is the status of new kultura library in TMH?
18:44:00 <rillke> rdwrer: Dschen is a volunteer and created WikiMiniAtlas, I think.
18:44:10 <rillke> *Dschwen
18:44:12 <rdwrer> rillke: I know dschwen :)
18:44:15 <gi11es> bawolff: we've talked to kaltura this week, we're going to share the work on upgrading to kaltura 2.0
18:44:27 <dschwen> yay
18:44:30 <bawolff> Do you know what the timeframe for that looks like?
18:44:31 <gi11es> the current plan is they upgrade, we review
18:44:38 <fabriceflorin> pginer: Would you like to tell folks about some of the designs you are working on for the next version 0.3 of Media Viewer, as described here?
18:44:46 <bawolff> dschwen: Wow, you just do all the cool things. I had no idea you were behind wikiminiatlas
18:44:55 <gi11es> fabriceflorin: has kaltura committed to a timeline? I don't recall
18:45:05 <brion> spiffy
18:45:25 <bawolff> Even just roughly. Are we talking a month, 2 months, 6 months, a year, etc?
18:45:29 <rillke> rdwrer: just because you said "complicated as all hell to set up"
18:45:40 * bawolff should probably be asking mdale this I suppose
18:45:45 <rdwrer> Oh, huh
18:45:47 <rdwrer> 'kay
18:46:07 <fabriceflorin> Our hope is to complete a minimum viable product for Version v0.2 in coming weeks (better image load, improved Use this file, more meta-data) and test it on a few pilot sites at the end of the quarter.
18:46:55 <fabriceflorin> Then we would catch up on outstanding bugs, fix or tweak features based on pilot test feedback, before a wider deployment next quarter.
18:47:03 <pginer> The basic idea of the designs is to provide a design framework where all kinds of media can be supported in a consistent way
18:47:34 <Keegan> fabriceflorin: by wider deployment you mean out of Beta Features and "turned on default"
18:47:39 <fabriceflorin> Once v0.2 is up and running, we would start work on v0.3, with more audio-visual file support, as described now by pginer .
18:48:07 <fabriceflorin> Keegan: Yes, wider deployment would mean turning on Media Viewer by default.
18:48:19 <brion> yay
18:48:44 <Keegan> Just clarifying :)
18:48:51 <rdwrer> #topic Media Viewer 0.2 release plan
18:48:55 <rdwrer> Sigh
18:48:56 <gi11es> the current design is focused on images, video, audio and multipage documents (pdfs, slideshows). on the technical end we aim to make this modular in order to let volunteers easily write a plugin to support a new format
18:49:19 <Keegan> Poor meetbot. S/he's new.
18:49:31 <rdwrer> Buggy more like it
18:49:44 <rdwrer> fabriceflorin: Are we doing on-by-default for logged-out users, or only logged-in?
18:49:58 <fabriceflorin> gi11es: Our partner Kaltura is still evaluating how long it would take them to integrate their audio-visual player into Media Viewer v0.3, but I expect that it will take a couple months from now to get something up and running. To get ready for this we are starting the design now, even though most of our short-term focus will be on the current version v0.2
18:51:17 <fabriceflorin> rdwrer: The current goal is to deploy gradually, starting with logged-in users (required to test the beta version), then making it by default for logged-in users, then opening it up to logged out users. This seems like a sensible way to do this, if practical.
18:51:30 <rdwrer> 'kay, awesome
18:52:35 <fabriceflorin> So for now, we encourage everyone to help us test the current version v0.2, following these test instructions:
18:52:51 <bawolff> I hope its ok to ask a somewhat digressing question - the MP4 rfc is now closed, and the result was negative. Originally there was a comment that video plans would be re-evaluated after the rfc. Have they been? Is there a new plan, or is that to come?
18:53:12 <fabriceflorin> After you've tested, please let us know what you like, what bugs you, and what features are missing on this discussion page:
18:53:46 <gi11es> bawolff: we've been exploring alternatives, such as partnering with sites like vimeo or youtube to do imports similar to flickr
18:53:53 <rillke> fabriceflorin: Please only deploying software that works reliably. I am still not using VE because of the first unfortunate impressions I got and I guess it's the same with a lot of fellow users.
18:53:53 <fabriceflorin> We encourage you to bookmark that discussion page, so you can come back to it often. Note that it lists the features that are now ready for testing, separately from the feature that are coming soon ...
18:54:47 <gi11es> bawolff: we would only be importing open formats from them. the discussion with vimeo was very encouraging, they're really motivated to help us in any way they can
18:55:14 <fabriceflorin> rillke: Thanks for your words of wisdom. I'm on your side: I've always been a big fan of careful, gradual releases -- even if other people are sometimes more impatient :)
18:55:17 <gi11es> vimeo supports CC licenses, so in that sense it could be very similar to the way the flickr import works
18:56:16 <brion> i'm also spending some research time on fallback Theora/Vorbis players for browsers that would otherwise have been served by MP4
18:56:26 <tgr> bawolff: you mentioned dschwen's tool for finding quality images, is that fastcci?
18:56:29 <brion> getting encouraging results with JavaScript on newer browsers
18:56:32 <bawolff> tgr: yes
18:56:39 <brion> and I've got some avenues to explore with Flash (yes, Flash!) for older browsers
18:56:40 <fabriceflorin> gi11es: Thanks for bringing this up. We're in exploratory discussions with other large multimedia sites about providing a simple way for folks to import CC-BY content in WebM format from large video repositories that support our cause :)
18:57:01 <brion> we also have some low-hanging fruit to fix in the existing Java player
18:57:37 <brion> for iOS, easiest thing in the medium term is to link out to the VLC app, which is free and open source
18:57:47 <brion> (and is based in france so has different patent requirements than us!)
18:58:03 <fabriceflorin> OK, folks, we're approaching the end of our talk. Are there any last important questions we haven't addressed in today's chat?
18:58:36 <gi11es> brion: is the app being preferred over the library because of the patent issues?
18:58:53 <fabriceflorin> We plan to have multimedia chats like these on a monthly basis, but you are welcome to come ring our bell anytime at #wikimedia-multimedia
18:59:01 <brion> gi11es: library is a possibility long-term but we'll have to look into legal issues as well as technical ones yes
18:59:20 <brion> i.e., make sure we don't ship restricted codecs with our version
18:59:54 <fabriceflorin> Also, we will send regular email updates on our multimedia mailing list. If you are not yet on it, we invite you to subscribe here, so we can stay in touch:
18:59:57 <brion> right now the build system expects to compile in everything, which we'd have to change
19:00:13 <bawolff> brion: [Slightly off-topic, but you likely know the answer]: If I wanted to see libav we use recompiled to support VP9 and Opus, should I just file an RT ticket, or would there be a better approach for me making that happen
19:00:31 <brion> bawolff: probably an RT ticket yeah
19:00:36 <brion> CC me on that for reference
19:00:41 * bawolff puts that on his todo list
19:00:58 <fabriceflorin> If you would like to track our progress with all these features, here's our Mingle project management site
19:01:09 <bawolff> From what I'd understand we would have to use git master as libav makes releases pretty much never - would that be a problem?
19:01:55 <brion> it might be :D we'll work it out
19:02:17 <Keegan> Thanks for all the info, folks
19:02:19 <bawolff> ok. Anyways, I'll file the ticket, and we'll see where it goes
19:03:00 <fabriceflorin> For the next few weeks, we welcome your good advice on this discussion page, which is the best place for us to stay in touch, so we can improve this product together and provide a better experience for all users:
19:03:44 <fabriceflorin> I'd like to thank everyone for joining this chat today, and look forward to more productive conversations in coming months. Please let us know what we can do to better serve our multimedia users :)
19:04:27 <rdwrer> #endmeeting