IRC office hours/Office hours 2014-04-17

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Log

[18:57:33] <guillom> Greetings. In a few minutes, we'll start a session to discuss https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Phabricator
[19:01:26] <guillom> I'm going to wait a few more minutes before starting
[19:02:00] <guillom> In the meantime, please raise your hands if you're here to learn more about Phabricator (or more generally discuss the RFC) :)
[19:02:11] <Nikerabbit> I'm lurking
[19:02:32] -*- bd808 is interested in hearing the discussion
[19:02:57] <guillom> okay :)
[19:02:59] <guillom> Anyone else?
[19:03:11] <LilleRijsel> need help?
[19:03:12] <apergos> lurking plus tracking the impact on ops
[19:03:38] <guillom> apergos: great
[19:04:01] <guillom> So, I guess I'm going to start with a quick recap
[19:04:08] <guillom> just so everyone is caught up
[19:04:25] <guillom> Please interrupt me as needed, I don't want this to turn into a monologue :)
[19:05:03] <guillom> So, once upon a time, there was bugzilla. Then, came CodeReview, and gerrit, and Jenkins, and Mingle, and Trello, etc.
[19:05:56] <guillom> We're currently using a multitude of separate tools in the development chain. Some have different purposes (bugzilla is for bugs, gerrit for code review, for example), and some have the same use (Trello and Mingle are both Project management/Agile tools)
[19:06:37] <guillom> A few months ago, Andre Klapper and I started to facilitate a review process to evaluate if we could decrease the number of tools, to make it easier for everyone
[19:07:06] <guillom> Many people got involved, to explain what their needs are, which tools they use, and to evaluate a few options
[19:07:46] <guillom> The option that seems the most promising is Phabricator, a single tool that handles bug management, code review, and project management, among others
[19:08:42] <guillom> There is now a Request for Comment on mediawiki.org to evaluate is Phabricator can indeed meet our needs, and determine if, as a community, we think consolidating all our tools into one is worth the switching costs
[19:08:52] <bawolff> Linky?
[19:08:55] <guillom> The RFC is at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Phabricator
[19:08:57] <guillom> :)
[19:09:13] <bd808> I imagine there will be a lot of "ZOMG my favorite feature of X isn't here" but I think having issues and code review and planning all in one pile would be worth the pain of learning a new set of tools.
[19:09:22] <guillom> There is a test instance of Phabricator at http://fab.wmflabs.org/ . Anyone can create an account and test
[19:09:56] <guillom> bd808: One of the goals of the RFC is to determine those missing features. We're tracking them at http://fab.wmflabs.org/T43
[19:10:22] <guillom> (We're using the Phabricator test instance to do the project management on this RFC, in order to become more familiar with it)
[19:11:00] <guillom> So, that's where we are now :)
[19:11:48] <a930913> Do we modify the individual components now, and if so, are there people who can and are willing to modify Phabricator for our needs?
[19:12:14] <guillom> a930913: what do you mean by "modifying the individual components"?
[19:12:32] <WikiPuppies> guillom: I think he means things like skinning, etc.
[19:12:38] <guillom> oh
[19:12:41] <a930913> guillom: Adding features/hacks etc.
[19:12:42] <WikiPuppies> Stuff to "Wikimedia-ify" it.
[19:13:24] <bd808> It would be great if most of that work was upstreamed from the start to make our upgrade paths easier.
[19:13:35] <WikiPuppies> ^ This.
[19:13:41] <guillom> a930913: At the moment, "we" aren't contributing to Phabricator, but it's under very active development, and the developers are very responsive to feature requests and bug reports
[19:13:42] -*- milimetric just lurking because I have a conflict - but just wanted to point out that the Analytics team is using Phabricator and we ran into several really annoying bugs that make us want to block the effort of migrating to it at this time. I will list these issues in the process that andre has established (as blockers in the right section)
[19:14:00] <guillom> milimetric: awesome, thank you :)
[19:14:21] <greg-g> I've heard nothing but positive things from people at other companies who have worked with upstream phab to incorporate their use cases (especially when there is a dev there to do it, upstream is great at reviewing patches, apparently)
[19:14:24] <guillom> a930913: Also, Phabricator is written in PHP, so MediaWiki developers won't have too much trouble contributing
[19:14:46] <Yaron> guillom: can one currently see the MediaWiki code in the WMF Phabricator instance?
[19:14:57] <bawolff> That sounds like famous last words :)
[19:15:08] <guillom> bawolff: I don't code so I can say it ;)
[19:15:08] -*- bd808 interviewed a Release Engineer candidate yesterday with Phabricator development/maintenance experience
[19:15:16] <guillom> Yaron: Some repositories, I think. Let me check
[19:15:46] <bd808> Currently synced repos are listed at http://fab.wmflabs.org/diffusion/
[19:15:50] <guillom> Yaron: http://fab.wmflabs.org/repository/ lists the current repositories
[19:16:02] <guillom> or what bd808 says, too
[19:16:17] <guillom> bd808: Oh? Interesting
[19:16:22] <guillom> (re: release engineer)
[19:16:44] <bd808> Yet another deviantART alumnus
[19:17:03] <bd808> (YADA in the future) :)
[19:17:29] <Yaron> The "/diffusion" URL isn't showing anything for me.
[19:17:40] <Yaron> I guess you need to create an account in order to see any of the code...
[19:17:48] <Yaron> ....which is strange, no?
[19:17:54] <guillom> Yaron: try my link?
[19:17:56] <WikiPuppies> guillom: The really important question is migration. If we can't move existing data in from Bugzilla, etc., that would be an instant show-stopper.
[19:18:13] <mutante|away> i also have a conflict but lurking. i want to add we need an import script to import existing bugs from different systems
[19:18:13] <Yaron> guillom: yes, I tried it - it brings up a login screen.
[19:18:46] <apergos> plus all the code review history from gerrit in some way that makes sense
[19:18:51] <guillom> WikiPuppies: Agreed. There have been instances of migration but not well documented. The RFC aims partly at evaluating if the migration is possible
[19:18:57] <wctaiwan> [13:16:01]<guillom> Yaron: http://fab.wmflabs.org/repository/ lists the current repositories <- that 403s for me
[19:19:00] <wctaiwan> and I'm logged in.
[19:19:12] <guillom> wctaiwan: huh, maybe it's admin-only
[19:19:17] <wctaiwan> diffusion works, though.
[19:19:27] <bawolff> apergos: That doesn't seem critical. we didn't migrate old code review data from gerrit
[19:19:28] <mutante|away> +1, what apergos said, need gerrit history
[19:19:32] <wctaiwan> and yeah, I think being able to read everything while logged out is a requirement.
[19:20:16] <guillom> I agree. I'll try and see if there's a config option somewhere but I can't do that and answer question at the same time :)
[19:20:24] <bd808> Getting gerrit review history imported it likely to be hard. Bugzilla/RT content should be easier.
[19:20:24] <guillom> questions*
[19:20:45] <apergos> we still have old code review around. but having to hunt through two old systems to look at what people said about a commit is pushing the limit
[19:20:53] <WikiPuppies> ^
[19:21:03] <WikiPuppies> If we can move the data in, then by all means we should.
[19:21:14] <guillom> FYI We're trackin the migration effort at http://fab.wmflabs.org/T37
[19:21:17] <guillom> (and subtasks)
[19:21:43] <bawolff> Its not that hard to hunt through old code if you import git notes so it links to old commit
[19:21:57] <bd808> Phabricator's own repository is available without authentication (https://secure.phabricator.com/diffusion/P/) so we just need to find the right settings to change.
[19:22:40] <guillom> wctaiwan: Yaron, can you check http://fab.wmflabs.org/diffusion/MW/ again? I think I found the option to show the repository to "Everyone" (i.e. not just "All Phabricator users")
[19:22:55] <apergos> I assume that one can limit access to certain projects (think: security issues) to a group of users?
[19:22:57] <wctaiwan> yep, that works.
[19:23:02] <guillom> apergos: yes
[19:23:06] <Yaron> I see stuff!
[19:23:35] <guillom> apergos: We still need to check the granularity, and if all components we need support it, but generally, yes
[19:23:45] <apergos> and last question from me for now, since the ops rt system isn't part of the development chain, is it expected that ops would have to move off of that?
[19:24:18] <guillom> apergos: If we can safely migrate the data, and if Ops' workflow can be accommodated in Phabricator, then yes, Ops would be encouraged to move as well
[19:25:58] <mutante|away> guillom, apergos the RT groups and permissions are documented on wikitech. https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/RT#Which_groups_do_we_have.3F
[19:26:10] <mutante|away> i'm _not_ saying we need to copy it exactly.. just something sane
[19:26:21] <mutante|away> and as long as we can import the old tikcets
[19:26:45] <apergos> well I would add that I want search capability to be at least not worse than rt
[19:26:46] <apergos> :-D
[19:26:52] <guillom> Thanks, mutante|away ; I'll add that to the ticket http://fab.wmflabs.org/T63
[19:26:53] <apergos> (it's a low bar)
[19:26:54] <wctaiwan> is the reason differential is empty that there is no code review happening on phabricator? Or is there simply no view like status:open in gerrit?
[19:27:07] <mutante|away> https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/RT#core-ops
[19:27:54] <guillom> wctaiwan: You can try and see if what you're looking for in Phabricator's own phabricator, since they're using it actively: https://secure.phabricator.com
[19:27:57] <bawolff> huh, phabricator has a wiki too. We could replace wikipedia well we're at it :)
[19:28:08] <guillom> heh
[19:28:31] <apergos> what's the db backend anyways?
[19:28:42] <guillom> uugggh
[19:28:47] <guillom> Tricky
[19:28:53] <guillom> No idea :)
[19:29:12] <Nikerabbit> how does phrabricator handle code review?
[19:29:15] <wctaiwan> guillom: yep, it is, thanks.
[19:29:51] <guillom> Nikerabbit: Can you be more specific?
[19:30:01] <guillom> Nikerabbit: I think there's both pre-commit and post-commit review
[19:30:07] <guillom> But I'm no expert
[19:30:24] <Nikerabbit> guillom: for gerrit we need this git-review command or similar tricks
[19:30:29] <bd808> Nikerabbit: Lots to read at https://secure.phabricator.com/book/phabricator/article/differential/
[19:30:43] <guillom> Nikerabbit: Ah. From what I've read, it's easier. There's a command line too.
[19:31:05] <Nikerabbit> that could be a big selling point for phabricator, some extensions already run away to github
[19:31:20] <bd808> Arcanist (https://secure.phabricator.com/book/phabricator/article/arcanist/) is the cli
[19:31:20] <apergos> I hope we can use regular git, (I do not use git-review)
[19:31:54] <guillom> The command line tool is called Arcanist, if you want more info
[19:32:19] <guillom> https://secure.phabricator.com/book/phabricator/article/arcanist_quick_start/
[19:32:37] <mutante|away> apergos: it looks like one can use mariadb :)
[19:32:37] <wctaiwan> Nikerabbit: https://sites.google.com/a/khanacademy.org/forge/for-developers/code-review-policy/using-phabricator#TOC-Day-to-day-use
[19:32:43] <mutante|away> http://therning.org/magnus/archives/1135
[19:32:55] <wctaiwan> assuming the workflow isn't specific to Khan Academy
[19:32:55] <apergos> that will be convenient
[19:32:59] <mutante|away> indeed
[19:33:14] <bawolff> Oh look it has a make "meme" buttong... what
[19:33:16] <mutante|away> guillom: love to see we can have mariadb backend
[19:33:49] <guillom> bawolff: Yes, there's a meme generator included :)
[19:34:04] <bawolff> I'm torn between that being horrible and being awesome
[19:34:09] <WikiPuppies> guillom: This is a rather...unusual system!
[19:34:10] <mutante|away> haha, same
[19:34:20] <guillom> mutante|away: Glad to hear that, since Ops would probably inherit some of the maintenance (I say *SOME* ;)
[19:34:29] <wctaiwan> oh look, it looks like phabricator is okay with multiple commits per patch. I'm sold. :P
[19:34:34] <guillom> bawolff: There's also a "Serious" mode, and another one less formal
[19:34:44] <wctaiwan> mediawiki is srsbsns.
[19:34:44] <mutante|away> we'd have to puppetize it i suppose
[19:35:39] <Vulpix> meme generator? good, we could then transfer bugzilla quips to memes :P
[19:35:48] <WikiPuppies> :)
[19:36:04] <guillom> So, just to come back to the RFC a bit: It's not just about voting for or against Phabricator, but we really need people who would use it (developers, ops engineers, product managers, bug reporters, etc.) to test it and see if it meets their needs and can accommodate their workflows
[19:36:08] <bawolff> Hmm, to upload files I have to drag-n-drop... :s
[19:36:23] <guillom> Because andre and I can't check every single feature by ourselves :)
[19:36:23] <WikiPuppies> guillom: Is the RFC going out to the local communities for approval?
[19:36:56] <WikiPuppies> guillom: I know there are folks on en.wp who simmer when stuff like this goes through without the local communities having a say.
[19:37:07] -*- bawolff doesn't think it should
[19:37:17] <bawolff> if enwiki doesn't like it, they don't have to use it :P
[19:37:23] <guillom> WikiPuppies: We're advertising it through messaging, etc. It's not about getting 100% approval from every single wiki communities, but about getting input from people who would use it (i.e. mostly people who use bugzilla)
[19:37:23] <wctaiwan> https://secure.phabricator.com/book/phabricator/article/arcanist_diff/#git is probably an authoritative guide for the code review workflow
[19:37:42] <WikiPuppies> bawolff: https://xkcd.com/927/
[19:37:46] <wctaiwan> why would enwiki care about the dev workflow?
[19:37:55] <mutante|away> as long as we have bugs it's not so nice to say "you dont have to use the bugtracker" though
[19:37:59] <guillom> WikiPuppies: One big selling point for communities is the fact that we might (emphasis on might) be able to log into Phabricator using SUL
[19:38:07] <WikiPuppies> wctaiwan: Because we like sticking our noses in anything that affects how we do our work.
[19:38:09] <Ironholds> oh, that would be glorious
[19:38:11] <mutante|away> wctaiwan: it's also the bugtracker
[19:38:19] <WikiPuppies> guillom: Now THAT would be useful.
[19:38:23] <Ironholds> having to juggle gerrit and bugzilla and wikipedia discrete logins is a tremendous pain in the bum.
[19:38:27] <bawolff> yeah, that'd be nice
[19:38:30] <wctaiwan> hey Ironholds :)
[19:38:31] <Ironholds> SUL would make it...well, MORE accessible to editors.
[19:38:33] <Ironholds> hey wctaiwan :)
[19:38:38] <WikiPuppies> Ohai, Ironholds.
[19:38:58] <bawolff> Ironholds: Agreed. Yesterday I was logged out of gerrit and it took me 15 minutes to remember it had a different password then my wiki one
[19:38:59] <wctaiwan> WikiPuppies: I don't see... blah. People who can stand Bugzilla would probably be fine with Phabricator. I hope.
[19:38:59] <mutante|away> is this going to replace OTRS? /me hides
[19:39:05] <guillom> WikiPuppies: Also, many Wikimedians don't want to use bugzilla because it displays email addresses, etc. That wouldn't be the case in Phabricator (although it'll be fixed in a future version of bugzilla as well)
[19:39:06] <wctaiwan> people who don't will just keep using VPT anyway.
[19:39:17] <guillom> mutante|away: ...probably not :)
[19:40:15] <guillom> WikiPuppies: I think of Phabricator as an improvement for the average Wikimedian (which I can relate to, not being a developer). They won't have to look into 10 different places to learn about an upcoming feature, or a bug etc.
[19:40:36] <mutante|away> bawolff: and gerrit is already hooked to LDAP and the same as labs, imagine without that:)
[19:40:36] <WikiPuppies> guillom: The main concern for me with Phabricator is the real name field. I know most (99%) developers use their real name, but I'm in the 1%. Can it be made optional?
[19:41:20] <-> TrevorParscal s'appelle maintenant TrevorP|Away
[19:41:22] <WikiPuppies> wctaiwan: guillom just explained where I'm coming from. The stuff that affects an average Wikimedian (UI changes, new features, etc.) usually passes through Bugzilla at some important stage.
[19:41:24] <-> TrevorP|Away s'appelle maintenant TrevorParscal
[19:41:25] <guillom> WikiPuppies: Phabricator supports many login mechanisms that can be used at the same time (Google account, local account, LDAP etc.) so I'm pretty sure that would be optional
[19:41:26] <bawolff> mutante|away: Yes, that would be useful if the last time I used my labs password for anything other than gerrit was too create my labs account :P
[19:42:02] <WikiPuppies> guillom: OK. When I went to create an account on the test setup it listed the real name field as required. I just put in my username for now.
[19:42:05] <bd808> mutante|away: It looks to me like MariaDB should work for the backend. The codebase seems to expect mysql for everything -- https://github.com/facebook/phabricator/blob/master/resources/sql/quickstart.sql
[19:42:36] <mutante|away> bd808: yes, i saw this one http://therning.org/magnus/archives/1135
[19:42:42] <guillom> WikiPuppies: Yeah, sorry. We're not yet terribly familiar with all the config options, so we need to go back and tweak them often
[19:42:44] <bawolff> WikiPuppies: Well yes certainly, but I would argue wikimedians are a secondary audience here. The primary audience of a bug tracking/code review tools is the people fixing the bugs
[19:42:54] <mutante|away> bawolff: fair, depends which tools you use though
[19:43:01] <wctaiwan> WikiPuppies: sure. But I think if someone already uses bugzilla, they'd be okay with phabricator (the UI is... fairly similar, really. Fewer fields.) If they don't, it's not going to affect them. I don't perceive this as like, Typography Refresh :P
[19:43:07] <WikiPuppies> bawolff: True, but we're the ones who prod said people into fixing said bugs. :)
[19:43:39] <WikiPuppies> wctaiwan: Well, some people hate change. Those people will find whatever reason they can to oppose it.
[19:43:52] <bawolff> Well change generally has a cost
[19:43:53] <WikiPuppies> wctaiwan: RFA reform on en.wp is *the* quintessential example.
[19:44:19] <WikiPuppies> guillom: It's not a problem. That's what testing is for. :P
[19:44:20] <mutante|away> maybe we can lure people in with "classic typography" as a feature
[19:44:27] <apergos> ha
[19:44:31] <wctaiwan> okay, I'm not worried, but we'll find out who's right if / when we try to make the move.
[19:44:36] <bawolff> mutante|away: I like it
[19:44:51] <guillom> WikiPuppies: I understand. Honestly, I think this change would be much less disruptive for editors than for developers / project managers / bug triagers, etc. So we're really interested in feedback from everyone, but if we can get agreement from developers we'll probably go with it
[19:44:58] -*- WikiPuppies hands mutante|away a star.
[19:45:14] -*- bawolff coughs bug 63776
[19:45:43] <apergos> developers plus ops please
[19:45:46] <Revi> Hmm, (I'm no tech guy) I want to know what's the pros and cons between current Bugzilla/gerrit. (other than we can manage them at centralized place...)
[19:45:57] <WikiPuppies> guillom: I agree. I myself rarely visit Bugzilla unless I hear of a bug related to my work, actually.
[19:45:58] <guillom> apergos: yes, you know I meant that :)
[19:46:01] <mutante|away> bawolff: wa :)
[19:46:17] <apergos> just making suuuuure :-)
[19:46:22] <bawolff> Are we not calling "ops", "developers" anymore. I thought everyone was a developer! :)
[19:46:22] <wctaiwan> Revi: Gerrit's code review process is a pain (from the POV of someone who has only recently started doing MW work)
[19:46:36] <apergos> I am a developer but no not all ops are developers
[19:46:39] <mutante|away> bawolff: in Bugzilla we are all "shell"
[19:46:43] <bawolff> wctaiwan: And I assure you, that doesn't change with time
[19:46:47] <wctaiwan> the main annoyance for me is that you're forced to stick to one commit for the same change.
[19:46:50] <wctaiwan> haha
[19:47:02] <WikiPuppies> bawolff: Everyone is, really. Most of us develop the content. ;)
[19:47:02] <wctaiwan> and the web interface is just crummy in general.
[19:47:46] <guillom> Revi: At the moment, bugzilla/gerrit and Phabricator look like they're mostly equivalent in terms of features (we're looking to see if there are critical features missing). So all things being equal, the main advantage of Phabricator is that everything would be in one place: bugs, code, mockups, agile project management, etc.
[19:48:03] <Ironholds> wctaiwan: what bit about the hinky, pseudo-natural-language search, the commit limitations, the revocations of reviews after an amendment is made to a commit, the horrifying UI and the constant bombardment of emails annoys you?
[19:48:06] <wctaiwan> guillom: is it too early to talk about UI changes we might want to make?
[19:48:08] <WikiPuppies> guillom: Don't forget the meme generator. :P
[19:48:25] <Revi> Umm, ok. Goodnight.
[19:48:28] <wctaiwan> Ironholds: hahaha. But I think they're changing the revocations of reviews.
[19:48:29] <bawolff> The main thing I'd worry about is if the querying features for phab not being up to bugzilla standards
[19:48:31] <WikiPuppies> wctaiwan: UI changes would most likely amount to slapping a "Phab-ized" Vector on the interface.
[19:48:32] <Revi> (I realized it is almost 3 AM)
[19:48:36] <bawolff> bugzilla has really powerful querying features
[19:48:37] <guillom> wctaiwan: Nope; just create tickets in the test phabricator, so we can upstream the requests
[19:48:48] <WikiPuppies> Revi: Night.
[19:49:19] <guillom> WikiPuppies: Ragesoss has been adding Jimmy banners in his comments in the test phabricator using the meme generator :)
[19:49:34] <-> Krinkle s'appelle maintenant Krinkle|detached
[19:49:41] <wctaiwan> hmm. I'll just throw it out here first--I think there should be an option for tabbed interface for code review where comments go in one tab and diffs in another, and also the ability to collapse all changes by default. Right now it's a lot of scrolling on small screens.
[19:49:43] <WikiPuppies> guillom: I now recall why I love testing sites. :)
[19:50:06] <bawolff> Have we looked into anti-vandalism situation on phabricator?
[19:50:16] <bawolff> Will it get rid of the need for separate editbugs rights?
[19:50:24] <guillom> bawolff: Could you perhaps make a list of those requests, so we can see if they're possible in Phabricator?
[19:50:32] <bawolff> ok
[19:50:36] <-> halAFK s'appelle maintenant halfak
[19:50:42] <guillom> hmm, I haven't looked into anti-vandalism tbh
[19:51:06] <bawolff> guillom: Anywhere in particular I should make such a list?
[19:51:18] <apergos> that would be a good one, we had that issue with bz (vandalism)
[19:51:30] <WikiPuppies> guillom: In this case, testing means "do whatever you want as long as you don't blow up the servers", right?
[19:51:31] <guillom> bawolff: http://fab.wmflabs.org/T46 or a subtask of it
[19:51:43] <guillom> WikiPuppies: absolutely
[19:51:50] -*- WikiPuppies adds a new task.
[19:52:19] <bawolff> Its ok to add things to that if they're "I have no idea if its missing" rather then it is definitey missing?
[19:52:29] <guillom> bawolff: yep
[19:52:44] <mutante|away> re: "constant bombardment of emails" , i don't see how that changes with a different system, we're all gonna get a bunch on that one now
[19:52:55] <guillom> Looking at user management, I don't see an option to block someone at the moment
[19:53:02] <mutante|away> if we do a lot of reviews and want mail to tell us about it, it will be identical
[19:53:13] <guillom> Yeah, you can change your email preferences
[19:53:51] <WikiPuppies> guillom: Is there a digest option?
[19:54:07] <guillom> WikiPuppies: one sec
[19:54:20] <WikiPuppies> OK.
[19:54:37] <guillom> So, amending what I said earlier: Admins can edit user roles, including disabling them (for anti-vandalism)
[19:54:46] <wctaiwan> or just make jenkins not send emails.
[19:56:12] <guillom> WikiPuppies: no digest, but you can specify what to get email for. It's pretty granular, see http://fab.wmflabs.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/ if you have an account
[19:56:13] <WikiPuppies> LilleRijsel: Quick burst of off-topic rambling...what does your bot do, anyway?
[19:56:52] <wctaiwan> spam :P
[19:56:55] <guillom> Alright, a few minutes left officially. I can stay a bit longer if needed. Does anyone have more questions?
[19:57:27] <WikiPuppies> guillom: That's a shame...I don't want my inbox to be sky-high with emails for bugs I have no interest in.
[19:57:58] <guillom> WikiPuppies: If you're not interested in a bug, you just don't subscribe to it :)
[19:58:21] <guillom> By default, you get no email, unless you report a bug or subscribe to an existing one, I think
[19:58:29] <WikiPuppies> Ah.
[19:59:00] <bawolff> guillom: I'll be honest, I went into this pretty opposed to phabricator, but I'm actually coming around slightly
[19:59:45] <guillom> bawolff: Well, honestly, my goal isn't to sell Phabricator, it's to make sure we learn about it in order to make an informed decision about it :)
[20:00:07] <guillom> It would help no one to push for something that doesn't fit our needs
[20:01:18] <guillom> Alright, so, closing thoughts: Please all continue to test Phabricator, and add comments at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Phabricator . If you see missing features or blocker bugs, please record them in our test instance so we can upstream them :)
[20:01:32] <bawolff> So slightly off topic question: Some teams use mingle for project planning, some teams use trello, etc. As far as I can tell, the mediawiki-core team (ie the one's working on mediawiki/core, not the features team) seem to use neither, but yet still get stuff done. How do they do project management?
[20:01:47] <guillom> bawolff: Bugzilla-only, AFAIK
[20:02:32] <guillom> It largely depends on the engineers and the project/product manager(s)
[20:02:39] <LilleRijsel> WikiPuppies: My bot can see IPs, ping users, and numberous commands
[20:02:50] <LilleRijsel> but is in test
[20:02:59] <WikiPuppies> LilleRijsel: Interesting...
[20:03:03] <LilleRijsel> sorry to the off-topic
[20:03:25] <guillom> Alright. Thank you all for coming, and asking questions, and helping me answer them :) The next IRC session will be next week: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Phabricator+RFC%C2%A0discussion&iso=20140422T0330&p1=1440&ah=1
[20:03:27] <bawolff> So why do we even need these mingle/trello things
[20:04:06] <LilleRijsel> +dequiet #wikimedia-social
[20:04:06] <WikiPuppies> guillom: That time's pretty late for me, but I'll try to show up. :)
[20:04:08] <guillom> bawolff: Because for some people, bugzilla isn't enough. People have their workflows/processes, some need to plan biweekly sprints, have Agile cards, backlogs, etc.
[20:05:10] <guillom> WikiPuppies: We're doing IRC sessions at different times so people from different timezones can join.
[20:05:19] <WikiPuppies> guillom: Ah, OK.
[20:05:29] <guillom> So if you could attend today's, it's normal if the next one isn't too practical. I'll be in bed too :)
[20:05:37] <WikiPuppies> guillom: Good thing I'm relatively flexible. I can come to most, if not all of them. :D
[20:05:45] <guillom> okay :)
[20:06:09] <guillom> Alright, I'm going to sign off for the evening. Thanks again, everyone, and see you around the Interwebs :)