IRC office hours/Office hours 2014-05-19
[17:00:15] <Scott_WUaS> Good morning (PDT :)
[17:00:31] <GerardM-> good evening
[17:00:33] <JohnLewis> Lydia_WMDE: Ready? :)
[17:00:33] <Lydia_WMDE> hello people :)
[17:00:38] <Lydia_WMDE> ready!
[17:00:46] <Lydia_WMDE> how is everyone doing?
[17:01:02] <JohnLewis> Good :p
[17:01:22] <JohnLewis> Lydia_WMDE: Taking an update then questions?
[17:01:27] <Lydia_WMDE> who's here for the office hour?
[17:01:29] <Lydia_WMDE> yeah
[17:01:33] <Pyb> hi
[17:01:35] <JohnLewis> Right.
[17:01:38] <Micru> hi!
[17:01:45] <JakobVoss> hi
[17:01:48] <Nouill> hi
[17:01:49] <Lydia_WMDE> yay full house today
[17:01:51] <Lydia_WMDE> awesome
[17:02:03] <Coyau> hi
[17:02:15] <Lydia_WMDE> then i'll start with a quick update on the current state of wikidata
[17:02:19] <Lydia_WMDE> and then answer questions
[17:02:32] <Lydia_WMDE> JohnLewis will be helping
[17:02:32] <Lydia_WMDE> :)
[17:02:48] <Lydia_WMDE> so i am very happy with how things are going around Wikidata
[17:02:53] <JohnLewis> I will indeed :p
[17:03:01] <Lydia_WMDE> we're currently at an all-time high of active editors
[17:03:12] <Lydia_WMDE> over 13000 with at least one edit over the last 30 days
[17:03:16] <Lydia_WMDE> this is pretty awesome
[17:03:49] <Lydia_WMDE> i am also seeing movement in wikipedia templates being adapted to include wikidata data more (optionally)
[17:03:53] <GerardM-> ..
[17:03:59] <Lydia_WMDE> this one needs expanding: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11985372 :)
[17:04:21] <Lydia_WMDE> nontheless i think it is not enough yet
[17:04:40] <Lydia_WMDE> but we're getting there
[17:04:53] <Lydia_WMDE> and if we continue working on sources then this should increase even more
[17:04:59] <JakobVoss> do you measure edits by magnus or other tools? I'd guess they make an increase in edits.
[17:05:12] <Lydia_WMDE> JakobVoss: they count as one editor
[17:05:17] <JohnLewis> Hey Thiemo_WMDE
[17:05:23] <Thiemo_WMDE> hey.
[17:05:29] <Lydia_WMDE> and yes they do increase edit count quite a lot
[17:05:34] <Lydia_WMDE> which is why i didn't mention it
[17:05:37] <Lydia_WMDE> it'd be a bit misleading
[17:05:45] <GerardM-> how ?
[17:05:47] <Lydia_WMDE> anyway
[17:05:58] <GerardM-> one editor is one editor .. ?
[17:06:07] <Lydia_WMDE> right
[17:06:15] <Lydia_WMDE> but they don't all make the same number of edits
[17:06:27] <Micru> well.... there are 3 categories, manual editing, bots, and semi-automated editing
[17:06:42] <Lydia_WMDE> right
[17:06:46] <Lydia_WMDE> and they're all fine
[17:06:53] <Micru> sure
[17:06:56] <Lydia_WMDE> :)
[17:07:20] <Lydia_WMDE> so we also have a bunch of new features in the pipeline that will get ready over the next weeks/months
[17:07:52] <Lydia_WMDE> for one Bene* started working again on support for badges like good and featured article
[17:08:15] <Lydia_WMDE> Tpt worked on inter-project links in the sidebar of for example Wikisource
[17:08:38] <Lydia_WMDE> he is currently turning it into a beta feature so anyone can turn it on on any wikimedia project that has wikidata support already
[17:08:58] <JohnLewis> On a note; That feature is deployed on a few wiki now and can easily be enabled on any Phase 1 wiki via consensus and Bugzilla :)
[17:09:15] <Lydia_WMDE> right
[17:09:55] <Lydia_WMDE> we've also made good progress on simple queries. still some things left to fix and then it has to go through extensive code review at the foundation before we can deploy it
[17:10:10] <Lydia_WMDE> since it has a lot of performance implications potentially and we don't want to mess that up
[17:10:39] <Lydia_WMDE> next is the entity suggester that a team of students is working on.
[17:10:50] <Lydia_WMDE> this is currently in the last stages of review
[17:11:07] <Lydia_WMDE> once it is deployed it will suggest you what kind of properties are missing on an item
[17:11:27] <Lydia_WMDE> next one is the redesign of the user interface
[17:11:44] <Lydia_WMDE> we're working on the first rough mockups. there is unfortunately nothing to show yet
[17:12:19] <Revi> Is there any docs about Tpt's inter-project links? :p
[17:12:24] <Lydia_WMDE> we're also making progress on the mono-lingual text datatype which some people have been asking for. it'll be used for things like the motto of a country
[17:12:48] <Lydia_WMDE> Revi: yes. i can look up a link for you if you ping me during the Q&A
[17:13:05] <Revi> Ok
[17:13:05] <Tpt_> Revi: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikibase/Beta_Features/Other_projects_sidebar
[17:13:12] <Revi> thanks Tpt_
[17:13:31] <Lydia_WMDE> statements on properties still need some love but are also making good progress
[17:14:00] <Lydia_WMDE> and we're currently planning to enable data access for Wikiquote on June 10th.
[17:14:45] <Lydia_WMDE> and i hope in the next sprint we can start making progress towards Commons support. the first step will be usage tracking. that means you'll be able to see where data is used in articles
[17:14:58] <Lydia_WMDE> alright. that was a lot of typing from me :D
[17:15:02] <Lydia_WMDE> time for questions
[17:15:11] <Lydia_WMDE> JohnLewis will try to keep track of them for me
[17:15:14] <JohnLewis> Lydia_WMDE: <dennny> given that Pavel, who was very supportive of wikidata, has to leave, what effect if expected from the change of leadership at wmde for the Wikidata development work?
[17:15:31] <JohnLewis> 'try' k :p
[17:15:46] <Lydia_WMDE> alright
[17:16:01] <Lydia_WMDE> so it was announced today that the executive director of Wikimedia Germany will leave
[17:16:19] <GerardM-> Markus Krotch works on a Java environment with the Wikidata data included... does it make sense to have an instance in labs ?
[17:16:42] <Lydia_WMDE> i do not expect Wikidata to be affected in a negative way by this
[17:17:13] <Lydia_WMDE> and if so i and my team will do everything we can to make sure development continues just fine
[17:17:19] <Thiemo_WMDE> GerardM-: It's a library. It's focused on parsing JSON blobs at the moment. It runs locally and doesn't need a server, at the moment.
[17:17:45] <matanya> will there be a way for changes in data afeection templates pulling from wikidata to show in recent changes ?
[17:17:46] <Lydia_WMDE> so i am not worried in this regard. we will make sure Wikidata and the development around it are fine
[17:18:03] <GerardM-> ... Thiemo_WMDE it would be a place where people can familiarise themselves with it
[17:18:37] <JohnLewis> Lydia_WMDE: If you're done with that; <matanya> will there be a way for changes in data afeection templates pulling from wikidata to show in recent changes ?
[17:18:40] <Thiemo_WMDE> GerardM-: Again, it's a Java library. Download it, look at it. I'm not sure how hosting it at labs would help.
[17:19:04] <GerardM-> ... yes it is a java library.. it is also all the data of Wikidata
[17:19:28] <Thiemo_WMDE> I think you are confusing this a bit.
[17:19:32] <GerardM-> unconfuse me :)
[17:19:45] <Thiemo_WMDE> It can parse the dumps. Downloading the dump is not part of the lib.
[17:20:25] <GerardM-> ... what I want is an instance on labs WITH the dump included so that people can just use it.. see what it is like and then decide to invest in a full environment
[17:21:04] <GerardM-> similar to WDQ, it is there to be used
[17:21:23] <Thiemo_WMDE> You have access to a full Wikidata database on toollabs. That's even better than the dumps.
[17:21:37] <Scott_WUaS> So much great progress, Lydia_WDME !
[17:21:43] <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: thank you! :)
[17:21:44] <aude> Thiemo_WMDE: not the actual json blobs though
[17:21:47] <GerardM-> right I will ask Markus
[17:21:53] <aude> that requires the dump
[17:21:55] <Lydia_WMDE> GerardM-: that is a good idea
[17:22:02] <GerardM-> thanks Lydia_WMDE
[17:22:03] <Lydia_WMDE> he will be able to say more
[17:22:11] <Lydia_WMDE> ok on to matanya's question
[17:22:18] <JohnLewis> Lydia_WMDE: resend :); <matanya> will there be a way for changes in data afeection templates pulling from wikidata to show in recent changes ?
[17:22:27] <JohnLewis> (for reference that is)
[17:22:36] <Lydia_WMDE> so wikidata changes already do show up in recent changes
[17:22:45] <Thiemo_WMDE> Sure, the blobs are similar to having access to the full Wikipedia wikitext. That's out of the focus of toollabs.
[17:23:17] <Lydia_WMDE> it does not yet work with enhanced recent changes
[17:23:20] <Lydia_WMDE> we are working on that
[17:23:28] <Lydia_WMDE> unfortunately fixing this is not trivial :(
[17:23:46] <Lydia_WMDE> parts of the work have been done but there is still more to d until it really works
[17:24:10] <Lydia_WMDE> matanya: does that answer your question?
[17:24:43] <aude> i'm not sure how usage tracking will work with templates
[17:24:51] <Lydia_WMDE> ah
[17:24:54] <Lydia_WMDE> yeah
[17:25:08] <Lydia_WMDE> we'll have to figure that out
[17:25:12] <aude> yes, need to figure out those details
[17:25:18] <Lydia_WMDE> at the beginning usage tracking will probably report a bit more usage than is actually happening
[17:25:25] <aude> if we can track the usage, then reporting in recent changes should be possible ( i think)
[17:25:26] <Lydia_WMDE> and we'll tweak later
[17:25:35] <Lydia_WMDE> *nod*
[17:26:00] <Lydia_WMDE> ok
[17:26:03] <Lydia_WMDE> next question?
[17:26:10] <matanya> thanks Lydia_WMDE
[17:26:14] <Lydia_WMDE> :)
[17:27:40] <GerardM-> do we track usage of Wikidata as it is ?
[17:27:48] <Scott_WUaS> Many thanks member:Lydia_WMDE ... what's the link for a 2 or 5 year plan, or similar, please?
[17:28:28] <JohnLewis> Scott_WUaS: There is a development plan at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan
[17:28:28] <Lydia_WMDE> GerardM-: we don't beyond the link i posted earlier. it's technically not trivial at the moment. i hope we can do much better with usage tracking
[17:28:52] <Scott_WUaS> Thanks, JohnLewis
[17:29:00] <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: what JohnLewis posted. there is no plan beyond that plus a rough plan for wiktionary
[17:29:21] <Lydia_WMDE> no plan that is thought out in detail and written down
[17:29:59] <Lydia_WMDE> so much to do still wiht the plans we already have thought through and written down :)
[17:30:08] <Scott_WUaS> :)
[17:30:48] <JohnLewis> Lydia_WMDE: On that note; any updates with mono-lingual ior quantity + units datatypes or any more on the stove?
[17:30:53] <Lydia_WMDE> mono-lingual is being worked on right now
[17:31:02] <Lydia_WMDE> quantities with units not yet
[17:31:11] <Lydia_WMDE> i am hoping to find a student or two to work on that
[17:31:17] <Lydia_WMDE> if anyone is interested please let me know
[17:31:38] <JohnLewis> Lydia_WMDE: and as you told me a few days ago, how are units planning to be managed in the datatype?
[17:31:44] <Lydia_WMDE> in general if you're looking for university projects: there are a few cool ones around wikidata - not just for computer science students
[17:32:22] <Lydia_WMDE> ok how are units going to be managed:
[17:32:33] <Lydia_WMDE> this is my current understanding and it might change!
[17:33:30] <Lydia_WMDE> we use gnuunits to generate a list of units and conversions between them ( we really don't want to do this ourselves - units are messed up...)
[17:33:54] <Lydia_WMDE> these can then be used in wikidata with the quantities datatype
[17:34:05] <Lydia_WMDE> including conversion
[17:35:10] <JohnLewis> Lydia_WMDE: Will the community have any/an active say in what units are allowed + adding additional ones?
[17:35:26] <Lydia_WMDE> ah good question
[17:35:49] <Lydia_WMDE> so my thinking is that we will initially only allow a small subset of what gnuunits offers (it offers _a lot_)
[17:36:05] <Lydia_WMDE> and then whitelist more as requested and needed by the community
[17:36:54] <Lydia_WMDE> as for additional ones: if it is not in gnuunits it is probably really obscure. my thinking is that this should be added to gnuunits in this case and then be used in wikidata if we really want such obscure units.
[17:37:23] * aude really doesn't want ;)�
[17:37:31] <Lydia_WMDE> hehe
[17:37:32] <aude> if it's like complexity of dates
[17:37:40] <Lydia_WMDE> yes!
[17:38:18] <Lydia_WMDE> we have about 20 minutes left
[17:38:29] <Lydia_WMDE> more questions?
[17:38:29] <aude> http://www.gnu.org/software/units/manual/units.html for reference
[17:38:40] <Lydia_WMDE> thanks aude!
[17:39:17] <JakobVoss> can you give some rough time for the new user interface (x month, this year, next year...)?
[17:39:35] <GerardM-> would it make sense for GLAMS for to save the data they use for Commons uploads so that we can upload their uncluttered data ?
[17:40:49] <Scott_WUaS> Lydia_WMDE: Can you outline in broad strokes the potential for translation coded into Wikidata, perhaps via a synchronization tool you asked for in email a few days ago or in other ways (and perhaps differentially from Google Translate)? Eventually, will individual words in one language in Wikidata (so item by item? ... e.g. what's a basic unit in Wikidata ... can a word be a basic unit?) be translatable into all of 7,106 languages, for example
[17:40:49] <Scott_WUaS> with the enormous translation challenges of context, idiomatic usage, etc.)?
[17:40:50] <GerardM-> ... can we store it somewhere ?
[17:41:01] <Lydia_WMDE> JakobVoss: we're currently working on the initial mock-ups. i expect them to go through feedback rounds for the next month. starting to implement after that. how long it will take really depends on the mockups and how invasive the changes have to be to realize it. i can't tell yet. i really hope that we have done a good part of it before the end of the year
[17:41:36] <Lydia_WMDE> GerardM-: yes i think that makes sense. i don't know what the best place would be to store them.
[17:41:52] <GerardM-> Scott_WUaS: in India they will be fiercely opposed to any Google translate related scheme
[17:42:36] <JakobVoss> ok. next question: is there public information about university project ideas or do people have to contact you first?
[17:42:48] <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: we're currently already supporting a lot of languages and i think our challenge for now is bringing them into great shape. after that i'd say we talk about the next challenge and add more :)
[17:43:30] <GerardM-> Scott_WUaS: what we need is language fall back as can be previewed in Reasonator
[17:43:37] <Lydia_WMDE> JakobVoss: it really depends on what the student likes to do and what experience they bring and if they want to work alone or in a group. based on that i'd figure out something nice together with them
[17:44:04] <Scott_WUaS> OK GerardM ... but in what 2 ways, for example, in broad strokes, could someone write an application based on Wikidatas information structures, that would lead to comparative translators? Thanks, Lydia.
[17:44:13] <GerardM-> a label-a-thon will be held in India based on the election results
[17:44:34] <JohnLewis> I thought that was already held?
[17:44:41] <GerardM-> no
[17:44:44] <JakobVoss> I'll tell my students to ask for BA thesis topics ;-)
[17:44:58] <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: i think for that we need Wiktionary support which i hope we'll be looking at in 2015 (but no promises)
[17:45:05] <Lydia_WMDE> JakobVoss: yay :)
[17:45:08] <GerardM-> the results are not out yet for all districts as far as I know
[17:45:11] <Scott_WUaS> Thanks :)
[17:45:39] <Lydia_WMDE> JakobVoss: we had very good experience with group projects. so that'd be cool if you have several students
[17:45:46] <GerardM-> Scott_WUaS: people have used interwiki links for ages to find translations
[17:46:00] <GerardM-> with Wikidata it is much easier to makes something along these lines
[17:46:06] <Lydia_WMDE> that's true
[17:46:16] <Lydia_WMDE> it'll be basic but work for simple things
[17:46:18] <GerardM-> typically a dictionary is about ordinary words but not names
[17:46:28] <GerardM-> this is where Wikidata shines
[17:46:37] <Scott_WUaS> :)
[17:46:51] <GerardM-> (I have several translator friends)
[17:47:13] <GerardM-> they all use it
[17:48:11] <Lydia_WMDE> next question?
[17:49:01] <JakobVoss> are there reqursted features that wom't be implemented on purpose?
[17:49:13] <GerardM-> what is your opinion on items without links ... but items that are well linked to other items or complete a list ?
[17:49:43] <Lydia_WMDE> JakobVoss: of course. wikidata can't be everything for everyone. one of the most important things a project can do is define what it is not
[17:49:57] <Lydia_WMDE> one of those is a request for a tabular datatype
[17:50:22] <JohnLewis> Lydia_WMDE: Any change of heart of Denny's 'no boolean datatype'?
[17:50:25] <Lydia_WMDE> another one is for having constraints hard-coded in the software
[17:50:57] <Lydia_WMDE> JohnLewis: not really. have not heard convincing cases where it is needed since then. (and also no requests)
[17:51:00] <Scott_WUaS> Are there any nascent (just coming into existence) Wikidata interlingual projects, in one way or another, that are engaging MIT OCW's translated courses (or STEM-centric OER courses) now in at least 8 languages (http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/translated-courses/) for translation, data aggregation, etc.? (I ask in the context of developing CC WUaS, which is like CC Wikipedia with CC MIT OCW, and planned inter-lingually for all 7,106 languages).
[17:51:31] <Lydia_WMDE> GerardM-: they are fine imho. wikidata is covering more than wikipedia for example
[17:51:59] <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: i am not aware of any
[17:52:25] <Scott_WUaS> Thanks
[17:53:40] <GerardM-> as you know, any ISO-639-3 language is eligible (in principle) for being an enabled language in Wikidata
[17:54:10] <Scott_WUaS> what is the process for this, in general, GerardM, as well as the timeline?
[17:54:16] <JakobVoss> iso does not cover all languages
[17:54:56] <GerardM-> that is why we have a language committee, it includes people that are allowed to think and make exceptions to the rule
[17:55:05] <Micru> Lydia_WMDE: regarding tabular data, do you think it was well summarized here why WD is not the place for it? >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/How_to_deal_with_open_datasets
[17:55:06] <Scott_WUaS> JakobVoss: and ISO-639-6 may be heading there gradually
[17:55:18] <GerardM-> Scott_WUaS ask on Meta
[17:55:24] <Lydia_WMDE> Micru: i will take a look after the office hour
[17:55:33] <GerardM-> we first want to enable all incubator languages
[17:55:44] <Lydia_WMDE> 5 minutes left - ask remaining questions now before we have to empty the room for the visual editor team :)
[17:56:18] <JakobVoss> thanks Lydia_WMDE
[17:56:20] <GerardM-> technically it can be done
[17:56:35] * James_F waves in preparation for the next Office Hour. :-)�
[17:56:37] <Scott_WUaS> I'll ask you about this in email, GerardM :)
[17:56:46] <Lydia_WMDE> hey James_F :)
[17:57:12] <marktraceur> Hey troublemakers
[17:57:36] <Lydia_WMDE> alright folks. thanks so much everyone for coming and JohnLewis for helping out!
[17:57:39] <GerardM-> <grin> so James_F will the visual editor support Wikidata templates?
[17:58:00] <Scott_WUaS> Thank you, Lydia_WMDE!
[17:58:03] <James_F> GerardM-: If someone makes it work, sure.
[17:58:06] <Lydia_WMDE> feel free to hang out in #wikidata still!
[17:58:21] <JohnLewis> All done? :)
[17:58:26] <Lydia_WMDE> yes!
[17:58:31] <Lydia_WMDE> \o/
[17:58:50] <JohnLewis> James_F: Done it for you :)
[17:58:50] * Keegan moves the chairs around�
[17:58:52] <Maggie_Dennis> Thanks, JohnLewis. :D
[17:59:25] <GerardM-> James_F ... that is not a nice reply
[17:59:51] <GerardM-> i thought templates were to be supported in the VE .. ?
[17:56:35] * James_F waves in preparation for the next Office Hour. :-)
[17:56:46] <Lydia_WMDE> hey James_F :)
[17:57:39] <GerardM-> <grin> so James_F will the visual editor support Wikidata templates?
[17:58:03] <James_F> GerardM-: If someone makes it work, sure.
[17:58:50] * Keegan moves the chairs around
[17:59:25] <GerardM-> James_F ... that is not a nice reply
[17:59:51] <GerardM-> i thought templates were to be supported in the VE .. ?
[18:00:33] <whatami> Hello, everyone, and welcome to the VisualEditor office hour.
[18:00:56] <James_F> First I'll answer GerardM- from the previous Office Hours. :-)
[18:01:33] <James_F> GerardM-: "Wikidata templates" aren't a thing. If you're creating a new type of thing, excellent, but you have a responsibility to make sure they work with other software, not the other way around. :-)
[18:02:37] <Keegan> Unless GerardM meant the item tables, or however they are specifically called
[18:02:43] <GerardM-> .. existing templates can use Lua to retrieve data from Wikdiata
[18:02:56] <James_F> GerardM-: So you just meant "templates"? :-)
[18:02:57] <GerardM-> .. that is existing technology
[18:03:16] <James_F> GerardM-: Templates will continue to work excellently in VisualEditor just like before.
[18:03:30] <GerardM-> ok
[18:03:33] <James_F> GerardM-: Having said that, I'm sure there's a way to make them break in VisualEditor, but let's not go looking for trouble. :-D
[18:03:36] <GerardM-> that is a great answer
[18:04:03] <GerardM-> (it means that it should work and it can be made to work)
[18:04:31] * James_F nods.
[18:04:49] <James_F> I look forward to Wikidata-assisted templates, but I don't believe there's anything special about them from the VisualEditor perspective.
[18:05:19] <whatami> Does anyone else have any questions?
[18:08:02] <matanya> when will VE become available for a non wmf mediawiki release and actully work ?
[18:08:14] <James_F> matanya: Heya.
[18:08:18] <matanya> hi James_F
[18:08:51] <James_F> matanya: When you say "become available", what do you mean? We've had a lot of really great feedback recently from people installing VisualEditor on their own wikis and having difficulties (and successes!) in using it.
[18:09:16] <James_F> matanya: Are there particular issues you have run into (or are away that others have) that you think we've not addressed yet?
[18:10:37] <James_F> matanya: It is our hope (and expectation) that a number of people who have been using the old LTS release of MediaWiki, 1.19, will now be able to use VisualEditor when they upgrade to the new LTS version, 1.23.
[18:11:12] <James_F> matanya: As part of that, we're expecting to back-port functionality (not just security) changes for 1.23.x releases where VisualEditor needs new MediaWiki features.
[18:11:18] <matanya> i use mediawiki at work, and it was hard to setup VE
[18:11:39] * James_F nods.
[18:12:05] <matanya> it kinds of works, but breaks at unexpected egde cases
[18:12:06] <James_F> Certainly, it's harder than other extensions, because it needs Parsoid's service (and extension) to be set up.
[18:12:37] <matanya> and when i add our own custom stuff above it, it is way harder
[18:12:42] <James_F> We're hoping that the 1.23 release will have parallel Debian releases and that we'll be able to point people to things.
[18:12:57] <James_F> s/things/an official WMF-hosted apt repo/g
[18:14:00] <matanya> ok, that is good news. thanks James_F
[18:14:03] <James_F> There's also a lot of issues we've found with people setting up MediaWiki in unsupported ways, like hosting in the root of the web server.
[18:14:20] <matanya> yeah
[18:14:24] <James_F> And VisualEditor makes the lack of support in MediaWiki for these things much more obvious (exposing existing breakage).
[18:14:55] <James_F> Which of course makes it look like VisualEditor broke, whereas actually we're depending on MediaWiki in ways that just don't work in those situations.
[18:14:58] <James_F> (Ah well.)
[18:15:12] <whatami> Who else has a question or feedback for James F about VisualEditor?
[18:15:27] <matanya> James_F: cool, thanks for this info, very valuable
[18:15:52] <James_F> matanya: We should probably document it better, sorry. :-(
[18:16:52] <Scott_WUaS> What's the Visual Editor URL explaining how templates work, if there is one please?
[18:17:53] <James_F> Scott_WUaS: Hey â€“ when you say "how templates work", do you mean how VisualEditor needs templates to be marked up (with TemplateData), the guide for end-users on how to use VisualEditor with templates, or something else?
[18:18:22] <Scott_WUaS> James_F: ... how to use ...
[18:18:51] <James_F> Scott_WUaS: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:VisualEditor/User_guide#Editing_templates should help for that, though of course it could be improved.
[18:18:58] <Scott_WUaS> Thanks :)
[18:19:08] <James_F> Scott_WUaS: If it doesn't cover something in particular, happy to give more advice (or fix it!).
[18:19:21] <Scott_WUaS> sounds good
[18:20:23] <whatami> What other questions do you have about VisualEditor today?
[18:22:01] <whatami> If no one else has a question ready, then I was sent one by a community member earlier today.
[18:23:35] <Stryn> Hi, Is it possible to edit templates using VE in the future and if yes, any timetable yet?
[18:24:23] <James_F> Stryn: Do you mean edit template calls, or editing templates themselves? (I.e., editing Template: pages)?
[18:24:32] <Stryn> the lattert
[18:24:34] <Stryn> latter*
[18:24:42] * James_F nods.
[18:24:52] <James_F> We don't currently have a timeline for that, no.
[18:25:01] <James_F> Right now we're focussed on editing content pages more than anything else.
[18:25:12] <James_F> Template pages often have very odd, or broken, wikitext fragments.
[18:25:28] <James_F> This means that a Template page might not actually "work" as something you can edit.
[18:25:51] <James_F> For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:S-ttl
[18:26:07] <Stryn> Yeah, it's probably not easy to implement.
[18:26:14] <James_F> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:S-ttl&action=edit shows a huge mass of hyper-complex wikitext.
[18:26:28] <James_F> So it'd be really great to let users fiddle with this in VisualEditor.
[18:26:46] <James_F> But the output of the template is effectively "| foo | bar" as wikitext.
[18:27:12] <James_F> And that's not an actual "document" â€“ it only works in the context of knowing that it's a table cell inside a larger table.
[18:27:26] <James_F> For VisualEditor to make it sane to edit that template, you'd need some way of "knowing" how it fits in.
[18:27:44] <James_F> Theoretically we could design and build such a system, but it's not even on our backlog right now, no.
[18:27:55] <Stryn> but something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:The_Beatles would be easier
[18:28:14] <James_F> Yeah. :-)
[18:28:44] <James_F> So maybe we can work out a way to fail gracefully for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:S-ttl whilst letting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:The_Beatles work?
[18:29:18] <Stryn> ehhe, I don't know :P
[18:29:42] <James_F> There's work going on in the wider MediaWiki world to have multiple linked namespaces, so template documentation would be its own place (Template_documentation:The Beatles) which would be VE-able easily.
[18:29:55] <James_F> Something for us to think about, anyway.
[18:30:55] * Risker waves
[18:31:01] <James_F> Hey Risker.
[18:31:34] <Risker> I've been puttering now and then with VE, and am seeing lots of improvements. You're heading in the right direction.
[18:31:46] <James_F> Thanks, Risker.
[18:32:03] <James_F> Risker: Do you have any questions / concerns right now? Happy to answerâ€¦
[18:32:19] <Risker> I wonder, for some of these very complex templates, if perhaps we might just need to get realistic and say "editing this template requires advanced skills"
[18:32:54] <James_F> Risker: You mean, as a template namespace edit notice?
[18:32:58] <James_F> Risker: "Please remember that editing templates can break a lot of pages very quickly."
[18:33:00] <James_F> Or something.
[18:33:27] <Risker> well, even today editing templates is considered pretty much of an advanced skill
[18:33:29] <James_F> (Right now enwiki doesn't have such a message, just per-template notices.)
[18:33:30] <James_F> Yeah.
[18:34:26] <whatami> We're just past the halfway point in the office hour for VisualEditor with James F, the product manager. Â Feel free to ask him any questions or share any feedback you have for him.
[18:34:29] <Risker> I think it might actually be helpful for new editors to know that they're heading into an area where there be dragons
[18:34:54] <James_F> Risker: Sounds sensible.
[18:35:16] <thedj> sounds like something you can teach people in a GettingStarted tutorial....
[18:35:34] <whatami> So here's a question from outside IRC: "Is there a plan to re-launch VisualEditor on the largest Wikipedia project, English Wikipedia, in this fiscal year? If so, what is the launch plan?"
[18:35:38] <James_F> thedj: But maybe it should ship as an MW-default message, like the MediaWiki: namespace one?
[18:35:45] <James_F> whatami: Thanks; good question!
[18:35:55] <James_F> (I'm sure Risker may have some thoughts in particular. :-))
[18:36:00] <thedj> to quote the Google Design presentation I recently shared: "you can teach people a lot of new behavior, just show them how it is done"
[18:36:49] <James_F> Soâ€¦ re-enabling VisualEditor on the English Wikipedia isn't something we particularly want to rush into doing.
[18:37:04] <whatami> (For those not up on the budget calendars, I believe that there are only six or seven weeks left in this fiscal year.)
[18:37:14] <Risker> I think that is wise, James_F.
[18:37:21] <James_F> Rushing anything â€“ in particular, rushing to meet some arbitrary deadline â€“ is a really great way to make things worse, not better.
[18:37:48] <James_F> We spoke about this last Office Hours, but it bears repeating: There is no "official plan" at all with regard to the English Wikipedia.
[18:38:01] <James_F> I'd be interested in thoughts about whether it's something worth pursuing.
[18:38:33] <James_F> I know that a community member started writing an RfC on re-enablement a couple of months ago, but that seemed to be agreed to be premature at the time.
[18:38:39] <thedj> too much 'noise'. only if you NEED the feedback, is what I would say
[18:38:44] <James_F> Maybe that time is now more appropriate? That's obviously a community decision.
[18:38:49] <Risker> I think it might be time to get a Signpost article talking about what has been done in the past year.
[18:39:09] <Risker> and what "significant" things are still to be done
[18:39:33] <Risker> a lot of people have simply forgotten about VE in the last 6-8 months
[18:39:56] * Risker wonders, was there some kind of netsplit?
[18:40:06] <Maggie_Dennis> Risker, i know James F got the boot, but is back. :)
[18:40:20] <Elitre> Do so many people read The Signpost, though? I'm afraid they don't. :/
[18:40:27] <whatami> It looks like a lot of people were dropped and rejoined.
[18:40:44] <Risker> Elitre, a few thousand. If it's the lead headline, it can draw in a lot more.
[18:40:49] <James_F> thedj: We don't enable software just so that the developers get feedback. We enable software so that users can do more things, or more easily, or more quickly. :-)
[18:40:51] <James_F> Risker: Sure; that's certainly worth considering.
[18:40:53] <James_F> Risker: Yes.
[18:40:57] <James_F> Risker: Do you think it would be appropriate for such a Signpost article to be written from within the team (me, maybe), from the community liaison team (whatami, maybe), or from an independent source?
[18:40:58] <Risker> a lot of people read it by pulling from someone else's talk page notice
[18:41:02] <James_F> Risker: I'm happy either way.
[18:41:14] <Elitre> Ideally, we should also try to reach those who do not really follow everything, but are still active/very active editors.
[18:41:37] <whatami> Does anyone else have another questions?
[18:41:52] <thedj> Elitre: good luck with the Golden goose hunt :)
[18:42:06] <Risker> I'd probably suggest one of the people who has done a fair bit of testing, if possible, with input from the team
[18:42:42] <thedj> It bears repeating.. IE ?
[18:42:49] <James_F> Risker: Testing from the community?
[18:43:03] <James_F> Risker: Do you have any candidates in mind?
[18:43:05] <Elitre> over 33,000 people should be testing VE on en.wp, according to the BetaFeatures tab. I don't recall hearing from many of them ;)
[18:43:24] <whatami> thedj, I know the devs were talking about IE today, but perhaps James_F can give us more details in a moment.
[18:43:26] <Elitre> (but ideas are so welcome!)
[18:43:26] <James_F> Elitre: Lots of people not complaining isn't necessarily a problem. :-)
[18:43:45] <thedj> Elitre: I'm more concerned with how many edits are being made with it.
[18:43:57] <Elitre> Risker: don't associate feedback with complaining! :p
[18:44:16] <thedj> also, the last few betafeatures have shown that the people who complain, don't use betafeatures to begin with.
[18:44:23] <whatami> thedj, I looked at the numbers for pt.wp last week, and it was about 20% of edits and about 50% of unique editors.
[18:44:27] <Risker> Elitre, I've got the feedback page watchlsited. While it's slowed down, there has been lots of feedback.
[18:44:28] <whatami> Every project is different, though.
[18:45:00] <thedj> whatami: some graphs of that for the next VE related blogpost might be an idea.
[18:45:02] <James_F> Elitre: Sure, but I recall the standard statistics are ~ 25:1 ratio of likeliness to give feedback for negative vs. positive experiences of software, soâ€¦
[18:45:04] <Elitre> That's the point, IMHO: if we get people to test it again after all these months, people can make informed decisions later.
[18:45:57] <James_F> Anyway, to answer thedj's question about Internet Explorer support:
[18:45:59] <Risker> Elitre, I think that's really the first step in moving forward on enwiki
[18:46:01] <Elitre> whatami is right, and feedback has changed a lot lately IMHO - lots and lots of constructive feedback and feature request/suggestion going on.
[18:46:14] <James_F> "We're working on it" is a bit lame, but that's essentially where we are
[18:46:26] <thedj> James_F: so there has been progress ?
[18:46:45] <thedj> or are we still stuck in a 'debug and analyze' phase ?
[18:46:56] <James_F> Right now the problem is that IE support is a bit of an onion (I'm avoiding saying it's a black hole) â€“ every time we find a bug we find another, bigger bug underneath.
[18:47:10] <James_F> thedj: Mostly still in debug-and-analyse, sadly.
[18:47:56] <thedj> K :/
[18:47:57] <James_F> thedj: That said, there are some areas where we're pretty sure we've made useful progress, though anything short of "working" isn't really that great news for actual users.
[18:48:35] <James_F> thedj: It's one of the big things we want to work on, but I can't usefully commit to a timeline until we know how big an issue it actually is.
[18:48:39] <James_F> (Sorry.)
[18:48:59] <whatami> Here's another question from outside IRC: VisualEditor isn't working in Firefox this weekÂ on Mediawiki.org. Â What's going on?
[18:49:13] <James_F> Aha, yeah, that.
[18:49:30] <James_F> So, first things first: it will be fixed today, before it affects any other wikis.
[18:50:07] <James_F> Detail: VisualEditor was doing things a little oddly, which worked in most browsers but silently did nothing much in Firefox.
[18:50:47] <James_F> Last Thursday, MediaWiki upgraded its version of jQuery. This meant that this "little odd" thing (for RTL support, as it happens) now works differently.
[18:51:09] <James_F> Unfortunately, in Firefox, this "differently" means "horribly, completely broken to the level of crashing the browser".
[18:51:47] <whatami> Just a quick interjection here: we're ten minutes from the end of this office hour.
[18:52:00] <James_F> This meant that any use of VisualEditor with Firefox would crash the browser process whenever you opened a dialog â€“ to edit a template, insert an image, or save the page.
[18:52:05] <James_F> I.e., completely useless.
[18:52:26] <James_F> Sadly the MediaWiki change happened just before release so we didn't get any time to test breakage, and, well, it broke. :-(
[18:52:40] <James_F> We've been working since Thursday to right this wrong, and it will be fixed later today.
[18:52:45] <James_F> Sorry for any disruption.
[18:53:09] <James_F> (Also, obviously, this is a bug in Firefox that we're going to report to Mozilla so that they can fix it, but users don't really care whose fault it is, just that it works.)
[18:53:25] <whatami> Thanks for that explanation, James.
[18:53:41] <James_F> The VisualEditor team has a habit of finding browser bugs and reporting them.
[18:53:52] <James_F> We've done about a dozen now, split roughly evenly between Firefox and Chrome.
[18:53:54] <thedj> So, with the 1st version of the references dialog finished, what are now the 3'ish next big goals for the VE team the coming time ?
[18:54:12] <thedj> where is the focus on?
[18:54:37] <James_F> thedj: Right now our main focus is on performance, stability, and tweaking the integration to be more consistent.
[18:55:13] <thedj> so there is no feature development on the short term roadmap ?
[18:55:37] <James_F> thedj: Not big ones â€“ the roadmap is at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor/Roadmap and you can see what we're working on. :-)
[18:56:11] <James_F> thedj: There's always more minor features we work on in the margins between other bouts of work, and the longer-term roadmap contains some particularly juicy feature improvements.
[18:56:48] <James_F> thedj: In particular, we're working with a GOPW mentee to build an auto-fill structured citation system for VisualEditor (and non-VisualEditor tools).
[18:57:34] <whatami> We've only got three minutes left, and I've promised to get James off to his next meeting on time. Does anyone want to squeeze in a quick question?
[18:57:39] <James_F> thedj: And the Mobile team are about to make VisualEditor available to beta users of their mobile version of the site, I believe.
[18:59:16] <James_F> Anything?
[18:59:19] <whatami> I think we're at the end of our scheduled time.
[18:59:22] <James_F> OK.
[18:59:24] <James_F> Thanks everyone!
[18:59:30] <whatami> Thanks for coming and bringing questions, everyone.
[18:59:34] <James_F> And thanks in particular to whatami. :-)
[18:59:40] * James_F waves.
[18:59:53] <whatami> The next meeting is posted here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours#Upcoming_office_hours
[18:59:54] <Elitre> bye all!
[19:00:16] <whatami> Good bye!
[19:02:49] <Stryn> next time 10:00 UTC until 16:00 UTC :O