IRC office hours/Office hours 2015-02-11
Time: 20:00-21:00 UTC
Timestamps are in UTC.
[19:59:16] <cndiv> Hi Everyone. Those who are here for the VE Triage Meeting: I'm running audio on this call, so if you need assistance or have comments, please ping me here. Thanks!
[19:59:41] <marktraceur> There's a public stream?
[19:59:55] <cndiv> marktraceur: Nope, just a phone call. You're welcome to call in.
[20:00:03] <Elitre> https://wikimedia.webex.com/wikimedia/j.php?MTID=m09ceba9c87e84c2d7d644f413910f5a1 is the link
[20:00:03] <marktraceur> A phone call? Wat
[20:00:08] <marktraceur> Oh christ webex
[20:00:19] * marktraceur runs to get an icepick
[20:01:12] <rdaiccherlb> We're starting the call, and James is beginning the meeting.
[20:01:14] <rdaiccherlb> Hello!
[20:01:17] <cndiv> would appreciate audio comments
[20:01:56] <cndiv> marktraceur: Yes, many global folks
[20:02:11] <cndiv> VERY strongly suggest joining via computer, not phone
[20:02:22] <rdaiccherlb> The first thing we are going to discuss are the release criteria for VisualEditor
[20:02:24] <marktraceur> My phone uses my wifi now anyway
[20:02:34] <marktraceur> But I'm not taking part, just being a whiner about the medium :)
[20:03:16] <andre__> gosh, clicking "Edit > Preferences" crashes that weird WebEx thingy, and microphone does not seem to work.
[20:03:26] <rdaiccherlb> Damon is asking for prodcutive conversation today to get ideas and bug from users into the triage
[20:03:27] <cndiv> andre__: What platform are you on?
[20:03:32] <andre__> cndiv, Fedora 21
[20:03:45] <rdaiccherlb> Specifically, this is the page where you can see the current list: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/view/1015/
[20:04:04] <guillom> Are we using an etherpad for this, or just IRC+phone+Phabricator?
[20:04:17] <whatami> Just IRC+Phab+WebEx.
[20:04:44] <guillom> https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/VEtriage if people want to take notes
[20:04:53] <whatami> (My experience with accessing WebEx via actual telephone was poor yesterday. I get better sound quality by using their plug-in.)
[20:05:44] <Elitre> Thanks for joining, gnubeard.
[20:05:48] <gnubeard> Can people hear the meeting OK?
[20:06:10] <cndiv> Audio comments very appreciated.
[20:06:22] <ragesoss> audio is okay.
[20:06:30] <ragesoss> 6/10
[20:06:42] <rdaiccherlb> James is dicussing the objectives and will unmute the channel for comments.
[20:07:05] <rdaiccherlb> Hi, if you are on the call, and if you have a comment,
[20:07:12] <andre__> oh. I see. Sorry then. Wasn't aware of this. So my microphone does work. :)
[20:07:24] <rdaiccherlb> If you are not on the call, ragesoss is calling in
[20:07:27] <Marybelle> Unmute the channel?
[20:07:38] <andre__> yes, the audio is pretty fine.
[20:07:45] <rdaiccherlb> Marybelle are you muted?
[20:07:50] <rdaiccherlb> People are talking
[20:07:53] <guillom> Please introduce yourself when talking
[20:08:00] <guillom> I think this is MArk H
[20:08:22] <guillom> (h.exmode)
[20:08:31] <marcoil> guillom: who is speaking appears on the participants sidebar (at least here)
[20:08:37] <marktraceur> Mark Andrew H maybe. Oh wait no.
[20:08:52] <marktraceur> #replacenameswithSHA1
[20:09:18] <guillom> marcoil: ah, ok. For people on this end of the call, we only hear voices (the webex interface isn't displayed here)
[20:09:21] <Marybelle> Okay, so what's the first task to discuss?
[20:09:42] <gnubeard> Marybelle: We are talking about release criteria now.
[20:09:48] <rdaiccherlb> We are currently taking questions about the Objectives and criteria. We are moving on to the blockers
[20:09:51] <gnubeard> Now, we are going through the blocker nominations.
[20:09:52] <rdaiccherlb> You can see them here
[20:10:01] <Marybelle> Talking where? Was I supposed to call in?
[20:10:08] <andre__> -> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/sprint/board/1015/
[20:10:11] <Marybelle> I thought we were meeting in here.
[20:10:11] <Romaine> I can hear the meeting OK yes
[20:10:22] <andre__> Call in info: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:VisualEditor/Portal
[20:10:25] <guillom> Marybelle: No, webex
[20:10:28] <rdaiccherlb> Marybelle pming you
[20:10:35] <gnubeard> Marybelle: Itâ€™s both dial-in and IRC as a backchannel for URL sharing and sidebar convos.
[20:10:43] <Marybelle> Urgh.
[20:11:57] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T74048
[20:12:16] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T86921
[20:12:33] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T72665
[20:12:40] <Elitre> Thanks a lot, whatami.
[20:12:54] <rdaiccherlb> Thanks whatami :)
[20:13:10] <rdaiccherlb> James is thinking this is a Nice to Have rather than a blocker
[20:13:12] <gnubeard> Yes, really helps to have the task urls posted in the channel. :)
[20:13:31] <ragesoss> I agree that T72665 should not be a blocker.
[20:14:03] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T67589
[20:14:17] <Elitre> Thanks James for writing explanations about de-prioritization.
[20:14:40] <rdaiccherlb> James says he will be writing up the documentation for this later today.
[20:14:45] <guillom> That one sounds like an easter egg :)
[20:15:26] <rdaiccherlb> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T67589 is an accessibility issue but to a advanced feature.
[20:15:54] <Marybelle> Table editing is advanced?
[20:16:10] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89025
[20:16:32] <andre__> Marybelle, was that literally said?
[20:16:47] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T88148
[20:17:12] <Marybelle> andre__: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T67589 was mentioned as an advanced feature.
[20:17:34] <andre__> Marybelle, I think editing tables and moving in them with your keyboard is a bit advanced, indeed
[20:17:36] <rdaiccherlb> Marybelle I will hold your question
[20:17:44] <andre__> but feel free to disagree :)
[20:17:59] <Marybelle> It's not really advanced to anyone who's ever used Excel.
[20:18:03] <Marybelle> But all right.
[20:18:08] <Marybelle> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T88148 looks pretty strange.
[20:18:21] <Marybelle> I'm not sure I'd call "wikitable wikitable" --> "wikitable" corruption, per se.
[20:18:23] <gnubeard> Marybelle: Trevor is addressing â€œadvancedâ€
[20:18:26] <rdaiccherlb> Trevor is following up - it's advanced relative to this conversation.
[20:18:40] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T74929
[20:19:57] <Marybelle> https://de.wikipedia.org/?diff=138315500 seems to be worrying in other ways besides the wikitable class. What's with the ?
[20:20:01] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T74579
[20:20:21] <gnubeard> Marybelle: Sounds like a good comment for the task. :)
[20:20:22] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T74398
[20:20:27] <rdaiccherlb> T74579 accepted
[20:21:19] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T72375
[20:21:45] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T70537
[20:23:41] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T88386
[20:24:23] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T78202
[20:24:56] <guillom> cndiv: Quick question: how many people are there on the call?
[20:25:02] <Elitre> 17.
[20:25:05] <cndiv> guillom: yep
[20:25:07] <guillom> thanks :)
[20:25:24] <guillom> How many from the WTF and how many not?
[20:25:27] <guillom> errr
[20:25:29] <guillom> WMF
[20:25:32] <cndiv> guillom: but two of those are us here in the room. One is me and the other is the speakerphones in the room.
[20:25:52] <Elitre> How can we say? People are using nicknames here ;)
[20:25:54] <cndiv> Elitre: you can identify who's WMF and who isn't easier than I can...
[20:26:01] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T76715
[20:26:04] <guillom> NO worries; I was just curious
[20:26:20] <guillom> I expected more people
[20:26:23] <rdaiccherlb> More people than GHangout can accommodate, at any rate
[20:26:36] <guillom> 15 is the limit in hangouts?
[20:26:36] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T76523
[20:26:56] <rdaiccherlb> yes
[20:27:25] <rdaiccherlb> Thank you to whomever +1'd via phone :)
[20:27:25] <guillom> thanks
[20:27:33] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T66171
[20:28:08] <rdaiccherlb> Parsoid bug and it's being accepted as a dependency
[20:28:22] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T55825
[20:28:37] <Marybelle> I'm not on the call, but all the tasks in here seem to be blockers and everyone seems to agree.
[20:28:46] <Romaine> "Call-in user_2" is very clear who that is (not)
[20:29:31] <Elitre> Marybelle: some were rejected, and explanation will be published for those.
[20:30:04] <guillom> Only two have been rejected
[20:30:14] <Marybelle> I may be seeing a biased sample in here, but I agree with acceptance for most of these.
[20:30:21] <Marybelle> Page corruption is intolerable.
[20:30:53] <tnegrin> what are the memory usage targets?
[20:31:30] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T53798
[20:31:37] <Eloquence> tnegrin - no baseline yet, need measurement first
[20:31:38] <tnegrin> Marybelle: definitely
[20:31:42] <tnegrin> I would like a ticket for the measurement/baselines
[20:31:46] <rdaiccherlb> Said we don't have a baseline for mem usuage targets righ now, tnegrin
[20:32:10] <tnegrin> it happens -- primary focus has been on functionality. now we have to optimize -- it's the right order
[20:32:28] <guillom> if you refresh the phabricator board you'll see them at the top of the "nominated" column
[20:32:28] <guillom> (first 3)
[20:32:28] <guillom> Trevor says: we don't have a baseline, so we don't have targets
[20:32:28] <guillom> Needs to consult with ori & Roan
[20:32:28] <guillom> now https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T53798
[20:32:34] <guillom> (sorry, was lagging)
[20:33:46] <hexmode> Should be more of a tracker
[20:34:06] <hexmode> and reworded to not say "every"
[20:34:35] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52616
[20:36:08] <hexmode> benchmarked against ff34 though it does mention ff21
[20:38:45] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T88337
[20:39:05] <rdaiccherlb> Trevor already working on this one
[20:41:38] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89074
[20:41:44] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89072
[20:41:54] <rdaiccherlb> These two bugs are hand in hand
[20:42:33] <whatami> These two are about new editors.
[20:42:34] <rdaiccherlb> Suggested "Getting Started" or something like it to intriduce user to VE
[20:43:18] <rdaiccherlb> Not in favor of this being a blocker to to getting the actualy sofware shipped
[20:43:31] <rdaiccherlb> Discussion from a product perspective
[20:44:26] <rdaiccherlb> Talking about last few weeks for polish
[20:46:43] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T88650
[20:47:15] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T88623
[20:48:46] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T88316
[20:50:01] <rdaiccherlb> Skepticism about this one being a blocker
[20:50:30] <rdaiccherlb> Possibly a polish task according to eng. If threre are any thoughts on that
[20:51:36] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T87553
[20:52:13] <rdaiccherlb> This is a large performance task. Thinking there's scope for taking it but needs to specify which aspects
[20:53:12] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T86693
[20:54:05] <rdaiccherlb> It's a design bug which team not convinced is a current top priority. User testing has indicaated that people can find the toolbar
[20:54:46] <whatami> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T76398
[20:55:11] <rdaiccherlb> Feeature change around link inspector. James thinks it can be accepted.
[20:55:55] <whatami> Trevor thinks this is not a blocker.
[20:56:10] <rdaiccherlb> Trevor wants to discuss more, doesn't think it would be a blocker
[20:57:08] <rdaiccherlb> Brief discussion here.
[20:57:30] <rdaiccherlb> We are going to discuss this one more, and welcome input
[20:57:56] <rdaiccherlb> 2 tickets letft but any feedback?
[20:57:57] <whatami> Stopping the list now.
[20:58:04] <rdaiccherlb> Phone users are all unmuted,
[20:58:12] <rdaiccherlb> Computer users can unmute themselves
[20:58:18] <whatami> James requests feedback on the conversation.
[20:58:33] <rdaiccherlb> We're just about at time.
[20:59:43] <andre__> Regarding feedback I can just say: Such meetings are helpful to see how decisions are made and what general arguments are.
[21:00:12] <Elitre> Thanks everyone for coming! Keep watching wiki/lists for updates. And Phab tasks, of course - please comment, and nominate future blockers!
[21:00:39] <guillom> Feedback about the process is welcome at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:VisualEditor/Portal
[21:00:44] <rdaiccherlb> Feedback about this meeting in general, visual editor portal is a good p;ace to do so
[21:01:11] <ragesoss> So
[21:01:47] <ragesoss> I have a context question, which I might have missed because I got in a fight with Linux about whether it was okay to run WebEx at the beginning...
[21:02:05] <rdaiccherlb> Under the announcement will be OK for that: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:VisualEditor/Portal
[21:02:07] <ragesoss> What does it mean to be a Q3 blocker, exactly?
[21:02:13] <Romaine> Quarter 3
[21:02:26] <Romaine> I guess
[21:02:29] <ragesoss> yes, Q1 is January - April.
[21:02:35] <ragesoss> April 1 that is.
[21:02:36] <whatami> There's a Q3 (until the end of March) goal of having VisualEditor "ready to ship".
[21:02:43] <Elitre> ragesoss: it's explained at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/view/1015/ ?
[21:02:48] <rdaiccherlb> ragesoss, the're here: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/view/1015/
[21:02:53] <whatami> No, they're using fiscal years, not calendar years.
[21:03:01] <rdaiccherlb> We're surrounded by links!
[21:03:19] <ragesoss> yeah, I'm looking at the 1015 tracker...
[21:03:29] <whatami> "Q3 blockers" are the things that need to be fixed before that goal could be reasonably declared to have been achieved.
[21:03:43] <Elitre> Also, see Measures of success at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2014-15_Goals#Top_departmental_priorities_for_Q3_.28January-March_2015.29 !
[21:04:00] <ragesoss> okay. and the goal is the be 'ready to ship', but not specifically, say 'have actually shipped to en.wiki'?
[21:04:59] <whatami> Exactly.
[21:05:10] <Elitre> ragesoss: that's what the page says :)
[21:05:41] <whatami> Also, I believe that the "ready to ship" goal is tailored to the needs of new editors, not power users like me.
[21:06:55] <ragesoss> I just wasn't sure whether 'ready to ship' had an implied correlary, 'it ships when it's ready'. But the 'subject to community happiness' caveat explains that. Thanks much for the links.
[21:07:10] <whatami> You're welcome.
[21:07:33] <ragesoss> FWIW, Wiki Ed has asked a few experienced instructors this term to ask their students to start with VE.
[21:07:35] <whatami> Also, for anyone else who's still around: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:VisualEditor/Portal has (minimal) instructions on how to add something to the list for next week's meeting.
[21:07:56] <ragesoss> feedback so far is positive, so I think for the August-December term, we'll recommend that for all classes.
[21:08:07] <whatami> If anyone needs help getting something on the list, then please reach out to James F or someone else.
[21:08:32] <whatami> I'm glad that the feedback is positive so far.
[21:09:08] <ragesoss> For my part, I think adding 'cite by url' would make it good enough that most newcomers would have a better experience.
[21:09:41] <ragesoss> (and that was already an accepted blocker at the outset of this meeting)
[21:09:57] <harej> ragesoss: standard Wikimedia DC procedure is to encourage people to turn on visual editor when they create new accounts... though it looks like it's on by default now?
[21:10:13] <ragesoss> harej: no, it shouldn't be on by default for newcomers.
[21:10:24] <harej> ah. then i guess someone had a lapse in memory :]
[21:10:34] <harej> (on by default strictly for new accounts, i mean)
[21:11:08] <ragesoss> Yeah, unless that changed very recently, it's not on by default.
[21:11:19] <rdaiccherlb> If your Beta features are enabled, you do get used to seeing it though
[21:11:43] <rdaiccherlb> It is not on by default. The goal of burning down the bug chart is to get it ready to be
[21:13:29] <Elitre> Thanks all for coming, again! Talk to you all on wikis.