IRC office hours/Office hours 2015-03-27

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Time: 15:00-16:00 UTC
Channel: #wikimedia-office
Timestamps are in UTC.

[14:54:42] <Elitre> hey all. Ready to start an office hour about VisualEditor with James_F?
[14:54:51] * James_F waves.
[14:56:02] <Elitre> I like the way you actually wave, James. I'm never sure if you remind me more of Star Trek salutes, or the Queen of England's ones.
[14:59:44] <James_F> Elitre: I promise that I am neither royal nor Vulcan. :-)
[15:00:36] <comets> he is mexican ..
[15:00:58] <Elitre> Hello everyone, we're ready to start then.
[15:02:07] <Elitre> Before James briefs us with the most recent happenings in VE-land, I'd like to remind this is going to be the last office hour for a while, in this format. We'll discuss about this later, of course. ( for reference).
[15:02:42] * James_F nods.
[15:03:04] <Elitre> go ahead, James :)
[15:03:18] <James_F> It's be fun doing these office hours monthly, but it's not apparently been so useful.
[15:03:32] <James_F> Anyway.
[15:03:58] <James_F> In the past month or so, the big news in VisualEditor terms is the first release of the long-awaited automatic citation tool.
[15:04:32] <James_F> The purpose of this tool is that you give it a URL or something similar and it goes off, looks up the data, and creates the citation for you automatically.
[15:04:48] <James_F> No filling in of boring fields like "title", "author", "last accessed".
[15:05:13] <James_F> No hunting for obscure but important information like "ISSN" or similar.
[15:05:44] <James_F> A much quicker, easier way to create references that encourages people to create more, better-referenced content.
[15:05:59] <James_F> Right now, we've enabled the tool on the French and Italian Wikipedias.
[15:06:26] <James_F> It's not replaced the old tool where you can fill in each field, which is still available.
[15:06:43] <James_F> But it's taken over the primary slot in the toolbar, so it's pretty prominent.
[15:07:19] <Elitre> You know I'm not a great fan of the current design though :)
[15:07:37] <James_F> Currently we're using the feedback we're getting from French and Italian Wikipedias' usage to adjust and improve it – there's only so much testing you can do in synthetic tests, much of what we learn only happens when it's used by real people to do real things.
[15:07:48] <Chess> I have a question
[15:07:58] <James_F> And yes, of course, everything is subject to change to make things better, as always. :-)
[15:08:03] <James_F> Chess: Please, fire away.
[15:08:23] <Elitre> If you want to try the tool right now at or, you need to click /on/ the icon of the bookmarked book (clicking on the arrow will show the Cite menu instead).
[15:09:15] <Elitre> All, please prepare your questions as well ;)
[15:09:20] <Chess>
[15:09:26] <Chess> What do you think of glitch?
[15:10:24] <James_F> Chess: I don't understand. What glitch?
[15:10:32] <Chess> The glitch in an edit on that page
[15:10:35] <Chess> Page is deleted
[15:10:51] <Chess> But there was a weird glitch in media editor
[15:11:01] <James_F> The edit was made in July 2013.
[15:11:44] <James_F> That's a quite common bug with a browser which we prevented years ago, after that.
[15:11:53] <James_F> It doesn't happen any more.
[15:12:12] <James_F> Chess: Does that answer your question?
[15:12:17] <Elitre> But of course, if you experience other glitches, let us know.
[15:12:38] <James_F> Absolutely. :-)
[15:13:05] <Chess> Yes
[15:13:12] <James_F> OK, good.
[15:13:54] <Elitre> Other major updates, James? Everybody, feel free to interrupt with questions.
[15:14:15] <James_F> Well, mostly people will care about the auto-filled citation tool. :-)
[15:14:30] <Chess> How will templates work?
[15:14:54] <Elitre> Chess: with this new feature, you mean?
[15:14:57] <Chess> I feel like this has been asked before though
[15:15:02] <Chess> No, in general
[15:15:05] <James_F> It's based on Zotero, so if you're part of that community you can help make the tool better by improving the translators and adding new ones.
[15:15:15] <Chess> How do you make templates in visual editor?
[15:15:26] <Chess> Will I be able to?
[15:15:26] <James_F> We currently have URL, DOI, PMID and PMCID look-up.
[15:15:38] <James_F> Chess: Do you mean, use a template in an article, or create a new template?
[15:15:51] <Chess> Use a template in an article
[15:16:22] <James_F> Yes, that's been possible for two years now. :-)
[15:16:35] <Chess> How??????
[15:16:42] <Elitre> (If you have time, Chess, we'd like to know if information provided at is useful enough :) )
[15:16:53] <Chess> Ooh
[15:16:59] <Elitre> See, Chess ;)
[15:18:59] <Negative24> James_F: Have you seen a bug where if there are closing div tags, headings always want to be after with new div tags?
[15:19:00] <James_F> Chess: I'm not totally happy with the template editing experience, so if you have any thoughts about making it better I'd be happy to hear them, now or in the future.

[15:19:31] <James_F> Negative24: Do you mean if someone opens a
tag inside a heading and tries to close it outside the heading?

[15:20:26] <Negative24> No. If the whole page is wrapped in div tags for formatting, headings want to close those divs and start the same div tags.
[15:20:52] <Elitre> Negative24: a diff, maybe? :)
[15:21:01] <James_F> Hmm. That sounds odd. Can you give a link to a page where this happens?
[15:21:37] <Negative24> James_F:
[15:22:00] <Negative24> try editing it and refer to my other user pages to see what is supposed to happen
[15:22:17] <James_F> Negative24: OK if I edit it?
[15:22:23] <Negative24> Sure
[15:23:27] <James_F> Negative24: for simple editing works.
[15:23:54] <James_F> Oh, I see.
[15:24:03] <Negative24> Headings are the problem
[15:24:03] <James_F> Hmm. Yeah, we should fix that. Thanks for the report.
[15:24:14] <Negative24> Ok didn't know if that was reported
[15:25:02] <Elitre> thank you for telling us, Negative24.
[15:25:16] <Negative24> James_F: CC me on the task
[15:26:19] <James_F> Negative24: Done. ( for others.)
[15:30:32] <Elitre> So to go back to the new reference system, if you want to try it now, you could do so at .
[15:31:01] <Elitre> James, do you have other for us, or should we discuss the future of these office hours?
[15:31:48] <Negative24> Do you have a page on the beta cluster that we can edit with VE?
[15:32:25] <James_F> Negative24: All pages on the Beta Cluster should be edited.
[15:32:46] <James_F> Negative24: is what I use for testing.
[15:32:51] <Elitre> You'll need to activate VE from the Beta Features, of course.
[15:32:56] <James_F> Yeah.
[15:33:05] <Elitre> speaking of which, James_F
[15:33:10] <Stryn> (you need to register first)
[15:33:39] <Elitre> I just realized even Meta still has VE as a Beta Feature.
[15:33:41] <Negative24> Stryn: Oh I have. I just thought that they had a specific page
[15:33:58] <Elitre> I was wondering whether/when this would change :)
[15:34:16] <James_F> Elitre: Well, Meta asked for VisualEditor.
[15:34:30] <Negative24> Woah! Citation tool!
[15:34:37] <Negative24> I didn't notice that
[15:34:41] <Elitre> LOL Negative24 :)
[15:34:44] <comets> its better off disabled..
[15:35:05] <James_F> But Meta has a lot of pages that use the Translate extension, and unfortunately that doesn't work with VisualEditor (and we'll need to get the Translate team to re-write it from scratch to work with modern MediaWiki standards).
[15:35:22] <Elitre> James_F: is the progress bar at the test site coming to production at some point?
[15:35:29] <Elitre> I prefer the current one.
[15:35:47] <James_F> So enabling it by default could happen, but I worry that people won't notice the warning about editing Translate pages.
[15:35:55] <James_F> Negative24: What do you think? :_)
[15:36:11] <Elitre> sure James_F. no rush.
[15:36:11] <James_F> Elitre: The new one is live now on and will go onto Wikipedias on Wednesday.
[15:36:15] <Negative24> Its amazing. Way better than the source editing citation tool
[15:36:27] <James_F> Negative24: We aim to please.
[15:36:40] <James_F> Negative24: It's not perfect yet, but it's a good start.
[15:36:45] <Negative24> That much is apparent
[15:37:00] <Negative24> (talking about the 1st comment :) )
[15:37:04] <James_F> For example, we don't yet have ISBN lookup.
[15:37:05] * James_F grins.
[15:37:43] <James_F> So far, it appears that getting ISBN lookup will require us to sign some less-than-ideal contracts and spend quite a bit of money.
[15:37:43] <Elitre> can I ask for a lighter shade of blue for the loading bar at least?
[15:37:46] * Elitre picky
[15:37:57] <James_F> So we're trying to find a way to not waste donor money.
[15:38:09] <James_F> Elitre: Absolutely, we might switch back to the lighter blue.
[15:38:30] <Elitre> James_F: please do! it feels more VE-ish :)
[15:38:49] <James_F> Elitre: The darker blue is actually the "official" blue from Design that we're meant to user.
[15:38:51] <James_F> Err.
[15:38:54] <James_F> … meant to use.
[15:39:01] <James_F> But I think it's too heavy for this usecase.
[15:39:15] <James_F> Maybe I'll just change it and see if Design shout at me. :-)
[15:39:29] <Elitre> definitely. I'll go complain on Phab. Do you have a task handy?
[15:39:46] <Negative24> I like the new loading bar in that it tells the user when to actually expect the VE bar to show up
[15:39:57] <James_F> Negative24: Yeah, that was the main reason we did it.
[15:40:16] <James_F> Negative24: Also, a lot of newbie users when we tested it didn't even see the previous loading animation.
[15:40:26] <James_F> You certainly can't miss the one now. :-)
[15:40:38] <Negative24> Front and center
[15:40:52] * Elitre gives up her hopes then.
[15:41:02] <James_F> Elitre: We can find a compromise, I hope.
[15:41:03] <James_F> Negative24: So the plan is to enable the citation tool on the English Wikipedia early next week. Does that sound good to you?
[15:41:15] <Negative24> That's great!
[15:41:24] <Negative24> I need it in my life :)
[15:42:13] <Elitre> Negative24: if you'd like to do some more tests at the beta site, I'd like to take a look at those later, or in the weekend. :)
[15:42:34] <James_F> Negative24: Yessir. :-)
[15:42:36] <Negative24> Elitre: On the citation tool?
[15:42:43] <Elitre> Negative24: yup!
[15:43:12] <Negative24> Will do
[15:43:28] <Elitre> Negative24: thank you so much!
[15:45:32] <Elitre> ok, almost 15 minutes to go, and if there are no other questions, I'd really like to discuss a bit about office hours in the future.
[15:46:45] <James_F> Sure.
[15:47:42] <Elitre> is the Phabricator task where we can also have a conversation at any point.
[15:48:37] <Elitre> What would work best in the future? Negative24, Stryn, do you have opinions?
[15:49:16] <Negative24> I like Google Hangouts but I've never joined one. I was planning on it on Wednesday but Comcast hates me.
[15:49:25] <Negative24> *joined a VE hangout
[15:49:44] <Elitre> Negative24: :( I also like the idea of audio/videochats.
[15:50:07] <James_F> Negative24: You mean the weekly triage meetings? Cool.
[15:50:12] <Negative24> Yeah
[15:50:17] <Stryn> I personally like to see these office hours on IRC... but so bad there is not many users participating... or maybe they are like me, just silent and read what you tell :)
[15:50:30] * James_F grins.
[15:50:51] <James_F> Stryn: We already have the monthly newsletter.
[15:51:02] <James_F> Stryn: I'm not sure how much more value this gives over that?
[15:51:12] <Stryn> right
[15:51:15] <Elitre> Stryn: I don't want to disappoint users like you, of course, but I also need interaction and feedback, for live events.
[15:52:25] <Negative24> James_F: Does the lookup tool only work for websites?
[15:52:51] <James_F> Negative24: No, it does DOIs too.
[15:53:03] <James_F> Negative24: For example, if you search for "10.1007/11926078_68" it will return a Template:Cite Journal.
[15:53:19] <Negative24> Ok. Don't know were to find those but it doesn't return The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy :)
[15:53:42] <James_F> It doesn't do string search, if that's what you mean.
[15:54:13] <James_F> Negative24: But if you paste in it works. :_0
[15:54:20] <Elitre> James, I demand you make Citoid return a proper Cite book about the Guide just by feeding it "42".
[15:54:35] <Negative24> +1 :)
[15:54:37] <James_F> Elitre: No. :-P
[15:54:49] <James_F> There are very few Wikipedia articles that need that as a reference.
[15:55:01] <James_F> Honest. :-)
[15:55:16] <Elitre> James_F: it was only for the lulz. (but I'll take note of the No.)
[15:55:24] * James_F grins.
[15:55:24] <Elitre> 5 minutes warning!
[15:55:36] <Negative24> Office hours go really fast
[15:55:59] <Elitre> Negative24: the irony of this one! in some of the others we were pretty lonely.
[15:56:14] <James_F> Elitre: It's all Negative24's fault. :-)
[15:56:18] <Negative24> So from now on the triage meetings will be hangouts only?
[15:56:24] <Negative24> Sorry for engaging
[15:56:34] <Negative24> Comcast decided to work now
[15:56:37] <Elitre> Negative24: much <3 for being here :)
[15:56:57] <Negative24> <3
[15:57:26] <Negative24> James_F: Was that what you were referring to when you said that ISBN lookup wasn't worth it?
[15:57:36] <Negative24> No title lookup?
[15:57:47] <James_F> Negative24: No, it's worth it. We just need to work out a way to not spend millions doing it. :-)
[15:58:24] <James_F> Negative24: But yes, that's not title lookup. I guess we could add that too, but that's not currently planned.
[15:58:43] <Negative24> Ok
[16:00:00] <Elitre> Ok everybody.
[16:00:07] <Elitre> This is a wrap.
[16:00:12] <James_F> Thanks everyone!
[16:00:13] <Elitre> Thank you al for coming.
[16:01:07] <Elitre> keep an eye on the newsletter and on to learn about future meetings, and news about VE of course.
[16:01:13] * Elitre waves.