Movement roles/Working group meeting 2011-2-4

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[10:50] == Jon____ [56a696da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.166.150.218] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[10:51] == dami_hun [54033446@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.3.52.70] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[10:53] <Austin> lyzzy: You mean you actually get to walk around and do things? Lucky.
[10:55] <lyzzy> something like that :P
[10:59] == aklempert [~chatzilla@195.33.3.129] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[11:00] <aklempert> hiho
[11:00] <dami_hun> hi all
[11:00]  * Austin waves at akl
[11:00] <Jon____> Hello everybody
[11:02] <Jon____> Barry sent his apologies, as it is 3am in SF
[11:03] <Jon____> Morgan and Asaf said that they would join us, although I cannot see them here
[11:03] == eia-meeting [~eia@wikimedia/effeietsanders]
[11:03] ==  realname : New Now Know How
[11:03] ==  channels : #wikimedia-roles
[11:03] ==  server   : kornbluth.freenode.net [Frankfurt, Germany]
[11:03] ==  account  : effeietsanders
[11:03] == End of WHOIS
[11:04] <Jon____> How does everybody feel about our weekend of work in Frankfurt?
[11:04] == Asaf [6d42296d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.66.41.109] has joined #wikimedia-roles
[11:04]  * Asaf waves
[11:05] <Austin> Hi Asaf
[11:05] <Jon____> Hi Asaf
[11:06] == eia-meeting has changed nick to effeietsanders
[11:07] <Austin> Well, for my part, I feel better about the project than I did in the weeks before.
[11:07] <effeietsanders> Jon____: I think it provides us again with a nice time path and great opportuynities
[11:07] <effeietsanders> but most of the work is still ahead
[11:07] <Austin> Which shouldn't imply a sense of despair or anything, but it's good to see we're back on track. :)
[11:08] <effeietsanders> (and I think not everybody was as amused here that I got another load of action points and commitments ;-) )
[11:09] <Austin> Just assure them that there's plenty of Lodewijk to go around. ;)
[11:09] <effeietsanders> Austin: about that track, would it be useful to extract the action points and deadlines from the meeting notes to a seperate page?
[11:09] <Austin> Yes, I think so.
[11:09] <Austin> I was just looking at them and trying to pull out the "immediate action" bits.
[11:10] <Jon____> There is a lot of work to do ... it's great that we have a team to share it
[11:10] <Austin> http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/January_meeting/Etherpad_notes#PLAN_MOVING_FORWARD
[11:10] <Austin> (I'll break that out into a separate page)
[11:12] <Jon____> Lodewijk, if I read that correctly, are you working with SJ to put our meeting notes onto meta?
[11:13] <effeietsanders> Jon____: the raw notes yes
[11:13] <Austin> I can jump in and help as well; it's a rather daunting mass of text
[11:13] <effeietsanders> but not done that up to now, have been busy with getting rid of backlogs here
[11:13] <effeietsanders> our main task was to get a little context on meta
[11:14] <effeietsanders> iirc not so much the processing of the raw notes into a nice sausage
[11:15] <delphine> hi all :)
[11:15] <Jon____> hi Delphine
[11:15] <Austin> Hey Del
[11:15] <delphine> Jon____: you got an awful lot of underscores
[11:16] <Austin> Lodewijk: not a perfect sausage, but I think the idea was a little bit of distillation
[11:16] <delphine> yes, although not too much either
[11:16] <Austin> Right
[11:16] <delphine> I think that breaking stuff into pieces should allow for the more sausage thing
[11:16] <effeietsanders> delphine: too common of a name
[11:16] <delphine> ie. our plan to let stuff out in little pieces
[11:17] <delphine> the raw notes are not going to be advertised as such, are they
[11:17] <delphine> ?
[11:17] <Jon____> IIRC the note on the etherpad captures the spirit of what we agreed "Write an overview of the meeting, includnig context,and post along with notes to meta. (SJ and Lodewijk)"
[11:17]  * delphine can't remember
[11:17] <effeietsanders> delphine: afaik they will be linked to in the email Jon is going to send
[11:17] <delphine> ah ok
[11:17] <effeietsanders> but not many people will read it ;-)
[11:17]  * delphine pikes aklempert
[11:17] <delphine> *pokes
[11:18] <Jon____> that's right.  I will send an email pointing people to meta, where the notes will be posted, along with the overview and context
[11:18] <delphine> yeah, that's the idea
[11:18] <delphine> ok, good
[11:18] <Austin> And yes, most people will still be completely lost when trying to read the notes, but they're there if they want to try
[11:18] <effeietsanders> I'll see if I can catch SJ once he awakens
[11:18] <Asaf> piking is a bit... extreme. :)
[11:18] <Jon____> the raw notes are on MR wiki ... thanks Austin!
[11:18] <Austin> I did a tiny bit of reformatting before I posted, but it's still very rough
[11:19] <Austin> ("Wikifying," as we used to say)
[11:19] <Jon____> they are fine for any of us who was at the meeting
[11:19] <effeietsanders> Austin: i think the rough is good
[11:19] <Austin> I agree
[11:19] <effeietsanders> that way people know we're not hiding anything ;-)
[11:19] <Austin> Just trying to make clear that I didn't make any substantive changes, I just converted some ~~~s and ***s
[11:20]  * aklempert wonders why he got poked
[11:20] <effeietsanders> aklempert: she likes to play poker
[11:20] <Austin> Not just poked, but piked
[11:20] <effeietsanders> (or piker)
[11:20] <effeietsanders> ok
[11:21] <effeietsanders> so, me and sj will work on that publication, austin will extract the action points and create an exhausting list?
[11:21] <delphine> exhausting I hope not ;)
[11:21] <delphine> exhaustive probably :P
[11:21] <effeietsanders> probably both
[11:22] <delphine> Austin: I did some reformating in some places. The css is stoopid though, the titles are really small as soon as you go under ====
[11:22] <effeietsanders> ====<big>blaat</big>==== ?
[11:22] <Jon____> so ... sounds like we will have a page on meta about our Frankfurt meeting that will include overview, context, notes, and action points ... is that right?
[11:23] <delphine> effeietsanders: Austin can do better than adding strong tags everywhere, I'm sure :P
[11:23] <effeietsanders> Jon____: multiple pages, i hope
[11:23] == effeietsanders [~eia@wikimedia/effeietsanders]
[11:23] ==  realname : New Now Know How
[11:23] ==  channels : #wikimedia-roles
[11:23] ==  server   : kornbluth.freenode.net [Frankfurt, Germany]
[11:23] ==  account  : effeietsanders
[11:23] == End of WHOIS
[11:23] <Jon____> sure
[11:23] <Austin> del: yeah, I'm trying to figure out a better way
[11:23] <effeietsanders> Jon____: but the summary will be made by you, correct? (me and sj focussing on context)
[11:24] <effeietsanders> (as that would basically be the email you would be sending out)_
[11:24] <Jon____> I'll do the email that goes out ... SJ and you are doing the overview and context on meta
[11:24] <Asaf> is there an agenda for today beside the notes?
[11:25] <Jon____> I'm not writing a summary beyond a few words in the email
[11:25] <Jon____> Good question Asaf
[11:25] <Jon____> We should cover three points today: notes, actions going forward, and planning for our next meeting in Berlin (which is the deadline for the actions)
[11:27] <effeietsanders> we covered the notes
[11:27] <Jon____> the notes are pretty much covered: we agreed three steps in FRA: post the raw notes on MR wiki (done by Austin), post the notes with overview and context on meta (SJ & Lodewijk (in discussion), and send out an email pointing to meta (which I will do once meta is ready)
[11:27] <delphine> ok, so notes is good right?
[11:28] <Jon____> yes, I think so
[11:29] <effeietsanders> for the action points we agreed that austin will make a list - i assume you can send a link/the list on the mailing list too?
[11:29] <effeietsanders> then we covered that too :)
[11:29] <Jon____> Lodewijk, can you ping me once the pages are ready on meta, and I'll send out the email?
[11:29] <effeietsanders> Jon____: we will send an email to our mailing list for sure
[11:30] <Jon____> great.  then I'll work on the one to go to internal-l etc.
[11:31] <Jon____> On the action steps, the next key item is the matrix
[11:32] <Jon____> We said we would put it on meta on Thurs, 10th Feb
[11:32] <delphine> yes, I've already kickstarted that process, although not sure anyone was awake at the time :)
[11:32] <aklempert> Jon____: just give the group a few hours to look at the stuff lodewijk and sj did put up, before you invite the rest of the world to read it
[11:32] <Jon____> no problem.  how about if I give it 24 hours?
[11:33] <Jon____> thanks for the kickstart, Delphine!
[11:34] <aklempert> Jon____: 24 hours should be enough, thanks
[11:34] <Jon____> thx
[11:35] <delphine> So I've assumed we'd make sub-pages for each bit
[11:35] <effeietsanders> delphine: can you link to your kickstart?
[11:36] <Jon____> that will make it more digestible.  can we keep a consistent format across all of the pages?
[11:36] <delphine> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles/Roles_Matrix
[11:36] <delphine> effeietsanders: I sent an email to the people who said they'd be interested
[11:36] <delphine> I thought we should keep different conversations separate
[11:36] <effeietsanders> ah, ok :)
[11:36] <delphine> otherwise the list is going to be a mess
[11:37] <delphine> but basically
[11:37] <delphine> I was seeing the following:
[11:37] <delphine> INTRODUCTION
[11:37] <delphine> where we put things in context
[11:37]  * effeietsanders wouldnt mind if all subgroup conversations are on movementroles-l
[11:37] <delphine> THE MATRIX
[11:37] <delphine> the matrix itself, in a wiki format
[11:37] <lyzzy> i am looking for someone to create a nice wiki-table
[11:37] <delphine> lyzzy: we can ask kibble ;)
[11:37] <effeietsanders> guillaume :P
[11:37] == kibble [~cbrown@wikimedia/Cbrown1023]
[11:37] ==  realname : Casey Brown
[11:38] ==  channels : #wikimedia-roles
[11:38] ==  server   : barjavel.freenode.net [Paris, FR]
[11:38] ==  away     : I'm not here [screen detached, bbl]... try memo or e-mail
[11:38] ==  account  : Cbrown1023
[11:38] == End of WHOIS
[11:38] <delphine> and then THOUGHTS & COMMENTS
[11:38] <delphine> where I want to put the comments we already had in the group
[11:38] <effeietsanders> lyzzy: for basic tables you can use excel2wiki.net
[11:38] <delphine> and invite people to comment in turn
[11:39] <Jon____> that sounds good.  do we want people to contribute ideas on meta in "Thoughts and Comments" or by editing the table itself?
[11:39] <Austin> Wikifying the matrix is easy enough; I can do that
[11:39] <effeietsanders> will we agree that one person/group only will edit the table?
[11:39] <delphine> Jon____: I think we can do both
[11:39] <delphine> that is why I advised to have somewhere a starting matrix
[11:39] <delphine> so that we can see the evolution
[11:40] <delphine> but if we start by saying, you can't edit
[11:40] <Jon____> If we have people editing the table, can we structure it in a way that shows alternatives, rather than having 'one right answer' which changes back and forth depending on who was last to edit it?
[11:40] <lyzzy> austin: cool, please do so
[11:40] <delphine> Jon____: difficult
[11:40] <delphine> very difficult
[11:40] <delphine> yeah Austin thanks :)
[11:40] <Austin> Yeah, that's not really doable
[11:41] <effeietsanders> will this be the table that is going to be split up in pieces more and more?
[11:41] <Jon____> I think we will need to be able to capture different and conflicting points of view, or it may become a mess, right/
[11:41] <Jon____> ?
[11:41] <Austin> I'm only committing to putting what's in the google doc in more or less the same format (with colors and things) on the wiki; someone else can get creative if he wants. ;)
[11:41] <Austin> Jon: I agree that's needed, but it'll have to be in a different format due to the limits of both wikitext and html
[11:41] <Jon____> Fair enough
[11:42] <Austin> I'll start with transcluding the matrix and we can see what we can shoehorn in
[11:43] <Jon____> It might be better in Berlin if we can say, "this is a tough question, and reasonable people disagree on the answer, so we would like an open discussion" than if we say "here is our recommendation, please knock it down, which others have already been doing"
[11:44] <Jon____> Talking of Berlin, it would be good to touch on that as well before we close at noon GMT
[11:44] <Austin> We don't want too many open questions, though
[11:44] <effeietsanders> maybe lets just see how things go
[11:44] <effeietsanders> and get back to the question of how to do the table next week?
[11:44] <Jon____> I agree.  We don't want to open questions.  But if people open questions that we cannot close, we'd do better to reflect that than try to shut it down
[11:45] <Jon____> Is this not germane to how to do the table for next week?
[11:45] <Jon____> Can we construct the table so that when people disagree, it can be reflected rather than supressed?
[11:46] <Austin> Well, we're already revisiting the "all greens" bits, right?
[11:46] <Jon____> Exactl
[11:46] <Jon____> Exactly
[11:46] <Austin> We can add little flags on certain points for discussion
[11:47] <effeietsanders> footnotes :)
[11:47] <Austin> Right
[11:47] <Jon____> So people feel that their views have been included not exclued
[11:47] <Austin> For now, I'll move the remaining comments along with everything else, and we can consolidate those into footnotes later
[11:48] <Austin> And anyone can add others later
[11:49] <Jon____> On the Berlin meeting, James Owen is working on  meeting room for 24th, and accommodation for the night of 23rd for those who will be there
[11:49] <lyzzy> sounds ok, it is bettere to start with something we are still working on than not to start at all
[11:51] <dami_hun> James might want to check in with Nicole on the meeting room; we might have the venue already for a press conference and one extra room might be available (thus MR people could get a sneak preview at the venue :)
[11:51] <lyzzy> Jon____: ok, i have informed pavel at monday, so everything is going it's way
[11:52] <Jon____> Sounds good, Bence.  Does James know Nicole?
[11:52] <Jon____> Thanks, Alice
[11:53] <effeietsanders> yeah, i think it would be good to be as much as possible in the same location as a movement
[11:53] <dami_hun> I am sure they somehow met in their work (e.g. at last years' board meeting in Berlin)
[11:53] <dami_hun> (nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de)
[11:53] <Jon____> On attendance in Berlin, we have 12 confirmed attending, plus 3 invited who may join if their chapter sends them, too
[11:56] <Asaf> I'll be there.
[11:56] <Jon____> That makes 13.  Great!
[11:57] <effeietsanders> dami_hun: i assume you handle the invitations to the chapters meeting for the non-chaprep's on the movement roles group?
[11:58] <Asaf> And I know Abbas has been selected by the Kenyan Wikimedians as one of their representatives.
[11:58] <Jon____> Yes, Abbas has also confirmed
[11:58] <Asaf> Are we wrapping up?
[11:59] <Jon____> Not sure if we are finished on point 2, although we've covered points 1 and 2
[11:59] <dami_hun> effeistanders: as far as inviting them to the venue and making sure they have badges etc.; travel and accommodation is through James
[11:59] <Jon____> Delphine, how are we on the matrix?
[11:59] <Jon____> I think we have covered the notes and the Berlin meeting
[11:59] <delphine> well, if Austin does the wiki bit
[11:59] <delphine> and others actually answer my email :)
[11:59] <delphine> we're good so far
[12:00] <delphine> I don't see this as a huge thing in itself
[12:00] <Austin> Already started, although I have a physiotherapist appointment in an hour and may not be done until tonight.
[12:00] <delphine> as long as we don't impose anything
[12:01] <delphine> once it is published though
[12:01] <delphine> the challenge will be to keep the conversation going
[12:02] <Austin> That's the real work, yeah
[12:02] <Jon____> Delphine, so that means you need a response to your email from SJ, Anirudh, Barry, Alice, and me
[12:02] <Jon____> Is that right?
[12:02] <delphine> not all
[12:02] <delphine> but some would be nice :)
[12:03] <Jon____> :-D
[12:03] <delphine> I consider that lyzzy has given some kind of an answer ;)
[12:03] <delphine> at least she's said she was looking for a wiki table expert, so she's read my email!
[12:03] <delphine> anyway
[12:03] <delphine> what I really want to prevent
[12:04] <delphine> is nobody reacting now
[12:04] <delphine> and once the email is out
[12:04] <Jon____> I will send you a response
[12:04] <delphine> suddenly a flurry of comments from the MR group
[12:04] <delphine> you know, Sj style
[12:04] <delphine> ok
[12:04] <Jon____> We're now 4 minutes over our hour
[12:04] <Jon____> So, I think we have covered each of the three points: notes, next action and Berlin meeting
[12:05] <Jon____> is there anything else that we need to cover before wrapping up?
[12:05]  * aklempert loves these productive meetings that do end when they were supposed to end :)
[12:06] <Jon____> If not we can look forward to picking up again at 2000 UTC next Friday
[12:07] <delphine> yep :)
[12:07] <Austin> Sounds good
[12:08] <Jon____> Great.  So let's adjourn and meeting again at 2000 UTC on Friday 11th Feb
[12:08] <Jon____> Thanks, everyone for another fruitful meeting
[12:08] <aklempert> thank you, Jon
[12:10] == Asaf [6d42296d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.66.41.109] has quit [Quit: Page closed]