Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Samogitian Wikipedia

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The result of the following proposal for closing a WMF project is to KEEP the project. Please, do not modify this page.

The following discussion is closed: no need to keep this one lingering... it's obvious where this is going. Seb az86556 17:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it.

I propose that the Samogitian Wikipedia be closed.

Samogitian language is rarely called a language. Usually it is called "dialect"[1] or "a group of dialects"[2]. Samogitian does not have a standard grammar or vocabulary, grammar and vocabulary of different Samogitian dialects is different.

Since the universally agreed standard Samogitian is not existing (although there are some discussions about it [3]), the whole project seems to be directed at creating some unified Samogitian language, however based on original research.

The main institution working on preservation of Samogitian language does not advocate creating a unified standard Samogitian language [4]. Literature in Samogitian is usually in a local dialect, which are sometimes grouped into "Northern" and "Southern".[5]

Samogitian dialects are recognized by the state, however, with no intention to create a standard language again, only to foster local dialects.[6]

The project has a weak user base, its most active member seems to be non-speaker, therefore unable to write normal articles. As a result the most of the articles are about different localities, dates, semiautomatically translated and oversimplified ([7] or [8], which is typical example - a locality with no population is described).

To make a conclusion a Samogitian language as a standard language is not existing and the Wikipedia in this language is generally a large original reseach project driven by 1-2 users.--dirgela 11:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Samogitian Wikipedia community is informed.--dirgela 19:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

P.S. you informed in bad place - not in community - if not good job of administrators we even be no notified about closing. One point to our administrators :D Zordsdavini 19:07, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Support[edit]

1. Support It's no use letting this project exist when there is only one active user-administrator. Also, Samogitian pseudo-language is already dead. There is no official grammar of samogitian language which makes it ineligible to be called language. I don't think anyone could precisely define what is the samogitian language\dialect as it's very diverse. I mean a lot of regions have their own understanding and rules of samogiatian, and we cant actually even localise where exactly this samogiatian dialect (in which samogitian wikipedia is written) is localized. And therefore this project should be closed due to the existing doubts of its need etc. Tomreves 15:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

You are lying: there is ~3 active administrators; Samogitian isn't dead (or you killed many people) [9][10]; there is official book (and web page) how to write in Samogitian [11]; it is mentioned in community what it use North dialect; there is no doubts about its need - I got meny letters, press writes about it [12]. Other things you tell in abstraction form or without source. Zordsdavini 19:22, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Comment: Most of these concerns are irrelevant with regards to this proposal. Whether or not Samogitian is a language has already been decided by wikimedia's language commitee, and the result was that it is, and therefore that it is eligible. Such personal likes or dislikes, or possible ambiguities with respect to the precise scope of the project do not constitute sufficient cause for a closure. Seb az86556 19:37, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Contra comment. I would dare to disagree with you. It's not up to Wikimedia's language committee to decide what should be called language. Also vote is quite of date. These members voted in favor would not be happy with the current situation. A new vote should be initiated.
These members should have at least read the english article about samogitian language which clearly states that samogitian is a dialect which failed to be standardized. These were several attempts to standardize it throughout two centuries. It also says, and I quote „The Samogitian dialect is rapidly declining: it is not used in the local school system and there is only one quarterly magazine and no television broadcasts in Samogitian. There is some radio broadcast in Samogitian (in Klaipėda and Telšiai). Local newspapers and broadcast stations use standard Lithuanian instead. There is no new literature in Samogitian either, as authors prefer standard Lithuanian for its accessibility to a larger audience. Out of those people who speak Samogitian only a few can understand its written form well. Migration of Samogitian speakers to other parts of the country and migration into Samogitia have reduced contact between Samogitian speakers, and therefore the level of fluency of those speakers.” So, no up-to-date literature, no fluent speakers, almost no media in samogitian. The bald sentence says it all. There is a minority of samogitians who can read it. Tomreves 20:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
More invalid concerns. There are hundreds of languages with limited literacy rates. That does not mean that the literate part of a society must be barred from writing a wikipedia. Seb az86556 22:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
As I understand Tomreves was created only for this purpose and have no info. I don't understand who is he and from what country (I guess from Lithuania Proper). You (Tomreves) write about Samogitian as they are all dead (500000 people). OK, Samogitian is declining but not so much. All these writings about Samogitian in other language are quit subjective because of such people like you. There are more Lithuanians than Samogitians so it is clear what Lithuanians win this information propaganda war. Now about your arguments - they are trolls. How can you say what there is no television broadcasts if National television there is ethnic broadcasts and there speaks in Samogitian (sometimes with subtitles!!!). How can you say what there is no lessons for Samogitian if I already write two times about lessons as additional lesson in Samogitian? Have You read? Mostly local newspapers have section for Samogitians („Telšių žinios“, „Penktadienio žemaitis“, „Vakarų ekspresas“ etc.), internet monthly newspaper „Samogitia“ [13] (in the left side there). No books? „So meilė tievėške“, 2008 [14], even „Taislius augyminis“ 2009 has been released (written in XIX c. begining) (this more for scientists) [15]. And there is many authors who writes today in Samogitian (especially poetry) [16][17] [18](this author don't write in Lithuanian as she is from Latvia and had no lessons in Lithuanian). About migration: if you were (lived) in Telšē in young days and you spoke in Lithuanian you should got many problems, you should be called gay (I don't want to hurt somebody but it is from practice). After all I live in Lithuania Proper for 8 years and meets many people from Samogitia who lives here for 50 year and still spreaks in Samogitian. And worst thing there will not be any people in Lithuania at all after 50 years because of emigration. About reading: 1st time you just look at book, 2nd you try to read in voice, 3rd - you understand. Only practice needed. And for the end: why Samogitians hurts you? Why you try to make conflict? Have you any instructions from the east to make it? Who are you what you want to delete 12000 articles and hard work of 4 year? Language or dialect it is not so important as in EU it would have minor language status? And you want or not but Samogitians will declare themselves as Samogitians and speak in their speech NOW or LATER. Zordsdavini 06:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
How dare you say that I was created only to vote here, that is absolutely inappropriate to say such ridiculous things. Interesting what National Commission of Lithuanian language would have to say. Lithuanian language itself is in danger, and various dialect encouraged to use by you mister, only worsen the situation. I say that because I know from my experience that Samogitians who come into Lithuanian speaking environment fail to speak Lithuanian normally. But that's offtopic, sorry. And these newspapers and books you have mentioned are probably in local dialects.
OK, I will try to stress some facts.
Firstly, if you look at this page of samogitian wikipedia statistics, especially in the section called „25 recently active wikipedians, excl. bots, ordered by number of contributions”, you would see that there are no other active users in there except of 3 three administrators some of whom are not native samogitian speakers. Wikimedia projects cannot be used as a place of individual activity by some group of people. So as far as there are no active users, the project should be closed.
Secondly, the 2 votes of those opposing are such two administrators of samogitian wikipedia: Hugo.arg and Zordsdavini.
Thirdly, there are cases when wikipedias of more stable dialects and languages were closed. see the Proposals for closing projects/Archive.
Finally, as User:Diregela said, Samogotian is too unstable dialect. I mean it has a lot of other subdialects, but none of them are documented well. Dirgela's request should be approved, as it's the only choice we have. Tomreves 07:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

The Samogitian wikipedia is very active if you compare it with most of wikipedias where the main "contributors" are bots and spamers. As I mentioned, the big part of wikipedias are created by non native speakers (Latin, Esperanto, Quechua, Nahuatl, bunch of African wikipedias). If you will look more carefuly to the list you gave, you'll see than only these wikipedias was deleted which has totally no content and no users (some African and American languages). If you will see, wikipedia contains projects in Serbian/Serbohorvatian/Croatian/Bosnian language(s) which differs between each other by few letters or words per whole article, also a Montenegrin wikipedia is now at discussion stage. If all of things would be by your reasoning now wikipedia would have projects in no more than 100 languages becouse others are "not active enough" or "worthless dialects". Hugo.arg 14:06, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I like arguments, thank You :) I dare to say what You created only for this purpose as I looked at your contributions and saw nothing. In LT wikipedia I didn't find such user (may be misspelled). Lets starts.
Firstly fact: Yes, it sad what now people don't find time to work here. Very big Thanks to Hugo for administrating during that time. If you look at history - there was already such times. It is like wave. But why you say it is only some people group project? Have they did any research without teaching each other how to write. All learnings came from book „Žemaičių rašyba“ and practice, vocabulary from life. We want to keep nice Samogitian words and away from Lithuanian influence of such words "siela", "gražuolė", so we made vocabulary. But I can say why was made this project (as I started it). Wikipedia is very good place to make bigger popularity of our language and it does this work. The main purpose is to say to the Samogitians what there IS writing. I guess about 20 people find Samogitian as writing language and learned it and many many had found as it is.
Secondly fact: I didn't understand this. I am as person who started and Hugo.arg as main administrator now. Please explain more what you wanted to say here. Should we to stay away from this?
Finally fact: This fact has truth but I disagree with stability as we write in one dialect and we follow official Samogitian writing system (in future I'll try to change it and make different tabs for dialects as dialect from other differs in direct way). But I don't understand why it should be closed. You could say - make clear all articles, make such tabs (it is in my future plans). The main thing is that what project is not dead (as Samogitians, too). Zordsdavini 10:02, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

2. Support Samogitian Wikipedia is not real Wikipedia, is "bots' project" with VERY SHORT articles and Samogitian language has got three dialects: North, South and West. And all they are different. So isn't real "Samogitian" language. And this Wikipedia has got two "real" users.Rokaszil 10:25, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

    1. You have old information. West Samogitians dialect (dōnėninkā) (they don't treat themselves as Samogitians from the ethnic side) is extint (there are may be 100 old people or less). South Samogitians (dūnėninkā) mostly speaks in Lithuanian with Samogitian accent, except Varnėškē (half of South dialect to north side). Varnėškē speaks like Telšėškē (east part of North dialect), except some fonetics differences (ou -> ū etc.). As I understand you haven't learn about it at school and you are from proper Lithuania (Vilnius), so differences may look big on science book but as we have only 1 variant - this is not the case. But you should understand our problem: you are administrator of Fulfulde: 55 articles, many dialects, half of edits (or more) are bots, people in Africa don't have computers or literacy is too less. We have >12000 articles and do you think we both could write so many Zordsdavini 12:44, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
      1. Yes, i know that Fulfulde wikipedia is one of the worst wikipedias. But 50 millions (!) of people speak this language. Are about 500 000 samogitians. And all samogitians speak lithuanian too. But africans can't speak french or english so they need Fulfulde Wikipedia. Rokaszil 13:56, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
        1. Yes, it is big community but who writes. We made 12000 articles during 4 year. It was really hard work as people from Samogitia there are 100 times less than Fulfuldes with 55 articles. Your argument about possibility to speak in different language and forgot mother language is confused to me. As you speak in English but you are Lithuanian, can you forgot your language and smash Lithuanian with ground? I can't do it, I love Samogitian very much (but I live in Vilnius as you). So, strike out your opposition and lets live in peace. Zordsdavini 14:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
          1. To Zordsdravini: I am Lithuanian from born and I with parents ussualy drive with car to Nida and Klaipėda. And I never saw note with samogitian language. Rokaszil 14:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
            1. Samogitian doesn't have any official recognition from government. You couldn't see anything :D I think it is because of Polish part in east Lithuania. If we get any recognition - Polish people will have argument. After all it is not argument. Zordsdavini 15:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

3. Support - Samogitian dialect is not written language, it is only spoken language. It is not even determined in which letters it should be written.--Pėstininkas 14:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

    1. There is official recognized alphabet [19]. You know about Samogitian nothing. Zordsdavini 14:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Volapuk speaks about 30 people, Icelandic - 300.000, Navajo - 150.000, Manx - 1.600, Cornish - 2.000. So let's delete them all, because people who speaks in these languages also knows English, am I right? Hugo.arg 14:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
No, icelandics don't speak english (!) and icelandic language is estabilished in Iceland. Samogitian language is not estabilished in Lithuania and almost aren't real Samogitians and they fastly dissapear. Rokaszil 14:36, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
1. (I deleted part of note, written by my serious mistake.) For comparison: Confusingly big part of Irish speaks Eglish. (Some of them don't understand Irish). But it in no way means, that irish wikipedia should be deleted. 2. Many times I used translate or use information from Samogitian wikipedia (or from other sources in Samogitian) rather then from Lithuanian wikipedia. (I'm writing articles about Lithuanian/Samogithian themes in Czech wikipedia. So I personally need information from Samogitian wikipedia very much. 3. Many languages are NOT ESTABLISHED in any country/state. The number of these languages are bigger than those, which are established somewhere. I call it as part of genocide. --Kusurija 19:14, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Please give at least one argument what Samogitians fastly dissapear. And what is real Samogitian? If I declare myself as Samogitian then I am or you disagree with Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 15: „1. Everyone has the right to a nationality; 2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.“[20] (writen by zordsdavini) 07:20, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
It's pity you did not know anything about human rights during that serious conflict in lt_wikipedia which resulted in you losing your administrator rights. Tomreves 15:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I know much about human right. I guess it was not for me. Zordsdavini 07:20, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

In fact, it's Rokas' statement and I doubt that primary school student would seriously discuss about any rights. And enough with your rubbish "human rights" propaganda here are discussed other things. You can create lgbt-wiki and there speak loudly about "human rights". Hugo.arg 15:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Do you think that you yourself are qualified to talk about that?Tomreves 16:01, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
"aren't real Samogitians". Tell it loudly in the center of Telšiai, Mažeikiai or Skuodas :) Hugo.arg 15:06, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Lithuanians say: "Užsispyręs kaip žemaitis"... And it's a good phrase. Rokaszil 15:19, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

And so? Hugo.arg 15:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
This phrase kills all standards because everyone want to have his dialect as main dialect, so today grammar is best choice for now :( Zordsdavini 07:20, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

4. Support Some users from Samogitian wiki don't even know difference between dialect and language, between nationality and ethnic subgroup. There are no nation "Samogitian", this is just group of Lithuanian nationality actually. The main reason why I support deletion of this wikipedia, its because there are no stable Samogitian dialect. In every "Samogitian" village, its sounds different and that are Samogitian dialect is totally different than "the same" dialect somewhere in other part of the area. Even it Samogitian wiki, mostly every day there is edits of changing names of and in articles of various things. This dialect its so limited, that all articles is very small, many of them its just 4-6 sentences.--Xraig 11:50, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

As I said above "everyone has right" to declare himself and to speak in his language. There is no limits as first science book in Lithuania was written in Samogitian, not in Lithuanian. [21] Zordsdavini 12:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

5. Support --Federeris 13:34, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

6. Support It is a dialect which does not have official and concrete grammar. More over only several enthusiastic people made contribution to this project, therefore it just became playground for them with no meaning to spread knowledge to other Samogitian ... --Atlantas 18:24, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

You think that only several people made contribution to this project? There are 10 people who have done more than 500 edits. Is it not enough for a project with 12 000 articles? --Wisconsus 08:43, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

7. Support Juokinga ta žematiška wikipedija, net už pipediją juokingesnė... --PostFactum 20:00, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Translation? Seb az86556 21:50, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Translation: This Samogitian Wikipedia is funny, even more than Pipideja (Lithuanian wiki based comedy project).--Atlantas 07:19, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

8. Support Everyone (and I mean everyone) who speaks so called Samogitian "language" also speaks Lithuanian and always looks up for information at Lithuanian wikipedia. Samogitian wikipedia is just a hobby project with no practical uses whatsoever. The only people who need it are the ones who write there. It's like writing wikipedia in Swiss German (Zurich canton dialect) - nice hobby, nothing more. --Windom 07:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

No, You are not right. There is Samogitians in Latvia who lives near Lithuania. They can even see Lithuanian television but they don't do it because they don't understan Lithuanian!!! Sure there are so little such population but it shows how Samogitians understands Lithuanian if they don't have contacts with it from young day. Zordsdavini 07:34, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia mission is to spread knowledge. There is way too little resources who write-in that free-of-charge knowledge. I never remember a case when I found the answer in non english pages. The time spent to write articles in very narrow dialect could be spent instead to write to all people able to read in Lithuanian, not to very few who are interested in that dialect.

As this issue is more political than rational, I believe not the voting but simple statistics must be the reason to close it. If there are more writters than readers (no spreading of knowledge) - close it, and ask for writers to write in Lithuanian, so much more people can use their valuable work. If there are lot of readers/users (lot of knowledge shared) - leave it. No politics. I am Lithuanian, from Samogitia, and my parents still speak mixed samogitian/Lithuanian. But we much more care about Lithuanian language survival... also some older people do not understand English so Lithuanian pages are valuable resources for them.

I don't see purpose to write in Lithuanian if I could tread Samogitian mother tongue - I can do it one more time with Lithuanian. I would write in English or Esperanto (after 50 year may be in Chines). But if you want people from Samogitian to write in Lithuanian wiki - you don't have to do anything because they do it already. And what does it meen "lot of knowledge shared" - some texts in native language is more expensive than thousands article in different language but I don't say what knowledge base are needless - it is very important but not the only criteria. (there are more thoughts then disagrees). Zordsdavini 07:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

9. Support I myself am from Samogitia region, all I can say about Samogitian, that it is a Dialect of lithuanian language, it is no way a different language (similar to British English and Irish English). We have several different dialects in Lithuania, and neither of them, except Samogitian, wants to call itself a language. I myself clearly understand and speak Samogitian and other dialects, and thought of Samogitian wiki project as a joke. Now I am glad hearing about this effort of closing Samogitian wikipedia.--Ketanov

British English and Irish English example not so similar. May be Russian and Ukrainian or Danish and Swedish could be examples. But how should differences be treated? How to understand how it is big :) Everything belongs from self recognition. And you said "neither of them, except Samogitian, wants to call itself a language". So, this part is clear but why you treat this project as joke? May be it is the same joke as Samogitians want to call Samogitian as language? Zordsdavini 05:46, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

10. Support Why is this dialect only a dialect that have its own version on Wikipedia. I think most people that speaks Samogitian can speak Lithuanian too. --125.25.52.87 21:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

11. Support: One cannot judge on this issue without a context of separatist movement being inspired in Lithuania. Despite the fact that Samogitian language and Samogithian nation has never existed before, you can now witness attempts at creating this kind of new identity. It is not just about creating the new Samogitian “language”. A group of marginal activists in Lithuania, claiming that they represent a much broader community, established Samogitian parliament, Samogitian party, and even demanded that Samogitians are acknowledged as a nation.
One cannot also avoid the fact that during national elections voters in the regions where Samogitians marginalists are most active tend to support such political figures as the impeached former president R.Paksas and K.Prunskiene who is well-known because of her ties with the KGB and its former operatives. This raises serious question if the whole separatist movement is not under patronage of those agencies that has no interest in a united, stronger and less corrupt democracy in Lithuania. So this is a political issue and it touches a very sensitive aspect of Lithuanian integrity.

In fact, Samogitia means just “lowlands” and Samogitians are an integral part of Lithuanian nation. There is no Samogitians language but Samogitian dialects only. The new language is an artificial project that uses these dialects to combine them into a new vocabulary. Samogitian Wikipedia is written not in any of those dialects but in a lexicon that is currently in the process of being artificially drafted. There is no natural need for this new lexicon as all Samogitians are Lithuanians and they can speak normative Lithuanian language taught at Lithuanian schools – also at Lithuanian schools abroad.
An example of Samogitians who cannot presumably understand Lithuanian because they live in the neighbouring Latvia is not serious (if not ridiculous) as an argument. They must be assimilated as Latvians whose ancestors were Lithuanians – that is the only plausible explanation to it. Moreover, Latvian and Lithuanian languages are similar and there are plenty of cases when Latvians and Lithuanians learn to speak freely each other’s language in a year. Thus the argument with those Latvians-Samogitians points to a truly marginal exception.

One of the possible explanations why such activities that aim at creating more fragmented Lithuania find their supporters among its inhabitants could be attributed to some cultural tendency developed probably in the Soviet times and adopted by many, especially by the national linguists. This tendency has made them worship local dialects with parochial culture and develop phobic defensive attitudes towards foreign languages which they considered to be the source of danger to the future of Lithuanian language. A certain degree of xenophobia in language politics and switch to parochial loyalty could double-stimulate separatist provincial sentiments.

Oppose[edit]

  1. Oppose User:Dirgėla for personal reasons are against me and Samogitian is just one of his ways to oppose me. Actually, Samogitian language is now pending for ISO code and may be successful as Latgalian. Yes, there are multiple ways to write Samogitian but we use the Northern dialect and the official writing which is used by various local magazines. Yes, now we haven't lot of users but project is maintained well. My level of Samogitian is good, I myself am half Samogitian from father's side. We have native speakers and they help in discussions about writing. In this logic then let's close Quechua wikipedia which is created by two Germans, or Latin, or Esperanto where native speakers even don't exist. Calling a language original research is totally nonsense because any language is "original research" by people who speaks it. They do not look to encyclopedias or language commissions how to speak. Volapuk wikipedia is a project made by one linguist and still after long battles it exist. IMO, there is nothing more to discuss here. Hugo.arg 07:43, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
  2. Oppose Is it a joke? --Wisconsus 10:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
  3. Oppose I don't see any valid reason for this request. Seb az86556 10:52, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
  4. Oppose This WAR in wikipedia between Lithuanians and Samogitians begans to be unacceptable. As Dirgela is Lithuanian he is VERY subjective. So am I as I'm Samogitian but I'll try calmly describe situation:
    1. From the begining of XX c. Lithuanians began erase Samogitian as nation. Situation was not so easy because we had (and have) same enemies and our newly independent Lithuania had 2.5 mln citizens. After 20 year, in ~1936 Samogitians again (first Samogitian book was in XVIII c.) started to write in their language. Even main father of Lithuanian language Jonas Jablonskis (he wrote grammar for today Lithuanian) suggest to create standard Samogitian as Lithuanian to much different for writers. But WW2 destroyed everything and after USSR occupation with politic to remove all "dialects" made so big harm to Samogitian, so much was forgotten what in 1990 years Samogitians reinvented (because was already forgotten) standards for writing in Samogitian. Standards was the same as in 1940. So, this is the history. Today Lithuanian politic are the same as in USSR in mind. Lithuanians (such as Dirgela) don't understand wish of small nation to be themselves.
    2. Yes, we don't have clear grammar, but standards we have [22]. Grammar is just question of time and there is less or more discussions about it between Samogitians. Even in Samogitian politic parties main programs it is writen [23][24]. About usage of Samogitian, ex. in Skuodas politics speaks in Samogitian during sessions [25].
    3. There is try to get ISO code [26]. When it will be - Linux will be in Samogitian and many more things.
    4. The biggest problem is schools - there is no Samogitians schools. Everything is teaching in Lithuanian. There is some tries to teach Samogitian writing in some schools but mostly Samogitians don't know how to write. Lithuania are still retarded for 50 years in such culture as it is West Europe. But I got letters from Samogitians for support.
    5. Dirgela's comments:
      1. "grammar and vocabulary of different Samogitian dialects is different" - it is not constructed language, so small vocabulary differences are worthless, the same and with grammar. All languages passed standardization process.
      2. "the whole project seems to be directed at creating some unified Samogitian language, however based on original research." - project is based on north dialect of Samogitian language but if you want to read it south - change all "ou" into "ū" and "ėi" into "ī" - not so big problem, even if there will be standard "ů, ë" for these differences it will be done easy. Now project is based on today Samogitian writing standard [27]
      3. [4] link is bad - this is not main institution working on preservation of Samogitian language and article is thoughts not decision. In 1998 I remember was many thoughts from such area and there is one of them. This institution is main Samogitian books publisher.
      4. "Samogitian dialects are recognized by the state, however, with no intention to create a standard language again" - yes and with try to erase it from our life. As I said above, there are politic parties what are trying to make standard language (and many non politics).
      5. [7] and [8] links: this is encyclopedia and I guess to write something needful (place, count of inhabitants and so on) is better than nothing.
    6. Epilogue: if there will be decision to close Samogitian - before should be closed wikipedias (as the similar situation and less than 12000 articles): Walloon, Ripuarian, Tarantino, Venetian, Alemannic, Limburgian, Võro, Dutch Low Saxon, West Flemish, Bavarian, Norman, Scots, Friulian, Ligurian, Kashubian, Franco-Provençal/Arpitan, Pennsylvania German, Silesian, Saterland Frisian, Erzya, Extremaduran and many more with less then 1000 articles.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zordsdavini (talk)
    Your comments just reinforce my argument: there are some "political" reasons to have a Samogitian wikipedia, there is neither standard grammar, nor standard vocabulary. "Standards" you have mentioned are not standards, but mere "some ideas" how it could look. Samogitian is not thought in schools for the very same reason - there is no way to write any book for these schools, because there is no standard Samogitian. It could be read by many Samogitians and even by Lithuanians as well, because there are not that many differences, therefore telling that we can call Northern Samogitian dialect a "Samogitian language", because others can read it anyway is not serious. The personal attacks are just funny, because I am Samogitian myself. So again - the project is not "Wikipedia in Samogitian language" but "Attempt to create Samogitian language by some people", therefore it has no place in here.--dirgela 14:36, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
    What does it mean standard grammar? Grammar what will be sign by government? I don't beleave what such times will be here in Lithuania. president Paksas tried to make 4 regions in Lithuania and what was? He lost everything. But I'm not politic, so let's discus calmly :) Again, what is grammar? In linguistics, grammar is the set of structural rules that govern the composition of sentences, phrases, and words in any given natural language [28]. I know what „Žemaičių rašyba“ (ISBN: 998692071X) is in very light form as grammar. I don't know why but many Samogitians holds it as grammar [29] (at the end). But if you are Samogitian (I don't beleave but "love from hate only one step") and if already read this book you really could write without mistakes. May be you know what all possible variants of Samogitian has only 6 (and ~4 using today) forms of "grammars" what are different in some letters (I even thought to make Samogitian wikipedia with tabs for each variant, ex. ou -> ū etc.). So, you can't say what we don't have grammar. And I guess you haven't seen any Samogitian book!!! ex. one of the bes poetry book copy in Internet [30]. After all at school Samogitian writing is teached in some schools [31]. And I'm not making here any politcs - Samogitians are [32][33][34]. And please give any normal arguments, not such "Samogitian is not thought in schools", "there is no way to write any book for these schools", "others can read it" (I can read in many languages and what? They are dialects of Samogitian? Belarus don't have any differences at all, scots/english etc.) as these arguments are nonsense. (don't be angry on me, but you are not Samogitian if you are: „nie tas vel's tuoks baisos, kuoki anō maliavuo“). Zordsdavini 18:52, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
    Forget standarts, Normand wikipedia is written in 4 dialects at every page, Quechua is written in one of dialects, Nahuatl is written in one of dialects, most European minority languages do not have any standart and are writen by one of the dialects. Hugo.arg 07:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
    That ir the typical "original research" attitude - if it does not exist - let's invent it. Here is a map for your attention [35] from European Bureau for Lesser-Used Languages, which by surprise does not know about Samogitian language. Again - it seems that certain "languages" only exist in Wikipedia, because they are not languages by any other standards.--dirgela 09:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
    In this map there is no many languages but if you want something from EU: [36] (58 p.). And who is guilt what there is no many papers about Samogitian? I think there will be time when Samogitian will be officially recognized as regional language. And how you can close eyes on so many writings in Samogitian and say what only wikipedia wrotes? Have you heard about Samogitian only from here? Have you read first writing in Samogitian only here? Zordsdavini 12:03, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
  5. Oppose Algirdas
  6. Oppose Samogitian language is unique and important in uderstanding all Baltic languages. Samogitian language is a bridge between Lithuanian and Latvian languages. Samogitian Wikipedia must remain and develop. Pleckaitis 12:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
  7. Oppose This project is very important for Samogitian people. I would offer to close Lithuania Wikipedia, if Samogitian Wikipedia would be closed, because I could also make an ill reference, that Lithuanian language is a dialect of Polish language! Samogitia 12:58, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
  8. Oppose. Lithuanian language has two Child Dialect Groups: (see]) Aukštaičių and Žemaičių. Current oficial Lithuanian language is based on Aukštaičių Child Dialect Group of Lithuanian language. This two Child Dialect Groups has many differences. Samogitian language or Child Dialect Group is unique and important in uderstanding all Baltic languages. --Vpovilaitis apt. 16:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
  9. Oppose --Rtz 17:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
  10. Oppose --Lazdynas 04:26, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  11. Oppose --PoVas 04:59, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  12. Oppose It is much easyer for a Samogitian person to write in its own language. It is easyer for me to write in Samogitian, thank in Lithuanian. Samogitian Wikipedia is a good project, which is developing good. I have no cons, just pros. Olgerts.smg 08:08, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
    Olgerts, I think that you are Algirdas clone. Rokaszil 08:39, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  13. Oppose ~ Mea 08:12, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  14. Oppose --Homo 12:05, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  15. Oppose: It looks to me very strange what there is such purpose to close Samogitian wikipedia. May be it is because of no normative writing. If you look from history then there would no reason to publish "Aušra" of J.Basanavičius or "Vilniaus žinios" of P.Vileišis because on that time there was no Lithuanian normative writing and there were less people writing in it. Even Basanavičius himself in his diary wrote in Polish... But look what we got - people began to write newspapers, began to read or write and after there was need to have normative writing and so on.
    By this example I want to show what if you steel from language possibility for evolution of writing (in newspapers or wikipedias) then people will not write and evolution of language will stop and it will never get time for standartization. As Lithuanian was not standardized from the begining, samogitians should have the same rules. Don't prevent people from writing and this language will reach time of its standardization! Cyrulis 13:37, 3 June 2010 (UTC)Cyrulis
  16. Oppose --Zirzilia
  17. Oppose destructive authoritative proposal, which is based on the view contrary to the values of wikipedia --Negudras
  18. Oppose --Rencas 17:20, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  19. Oppose ----Goro! 18:29, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  20. Oppose I can confirm that there is Samogitian language. 62.212.207.222 19:04, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  21. Oppose I can confirm that there is Samogitian language. I'm translating parts of information from this language to articles in Czech wikipedia. And I need such information not only from extra-wiki sources, but from Samogitian wikipedia too. I personally think, that this "Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Samogitian Wikipedia" is unneeded animosity an trolling.--Kusurija 19:33, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
  22. Oppose Ta-Ntalas 10:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
  23. Oppose Satamas 19:04, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
  24. Oppose Dancing Raccoon. Why would you want to close it anyway? Does it distract people or something?
  25. Oppose I am not an active reader of the Samogitian wiki, however, I think that the benefits of its existence clearly outweigh the costs. Jogundas Armaitis 13:11, 6 June 2010 (UTC) .
  26. Oppose Aš nematau pateiktų pagrįstų Naudotojo Dirgėlos argumentų uždaryti žemaitišką Vikipediją. Nesvarbu ar kalba, ar dialektas - tai ne priežastis uždaryti Vikipediją (pvz. egzistuoja germaniškosios škotų "kalbos" Vikipedija, kurią daug kas drįstų vadinti anglų kalbos tarme). Lietuvių kalba buvo sunorminta tik XX a. Qirių kalba XX a. viduryje. Jei yra kūrėjai, turinys ir skaitytojas - žemaitiška Vikipedija yra reikalinga.
    (Je ne vois pas des arguments fondés d'Utilisateur Dirgela pour fermer le projet de Wikipédia samogitienne. N'importe c'est la langue où c'est un dialecte - ce n'est pas une raison de fermer Wikipédia (par exemple, il existe Wikipédia en "langue" scots, qui est souvent nommée le dialect d'anglais). La langue litunienne a été fixée juste au XXme siècle. La langue irlandaise au millieu de XXme siècle. Si il y a les créateurs, le contenu et des lecteurs - Wikipédia samogitienne est nécessaire.) Beje, Žemaitiškoje Vikipedijoje šiuo metu yra yra virš 12 tūkst. straipsnių... (Au fait, il y a maintenant plus de 12 mille articles dans Wikipédia...) -- Gandras 20:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
  27. Oppose Samogitian has an own language code. Meta-wiki is not the place to discuss the question whether Samogitian is an distinct language or not. That's original research. Please discuss this question with the linguists of Ethnologue. An existing project could be closed if it's inactive for a long period. Samogitian Wikipedia is definively an active project. That's it! --Holder 11:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
  28. Oppose - Lithuanians and Žemaitians (Samogitians) I want only to ask you -- if someone will dare/can to make 10 or 20 article project in Old Prussian or Yotwingian language, do someone like D-la will come and try to close that project????? Still nothing new under Lithuania's Sun. :-((( Some ugly politicking which accusing others in politicking... -- Mieli lietuviai ir žemaičiai, noriu tik paklausti, jei kas nors drįstų/pajėgtų padaryti 10 ar 20 straipsnelių projektą senovės prūsų ar jotvingių kalba, negi irgi išlįstų kažkoks D-la ir bandytų uždaryti tokį projektą????? Vis dar nieko naujo po Lietuvos padange :-((( Kažkoks bjaurus lietuviškas politikavimas, rėkiant, kad visi politikuoja... Gyvas 15:28, 7 June 2010
  29. Oppose This proposal sounds like nonsense. There is no real reasons to close it, especially if we don't close many smaller wikipedias, which is known as dialects, not separate languages. And also, for some people (like me, because I live far from Samogitia and there is no other resources of information in this dialect) reading Samogitian Wikipedia is the only way to get to know it. Well, if Dirgela's point was to attract more attention to this Wikipedia, he succeeded. Auksiner 19:57, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
  30. Oppose --Node ue 23:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
  31. Oppose I am totally against closure of Samogitian Wikipedia. If main argument for closing it is that it's written in Northern Samogitian dialect - then ok, another Wikipedia should be created in Southern Samogitian dialect :) And yes, I created account here specially to participate in this absurd voting, but if you doubt if I'm fake or not, check user Tviska in Lithuanian wikipedia. --Tviska 12:09, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
  32. Oppose It's interesting project, though it needs some development - but isn't it what all wikipedia's project about? If Samogitian wiki actually is northern Samogitian, then wouldn't it be better just rename it? Maybe later southern samogitians will create their oun wikipedia. Moreover, if existing of smaller dialects is the reason why Samogitian cannot be used in wikipedia, Lithuanian wikipedia also must be closed :D. Of course, this language still has no strict rules etc., but its using in articles is interesting from the prospect of linguistics, as we are used to see all dialects only in folklore. Samogitian language is really alive. For example, my roommate not only speaks, but also writes in Samogitian when she chats online with her samogitian friends. Finally, what's the harm of the existance of Samogitian wikipedia? --Vikte 15:37, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
  33. Oppose Žemaitė
  34. Oppose Flying Saucer 12:30, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
  35. Oppose Profcard. Of course NO!!! Don`t let this language (dialec) extinct. Licvidating Samogitian page is a' killing of etnoculture heritage of Europe.
  36. Oppose Samogitian is a language spoken in Lithuania. A similar situation exists between Latgalian and Latvian. Latgalian has 150,000 speakers and has its own ISO 639-3 code: ltg. Therefore after the ISO Code for Samogitian is successfully applied, it would have received International recognition as a language and this proposal for closure would lose all its legitimacy, if it ever had any. If native speakers of the language are willing to contribute to the Samogitian Wikipedia project in the long term, them they have the freedom to do so. --Jose77 08:56, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
  37. Oppose per Seb az(?) --Diego Grez return fire 21:29, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
  38. Oppose Iev
  39. Oppose wefo
  40. Oppose lean-toward support by a edge after reading CU results OpenTheWindows 10:03, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
  41. Oppose Samogitian is 'de facto' live language with strong history and support. Most probably it will become 'de jure' language in future. There are no strong arguments which should convince to destroy all the effort made, so, gentlemen, please keep being creative. If you feel the need to delete something, you can always start from the own account. LT language is going to extinct in next 200 years with all the dialects anyway (according to the latest demography stats). --Z 07:59, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
  42. Oppose in my opinion it should be closed soon as possible, because there is no logic in here!
  43. Oppose Dziugreb
  44. Oppose --Žalimas 19:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
  45. Oppose --zwieRys 19:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
  46. Oppose - ""Žemaitis Linis"" Kokiam ten "piliečiui/adminui" šovė mintis bent pagalvot apie uždarymą to kas YRA ir bandymą (nors ir netiesiogiai)neigti tai kas gali ir turi teisę egzistuoti. Žemaitiu wikipedėjė - TOR BŪTI! Kuriuo pakrašti žemaitis babūtom uns mokies skaityti žemaitišką! [Appr. translation of the comment: amazed at who would have thought about closing something that IS, can and has the right to exist; and stating Samogitian wiki is to be; and that Samogitian (from any region?) will be able to read in Samogitian; signed Samogitian Linis)]
  47. Oppose Prieštarauju uždarymui. Mokausi žemaičių kalbos kaiptik iš šio visada ir visur prieinamo šaltinio. Net jeigu kai kurie sugebat skųstis straipsnių kokybe - siūlyčiau prisidėti prie taisymo užuot pešimosi. Kas lengviau? Sutvarkyti jau esamą informacijos bazę ar viską pradėti nuo nulio? Net jeigu įvyks stebuklas ir žemaičių vikipedija bus uždaryta, žmonės visvien sukurs tokį pat šaltinį kaip šis. Leiskim žmonėms sužinoti daugiau apie savo kultūrą, kurios dalis yra ir žemaitija.
    I oppose closing. I am learning samogitian thanks to this readily available at any time resource. Even if some manage complain about the quality of the articles - I suggest putting your efforts into improving/editing instead of bickering over nonsense arguments. Which one is easier? Editing and polishing information that is already there or starting from scratch? If by some unexplainable magic wand this wikipedia gets deleted, people will still create another medium like this one. I say let people learn about their culture, of which samogitia is a part too.--MLajauskas 00:08, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
  48. Oppose It would be a great pity if Samogitian Wikipedia (or any Wikipedia project, for that matter) is closed based on its language "significance" as perceived by outsiders. If Samogitian Wikipedia is found by its editors worth investing their time, it should stay. Hopefully it will not take too much server power and bandwidth from the Wikpedia foundation.
  49. OpposeI am not Samogitian, but Highland Lithuanian (lith. aukštaitis), however I find the Samogitian Wikipedia extremely interesting, if only to see how people who recognise Samogitian as their mother tongue express their thoughts in writing in that language.
    That there is "no or little books/TV broadcast/periodics/schooling etc. in Samogitian" is, unfortunately, a self-fulfilling prophesy -- how can Samogitians have their written sources if even in the free world of Wikipedia their written word is suppressed?!
    In addition, in the Samogitian Wikipedia we witness a remarkable process going on -- a process of a dialect turning a full-fledged language. The unique features of Wikipedia -- its openness and ubiquitous accessibility -- make this happening and direct observation of this process possible. Why should we abandon such an interesting possibility?
    May I suggest that Wikipedia projects are kept unless they are completely inactive (no edits during a year or more)?
    Sincerelly yours, Saulius --195.2.210.5 06:22, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
  50. Oppose --Vēršana 08:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
  51. Oppose Man įdomi žemaičių kalba, todėl prieštarauju uždarymui. [I find Samogitian (language) interesting, therefore I object the closure.]
  52. Oppose I have never been involved in quarrels with individuals mentioned above and nor have I ever studied languages but I do oppose such a ridiculous proposal as it shall only satisfy atrabilous persons seeking the most disgraceful way of being even with their opponents. I have thoroughly examinated the altercation as well as argumentation provided by both supporters and opposers yet I have decided to support the aforesaid faction. Since the supporters claim Samogitian has no standard orthography and thus should not be representated by means of a writing system, should take a look at Allemanic or Bavarian or Low German Wikipedias. The said languages can be also seen as varieties of the German language but there has been no request to close them. Taking into account the number of articles each of the aforementioned Wikipedias posseses and comparing the number with that written in Samogitian, I assume there is no exigency of either suspending or closing the Samogitian Wikipedia. Yet its editors should designate which spelling variant they base their article on. Yours sincerely, Magnus Dux
  53. Oppose I see no any threat or harm in some even true ethnical minority writing encyclopedia in they own dialect. Event if it represents only one of the several possible Samogitian local dialects, I still see no problem. Nematau problemos. Audriusa 07:34, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
  54. Oppose --Sarvaturi 08:07, 27 June 2010 (UTC) It's useful.
  55. Oppose Samogitian language is too old and too valuable to be tossed around just because there's a little number of native speakers left. I strongly oppose closing of Samogitian Wikipedia section.
  56. Oppose If there are speakers, possibility of ISO code and wiki is live, there is no reason for close. JAn Dudík 10:00, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
  57. Oppose I am Samogitian and I see this proposal very offensive
  58. Oppose --Shore3 23:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
  59. Oppose I am not samogitian and I don't speak samogitian (only standart lithuanian), and yes samogitian isn't a language it is a dialect. But as I understand there are a lot of articles in this wiki (12.000+) and loosing them all would be unaccptable.
  60. Oppose --djdalgis
  61. Oppose -- I can't imagine closing any project. There is a long list of languages that are now extinct. Wikipedia is a tool that can help promote and preserve a language, thereby preventing it from being added to that list. Jhendin 19:12, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
  62. Oppose --eisee I think that samogitian is more language than dialect.
  63. Oppose --User:Henkt Samogitian is the only language left untouched. It is the only "original" language. The standard Lithuanian was modified grammatically into what it is today. Don't kill another language.
  64. Oppose --User:Saulius M. Just closing the work of many years would be harmful for the culture. Our strength is in diversity and collaboration (btw, my roots are in Dzūkija/Dainava (i.e. Yotvingian part of Lithuania)). Congratulation to Samogitians in a day of 750-year anniversary of Battle of Durbe! 09:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
  65. Oppose --User:Piedro Aillard Whether Samogitian is a dialect of Lithuanian or not is of no concern when it comes to decide should Samogitian stay of go. But I only say that if Samogitian goes, so should many other languages go as well, such as Scots, Alemannisch, Arpitan, Võru etc. etc. For some reason I feel here a Lithuanian nationalistic agenda.
  66. Oppose --Jnk1 so Dirgela's major concern is that samogitian is only a dialect. Well there is a wikipedia in Alemannic German, isn't it? And that is also not a language, but only a dialect. Although spoken by many, it has no written rules, no offcial grammar, etc. It is not recognized as an official language by any country. Newertheless, wikipedia in that language exists. Samogitian wikipedia is, actually, even more active that alemmanic. I therefore don't see any problem in having it arround. Jnk1
  67. Oppose Nesutinku kad reiketu panaikinti Zemaitiska Wikipedija. Jau Lietuviai ir taip daug is musu ateme tai palikit nors kalba...
  68. Oppose I oppose. Samogitian Wikipedia ir quite good project. I think we would have to close Ny Norsk Wikipedia in that sence, if Samogitian Wikipedia would be closed. 89.8.155.210 20:12, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
    Nynorsk is Norway's attempt to rid Norwegian of the Danish influence. Both Nynorsk and Bokmål are taught in schools. Deleting Nynorsk wouldn't serve anyone's best interests. Besides, there are, to date, over 58, 000 articles written in Nynorsk. When it comes to dialect vs. language there seems to be a fine line. Some interpret a dialect to be the same as a language. Samogitian has every right to stand on its own as a language. Jhendin 20:34, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
  69. Oppose If Samogitian Wikipedia is closed, it follows that Galego, Plattdüütsch, Deitsch and many others need to be closed. Not to mention that a cultural and linguistic identity would be denied a right of self-expression. IMHO this proposal is completely ridiculous.
    The same happened, when I was in Barcelona in April and talked with a French person who'd lived in Catalunya for years. His opinion was, that the Catalan language was not a language at all but rather a dialect of Spanish and as such should not have any official recognition neither within Spain nor withing EU. He also said, that in France there is only one language and all the others are mere dialects. When I pointed out that Breton was actually a language from a totally different family of languages, he grudgingly amended, that there are only two languages in France. And this even in a situation where, as far as I know, there is no quetion about whether Provencal, Normand or Catalan are all separate languages.
    Here, in this Samogitian discussion I now sense this idea of "one country, one nation, one language", which is apparent in such arguments as "Lithuanian itself is a threatened language, therefore every Lithuanian should strive to protect it againts outside threaths. Promoting Samogitian in any form is a direct threath to the unity of Lithuania and its language." That is my own wording, but the idea came clearly through from for example Dirgela's and Tomreve's arguments. I for one am for multilinguality and therefore must oppose this suggestion of closing Samogitian.
  70. OpposeI believe Samogitian wikipedia is very useful for many reasons. Firstly Samogitian is unique dialect and it is really different from Lithuanian language, so, it will be very sad if this projcet were die. Secondly, many people in Lithuania, who want to know more about Samogitia and its dialect, have great opportunity to read in Samogitian. I suppose, end of this project would be a great loss for everybody - samogitians, lithuanians and others, who are interested in world's history (Samogitia has a really great history and of course, now when those, who know Samogitian left very small group, lost of this project would be catastrofic for all small nation).
  71. Oppose */ by closing samogitian group wikimedia will oppose to generally generally accepted histort of Europe
  72. Oppose Ochkarik
  73. Oppose Dzūkai nuo Leipalingio palaiko žemaitiškos Vikipedijos išlikimą! Išties baltai pavydu matyt žemaitišką vikipediją. Kuo mes visi (dzūkai, žemaičiai, aukštaičiai ir kiti) būsim aktyvesni, tuo gyvesnė bus ir Lietuva.
  74. Support I wouldn't say it's exactly a dialect of the Lithuanian language, because other countries (like Latvia) may use it, too. It's a way of communication. Plus, it sounds cool. So I think it should stay. (Even if it is a joke! :D) Also, some of you people are putting your arguments in the wrong section. If you support, put it in the support section!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.105.43.84 (talk)
    (This is clearly a !vote supporting the language, therefore opposing the closure. I moved it.Seb az86556 21:00, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
  75. Ich glaube, dass man kann alle Wikipedia existieren. Quechua, Volapuk, Latein, Esperanto, Simple Englisch and Dzukian.. Alle. Wikipedia ist frei für alle Menschen.
  76. Oppose: Dirgela might have a point about the lack of codified orthography and body of source literature, but this is true of many small languages and dialects, and is not a good reason to close the project. Alga 23:21, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
  77. Oppose: Uždaryti žemaičių wikipediją būtų skriauda visoms ateities kartoms, nes tai visos IndoEuropiečių kultūros šaknys. Nenuostabu jog ši miršta kai politikieriai pakirtinėja šaknis. Closing samogitian wikipedia will be harm to all future generations, because there are roots off IndoEuropeans culture. It is natural, what she is die'ing, when politicans fell root's. LOMas 12:43, 2 August 2010 (UTC+2)
  78. Oppose: Language has got its proper language code SGS. It's good enough. Riwnodennyk 12:27, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
  79. Oppose proper language code so nothing says me to support --Juhko 14:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

General comments[edit]

  • I agree with Hugo that there is nothing more to discuss about. Dear stewards, do not take this request seriously. --Wisconsus 10:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I suppose every reqeust should be taken into account and discussed seriously. You should not try to directly appeal to stewards in order to affect their decisions. Tomreves 14:58, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
It was my thoughtlessness to mention stewards. My apologizes for that. I wanted to appeal to all the users who watch this page not to take this joke seriously. --Wisconsus 20:27, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, that's your opinion that this is joke. :) Tomreves 20:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Sure it is my opinion. However, I think this opinion is truer than yours. Samogitian is a dialect of Lithuanian which has some considerable differences from Standart Lithuanian, so Samogitians can have its own Wikipedia. Furthermore, isn't it because of personal reasons that you support the closure of bat-smg.wiki, dear Snooker? --Wisconsus 10:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Samogitian Wikipedia must stay. It is important language and wikipedia is important for Samogitian people. If you say, that Samogitian is a dialect of Lithuanian, I can also say that Lithuanian is a dialect of Polish. Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Lithuanian Wikipedia Samogitia 13:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
It was angry joke - I requested to delete this page.Zordsdavini 13:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Trolling seems to be the only argument supporters of Samogitian wikipedia have?--dirgela 16:15, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
You can't say such things as this was made only by one and quickly was resolved by ourselves. Zordsdavini 07:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

General "in general"[edit]

  • Some of the above has to stop. This page is not for an argument along the lines of "your gibberish is not a language". I sense some national/regional grudges or other similar feelings being flung around. Will the supporters please explain what the harm is in the existence of a wiki with over 12,000 articles? Others would dream of that... Seb az86556 13:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I think this campain actually is not against Samogitian language, but against me. These users (Dirgela, Rokaszil, Snooker/Tomreves, and some others) succesfully made a conspiracy to remove me from the Lithuanian wikipedia. After that, they saw that I began actively contribute to Samogitian wikipedia. User:Snooker began to vandalise this project and was baned. So that group now decided to stood against whole project. Even I got some "anonymous" messages at guarani wikipedia where I am a sysop, that I created all articles by myself without knowledge of language and even what I don't know Spanish, what is a nonsence. No wonder if someone will propose to close Guarani wikipedia to thrown away me from any administration in wikimedia projects.
Samogitian is not harmful to anyone. In contrary, we got a lot of positive feedback from the readers, the project various times was publicated at national level newspapers, websites. Hugo.arg 14:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry Hugo.arg, but you don't look that important to anyone. There is no harm in creating new languages, inventing nations or their languages, creating alternative histories and worlds. The only issue is that is not in line with general idea of Wikipedia - language Wikipedias are for writing encyclopedia in one's language, not a playground for somebody trying to invent a language or standardize a non existing language. If the Samogitian language would be standardized and that standard would be widely recognized, then I would not see any issues in a separate Wikipedia for that language.--dirgela 16:13, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, Dirgela, but Samogitian language is acepted and Samogitian Wikipedia is quite a successful project. I would say, that Smaogitian Wikipedia must stay. Samogitian language is a bridge between Latvian and Lithuanian languages. For example, I speak with my Latvian friends in Samogitian language and they tend to understand it better, than a Lithuanian language. I would say that Samogitian language is real, but it is still suffering from a massive wipe out of this language by the USSR. During the years of Lithuania's occupation by the USSR, Samogitian language was erased from the public life by the authorities as unsuitable for the Soviet Occupational authorities. It is important for Samogitian people to have their own Wikipedia. Samogitian language is very different from Lithuanian. Samogitia 07:34, 3 June 2010 (UTC) 07:22, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Dirgela, if you are Samogitian you should what situation is Lithuania with Samogitians. All Samogitians are patriots of Lithuania but to be Samogitian for Samogitian is important thing. All these politics about different nation didn't came from politics, it came from nation. And wikipedia didn't came from politics, it came from nation. Samogitian writing exist already 20 year as Lithuania become independent (before it was banned or we had ONE enemy). After 8 years of discussions there was made standard! It is very good for today. There should pass some time to find bugs and more popular forms for the scientist grammar. If you tried to write in Samogitian (you are Samogitian, so you should) you should see what there is normatives but only practices can show you problems. And what does it mean widely recognized? I guess Lithuanian government never will recognize any Samogitian writing. They will say it is big hard hand from the east. I could say what this no recognition makes conflicts and it looks like big hard hand from the east. So, don't speak without try to write. Come to our community and solve problems together. But today standard is quite enough for writing in one dialect (we chose dounėninkā dialect) and we don't create language - it is exist and without us. Zordsdavini 07:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
Widely recognized means that at least somebody needs to recognize it except Wikipedia community. The only recognition I can find is one book you have mentioned, which has "ideas how Samogitian should be written", however has no intention to make a standard language. And I still not see any arguments in favor except "must stay".--dirgela 14:35, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Ha ha ha, so you haven't read any book in Samogitian :( All today books are written by this "grammar". Zordsdavini 14:50, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

So. I created Facebook group "Vikipedėjė" for the following reasons: to make more people join the project (whioch would help to inrease the quality), and because of other problems. I gave the link of the group in the page of the community. But my change was reverted. I was told that I cannot edit there because I am against Samogitian Wikipedia. Isn't it nationalism? Certainly, when there is such stupid community, I will vote for the closure of the wikipedia. Rokaszil 11:34, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for misunderstanding in wikipedia. It becomes funny story for me :D I didn't know what Samogitians has so hot temperament. So, review what is done and what you did. Zordsdavini 12:08, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Looks like some people have too much time on their hands.. Imagine you have an apple tree (eq. to Lithuanian wiki) growing in the garden (eq. to the whole Wiki project) among other fruit trees, and then there's a currant bush (eq. to Samogitian wiki) at the other end of the garden, among other shrubs and berries. Will you cut that bush down just because it isn't an apple tree or unlikely to become one? No, because both the apple tree and the currant bush will be useful in their own way and both should be able to co-exist without negatively affecting each other. By following this analogy, it is also easy to work out the main reason behind this proposal: personal ambitions/preferences. ~ Mea 12:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Nice, but wrong analogy. Samogitian is not a language, but a group of dialects (or languages if you want), therefore having a Samogitian Wikipedia is as absurd as having Slavic Wikipedia or Baltic wikipedia, even if looking from "garden" perspective there is no harm in that :)--dirgela 14:35, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

My analogy was not focsed on whether it's a language or group of dialects, what I mean it's different categories (Lithuanian and Samogitian are different no matter that Lithuanian is 'single' and Samogitian is 'multiple') but still within one dimension or how you would call it. Your analogy is not perfect either ;) If there were no Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian wikipedias, Baltic wikipedia would make some sense. Or is this what you mean, that creating separate wikis for all SAmogitian dialects would make more sense? :)I see wiki among other things as a learning resource (e.g. it's convenient for learning languages), there are people learning Lithuanian when they have nothing to do with Lithuania, there may be people learning Samogitian and not too bothered which dialect iit is, but still happy there's an easy access to it. ~ Mea 15:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

It's written here maybe 10 times what Vikipedėjė is in the Northern dialect (dounėninku)! Many wiki projects has no official, normative language but is based on the most popular dialect of that language. Hugo.arg 08:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't reading the discussions they seem pretty much not worth my time, just expressed my opinion going by the fact that Samogitian is different from Lithuanian, and later only built on Dirgela's comment.. ~ Mea 09:11, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion Mea's analogy is EXCELLENT. (S)he shows us what kind of question we have here. It is question about CULTURE: apples, currants, ... trees, bushes, ... languages, dialects, ... -- and nobody cares/concerns is that politically/scientifically correct or not. Culture is much wider than politic/scientific correctness. We must be the "human humane" not the "human scientica" or "human regimea" (sorry for crazy neologisms). - Gyvas 15:50, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Lithuanians who claim that Samogitian dialect is meaningless, or that it's no longer present, demonstrate their ignorance in either linguistics and Lithuanian history. There is another strong argument, why Samogitian dialect must be preserved - it is because it retains some features of Old Curonian, an extinct archaic Western Baltic language with no written monuments. --Wisconsus 09:04, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
So basically you do agree that Samogitian dialect is not really used for writing in real life ("must be preserved"). Like OP already said, all Samogitian wikipedia is one huge Original Research and hobby project. --88.118.46.117 16:24, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
What research? Samogitians writes their books and other things, ex. mark near Telšē, capital of Samogitia, written in Samogitian [37] (in Lithuanian it would be: "Telšiai - Žemaitijos sostinė"). After all, all languages must be preserved (and English). And why you are writing as anonymous? Zordsdavini 06:00, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, some people have problem with the meaning of word "to preserve". --Wisconsus 13:05, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I fink, that Žemaitiška wikipedia must be- there are good articles.

Kalbėsiu lietuviškai, jei niekas nesupyks. Reikėtų pažiūrėti į Dirgelos ir kitų veikėjų argumentų pagrindus. Aš manau, kad uždaryti Vikipediją yra tarsi neigti, kad apskritai kalba egzistuoja. Jeigu jie mano kad žemaičių kalba neegzistuoja - tegu tikrai pasiima neribotų viki atostogų. Tačiau gal jie vadovaujasi motyvu, kad toje Vikipedijoje prastai dirbama. Taip, šitas argumentas stiprus ir aš pats jį palaikau. Iš to išplaukia mintis, kad nereikia uždaryti Vikipediją vien todėl, kad joje prastai dirbama, o to didžiausios problemos - neaktyvumas ir kalbos nemokėjimas (hugo.arg apskritai Vikipedijoje bendrauja rytų aukštaičių-žemaičių maišyta tarme, ko pasėkoje iškreipia nemokančiųjų supratimą apie žemaičių kalbą). Žemaičių Vikipedija kol kas gera tik savo idėja, bet ne turiniu, bet panaikinus ją - bus pasikėsinta ir į žemaičių kalbą. 78.58.158.237 21:20, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Neneigiu, kad egzistuoja žemaičių tarmės ar kalba (neteikiu per daug reikšmės šiems terminams, laikau juos sinonimiškais), neigiu, kad egzistuoja standartinė žemaičių kalba, kuria rašytų visi žemaitiškai kalbantys, nes žemaičių kalba turi daug gerokai besiskiriančių potarmių. Yra manančių, kad tokia kalba turėtų būti sukurta, tačiau ir tarp pačių žemaičių yra nedaug palaikančių šią idėją. O žemaitiškos vikipedijos kūrimas neturint standartinės kalbos ar aiškiai neįvardinant, kad rašoma konkrečia potarme privedė prie pilnos profanacijos, kurią matome žemaitiškoje vikipedijoje, čia su Jumis visiškai sutinku.--dirgela 17:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Discussions on meta should be in English (or possibly another commonly accessible language). Whatever you guys have started arguing about, you can take to lt: if you want to continue in Lithuanian. Thanks. Seb az86556 04:10, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
So, if you think that Samogitian language may have language status, and Vikipedia at the same time (if they agree on the general provisions), it is sufficient for me to decide that Samogitian Wikipedia needs to remain. Because: it has all the features of the eligible (known and unknown to you). The question is whether such a widespread and are left like that language, I think, is no longer as Samogitian dialect is declining and deforming, so vitally necessary to choose pro-dialect as basis (it is logical the strongest pro-dialect is selected), which after all is done. 78.58.158.237 20:57, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

::::Legal point. First question is whether the samogitian wikipedia does any harm for the general public? Is Samogiatian a language or not it is the last question. I think the initiative of project abortion is ugly. What crimes are they should be punished for? Thanks, Augustas Ramonas.

Inluencing vote[edit]

One of the admins-beaurocrat in lithuanian wikipedia (and I must stress it's lithuanian, not samogitian wiki) started vote for taking away administrator privileges from user Dirgela because of this Samogitian Wiki closing, and also he's threatening other people to do the same in a case they are for closing. It is the same person who requested to check several users IPs (and successfully got it) because of them being for closing samogitian wiki. Please tell me if it's legal, and if it's not - what further steps must be taken to stop such blackmailing and threats. Sorry if I am asking in the wrong place. I am writing anonymously because I don't want any actions taken against me in Lithuanian wiki, as was the case with Dirgela.

I said it will make war :( Zordsdavini 12:04, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
That's for the folks at lt: to decide. It was quite foreseeable, though... Seb az86556 04:08, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Lets start war, no one can ever think about shuting down one of the oldest Europa language and culture. 08:58, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

General note to all[edit]

Dear all, please stay civilized and discuss the proposal objectively. There are already a lot of contributions on this page which do not follow these directives. (You might decide for yourself if your comments did.) What *is* allowed is to inform the local communities of both Samogitian and Lithuanian (as well as any other) Wikipedias about this proposal in a neutral way. What is *not* allowed is to canvass votes in either direction, to threaten people with desysoping or blocking if they vote the "wrong way", or and especially to personally accuse other people on this or on other pages. It is simply not necessary to judge the proposal, the proposer, the follow-ups of the proposer, or the opponents of the proposal or their knowledge or language abilities in any way. Things like "you know nothing about x" or such are just not helpful for any kind of discussion, please abstain from that kind of comments. Thank you for your attention. --თოგო (D) 13:49, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

but this sentence has argument. What would be if persons arguments are: "english doesn't have alphabet". You would think person doesn't know anything or he specially wrote such disinformation and it is counted as good argument. P.S. I strike out all my not nice words or not needed. Zordsdavini 06:01, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
almost 60 per cent of the oppose votes are fake. Accounts were created in order to vote against this proposal. I demand all oppose users to be checked so that the credbility of this vote could be proved genuine. Tomreves 10:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
@Tomreves: Please explain me, in what way I (personally) am fake. Or: am I - or not among these 60 per cent? Thanks. --Kusurija 09:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I would like you to substantiate your presupposition. Magnus Dux
I'm afraid that's not gonna happen. You can't call for a mass-checkuser on everyone you happen to disagree with. Seb az86556 12:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Some of such new persons (Cyrulis, Žemaitis Linis) I know personally and they exist and are readers, not writers. Many of others are from Lithuanian wiki as there was advertisement to close Samogitian wiki (just copy name and try to find in LT). I think they came here (to meta) for first time and because of unified login they didn't had to go registration process but looks like newly created. I don't think that there is need to create fake users as opposition to proposal are huge. May be here is some fake users (I can't to check) but not 60 percents... May be less time for looking for enemies. Zordsdavini 12:32, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Am I fake too? :D Good luck with that one... ;)Jnk1 10:40, 15 June 2010 (CET)

Folks... You know these closure requests are not votings anyway. They are discussions. Arguments count, not votes. --თოგო (D) 12:06, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

How can anyone seperate their emotions and (il)logical arguments when the texts on the lt wiki says : "Important voting". So people are just supporting because they feel like it, while others oppose. I would urge wiki.lt admin(s) to rename the title that is on every page from "balsavimas" (voting) to "svarbi diskusija" (important discussion), or similar phrases, that way people do not run here and feel like this is some sort of a poll where you hit YET or NO, and express your random thoughts. Break Through Pain 22:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

FYI: Samogitian got their ISO 639-3 code "sgs" [38]. Zordsdavini 12:35, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Snow?[edit]

This should be snowed even the time is not yet. The result should be KEEP. As the scores goes to -66 now.--125.25.52.87 21:13, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.