User:SpeedyGonsales/2013 attacks from media and POV users

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In September 2013 started more or less vicious attacks on Croatian wikipedia from two sources:

  • some media
  • POV users

As this attacks gained lot of attention, and as lot of this noise to uninterested wikimedian can seem genuine, I saw that there is real need to address some of issues present.


History of Croatia 1941-1990[edit]

During WWII there were lot of casualties and crimes, almost everywhere. Territory of todays Croatia is not an exception here. If you check wikipedia of your choice or any better paper encyclopedia you can find that total loss of lives on former SFRJ was 1.7 mil. In historic books written between 1945 and 1980 biggest crime of period is Ustashe camp near Jasenovac, with total death toll around 80.000 people. Exact number unfortunately is not know till today, as communist government never allowed detailed historians work and this number today historians take as accurate as two independent statisticians got to the approximately the same numbers (Serbian Kočović - 70.000, Croat Žerjavić gave estimation of 83.000, list by names of Spomen područje Jasenovac lists 83.145 names). About crimes of communist regime commited during reign of Josip Broz Tito was not written in former SFRJ between 1945 and 1980 (Tito died in 1980), or if something was written, it was written either apologetically or numbers were fake. Facts are clear, victims of Bleiburg and subsequent "cross paths" (križni putovi) are estimated 70.000 - 80.000, war camps of SFRJ for civilians of German/Austrian nationality took further 64.000 (list by names of women of German nationality which died in SFRJ camps 1945-1953 is 25.987 names). Here should be stressed that all deaths/crimes I cited here were not commited on front line, but either in prison camps or death marchs, Ustashi crimes during 1941-1945, communist regime crimes 1945-1953, and WWII ended in 1945.

In short, death toll of war and post-war period is high, and there is no side here which is absolutely innocent.

Croatia 1990-2013[edit]

During these 23 years and transition of Croatia from communist/socialist kinda plan economy to capitalism, new democracy gave freedom to scientists (historians in first place, but also to any other science which is connected to history and communist/socialist worldview), so lot of new studies is published, and some books by Croatian historians which were published abroad got (at least) second edition in Croatia.

Croatia is independent democratic republic, for which its citizens have fought 1991-1995 against well equipped former JNA (before 1990 called by some as 3rd or 4th armed force of Europe) and some local Serbs. Eastern part of historic Slavonia were under UNPROFOR control 1995-1998, after that whole territory is under control of Republic of Croatia police and armed forces. This was important to note for two reasons:

  • new war and its outcome is possible cause of revert wars (not just possible, but real cause)
  • some of Croatian high officials during 1991-1995 war were also high officials during communist regime, that is sometimes mentioned as reason why there was no lustration of people which commited crimes in 1945-1990 period, or at least judicial treatment of people for alleged crimes in 1945-1990 period.

Croatia 1.7.2013 onward[edit]

Croatia is member state of EU, but although economic state in country is alarming comparing to state in last 30 years in Croatia (almost 10% of population is unemployed, and workforce is ~33% of population). media space is often times full of talk about WWII problems, partizani vs. ustaše. Current government (socialist) firstly denied extradition of Josip Perković to Germany (aforementioned high official both during 1991-1995 war and in 1945-1990 period), and I just read today that Croatian High court decided to extradite Josip Perković to Germany.

In such highly politically turbulent situation in state it is no wonder that some media with sensationalistic approach publish more or less fake stories (there are court decisions which evidence that some journalist lied/faked their articles in same media which attacked sysops of Croatian Wikipedia).

Media attacks[edit]

Some media published in September 2013 that sysops of Croatian Wikipedia wrote or promote fascistic worldview. I contacted lawyer and lawsuit is underway, also I was guest on national television in "Pola ure kulture" (Cultural half hour) in December 2013, which speakers of Croatian language can watch on (television on demand), so you can judge by yourself listening both my words, words of Mario Jareb, historian and comment of journalist of Croatian Radiotelevision.

Regarding media attacks I wrote and said on television: I want that all crimes (and criminals) got same justice, and be measured by same merits. I guess that idea is problematic to some, as some crimes and criminals got different treatment than others in SFRJ and it seems so both in todays Croatia.

Attacks of POV users[edit]

Todays POV pushers use same tactic as communists in period of 1945-1990, discredit someone by defamation (calling him/her fascist or some other derogatory terms), and then two thirds of job are done, as who would listen words of fascist or racist or .... something without prejudice?

Media attacks took of Facebook hategroup, but also attacks of POV pushers stemmed there. Here on meta they almost communicate decently, but when warned that their argumentation is either false or flawed, they don't budge. Their words being misinterpretation, fallacies or pure lies, they do not care. If they remove sysops whose only concern is that users use quality sources, could new user have courage to write facts or correct interpretation if small group of POV pushers recently almost desysoped three sysops without any probable cause. Take a look: Requests for comment/2013 issues on Croatian Wikipedia - 600.848 bytes, Requests for comment/2013 issues on Croatian Wikipedia/Evidence/Conduct - 322.863 bytes, Requests for comment/2013 issues on Croatian Wikipedia/Evidence/Content - 173.435 bytes; all in all lot of bytes, but no real substance.


What to write today as conclusion? Regarding media attacks court and judge will tell, regarding attacks of POV users, hopefully community of Croatian Wikipedia. They already wrote what they think in our village pump, over and over again. POV pushers are biting, they call for steward action, for WMF action, proposing crazy ideas. Is that wiki way, to retreat if POV pushers are well organized, loud and aggressive? I hope not.

SpeedyGonsales (talk) 19:11, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

(My signature above do not denote this page as talk page, it is just clear sign who wrote above words and when for wikimedia newbies, although experienced users can see that easily from history of this page; if you have some comment please use my talk page.)