Wikimania 2013/IRC meeting 2012-04-15

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JamesF_moderator: We'll start with London.
[07:58am] JamesF_moderator: So, again please, please suggest questions in #wikimania-questions so that the teams can prepare for the questions before we ask them?
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[07:59am] Thogo_jury: do you have the budget update on Meta now, EdSaperia_London?
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[07:59am] EdSaperia_London: James_London: have you uploaded it yet?
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[08:00am] James_London: about to now
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[08:02am] JamesF_moderator: James_London, EdSaperia_London> We'll start now if that's OK?
[08:02am] EdSaperia_London: I'm happy to start
[08:02am] JamesF_moderator: OK.
[08:03am] JamesF_moderator: Question 1. How much Wikimania attendence experience is there in your team?
[08:03am] EdSaperia_London: Budget editing might be delayed. Wiki tables are fiddly
[08:03am] EdSaperia_London: Marek69 has been to two Wikimaniae, 2010 and 2011
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[08:04am] JamesF_moderator: OK.
[08:04am] EdSaperia_London: The original core team of Harry Mitchell, Marek69, Panyd and myself went to the GLAM conference in Amsterdam back in November when we made the first plans for the London bid, and discussed it with him at length there
[08:04am] JamesF_moderator: EdSaperia_London> And would all/most of those people be in the team if you win?
[08:05am] EdSaperia_London: Harry and Panyd both have a lot of wikimedia event experience
[08:05am] EdSaperia_London: on the organisational side
[08:05am] EdSaperia_London: Panyd might be too sick
[08:05am] EdSaperia_London: But yes, they've pledged their support.
[08:06am] JamesF_moderator: OK, thanks.
[08:06am] EdSaperia_London: We've also been talking to WereSpielChequers and others at the london meetups for the past couple of months, getting feedback on our ideas
[08:07am] JamesF_moderator: 2. How much of the budget do you think you will cover from with sponsorhip?
[08:08am] EdSaperia_London: Well, if you include both sponsorship and in-kind sponsorship, hopefully all of it!
[08:08am] EdSaperia_London: but -
[08:08am] EdSaperia_London: We've had some very promising discussions with our pro London organisations, London First, London & Partners etc
[08:08am] EdSaperia_London: Who have suggested that they could get us the venue at cost
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[08:08am] JamesF_moderator: And sponsoring events is unusual to them or there is a standard process?
[08:09am] EdSaperia_London: It's not unusual for them, they are involved in over 300 events a year.
[08:09am] JamesF_moderator: Right.
[08:10am] EdSaperia_London: Process tends to be event specific, starting with discussions with likely partner organisations and major sponsors
[08:10am] JamesF_moderator: 3. Have you considered the security risk of the event - a fuel strike, terrorist attack, etc.?
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[08:11am] EdSaperia_London: The Barbican is an international conference facility that will have adequate contingencies for things happening on the day, such as in house security, first aid, etc.
[08:11am] EdSaperia_London: In terms of things which cause the event to be cancelled entirely
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[08:12am] EdSaperia_London: we've looked at some basic quotes for cancellation insurance
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[08:12am] EdSaperia_London: which scale with our budget, pretty much.
[08:12am] JamesF_moderator: EdSaperia_London> Last year's event (Haifa) had a full plan for what to do if there was a missile strike, but it was the first ever.
[08:12am] EdSaperia_London: That's impressive.
[08:13am] EdSaperia_London: I'll admit, we don't have a plan for missile strikes
[08:13am] EdSaperia_London: YET
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[08:13am] JamesF_moderator: Right.
[08:13am] jureia: EdSaperia_London: would it be fair to assume you will work with your local partners to do everything that is normal in London based events?
[08:13am] jureia: regarding the emergency plans etc
[08:13am] EdSaperia_London: I'm not sure I understand the question.
[08:14am] jureia: it was a follow up to the previous question
[08:14am] JamesF_moderator: EdSaperia_London> Will you follow best-practice for security/planning for London events, given that you'll be working with organisations that do it all the time?
[08:14am] jureia: thanks for clarifying, james
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[08:14am] EdSaperia_London: Yes - we'll have support from the event team of London First and London & Partners and also the inhouse event team with The Barbican, who I believe will be fully trained for these eventualities.
[08:15am] EdSaperia_London: I'll imagine there contingency planning will have been pretty good for the Olympics
[08:15am] EdSaperia_London: *their
[08:15am] JamesF_moderator: OK, thank you.
[08:15am] JamesF_moderator: 4. Would you be using international volunteers to help run your Wikimania, or just locals?
[08:16am] EdSaperia_London: We'll be using all volunteers who have something to offer, as much as we can. Obviously having London knowledge will help, but I imagine international volunteers will be very helpful for e.g. translation, or pre-empting visa difficulties
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[08:18am] EdSaperia_London: Here's an updated budget, btw: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2013_bids/London#The_Budget
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[08:19am] JamesF_moderator: OK, thanks.
[08:19am] JamesF_moderator: 5. Thank you for adding a budget. The currently proposed budget is 550.000 GBP - a pretty high amount compared to previous years. If you would have to cut it (say, with resp. 20, 40, 50%) - could you please identify the things that would have to go first?
[08:20am] JamesF_moderator: (Yes, sorry, I know the new budget is £301,000.) incompatible encoding
[08:20am] Beria_Jury: JamesF_moderator, the new bugted is on ly 300 K
[08:20am] • JamesF_moderator nods.
[08:20am] EdSaperia_London: You'll see, the budget's significantly reduced now. The easiest place to reduce the budget is cut down the social events - we have three pretty flashy ones.
[08:22am] jureia: EdSaperia_London: Would I be correct to interpret that your venue is not set in stone?
[08:22am] jureia: but if budget would require, you could move to another?
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[08:22am] EdSaperia_London: It depends. I like the Barbican a lot, I think it would be a fantastic place to hold this event, for its facilities, its culture and its location. We've had a soft offer for it at cost price instead of full price, but even at full price it's not unreasonable for what you get.
[08:23am] EdSaperia_London: However, we've had a few other venues offered at cost price as well.
[08:23am] Deror_jury: How much is cost price?
[08:23am] Deror_jury: what does that inclue (room, tech stuff)
[08:23am] JamesF_moderator: Deror_jury> Shown on budget.
[08:23am] Deror_jury: Who gave said offer?
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[08:24am] EdSaperia_London: London First.
[08:24am] James_London: Security, medics, insurance, all the rooms listed on the bid, wifi, tech support and event planner
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[08:24am] James_London: +access to barbican communal facilities i.e restaurants, galleries etc
[08:25am] EdSaperia_London: The way they talked about it suggested that they organised in-kind donations of venues on a regular basis for many of their events.
[08:26am] JamesF_moderator: OK. 7. What is the catering budget comprised of (no. of meals per person, which meals, does it include special meals (halal/veggie/kosher/...), coffee breaks, does it include hacking days)?
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[08:26am] EdSaperia_London: Let me just pull up the breakdown
[08:26am] Deror_jury: How much will the Barbican cost? U have an offer by them for Pound 20K?
[08:27am] EdSaperia_London: Deror_jury: Not a firm one. We were told "at cost price, 15 or 20k"
[08:27am] JamesF_moderator: OK.
[08:28am] EdSaperia_London: The catering line on the budget does not include the catering at the social events
[08:28am] EdSaperia_London: it does include catering for the hackathon, which we estimated at 150 attendees
[08:28am] EdSaperia_London: it includes lunch on each day, and dinner on the non-social event days
[08:29am] EdSaperia_London: it's an estimate based on the average of a few quotes from a few firms on their fork buffet price
[08:29am] EdSaperia_London: which worked out at around £15 for lunch and £20 for dinner
[08:29am] EdSaperia_London: per head
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[08:29am] EdSaperia_London: Typically breakfast is provided by hotels
[08:30am] JamesF_moderator: OK. 8. AV budget - including videoing of the talks? if not, where is that in budget, and what is this item comprised of?
[08:30am] EdSaperia_London: The venue also has several restaurants and cafes in it, so we budgeted for about 20% less than the full attendance
[08:31am] EdSaperia_London: Yes. We have a service partner, Bluecat productions, who has pledged recording and livestreaming of the talks.
[08:31am] EdSaperia_London: The venue also has this facility
[08:31am] EdSaperia_London: In its main auditoriums, at least.
[08:31am] JamesF_moderator: Right.
[08:32am] JamesF_moderator: 9. Science Museum Social Event, Tate and Barbican Saturday Night Social Event - detail for each item what is it comprised of, based on what this estimate is made.
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[08:32am] EdSaperia_London: James_London, all yours
[08:32am] James_London: sure
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[08:33am] James_London: The Science Museam already has links with WMUK and work with London First and London & Partners, so we are able to get the venue at cost wich is around £2000-£3000 depending on how many gallaries we require
[08:33am] James_London: the budget also includes a buffet style dinner / canapes and drinks
[08:33am] Deror_jury: no. of people?
[08:34am] James_London: The museam has free wifi, its for up to 1000 people
[08:34am] Deror_jury: just to clarify - price is for buffet for 1000
[08:35am] James_London: the Barbican event will take place in teh main hall, of the acts we have spoken too they are willing to do it pro-bono, we have an inhouse stage designer. The costs are for a production team / stage manager to run the event
[08:35am] James_London: correct
[08:35am] James_London: Tate moden is a simular arrangement to the Science Museam
[08:36am] James_London: The budget is an average of several quotes, it depends on how much money is avalible via sponsorship
[08:36am] JamesF_moderator: OK.
[08:36am] EdSaperia_London: The events were pretty scalable, depending on how nice you want your food!
[08:37am] JamesF_moderator: 15. Did you contact the hotels and checked availability? Do you have estimation of hotel costs?
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[08:37am] EdSaperia_London: We contacted a number of hotels. We found their availability for next summer tended to be completely open still, which quite surprised me actually.
[08:38am] EdSaperia_London: Price obviously depends on quality.
[08:38am] EdSaperia_London: There's info about this on our bid page
[08:38am] JamesF_moderator: Right.
[08:38am] Deror_jury: What would be the price for attendee with scholarship (i.e. how much the scholarship will need pay)?
[08:39am] EdSaperia_London: In addition, London First has a member of staff whose job related to university education, and he says since our event is "education related", we should be able to get large block bookings in university halls for cheap or free.
[08:39am] EdSaperia_London: I don't know, we haven't considered that before.
[08:39am] JamesF_moderator: EdSaperia_London> So, flights + attendance costs + accomodation at the low level (dorms)?
[08:40am] James_London: Very hard to judge due to the range of locations people will be coming from
[08:40am] James_London: attendace costs will be kept minimal - 0
[08:40am] James_London: the youth hostel association has offerd accommodation at £40 per night for a private room
[08:40am] EdSaperia_London: That quote struck me as quite expensive, as well.
[08:40am] James_London: less for dorms, although we hope that with the parterships with universities that will be much less
[08:41am] EdSaperia_London: Shared room hostels can go down to £15-£30
[08:41am] EdSaperia_London: per night
[08:41am] Thogo_jury: uhm... private room = single room with toilet+shower?
[08:41am] JamesF_moderator: So... flights + £300? + £500? incompatible encoding
[08:41am] James_London: It also means that delegates will all be in one place
[08:42am] James_London: for the 3 days £90 of accomedation + Spending money + Small (£10-£30) attendance fee
[08:42am] jeromyu: all in one place?
[08:42am] James_London: private rooms will probally have communal shower / toilet facilities in hostels
[08:43am] James_London: Jeromyu - all in one place should university accomedation deals be in place
[08:43am] jeromyu: okay, thx for the clarify
[08:43am] James_London: nw
[08:43am] EdSaperia_London: Just a note - there is a lot of university accommodation in London. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_and_higher_education_colleges_in_London
[08:44am] JamesF_moderator: Sure.
[08:44am] hk_28481k: True, hopefully you can get the City University ones!
[08:44am] JamesF_moderator: OK, final question: 18. What is in your opinion the most important outcome for a successful Wikimania?
[08:45am] EdSaperia_London: A better encyclopaedia
[08:45am] Philippe: Go on, please?
[08:46am] EdSaperia_London: Or, more specifically, enthusiastic new editors and better links between existing editors
[08:47am] EdSaperia_London: The social network element of the wikimedia project is one that is often overlooked
[08:47am] Thogo_jury: new editors? So you would advertise the event also to the wider public?
[08:47am] JamesF_moderator: Right.
[08:47am] Philippe: Can you talk more about that? How does your bid strengthen those links? Beyond the obviously "people in a room together" connections.
[08:47am] EdSaperia_London: But I think it's one of its great strengths, and also a key way of recruiting new editors
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[08:48am] EdSaperia_London: firstly, I think the event will do a lot to raise awareness in "the public" that wikimedia is a bunch of people rather than a website
[08:49am] jureia: EdSaperia_London: would you see Wikimania primarily as an outreach event to get new users or do you see it as a different kind of event primarily?
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[08:49am] EdSaperia_London: secondly, I think going to wikimania in London will be wicked cool, so editors will be encouraged to go
[08:50am] EdSaperia_London: Good keynotes, good events, good location, exciting city are all good ways to tempt people out of their holes
[08:50am] EdSaperia_London: jureia: I think it's wrong to think of it in such black and white terms. Lots of people have dabbled in editing. There are lots of fringe users who could become more integrated into the community if they had a chance to make some friends.
[08:51am] EdSaperia_London: There's lots going on in the projects that nobody knows about
[08:51am] EdSaperia_London: A live event helps a bit of random diffusion get in there
[08:51am] James_London: There are also very interesting opportunities in getting the next generation of editors involved through youth groups such as coderdojo and Robocup Junior etc
[08:52am] EdSaperia_London: people will go to talks on subjects they might not bother reading about online
[08:52am] EdSaperia_London: They'll see things in the exhibitions and overhear things
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[08:52am] Philippe: I'm sorry to press on this one a little, but it's important to me. What are YOU offering with your event that isn't something that automatically happens with Wikimania? Why is yours different/better?
[08:52am] EdSaperia_London: The wifi will work?
[08:52am] Philippe: I'd take that
[08:52am] EdSaperia_London:
[08:52am] JamesF_moderator: OK.
[08:53am] JamesF_moderator: We've now been here for 50 minutes, so I'd like to wind this down for London. As a follow-up, there are a few unanswered questions on the talkpage which we haven't got to - can you please outline when you think you would be able to answer them and if it would be necessary for you that we identify the importance of some critical questions?
[08:53am] EdSaperia_London: one last thing
[08:53am] hk_28481k_: Why would you be certain that the wifi would work EdSaperia_London
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[08:53am] jureia: hk_28481k: please ask questions in the proper channel
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[08:53am] James_London: @hk_28481k becasue we have cisco on board
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[08:53am] EdSaperia_London: I think London has a very good and vibrant "tech" scene, who would become very good editors. There are lots of related meetups and conferences and events.
[08:54am] EdSaperia_London: I've got some quite strong links to this scene, and I think there's a lot of untapped potential there.
[08:54am] EdSaperia_London: hk_28481k: I WILL CARRY THE BITS WITH MY BARE HANDS
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[08:54am] hk_28481k: Cool
[08:54am] Philippe: Pigeon based networking? Again?
[08:54am] Thogo_jury:
[08:54am] JamesF_moderator: Philippe> It worked in 2005.
[08:54am] EdSaperia_London: I was thinking catapults
[08:54am] JamesF_moderator: OK.
[08:55am] JamesF_moderator: Any final very quick questions for London?
[08:55am] hk_28481k: Fun fun fun, and it's nice to know.
[08:55am] EdSaperia_London: JamesF_moderator: we'll be addressing the final questions on the bid page in the coming week
[08:55am] EdSaperia_London: Some depend on third parties replying to emails, so...
[08:55am] EdSaperia_London: We do what we can.
[08:55am] JamesF_moderator: EdSaperia_London> Excellent, thank you.
[08:55am] root-80686_Jury: JamesF_moderator: I also think it worked in 2011
[08:56am] JamesF_moderator: root-80686_Jury> Indeed!
[08:56am] JamesF_moderator: OK.
[08:56am] JamesF_moderator: Thank you London team.
[08:56am] James_London: Thanks guys
[08:56am] JamesF_moderator: Now, are there any questions for any of the other teams present?
[08:56am] JamesF_moderator: Ah, I've been asked to ask HK the vision question, if that's OK?
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[08:57am] JamesF_moderator: -- HONG KONG --
[08:57am] JamesF_moderator: 1. What is in your opinion the most important outcome for a successful Wikimania?
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[08:58am] JamesF_moderator: CEhk_HK / hk_28481k - are you able to answer? Sorry!
[08:58am] jureia: jeromyu:
[08:58am] jeromyu: coming
[08:59am] jeromyu: I think what is most important for us, is the a better regional development in nearby region.
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[09:00am] jeromyu: There is a lot of Wikipedian communities are developing nearby Hong Kong, i.e. East Asia, Southeast Asia
[09:00am] jeromyu: and also China
[09:01am] hk_28481k: To increase awareness of participation as well as usage
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[09:01am] jeromyu: however, Wikimanias these years are all host in the city where they have take more than 10 hours of flights
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[09:02am] jeromyu: So a Wikimania in this region will help to bring these community to the greater global community
[09:03am] • Philippe nods. thank you.
[09:03am] JamesF_moderator: OK, any other questions?
[09:03am] jeromyu: and Hong Kong as a regional hub with convenient connection to the other parts of world and national of 170 countries can enjoy visa free access.
[09:04am] jureia: jeromyu: can you define 'development' a bit more?
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[09:04am] jureia: is it about growth, about bringing together different language communities, about (fill in your meaning)
[09:05am] jeromyu: the most basic is of course more people to know about wikipedia
[09:05am] jeromyu: HK as a media centre of the region, defiantly can bring this message to nearby region
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[09:06am] jeromyu: and then is edit, and similarly the media viral and social media viral we can bring from the event can help us achieve this
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[09:06am] JamesF_moderator: OK, I think that's all questions answered.
[09:06am] jeromyu: the higher level is of course getting organized and to learn from others
[09:07am] jeromyu: then come to the event!
[09:07am] JamesF_moderator: Any final questions for HK?
[09:07am] JamesF_moderator: Or any other teams?
[09:07am] jureia: (I have asked the same question to Bristol by the way)
[09:07am] Thogo_jury: bennylin: are you available?
[09:07am] jureia: and would have the same question for Solo if they are available
[09:07am] bennylin: sure
[09:07am] Thogo_jury: there we go.
[09:07am] JamesF_moderator: Excellent./
[09:07am] JamesF_moderator: bennylin> Could you answer that "vision" question for Solo?
[09:07am] bennylin: can you repeat the question?
[09:08am] bennylin: ok
[09:08am] jureia: bennylin: Question: What is in your opinion the most important outcome for a successful Wikimania.
[09:08am] bennylin: so is that two questions?
[09:09am] bennylin: a successfull Wikimania
[09:09am] bennylin: wait a sec, opening the page
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[09:10am] jureia: bennylin: that is the same question
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[09:10am] jureia: just copied the exact wording for you
[09:11am] bennylin: we envision that a successful Wikimania 2013 would result on greater awareness of 1) Global South and 2) mobile technology
[09:11am] bennylin: these two are currently the strategic goal of Wikimedia FOundation
[09:11am] bennylin: and holding the event in Surakarta/Indonesia would give the correct signal to the world
[09:12am] bennylin: it's the largest developing nation
[09:12am] bennylin: and also mobile consumer/user
[09:12am] jureia: awareness with whom?
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[09:13am] eia_moderator: (/me takes over for the moment )
[09:13am] bennylin: people who lives in global south, and/or mobile user
[09:14am] bennylin: for example if in 2013 the mobile UI is finished
[09:14am] eia_moderator: (Further questions for Solo, please paste them in #wikimania-questions )
[09:14am] bennylin: it could transform those eyeballs into editors
[09:15am] bennylin: again, the timing is right, the ball is rolling
[09:15am] eia_moderator: bennylin: so you feel Wikimania would be an outreach opportunity to 'sell' the mobile application?
[09:15am] eia_moderator: (trying to understand what you are meaning)
[09:16am] bennylin: not necessarily
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[09:17am] bennylin: i'll try to rephrase it correctly on the bid page
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[09:18am] bennylin: assuming that this is a general question for all bids
[09:18am] • Philippe nods. Thank you, bennylin
[09:18am] eia_moderator: it is helpful already - extension on the bid page would definitely be even more helpful
[09:18am] eia_moderator: thank you
[09:18am] eia_moderator: any other questions to Solo at this point?
[09:19am] bennylin: and another goal is having fun with other Wikimedians, of course
[09:19am] eia_moderator: bennylin: please note there are still several questions open in the talkpage
[09:19am] eia_moderator: when will you be able to answer those?
[09:19am] bennylin: yes, i'm currently working on those
[09:19am] bennylin: ready to be saved
[09:19am] eia_moderator: so tonight? Great
[09:20am] eia_moderator: Then we move to Bristol I think
[09:20am] eia_moderator: who are not here, but I took the brutality to ask them the same question about vision via other channels a few minutes ago
[09:20am] eia_moderator: -- Bristol --
[09:21am] eia_moderator: Steve said (without extensively consulting his team - will expand on the bid page probably):
[09:21am] eia_moderator: There are several: the event runs smoothly; that the work of the last year is celebrated, discussions held and lessons learnt. That wikipedian knowledge is shared and that good practice is shared. That good (and new) ideas are cross fertilised and explored. That issues of importance are addressed: more editors, more minority communities are involved, and women, of course. But if you pushed...
[09:21am] eia_moderator: ...me for *one* single outcome for a successful Wikimania - we managed to get more people involved and had a lot of fun doing so.
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[09:21am] eia_moderator: pasting this here for the log primarily
[09:21am] hk_28481k: And the answer?
[09:21am] Thogo_jury: that is the answer.
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[09:22am] eia_moderator: hk_28481k: that was indeed the answer
[09:22am] hk_28481k: Noted for logging purposes.
[09:22am] Stefano_: sorry, is still a question time this? Also for Naples?
[09:22am] eia_moderator: aaah, Stefano_
[09:22am] eia_moderator: glad you're here
[09:22am] eia_moderator: then... we quickly move to Naples too
[09:22am] eia_moderator: -- Naples --
[09:22am] eia_moderator: (let me find the Q)
[09:23am] hk_28481k: Sorry for asking presumptively.
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[09:23am] Stefano_Naples: we didn't know
[09:23am] eia_moderator: Stefano_Naples: Question: What is in your opinion the most important outcome for a successful Wikimania.
[09:23am] eia_moderator: Stefano_Naples: no, we didn't know either but now you're here, maybe you can answer it?
[09:23am] eia_moderator: then we have an answer from all teams
[09:24am] Stefano_Naples: ok, just a second..
[09:24am] Stefano_Naples: well a Wikimania held in Naples woul allow 3 things, basically:
[09:26am] Stefano_Naples: a) a considerable attention to the future technologies (see our keynote speakers)
[09:27am] Stefano_Naples: b) would help to send a message of cohoperation among different cultures, due to the Forum of Cultures (held a week before)
[09:27am] Stefano_Naples: c) the event would introduce an entire region to Wikiprojects, as southern italy is still new for this world
[09:28am] eia_moderator: Stefano_Naples: but what would be the main *outcome* ?
[09:28am] Stefano_Naples: satisfied?
[09:29am] eia_moderator: what should be different after wikimania, compared to before
[09:29am] eia_moderator: should there be world peace? (example)
[09:30am] Stefano_Naples: it's not likely to happen thank to Wikimania
[09:30am] Stefano_Naples: but
[09:31am] Stefano_Naples: the sense of the Forum is mainly the comprehension of diversity. We do believe that part of wikimania's aim is exacty the same
[09:31am] Stefano_Naples: and don't forget
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[09:32am] Stefano_Naples: that wikipedia still misses an enormous eritage present in southern Italy
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[09:32am] Stefano_Naples: better now??
[09:33am] eia_moderator: Stefano_Naples: thanks
[09:33am] eia_moderator: then I think we're done with this part of Q&A
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[09:33am] eia_moderator: we have an optional meeting after this starting now
[09:33am] eia_moderator: Philippe: ?
[09:34am] Philippe: Sure, thanks eia_moderator
[09:34am] Philippe: I was contacted by Asaf and Barry from the WMF asking for time to speak to the jury about the support the WMF could give and particular factors that they had in mind.
[09:34am] Philippe: At the request of the jury, that conversation is being help publicly, and we appreciate Asaf and Barry/Garfield for being willing to do that.
[09:35am] Philippe: I don't know a great deal about what they have in mind, exactly, so I'm just going to stare dumbly at Asaf and say "go ahead"
[09:35am] eia_moderator is now known as effeietsanders.
[09:35am] effeietsanders: === end of Q&A ===

[09:36am] Thogo_jury: will the following part still be publicly logged and posted on Meta?
[09:36am] JamesF_moderator: Yes.
[09:36am] hk_28481k: So Q&A is ended but an optional meeting about WMF help?
[09:36am] JamesF_moderator: Yes.
[09:36am] JamesF_moderator: We know it's late in HK and Solo.
[09:37am] effeietsanders: hk_28481k: very optional - just in case you want to know about it
[09:37am] effeietsanders: you can also read the log later
[09:37am] Deror_jury: The meeting is here and now
[09:37am] Philippe: (for those who are waiting, give us just a sec… organizational hiccup)
[09:37am] Asaf_: Hi, everyone.
[09:38am] Philippe: Good Hi Asaf_
[09:38am] bnewstead: Hello everyone, thanks for making time. I think Asaf will start and I'll add thoughts.
[09:38am] Philippe: hey Barry
[09:39am] Asaf_: So, we wanted to mention an update in our thinking on WMF's support for Wikimania, as well as to address the jury based on the Wikimania experience from our side.
[09:39am] Asaf_ was granted voice by JamesF_moderator.
[09:39am] gbyrd was granted voice by JamesF_moderator.
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[09:39am] Patricio_jury: Hi Asaf_, bnewstead
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[09:40am] Asaf_: First, it seems we need to up the size of the traditional WMF grant to Wikimania organizing teams.
[09:40am] bnewstead: Hi Patricio.
[09:41am] hk_28481k: Asaf_: What was the grant before?
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[09:42am] Asaf_: In past years, the organizing teams received what was termed a loan of $100K, which they were to return if they could raise enough money. In practice, the money was used up in the conference.
[09:42am] bnewstead: Note: technically WMF provides a loan that is convertible to a grant, if needed (which has usually been the case)
[09:42am] Asaf_: This is in addition to the WMF's funding of scholarships, which costs even more than that sum, every year.
[09:42am] bnewstead: Oops. Sorry Asaf.
[09:43am] Asaf_: Second, in response to questions we've had, we would like to say we are willing to further support organizing teams with a short-term stipend for one key organizer, to help in the critical "crunch" months before the event, if the team feels it could help and there's a suitable candidate.
[09:43am] Philippe: Ah, interesting. Nice addition.
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[09:44am] effeietsanders: Asaf_: is that limited by the amount of money reserved for it, or the number of people covered by it?
[09:45am] Asaf_: effeietsanders, the scholarships?
[09:45am] effeietsanders: no, the short term stipend
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[09:45am] hk_28481k: Sorry, could Asaf_ answer the amount he's proposing to increase please as I was in an elevator necessaries me to go offline? And the scholarships.
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[09:46am] Asaf_: We were asked about support for one person, and that seemed enough of a boost, so we're thinking one key organizer. But I guess it's negotiable.
[09:46am] bnewstead: hk_28481k: Historically, the loan/grant has been for $100K and scholarships have been about the same amount, although we are increasing it.
[09:46am] Asaf_: hk_28481k, <+Asaf_> In past years, the organizing teams received what was termed a loan of $100K, which they were to return if they could raise enough money. In practice, the money was used up in the conference.
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[09:47am] hk_28481k: Noted with thanks
[09:47am] Asaf_: (scholarships this year are already more than $150K, IIRC)
[09:47am] Asaf_: Lastly, we want to encourage the jury to place a lot of weight on bidding teams' organizational strength. Probably more than has been placed on it so far.
[09:48am] Philippe: Could you expand on that?
[09:48am] Philippe: (I should say clearly that i'm asking in my role as a jury member, not as a staff member… Asaf (properly) didn't discuss this stuff with me in advance.)
[09:49am] Asaf_: We say this based on the WMF's experience supporting Wikimania every year. While it is a community and community-organized event, we find ourselves supporting it in a variety of ways behind the scenes, (and we are happy to provide that support), but there is an amount of work and a type of task that can only be fulfilled by the local team.
[09:50am] Asaf_: we are happy to provide guidance, share contacts, offer leads, help with contracts, etc.
[09:50am] effeietsanders: Asaf_: can you also rephrase your original statement about the weight?
[09:50am] effeietsanders: I'm not sure I understand what you mean
[09:51am] effeietsanders: (value it as important vs. make sure that all the work is done by the team and not i.e. externals)
[09:51am] Philippe: effeietsanders: So you're happy to share guidance, contacts etc… perhaps it would be easiest if we had an understanding of what it is that you'd like the WMF staff to be less involved in that has driven the willingness to fund this stipend? Or am I misunderstanding, totally.
[09:52am] Asaf_: effeietsanders: no, I think externals are fine, on certain tasks. The Israeli experience certainly suggests so.
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[09:54am] gbyrd: I think the question for us is, How do we know there are enough able members of the organizing team to implement a successful Wikimania?
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[09:55am] • Philippe nods
[09:55am] Philippe: okay, that makes sense to me.
[09:56am] bnewstead: Let me also provide some thoughts. WMF is very supportive of Wikimania and we see it as a vital annual event. We are also really supportive of it remaining a community and volunteer-run event, even as it grows in complexity. We do think that the challenge of running Wikimania is increasing and that the organizing teams need a range of capabilities. I would say that we are concerned about...
[09:56am] bnewstead: ...creating a situation over time where organizers might become overly reliant on WMF - either as the funder or as a provider of organizational capacity.
[09:56am] harej: Not just members, but self-motivated members!
[09:56am] effeietsanders: ok, so it is about evaluating whether they can actually execute rather than whether it is locals/internationals/externals etc, as long as they have a clear plan to do it?
[09:56am] gbyrd: Yes.
[09:56am] bnewstead: effeietsanders: yes.
[09:57am] effeietsanders: ok, clear
[09:57am] • Philippe nods. That makes sense.
[09:57am] effeietsanders: then I would strongly agree
[09:57am] Asaf_: and past experience is highly relevant to that.
[09:57am] root-80686_Jury: definitely
[09:57am] Philippe: External = okay, provided that the team can reliably manage externals, etc..
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[09:57am] bnewstead: Why is WMF concerned, you might ask?
[09:57am] hk_28481k: And which particular Wikimania concerns the WMF?
[09:57am] Asaf_: e.g. we'd expect a winning bid to come from teams (or at least be backed by chapters) that have organized events on a larger scale than a meetup.
[09:58am] root-80686: oh, we have seen WMF being the fire brigade for a Wikimania
[09:58am] Philippe: hk_28481k: I don't think they've said that any certain one concerns them
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[09:58am] Asaf_: We're not referring to any specific bid. I haven't even read the bids.
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[09:58am] Asaf_: (yet)
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[09:59am] gbyrd: The main concern is that the event is getting bigger every year, which requires a greater range of skills and volunteers.
[09:59am] hk_28481k: I didn't mean bids, but particular past experiences.
[09:59am] bnewstead: We really don't want to get into criticism of Wikimania bids or previous Wikimanias, that isn't our point here...
[09:59am] effeietsanders: gbyrd: the first question should be: does it have to get bigger every year
[10:00am] effeietsanders: I'm personally not so sure of that
[10:00am] Asaf_: but root-80686 is correct that the WMF has had to be a "fire brigade" on occasion.
[10:00am] jeromyu: It seems to me really depends where the WIkimania is host
[10:00am] Philippe: So, your request to us, then, is that we really focus on whether the bidding teams have the capability to execute the thing…. not just the thing that they bid, but the thing they are likely to get (larger or smaller)?
[10:00am] gbyrd: I personally believe it does not need to get bigger every year, but the trending is suggesting otherwise.
[10:01am] hk_28481k: Makes sense.
[10:01am] gbyrd: Yes.
[10:01am] root-80686: as we want to be inclusive as possible - in terms of volunteers and participants - it is logical to grow bigger and bigger
[10:01am] Asaf_: philippe, yes. Taking into account, as much as possible, the vast number of things organizing Wikimania includes, and really trying to assess (it's hard, of course), whether the bidding teams could manage that complexity.
[10:01am] root-80686: which is - from that perspective - very good
[10:02am] Philippe: Asaf_: thanks. That says it better than I did.
[10:02am] root-80686: I don't think that Wikimania needs to be fancier and bigger in terms of expenses and program
[10:02am] bnewstead: Yes, Philippe. My feeling is that there should be some demonstrated capabilities either through the cumulative work of the group or through the qualifications of the bid team (including external partners who might be pre-committed).
[10:02am] Asaf_: That's what we wanted to share. Thanks again for taking the time to meet with us.
[10:03am] root-80686: thanks for you time and support
[10:03am] Philippe: So, for instance, a "weak" bid team with a firm committment from an organization that has done similar things like this would help to balance some of your concerns?
[10:03am] effeietsanders: Are there any questions?
[10:03am] effeietsanders: (I certainly have one myself)
[10:03am] Philippe: (and then i'm done)
[10:03am] root-80686: ...and the valued input of course
[10:03am] bnewstead: I would also look at the group's plan for fundraising and sponsorships. Wikimania is becoming quite expensive and part of the success is in drawing in funds to support it.
[10:03am] Patricio: go ahead effeietsanders!
[10:03am] effeietsanders: I'm a bit unclear about the role WMF sees for itself regarding the financial responsibility for the event - could you elaborate on that?
[10:04am] bnewstead: I can.
[10:04am] effeietsanders: can bids rely on WMF to be the final financial responsible, or do they need to find another organization
[10:05am] bnewstead: The organizing entity is technically responsible for the finances of Wikimania...
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[10:05am] fscala_Naples: hi everyone, we were told it was not necessary to be here
[10:05am] bnewstead: WMF has provided a loan that can be converted to a grant if the funds aren't available to repay the loan. This amoun has been $100K for at least three years.
[10:06am] effeietsanders: fscala_Naples: it is not necessary, no worries - totally optional
[10:06am] fscala_Naples: ok, my vice just called be on skype saying that house was aflame...
[10:07am] Patricio: fscala_Naples, not at all
[10:07am] Philippe: There are no flames
[10:07am] Stefano_Naples: HURRY UP Ferdinando!!!
[10:07am] Stefano_Naples:
[10:07am] fscala_Naples: what a pity I had my red dress on...
[10:07am] Philippe: OK, Effe… did you have a followup?
[10:07am] effeietsanders: bnewstead: do you mean to say you see the financial responsibility is limited to 100k usd?
[10:07am] Philippe: why yes, yes he did
[10:07am] effeietsanders: (or whatever the new amount it)
[10:07am] bnewstead: Now, in reality, WMF does have some commitment to ensuring Wikimania doesn't fail due to lack of funds or that vendors get paid.
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[10:08am] bnewstead: This might create some risk, if an organizing group falls short financially.
[10:09am] bnewstead: effeietsanders: technically yes, but as I just noted, in practice...not necessarily.
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[10:09am] effeietsanders: The reason I'm asking, is that some of the bids are not backed by an organization that have a big budget - and the wikimania budget might be several times their normal annual budget. I can imagine some people would frown upon such organization taking the formal financial responsibility
[10:09am] Theo10011: HI
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[10:11am] bnewstead: effeietsanders: AFAIK, the organizations DO take on this risk, even if they are a lot smaller. Patricio would know definitively.
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[10:11am] effeietsanders: so if the wmf is not willing to technically (formally) back the organization - that might be considered a default serious disadvantage for all wikimania bids which are not organized in a country like the UK, Germany or France.
[10:12am] effeietsanders: (it is no criticism - just explaining the background)
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[10:12am] bnewstead: It isn't a question of *willingness*. This is how it has evolved.
[10:13am] effeietsanders: yeah, I know how it has evolved - I was indeed focussing on the scenario there would be a request for such scenario by a local team
[10:14am] bnewstead: Not sure it necessarily advantages the big countries. Mostly puts a premium on strong financial management and fundraising, which isn't a unique attribute of certain places. More an organizational skill set.
[10:14am] deryckchan: effeietsanders: i've been asked similar questions by non-wikimedians - WMF annual fundraiser brought in $20M; the entire wikimania costs $1M, why can't WMF just fund it.
[10:14am] effeietsanders: deryckchan: that is quite a different question actually
[10:14am] effeietsanders:
[10:14am] Philippe: I have about 7 $1M projects that all ask the same thing, deryckchan
[10:14am] Philippe: If we fund every project, there's nothing left for core operations.
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[10:15am] Theo10011: I'd like to know about those 7.
[10:15am] Asaf_: also, given that the potential for funding Wikimania from sponsorships and local support demonstrably does exist, it's a terrible waste of our donor funds to fund all of Wikimania from donation money, isn't it?
[10:15am] effeietsanders: deryckchan: what I'm asking is that *if* we think a local team can raise the funds, but would require formal financial backing of a financially stable organization - would the WMF provide that.
[10:15am] Asaf_: Theo10011: then please take it up with Philippe. That's really off-topic.
[10:15am] Philippe: Theo10011: question for another time, perhaps.
[10:16am] bnewstead: I think derykchan's question is fair, but probably for another day...regardless, the organizational requirements would still need to be high, although the fundraising requirements would come down.
[10:16am] deryckchan: i'm not advocating WMF should pay for wikimania, i'm just relaying concerns from outsiders who say "it's unconvincing wikimania, as a core WM project, needs any money from outside WMF & chapters"
[10:16am] Theo10011: Asaf_, I said it in jest. and how are you dictating what is offtopic.
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[10:17am] Asaf_: The WMF has been willing to advance teams money for down payments etc., and in general to provide some level of guarantee, but that does not equate with funding any percentage up to 100% of Wikimania.
[10:17am] bennylin: deryckchan: (some editors that I talked to explicitly doesn't like the idea the money he/she donated is being used for Wikimania)
[10:17am] Asaf_: Theo10011, I'm "dictating" it by reading the channel topic. We're here to discuss wikimania and its bids.
[10:18am] hk_28481k: What deryckchan suggests is that there could be some difficulties to convince potential sponsors why WMF won't fund it.
[10:18am] Theo10011: And I shouldn't be a part of it as a jury member?
[10:18am] effeietsanders: Anyway, I think my question is more or less answered, thanks Barry. If you don't mind, I got another one Less hard I hope. If needed, would the wmf have someone in-house who could help analyze the budgets of 2 or 3 bidding teams to see how realistic they are etc?
[10:18am] root-80686: Theo10011: please!
[10:18am] Asaf_: Theo10011, you should be part of the on-topic conversation. Are you really not seeing this, or are you in jest again?
[10:18am] Philippe: I think that's true, and speaks to Barry's suggestion that the financial and organizational history of the bid team is important.
[10:19am] Asaf_: I believe Garfield would _love_ to do that.
[10:19am] effeietsanders: (help the jury that is - and not in detail, but just give a rough look)
[10:19am] bnewstead: Re. effeietsanders's question: Garfield? Would you be willing to do this analysis?
[10:19am] gbyrd: effeietsanders: We can and will continue to provide assistance on these types of issues.
[10:19am] Asaf_: heh, I volunteered him.
[10:19am] Philippe: Excellent.
[10:20am] effeietsanders: great we may take you up on that then somewhere the coming weeks, gbyrd
[10:20am] root-80686: gbyrd: so can we expect a statement from your team anytime soon on the bids that are on the table right now?
[10:20am] effeietsanders: root-80686: I suggest we trim down to our 2 or 3 favorites first
[10:21am] gbyrd: root-80686: At the direction of the selection committee, this type of analysis can be done.
[10:21am] effeietsanders: and then ask
[10:21am] Asaf_: I think a better use of gbyrd's time would be to only analyze the finalists.
[10:21am] root-80686: effeietsanders: I thing Garfield's team should start now evaluation, then we have a result until we start finalizing the bidding process
[10:21am] deryckchan: Philippe: so that boils down to the same impending new requirement that some organization with big financial and organizational capability needs to back the bid?
[10:21am] Philippe: I think Effe has the right idea - to maximize the use of their time, we should trim it first.
[10:21am] bennylin: effeietsanders: would that be before, or after 29th of April (the annoucement)
[10:22am] root-80686: gbyrd, effeietsanders: I agree to Loedewijks suggestion to strip down and give you two or three bids you should look at
[10:22am] Philippe: deryckchan: not at all. simply that the bid team be composed of people with experience (and it can be non-WM experience) raising some money and managing budgets.
[10:22am] effeietsanders: bennylin: before
[10:22am] Philippe: i dont' think that's out of line, at all.
[10:22am] effeietsanders: deryckchan: I think the main point is that we need to be sure you can do what you promise
[10:23am] Asaf_: deryckchan, yes, it's not the size of the organization, it's the skill set, and, yes, the willingness to enter a financial commitment with confidence.
[10:23am] effeietsanders: just worded differently
[10:23am] effeietsanders: so if you say you can raise 200.000 dollar by sponsorships... we want to see why you think you can do that
[10:23am] effeietsanders: nothing different from the regular requirements
[10:23am] Philippe: (because it's seriously not easy)
[10:24am] Asaf_: (but also definitely doable, in most countries, depending on your skills and time commitment)
[10:24am] Asaf_: Alright, I think we're done?
[10:24am] effeietsanders: the same goes for Wifi by the way
[10:24am] effeietsanders:
[10:24am] Philippe: Amen.
[10:24am] Asaf_: effeietsanders, nah, the wifi NEVER works. It's a given.
[10:25am] Philippe: Thank you, Asaf_ , Barry, Garfield….
[10:25am] effeietsanders: if you say you will have 100Gb wifi...
[10:25am] effeietsanders: proof it
[10:25am] effeietsanders:
[10:25am] effeietsanders: obviously if you say there will be no wifi at all - that is proven quite easily
[10:25am] effeietsanders: but warning: it may hurt your bid!
[10:25am] effeietsanders: ok - other questions to barry, asaf and garfield?
[10:27am] effeietsanders: doesnt seem to be the case
[10:27am] effeietsanders: thank you all for being here!
[10:27am] effeietsanders: == END LOG ==