Wikimedia Australia/2008-12-07 meeting/IRC Log

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Please note that I arrived slightly late, so a few minutes of discussion at the start is not here. All times are Brisbane time.

02:11	TheLetterE	Craig :)\
	Lankiveil	hey
	TheLetterE	- \
	liam	yes - the BSB and account details are on the membership email
02:12	MarkHurd	Yes, I paid by DD.
	Lankiveil	have we started. Sorry, I forget that you lot insist on messing with the proper order of God's chronological time.
		liam changes nick to wittylama
	zero1328	Only a couple minutes, Craig
	Bduke	You can go to the bendigo bank and pay cash
	privatemusings	liam> how many do we have?
02:13		<- WaRpAtH has disconnected (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
	jayvdb		Lankiveil: 

02:14		-> Virusboy has joined wikimedia-au
		privatemusings wonders if the mic is on?
02:15	wittylama	check1 check2
	werdnum	privatemusings: We heard you, don't worry 
	privatemusings	thank you thank you, I'll be here all week /me goes back to corner.... 
02:16	Lankiveil	so an arbitrator, a bureaucrat, and a checkuser go into a bar...
	werdnum	04:06 < pfctdayelise> given that there are a large number of people here it would be great if people could keep the jokes and side comments to themselves, perhaps
02:17	wittylama	well... there's not much 'official' being said right now...
	privatemusings	just the hoi polloi getting figety, werd....
	Lankiveil	is there a separate channel or something where the real meeting is taking place?
	privatemusings	nope - this is it 
	zero1328	Where'd Brianna go? checking the numbers?
	privatemusings	prolly.....
	pfctdayelise	ok, seems to be no more general comments
	pfctdayelise	regarding corporate membership
		<- pfctdayelise has disconnected (Remote closed the connection)
02:18		-> pfctdayelise has joined wikimedia-au
	privatemusings	ah - looks like she lagged 'n left....
	privatemusings	welcome back 
	pfctdayelise	grrr, sorry
	zero1328	hmm.
	jayvdb	wb Brianna 
	privatemusings	lankiveil kept us amused with dirty jokes in your absence, bl
02:19	pfctdayelise	anyway I just noticed I forgot to post the minutes for the 2008-11-23 ctte meeting. must do that soon
		-> Orderinchaos has joined wikimedia-au
	zero1328	So anyway, what's the current number of members/pending people?
	pfctdayelise	current members almost 29, about 10 still to pay
	wittylama	"almost"?
02:20	privatemusings	does that mean 28 
	pfctdayelise	(almost= I have to update a couple of peoples' status)
	zero1328	29 counting the 10 pending or not?
	jayvdb	hi Orderinchaos 
	pfctdayelise	not counting
	wittylama	so - 39 have applied for membership. 
	zero1328	That's a good start
	pfctdayelise	approx
02:21	Lankiveil	out of interest, what's the rough split between "full members" and concession members?
	Lankiveil	if you can tell me
	wittylama	do we know how many members there are of the other smaller/newer chapters?
	Lankiveil	no need to mention names
	pfctdayelise	i haven't checked, but most are full
	Orderinchaos	hey jay 
	pfctdayelise	wittylama: check [[m:Wikimedia chapters]]
02:22	pfctdayelise	regarding corp membership
	pfctdayelise	we decided not to pursue this at this time, as recorded in the minutes for 2008-11-16
	zero1328	That makes it around $1500 in the kitty, from memberships
	pfctdayelise	"After discussion on wikimediaau-l, we seem to be cautiously in favour
	pfctdayelise	of working out a corporate sponsorship policy/agreement and cautiously
	pfctdayelise	against corporate membership at this time (not least because this
	pfctdayelise	would require a rules change at ~$70)."
	Lankiveil	zero: it will once those last ten people cough of their money
	werdnum	zero1328: $800 by my reckoning"
	privatemusings	is the $70 the sticking point, BL?
	werdnum	but maybe my multiplication sucks.
02:23	privatemusings	and roughly what're we thinking 'at this time' might be? (this year? first year in total? etc.)
	werdnum	Can I make the comment that we should not pursue the idea of "Pay WMA to 'look at' your articles" ever?
	pfctdayelise	please refrain from speculating on our bank account. jayvdb will have a financial report for the AGM. 
	zero1328	Duly noted
	pfctdayelise	"at this time" = this interim ctte
		Orderinchaos agrees with werdnum
02:24	pfctdayelise	once a ctte is elected they can revisit whatever issues they wish
	wittylama	werdna - I don't think anyone has ever suggested that nor will they.
	pfctdayelise	privatemusings: $70 is not the only sticking point but it is one of them
	werdnum	It was being discussed on the mailing list a few weeks ago.
	zero1328	wittylama, I think there was some odd mention on the mail list
	Orderinchaos	WMA should refer people with those sorts of queries to editors, and we have plenty in our membership - again no obligation
	pfctdayelise	we are interested in pursuing corp sponsorship
	pfctdayelise	AGENDA PLS
	privatemusings	I'd like to strongly support corporate membership plans....
02:25	privatemusings	I think they'll be a jolly good thing 
	Orderinchaos	when is the AGM btw?
	werdnum	Sponsorship = "Donation, with some recognition"?
	werdnum	Orderinchaos: that's on the agenda, for ater.
	Orderinchaos	ahh cool
	Orderinchaos	where is the agenda? 
	Bduke	We can explore sponsors and see how that goes without changing rules
	zero1328	see the topic
	Orderinchaos	ahhh
	Lankiveil	OIC: see Brianna's last message =p
		-> Confusing has joined wikimedia-au
02:26	Confusing	Anyone still here?
	pfctdayelise	If you want corp sponorship, help us form a policy/guideline for it
	werdnum	Confusing: yes, agenda is in the topic.
	Confusing	Cool. I will take a quick look.
	Lankiveil	BDuke: is there a difference legally speaking between "Sponsors" and "Corp Members"?
	Lankiveil	or are they just the same thing essentially?
	wittylama	member implies voting rights. 
02:27	Bduke	Sponsors are not members and have no rights under the rules
	Orderinchaos	im not sure why one would need to be a corporate member
	Lankiveil	probably for the sweet, sweet voting rights
02:28	pfctdayelise	if you want corp sponsorships, help us figure out what they should look like
	privatemusings	the interim commitee have closed the issue though?
	pfctdayelise	not right here or right now
	pfctdayelise	we closed the issue of corp membership
	pfctdayelise	not sponsorshup
	pfctdayelise	*ip
	jayvdb	I think it is fair to say that we wont have corp members for this AGM.
	privatemusings	gotcha
	Orderinchaos	cool
	jayvdb	the next committee might tackle it. up to them.
	pfctdayelise	ok more to say? can we move on?
	Lankiveil	I agree with John, I think it's too soon to look at the added complexity of having corp members right now, but we should be open to the possibility down the road
	Orderinchaos	i think event sponsorships are better / pose less COI than corp sponsorship personally
02:29	Lankiveil	but we probably should figure out a way to deal with sponsorships - we don't want to miss some useful cash just because we're not ready with a policy on the topic
	Orderinchaos	but yeah, I think we've probably discussed all we can on that 
	Lankiveil	yeah
	Orderinchaos	(ie pre-agm)
	Lankiveil	okay, I'm done on that.
	Orderinchaos		lankiveil: agreed

02:30	jayvdb	the COI side of things is quite important. our chapter should be founded on the people, and the committee elected by the people. if they then add corp members, it is the membership that have decided to do it. at the moment, we are just a temp. committee.
	pfctdayelise	regarding the website, not sure what update you want privatemusings 
	privatemusings	I just had a quick question 
	jayvdb	(agree.. moving on.. sorry for the late post to that thread 
	jayvdb	"e/c" ?
	werdnum	One point I wanted to make is that it should be linked to the memberdb -- I'm willing to donate a few hours to write the appropriate "AuthPlugin" interface to make that happen.
02:31	Lankiveil	I actually have some code lying around to do just that, werdnum
	jayvdb		Lankiveil: ?? you have worked with memberdb already ?

	privatemusings	(presumably this log will act as minutes ok, btw?) - we can hold you to that werd 
	pfctdayelise	werdnum: that would be lovely, but it might be tricky with usernames (because we said people do not have to supply usernames to become members)
	pfctdayelise	werdnum: email the ctte later about that?
02:32	werdnum	Okay, I'll discuss with you later.
	Orderinchaos	that seems like a reasonable plan (emailing the committee)
	privatemusings	so moving onto the website thingy....
	pfctdayelise	what is your question privatemusings 
	privatemusings	I just wanted to confirm who has 'editing' rights at the wiki...
	Lankiveil	Nah, I have written a plugin to basically overwrite the default Mediawiki logon code, used it for a couple of sites, once you have the DB schema handy it doesn't take long at all to fix up if you know what you're doing.
	privatemusings	presumably members are able to edit?
	privatemusings	(or will be?)
	pfctdayelise	it's accounts-only editing. yes, members will be granted accounts (through the RequestAccount special page)
	jayvdb	yes, members are able to edit
	privatemusings	coolio - so I'd just like to encourage members to do so! 
02:33	pfctdayelise
	pfctdayelise	ok
	pfctdayelise	privatemusings you also put "access to members details". what is this about?
	privatemusings	so signed up members are cool to start work on areas about activities, membership - anything really, I guess 
	werdnum		Lankiveil: We'll discuss later, via email.

	privatemusings	righto....
02:34	jayvdb	I see a few accounts already created on the wiki. so that is happening. 
	zero1328	The RequestAccount page should probably be noted after registration and possibly on the main page, as I wasn't aware of it until Brianna pointed it out on the mailing list
	privatemusings	I'm curious as to the policies about the information on the members list...
	privatemusings	who can access the full names and addresses etc.
	privatemusings	and how a member might go about applying for that info. etc.
	pfctdayelise	there is a members record
	pfctdayelise	which we have to keep by law
	privatemusings	the privacy of identity is an issue for me - and some others I've chatted briefly with 
02:35	pfctdayelise	other members can request to access it, and copy details from it (to contact members)
	pfctdayelise	members will only be able to access it by visiting me in melbourne
	pfctdayelise	or visiting the secretary at any given time rather
	privatemusings	and by law you have to allow that....
	pfctdayelise	yes
	privatemusings	so any member rocking up to your place can get the full names and contact details of all other members.....
	pfctdayelise	it's so that the ctte can't go insane and stop members calling a SGM to sack them
02:36	pfctdayelise	names and addresses. not email adds I think
	pfctdayelise	and copy them by hand, yes
	jayvdb	bottom line is ... members details are accessible to other members.
	Lankiveil	maybe we should elect a secretary that lives on a cattle station in Western Queensland, should solve the privacy issue quite tidily!
	wittylama	i think PM's concern is not his email address - but his name. 
	jayvdb		Lankiveil: 

	privatemusings	I think it's an issue a bit larger than just me (which is no biggie)
02:37	privatemusings	particularly given folk like blissy who are aussie...
	privatemusings	and other concerns about 'stalking' and 'outing' in general....
	pfctdayelise	we are a group grounded in the australian legal system
	jayvdb	we are not going to be a secret society where even members dont know who are members.
	zero1328	Given that it's required by law, it can't be helped
	pfctdayelise	no wiki editor is forced to join
	werdnum	I'm not sure it's all that profitable or worthwhile to try and sidestep the rules by doing something like that.
	privatemusings	coolio 
	werdnum	If you join, other members can find out your details. End of story, really.
02:38	privatemusings	It's something for individual editors to consider - and it helps to be clear that the details have to be available to all other members.....
	pfctdayelise	obviously i would expect any member who abused this access to be summarily removed -- I would support removing them, at least
	Orderinchaos	same
	Lankiveil	obviously
	zero1328	Well duh
	privatemusings	heh... what's 'abuse' though? - but that's for another day....
	pfctdayelise	do you have more questions on this privatemusings ?
02:39	Lankiveil	can we back up a little - if one wishes to peruse this list, they essentially have to either live in Melbourne, or be willing to travel to Melbourne, is that correct?
	Bduke	Could I just comment that it seems to be very rare for members to ask to see the list.
	pfctdayelise		Lankiveil: that's our plan at the moment

	privatemusings	not many members organisations have our issues with identity though....
	jayvdb	all requests will be viewed with suspicion! 
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	pfctdayelise	we are not taking all the issues from wiki editing and transferring them our org privatemusings 
	wittylama	or identity privcy
02:40	privatemusings	heh... well *you're* not 
	pfctdayelise	again, WMAU members != wiki editors and vice versa
	Lankiveil	there's no real facility for an editor who lives in say, Townsville or Perth, to scrutinise the list then?
	zero1328	The connection between your name and your wiki nick is not connected
	Lankiveil	you know, in case the Melbourne organisation goes crazy and we have to call an SGM
	Confusing	Basically, it will be hard for anyone but the secretary to get the member details without raising suspicion, and hopefully we will always elect secretaries we can trust.
	zero1328	Well, it's optional anyway
	privatemusings	I should note that WMUK have had issues in this regard...
	Lankiveil	I'm not saying it's very likely, it just seems, I dunno, a bit funny to me
	pfctdayelise	Confusing: the ctte receives each member application, which includes address, so really it is ctte accessible rather than secretary
02:41	privatemusings	fwiw - I'd treat the details as public knowledge really...
	pfctdayelise		Lankiveil: well we have a strange balance to work out. it's not set in stone but currently that's where we're at.

	Confusing	Fair enough. But certainly any ordinary member who shows up at your place and says "show me the list" will probably raise a flag, right?
	Bduke	i
	werdnum	I'm not sure that the worst-case "What if everybody goes crazy" situation is worth spending significant time discussing.
	pfctdayelise	any ordinary member who shows up at my PLACE rather than a meeting of some kind will raise a lot of suspcision 
02:42	Confusing	Well, whatever 
	Orderinchaos	I tend to agree with werdnum... its purely a hypothetical
	Lankiveil	well, yes. I'm just wary of a balance developing that is overly tilted towards one particular city or group of members.
	zero1328	Yeah, this is all speculation
	Lankiveil	I'm not actually expecting it to happen
	privatemusings	(just quietly - suspicion doesn't come into it, because all members have a legal right to the full details of all other members)
	Lankiveil	anyway, it's not worth getting really worried about, as far as I'm concerned.
	privatemusings	as long as that's open - all is well 
	pfctdayelise	enough on this?
	zero1328	Lets move on
	privatemusings	one quick bit more...
02:43	Orderinchaos	pm: keep in mind we allow PO box addresses and things, so we've already put in a lot of safeguards.
	privatemusings	is there any policy in regard to membership info sharing with the foundation?
	privatemusings	(probably too soon.. thought I'd ask though....)
	pfctdayelise	privatemusings: currently no.
	Orderinchaos	sarah has i believe offered to let others use her po box for WMA purposes and once I get mine I'm happy to do the same for Perth based members
	privatemusings	so it may be, it may not be... issue for the next committee?
02:44	privatemusings	hmmmm... are you sure that's kosher oic?
	jayvdb	privatemusings: yes, and members will expect to have input into those policies
	Orderinchaos	the only requirement is that people are contactable at the address.
	pfctdayelise	the address is recorded for contact purposes
	privatemusings	coolio on all fronts 
	Lankiveil	if that's kosher, I'm happy to make the same PO Box offer for Brisbane people
	Kamping_Kaiser	hi all. meeting started?
	werdnum	Yes, a while ago.
	Lankiveil	if anyone is seriously worried about it - although then you'd have to trust me to pass anything on 
	pfctdayelise	yes,
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02:45	Kamping_Kaiser	werdnum,  oh. i didnt look like a meeting was running
	pfctdayelise	exactly. at some point you have to trust someone. or if not, then you prob should not join anything, ever
	Lankiveil	precisely.
	Orderinchaos	yeah if people are absolutely paranoid about this sort of stuff there is always the option simply not to join and just keep editing on wikipedia. ive heard that from one or two people over this way (WA)
02:46	Lankiveil	realistically, I think the consensus is that it's a non-issue
	pfctdayelise	most activities, people will be able to participate without being members, i envisage
	pfctdayelise	wmau is not members-only, this channel is not members-only
	Orderinchaos	one doesnt have to be a member to, for example, participate in these open meetings on IRC or contribute ideas to WMA or help out
02:47	Orderinchaos	like if we do get an event off i anticipate quite a few non members will probably help us out (probably even non wikipedians - like long suffering spouses/SOs :D)
	Lankiveil	hahaha
	pfctdayelise	is that enough on this topic?
	Bduke	Or even pay a donation. You just could not vote
	Orderinchaos	yes i believe it is enough
	Orderinchaos	bduke: indeed.
	Lankiveil	yeah, I think we've exhausted any useful discussion on this topic for now
	werdnum	pfctdayelise: yes, more than enough.
	zero1328	Yes, please, lets move on
	pfctdayelise	ok
02:48	pfctdayelise	I put 'CC booklet', referring to
	pfctdayelise	as yet undecided on the title still 
	privatemusings	returning to AGM later?
	pfctdayelise	as you may have read this is something we're doing with Creative Commons Australia
02:49	pfctdayelise	oh crap. my bad
	pfctdayelise	let's talk AGM now
	Lankiveil	hehe. We can see what Brianna's pet project is =p
	pfctdayelise	we need 14 days notice for the AGM
02:50	pfctdayelise	so to hold one before xmas we should decide extremely soon
	pfctdayelise	I think it could be good to discuss on the members ML, to maximise availability
	werdnum	I'd prefer pre-Dec-29, because I'm leaving the country then (maybe). That might not be possible, though.
	Orderinchaos	yeah we've got this odd problem again of the dispersed population, and the extreme difficulty of organising meetups based on any kind of notice
	pfctdayelise	another point is that we can conduct the elections trhough memberdb, if we want to
	Lankiveil	well, the only reasonable day that I can see us doing it before Xmas would be Dec 21
	Lankiveil	which is two weeks exactly
	pfctdayelise	that won't happen
02:51	Lankiveil	yeah
	Lankiveil	I think we should aim for January
	Orderinchaos	no way we'd be ready by then.
	werdnum	Forgive my ignorance -- what exactly is *necessary* prior to an AGM?
	pfctdayelise	14 days notice to members
	pfctdayelise	and a set agenda
	Orderinchaos	nominations for the committee too
	pfctdayelise	for us would only be normal stuff i think
	Orderinchaos	which would have to go out prior to the agm
	zero1328	There will probably be several absences due to Christmas, so it's really either what Craig said, or January sometime
	Lankiveil	in terms of the meeting, booking rooms and locations for the meeting in several different cities
	Bduke	I think we should decide on a day just after Australia Day and that gives us time fir nominations to come in and places to be booked in various places
02:52	Orderinchaos		lankiveil: last time we tried to do this in perth, we fell back to two people and neither turned up 

	Kamping_Kaiser	hold it at LCA 
	Orderinchaos	some sort of skype thingy might work better
	pfctdayelise	well do we want to make it in person like the incorp meeting or make it mostly online?
	werdnum	Some time after about midday would be preferable for me - I'm going to be in San Francisco.
	Lankiveil	Orderinchaois: When we did it, we got a fab room at the State Library, but we had to kick some cute girls out who had probably booked it fair and square
02:53	Orderinchaos	yeah we were going to do it at either our state library or one of the unis, but internet access was likely not possible, we were just going to do it by speakerphone in the end
	zero1328	Uh, Craig, we were the ones who booked it...
	Lankiveil	TheLetterE was cool enough to get a laptop with wireless internet, and then we used Skype to call onto the party line
02:54	Lankiveil	after we set up the computer and all, it worked very well
	pfctdayelise	LOL, party line
	Orderinchaos	parrrrrty line
	privatemusings	I think as soon as humanly possible would be a good thing.....
	pfctdayelise	privatemusings: are you going to become a member? because if not, the AGM is one thing that is truly members only
02:55	Orderinchaos	i think anything from perth would probably be on an individual basis
	Orderinchaos	just because everyone here is so busy
	pfctdayelise	well if we want to leave time to organise in-city things, then prob mid-late jan is best
	Lankiveil	agreed.
	Orderinchaos	and myself, mark ryan and gnangarra are the only WMA people over here as far as I know
	TheLetterE	before work gets busy again! pleaseee 
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	jayvdb	hi DanielB 
	DanielB	lol, my computer has stopped randomly popping up tabs in firefox, so I'm here 
		-> drivamgr2005 has joined wikimedia-au
02:56	TheLetterE	DanielB, my trick? 
	DanielB	TheLetterE, very much so 
	DanielB	danke E
	DanielB	ok, dont let me derail you.
	Confusing	I think I'm still the only member here in Canberra, so unless I went to Sydney for it (which is not entirely out of the question) I'd just be phoning it in from home.
	pfctdayelise	DanielB: discussing agm dates
	TheLetterE	no problems.
	Lankiveil	I've just been informed by Zero that my version of events in the above story is incorrect, and that I booked the room but evidently forgot about it =p
	pfctdayelise	remote phone in should be fine
	TheLetterE	great
02:57	TheLetterE	we shall do that again Craig?
	TheLetterE	or are we going to pack bags this time? 
	Lankiveil	yeah, I thought it worked good, if you can get the laptop again
	DanielB	pfctdayelise, cool-o. im retransfering the funds tomorrow but ive got an appt with someone from ANZ tech on Tuesday at 10:00 to look at what's going on, because two eBay transfers have also not gone through e-Banking.
	TheLetterE	sure thing
	DanielB	(I did all three via electronic login, not manually at the branch)
	pfctdayelise	what about like sunday 11th jan?
	DanielB	if two go through, consider it a donation.
02:58	Lankiveil	hopefully we can use the opportunity to inconvenience more cute girls. Once we've got a date set we'll bother everyone else about it on the mailing list rather than bothering everyone else here about it
	privatemusings	maybe someone who's not intending to stand for the new committee could knock up some pages on the wiki to allow folk to stick their hands up?
	TheLetterE	pfctdayelise, sounds fair.
	privatemusings	Lank - you planning on standing for the commitee?
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	Lankiveil	I'm a glutton for electoral punishment. Perhaps, depends who else runs.
	pfctdayelise	privatemusings: what are you talking about? stick their hands up for what?
	DanielB		Lankiveil, I noticed 

	pfctdayelise	returning officers?
	DanielB	No, committee members I think.
02:59	werdnum	pfctdayelise: for committee..
	privatemusings	yup 
	pfctdayelise	well as I said, we can actually run that though memberdb, if we want
	TheLetterE	polls?
	Lankiveil	do we need to have a formal vote at the AGM for that?
	pfctdayelise	LUV and Linux Australia use memberdb to conduct their elections
	Orderinchaos	i'm hoping to stand as well, as i think we need diverse geographical representation and i do have the time and means to help
	Lankiveil	or can we run it through memberdb, read out the results at the AGM, and have everyone approve the results or something?
03:00	TheLetterE		Lankiveil, sounds alright.\

	pfctdayelise	the rules don't say anything about how the election needs to be conducted AFAIK
	MarkHurd	No mention of RO?
	werdnum	RO?
	pfctdayelise	oh yeah...
	DanielB	returning officers
	pfctdayelise	they are mentioned
	bainer	the procedure is essentially up to the returning officer
03:01	pfctdayelise	"Each centre must have a Returning Officer, appointed by the Secretary, to report attendance and numbers voting on each resolution."
	jayvdb		Lankiveil: that sounds like a nice approach

	werdnum	ah, I see.
	privatemusings	maybe the existing committee can appoint a returning officer and we can head for Jan 11th?
	Lankiveil	we'd need a returning officer for each city
	zero1328	The ROs were appointed at the last AGM
	pfctdayelise	we don't need to appoint them ahead of time i think
	jayvdb	pfctdayelise: you can be the returning officer for the "memberdb" votes ?
03:02	pfctdayelise	jayvdb: no, since I'm intending to run
	Lankiveil	ie: at the last meeting, I tallied the results of the Brisbane people and communicated that to Brianna through the phone
	jayvdb	ah
	jayvdb	right
	pfctdayelise	but I think we should do apractice run with memberdb
	pfctdayelise	a fake election, to get used to the software
	jayvdb	I agree
	Lankiveil	that sounds wise
	MarkHurd	Yep.
	jayvdb	but ... not this week ! 
03:03	jayvdb	im tired of fake votes!
		DanielB has exams this week.
	DanielB	jayvdb, lol.
	DanielB	irony factor 9.6
	Lankiveil	I think having a combination of memberdb votes AND then more votes at the AGM would be too much
	Lankiveil	we either go one way or the other
	DanielB	well, we can all just use the proxy forms in memberdb
	Lankiveil	I mean, it's not like any members of WMAU don't have internet access to vote with
	pfctdayelise	right
03:04	pfctdayelise	memberdb voting can be done ahead of time which is good for members who can't attend an agm meeting
	TheLetterE	they have to have some kind of internet to register 
	DanielB	TheLetterE, we also accept registration carried by pidgeons.
03:05	Orderinchaos	yeah what one maybe could do
	DanielB	Mailmen are right out.
	Orderinchaos	is have all the voting online thru memberdb
	zero1328	Registering offline is possible I think? But at this point in time I'd assume all of us used the online forms
	pfctdayelise	ok, so those are some rough plans
	bainer	DanielB: singing telegrams?
	Orderinchaos	but those who for whatever reason aren't on memberdb can vote by proxy
	Orderinchaos	would that be through the chair or through any member (provided appropriate safeguards were set up to ensure the proxy carrier doesn't simply vote twice in their own preference)
	DanielB	bainer, provided it takes the form of a poem, preferably a haiku
	Lankiveil	can I assume that voting is not in the form of a secret ballot?
	pfctdayelise	um, everyone will be on memberdb 
03:06	Orderinchaos		Lankiveil: probably "secret ballot to the best of our ability acknowledging some major limitations" is the best policy IMO

	Lankiveil	sounds fair
	MarkHurd	I'm a director of a public listed company and one issue we have is proxies being submitted for shareholders who do actually turn up too. It is mitigated by
	DanielB	I wish to become / a member of, um... / Wikimedia Australia cos / it's so awesome.
	Bduke	Voting has to be at the AGM in such a manner as the committee may direct - Rule 23 (6)
03:07	Orderinchaos	some votes won't be entirely secret, but it may be that only the secretary or some other officer may know - i wouldn't support a system where everyone knows how some people voted
	TheLetterE	lol DanielB
	DanielB	We direct you to vote against an Eastern European bloc, for irony's sake.
	MarkHurd	a show of hands at the AGM, and when that's close we go to the shareholderregister.
	Lankiveil	haha
		DanielB glances at jayvdb for a reaction.
		Orderinchaos giggles
	Lankiveil	I was trying to make the Armenia joke, but couldn't frame it as well as DanielB, bravo good sir
	pfctdayelise	ok this meeting has been going over an hour
	DanielB	danke
03:08		DanielB shuts up now.
	TheLetterE	I'm going to have to head off early, might be back, if not, nice seeing you all.
	Lankiveil	okay, lets get back on topic
	Lankiveil	dates?
	Orderinchaos	(the candidates are x, x, x and a token armenian.)
	Lankiveil	late January?
	jayvdb	DanielB: 
	pfctdayelise	jan 11?
	Lankiveil	that suits me as good as any date
03:09	DanielB	sure...
	zero1328	Jan 11 sounds fine
	pfctdayelise	this is not us deciding, btw 
	DanielB	if it was jan 18 i might have been in melbourne 
	pfctdayelise	the ctte sets the time and date. but I'm sure if it works for everyone here then that will be a good start
	pfctdayelise	jan 18= thurday. bit random!
	privatemusings	I want to say with a smile that I think the AGM has probably taken a bit longer to get together than it might've - so as soon as possible would be a good thing, i reckon 
	Lankiveil	yeah, just as a rough show of hands I think that Jan 11 seems to be okay with everyone
	DanielB	pfctdayelise, it isnt 
03:10	DanielB	you're looking at jan 08
	Confusing	No problem for me
	Kamping_Kaiser	jan 11/18 seem to be ok for me.
	zero1328	Jan 18 is a sunday, as is 11th
	Lankiveil	so I think that should be our "recommendation" to the ctte
	pfctdayelise	DanielB: i was looking at dec 18. my bad 
	privatemusings	The interim committee will have to confirm this of course....
	DanielB	pfctdayelise, *fail*
	privatemusings	d'ya reckon they can do that this week though?
03:11	DanielB	we only need to give 14 days
	Lankiveil	that's a minimum right?
	DanielB	so it could, in theory, be done at any time up until christmas
	pfctdayelise	likely enough. depends if we need a meeting to decide. hopefully we don't,
	DanielB	yeah, minumum
	Lankiveil	I mean, they could announce an AGM for Jan 11 today, if they wanted?
	DanielB	minimum*
	privatemusings	let's lock it in asap, I reckon 
	pfctdayelise	well the whole point of making it advance is so poeple can arrange venues. so leaving it later wouldn't make sense 
	DanielB	no, it wouldnt, but if there's a good reason to wait beyond this week, then we can.
03:12	DanielB	there likely isnt a good reason, but it isnt a MUST HAVE DATE BY FRIDAY thing
	privatemusings	I guess that's up to the interim committee...... 
	Kamping_Kaiser	late am, if the ctty want feedback on preferred time 
	pfctdayelise	ok
	DanielB	<AntiSpamMeta> Medium risk threat [#mediawiki]: werdnum - using the DC.C SE.ND exploit; ping flyingparchment, RichiH, AfterDeath, dave2, and troubled
	DanielB	tsk tsk
		DanielB tsks at werdnum
03:13	werdnum	Please keep that elsewhere.
	pfctdayelise	DanielB: please keep on topic
	zero1328	We should really cut down on side comments and such; we're kind of taking alot of time already
	pfctdayelise	I wanted to ask if people think setting regular IRC meetings like this would be useful/interesting?
	werdnum	Possibly, although preferably shorter.
	Lankiveil	I think if we had them more often (so we had less to discuss), they'd run a lot shorter
	zero1328	I don't know why they stopped, actually
03:14	Kamping_Kaiser	pfctdayelise, if organised/run a little better
	privatemusings	hopefully the interim committee can confirm the date of the AGM well before christmas then 
	DanielB	well, i cant exactly understand why this needed to be irc. no discussion here is binding, and why couldnt people have just emailed in to the ml regarding the AGM...?
	privatemusings	re: IRC - I'd say just come in the channel if you want to....
	pfctdayelise	would you prefer meetings with set agendas or just kind of "show up and talk about whatever" meetings?
	pfctdayelise	DanielB: they could have
	pfctdayelise	organising via irc is only slightly less painful than organising via ML
03:15		pfctdayelise has not yet mastered the art of how to run an IRC meeting
	DanielB	yes, but it has the "must be online and using irc at that time" factor.
	pfctdayelise	it's extremely hard
	zero1328	I think there should be both types of meetings
	werdnum	I think we've all observed that it's difficult 
	pfctdayelise	DanielB: the benefit is that it is a conversation. using a ML for conversation = painful for everyone else.
	Kamping_Kaiser	pfctdayelise, i think having $time that the regular meeting happens is ok. if theres somthing to talk about, talk about it. if theres not, have a discussion (or skip it :))
	privatemusings	and at the point we're having a meeting about what meetings to have, I gotta disappear 
	privatemusings	thanks all......
		DanielB thinks this thread needs more rhyming from the likes of bainer.
03:16	werdnum	The problem with IRC meetings is that you run through a lot of stuff that not everybody's interested in.
		<- privatemusings has disconnected ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]")
	werdnum	On the mailing list, you can just skip over those threads.
	Lankiveil	I think that's a problem with meetings, full stop.
		<- wittylama has disconnected ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]")
	DanielB	Do we need one of those conference phone thingies again?
	DanielB	ie. do I need to go and plead with educationau again? 
	pfctdayelise	yeah probably
	zero1328	That's even harder
	werdnum	Perhaps we could install LiquidThreads on the official wiki.
	Kamping_Kaiser	DanielB, wouldnt need to plead this time i think 
03:17	DanielB	no, ill just bribe them with some WMAU cash...I mean, um...DISREGARD.
	Kamping_Kaiser	hhehe
	DanielB	(sarcasm, if anyone missed it...)
	Lankiveil	heh
	Lankiveil	are we still going to be proceeding per the agenda
	Lankiveil	or is the meeting over?
		Kamping_Kaiser walks past every day 
	zero1328	There's still things to cover, though
03:18	jayvdb	lets move on then ?
	Lankiveil	lets
	DanielB	Kamping_Kaiser, orly...
	pfctdayelise	meh, I would kinda like to leave 
	Lankiveil	heh
	Kamping_Kaiser	DanielB, yarly. twice (!)
	pfctdayelise	someone else could take over the minute the discussion?
	zero1328	So, about this booklet thing
	Lankiveil	I can continue running the meeting, if you like?
03:19	jayvdb	over to you Lankiveil !
	Lankiveil	hooray
	zero1328	So far it looks like only jayvdb has put his name down for what he's like to write about
	Lankiveil	okay, the CC booklet
	zero1328	And, if I remember correctly, it's should be completed by the end of the month?
03:20	pfctdayelise	that is the theory
	DanielB	what sort of topics are wanted/needed?
	pfctdayelise	i just wanted to say, i would really like people to volunteer to cover topics:)
	pfctdayelise	and then to actually do so 
	zero1328	There's also an issue on what kind of all-encompassing title it should be
03:21	zero1328	You've probably seen the mailing list talks
	Lankiveil	aye
	DanielB	lol @ open law.
	Lankiveil	the current title is very "work in progress-ish", but I didn't realise that Brianna has gotten such a nice little structure up
	zero1328	So I think there's three things to tackle here. The title, who's writing, and a proper deadline
	Lankiveil	bingo
03:22	Lankiveil	unless there's a miracle, I don't see it being finished by the end of this month
		DanielB will write...something?
	DanielB	ill take OER's
	Confusing	I'd like to contribute, but frankly I'd have no idea. About the only thing I think I know something about would be the free licenses section, but there'd be other people here with a better idea of that than me.
	pfctdayelise	don't just say so here
	pfctdayelise	say so on wiki
	zero1328	Brianna noted that each chapter is an independent subject, and we could simply cut down on the book if there's a problem
	DanielB	i am... 
	pfctdayelise	Confusing: not at all!!
	zero1328	Not saying that's the plan, though
03:23	Lankiveil	Confusing: I'm in the same boat, I'd love to help, but it's not my area of speciality
	Kamping_Kaiser	Confusing, get something down, and those people can refine instead of being scared away by all the work 
	pfctdayelise	Confusing: you can learn as you go. it's only an a5 page, not onerous
	Lankiveil	Brianna: if someone is interested in helping, should they just make a note on the WMAU wiki?
	DanielB	pfctdayelise, is the aim of "open" as in "open to contribute" or "open to reuse"?
	Lankiveil	or if they don't have an account, email you?
	pfctdayelise		Lankiveil: yep, that sounds great

	Confusing	Fine, call my bluff  So I'll try to write something, and then put it up once my wiki account is confirmed.
	pfctdayelise	DanielB: "open" where?
	DanielB	OER's
03:24	Lankiveil	just try and call the topic BEFORE you write the material, it would be a waste to write some brilliant prose only to find someone else has already written a good A5 primer on the topic
	zero1328	We should probably post a reminder about the booklet on either the mailing list or the member mail list or whatever it is
	Lankiveil	zero: good idea
	pfctdayelise		Lankiveil: there is no doc that covers this broad a range of topics

03:25	pfctdayelise	that I have noticed
	zero1328	Some are only on one or the other, I'd bet
	pfctdayelise	and I look for these kinds of things all the time
	Lankiveil	yeah, what I'm saying is that it would be a shame if ConMan and I both wrote a fab page on free licences, and we could only use one
	Lankiveil	for instance
	pfctdayelise	anyway I must get going now
	Orderinchaos	okay c u soon 
	pfctdayelise		Lankiveil: oh yeah, that's why people should mark what they are doing

03:26	pfctdayelise	thanks everyone for coming, hope you found it useful
	Lankiveil	aye
		jayvdb changes nick to jay|backin10
	Orderinchaos	sorry i've been quiet, i'm having major computer problems (anyone who knows anything about motherboards would be welcome to email/pm me btw)
	Lankiveil	thats cool. Does anyone else want to talk about the CC booklet?
	Lankiveil	or should we move onto the next topic?
	zero1328	Uh.. don't make it touch water, Orderinchaos 
	zero1328	Any ideas on the booklet title?
	Orderinchaos	it's only 5 days old and i've already had to refund one this week 
	Lankiveil	FUN FACT: motherboards don't work if you put them through the wash.
03:27	Orderinchaos	LOL
		DanielB thinks is becoming too much like -admins 
	Lankiveil	heh
	zero1328	<.<
	Lankiveil	back on topic... the booklet title?
	Kamping_Kaiser	cant we finalise the topic after the content is made?
03:28		<- drivamgr2005 has disconnected
		<- pfctdayelise has disconnected (Remote closed the connection)
	zero1328	I threw a few lame and extreme ideas on the mailing list, but hardly appropiate
	Lankiveil	I don't see why not.
	Kamping_Kaiser	doing title -> content seems a broken way to do things
	Lankiveil	see what the content is, and base the title on that
	Kamping_Kaiser	yep
	zero1328	Well, we already have some sort of idea of what kind of content it is
03:29	Lankiveil	even if we don't have much actual content yet.
	zero1328	Working out a title doesn't need to be immediate, but we should think about it while we're working on it
	Lankiveil	aye
	Lankiveil	in the interests of keeping things moving, I'd like to move onto the next topics...
03:30	Lankiveil	unless someone has been typing up a short novel on the best title for the booklet
	zero1328	What about a deadline?
	zero1328	We probably can't discuss that without brianna though
	Lankiveil	yeah
	zero1328	She's the go-to girl for working with CCau
03:31	Lankiveil	as she's the one driving it, she's probably the best person to bring those sorts of questions up with
	Lankiveil	sorry Zero, I'm going to move onto the ABS statistics now
	Lankiveil	otherwise this meeting will go all day
	zero1328	It's okay, I didn't have anyhting else to add
03:32	Confusing	Now this is something I do kind of know stuff about. But what do we want to discuss about it?
	Lankiveil	well, that was what I was going to ask
	Lankiveil	obviously, its tops that they're doing it
	Lankiveil	someone was going to compose a letter on our behalf congratulating them, weren't they?
	Lankiveil	*checks email* Liam, in fact.
03:33		jay|backin10 changes nick to jayvdb
	Lankiveil	I'd be interested in seeing if he's gotten any response yet
	zero1328	Do we need to do anything else besides a letter?
	Lankiveil	I talked about this a bit on the mailing list - obviously there's plenty of opportunity for us to now use this data in more creative ways
03:34	Lankiveil	I think the really interesting thing about this though is getting an australian government department to release open content
	Confusing	I'm not sure how much else we need to do with the ABS, but there's certainly a lot we can do using the announcement.
	DanielB		Lankiveil, PM 

	DanielB	oh, and the SES has also released all images taken by them (ie. the ones they have rights to) on their website as CC
03:35	Lankiveil	yeah
	Lankiveil	its a bit of a quantum shift in terms of the way government and quasi-government entities are approaching licencing their material
	Lankiveil	we should do everything we can to encourage others to do the same
	Confusing	In particular, I think it would be really nice if in about 3 or 4 months, it would be possible to see how this release has affected the use of ABS data, and possibly use that as an argument for other departments and organisations to look at this kind of thing.
03:36	jayvdb	can we set up a task force in the wikipedia project ?
03:37	jayvdb	to make use of the data
	Lankiveil	agreed, if we can convince them that it's a "good idea", the potential for getting our hands on other info increases
		-> gn has joined wikimedia-au
	Lankiveil	jayvdb: what sort of use do you envision for using the data on WP?
03:38	jayvdb		Lankiveil: we have pretty poor coverage of Aus stats topics

	DanielB	WS might benefit as well maybe 
	jayvdb	yea, WS would be an interesting angle
		-> Chris_G_ has joined wikimedia-au
	Lankiveil	the first thought that occured to me would be that it would be useful in doing maps, graphs and the like for articles
	Lankiveil	I like the WS idea too
03:39	jayvdb		Lankiveil: if we can start to work out what they have released, on a wikiproject page, we can start to figure out how it can be used

	Lankiveil	it depends what material they end up releasing, they say "a majority", whether these are raw stats or something else will probably determine what we can get out of it
	jayvdb	there are lots of ABS reports which are the principal basis of govt policy
03:40	Confusing	I suspect that pretty much everything that's already available as a free download will be released, which means all the basic stats themselves.
	jayvdb	for example,
	jayvdb	policy frameworks are not covered very well in Wikipedia
03:41	jayvdb	we do write about acts, and groups of laws
	jayvdb	but the policies and plans of each govt are rarely covered in detail
03:42	jayvdb	those are largely influenced by ABS reports
		-> wittylama has joined wikimedia-au
	Lankiveil	yeah. The potential for indirect improvement of WP articles is definitely there, as is the prospect for direct improvement of WS by hopefully including any reports they come up with and the like
	Lankiveil	ah, welcome back, Mr Lama.
	wittylama	ta. 
03:43	Lankiveil	we were talking about the ABS releasing their stuff CC
	Lankiveil	have you gotten any response from them yet?
	wittylama	no
	Lankiveil	(I figure probably no, but can't hurt to ask)
	jayvdb	is there a onwiki thread about this ?
03:44	Lankiveil	is there anything else anyone would like to bring up on this one?
03:45	Confusing	The other part of the announcement, that they're making some changes to the website, might also be of note for anyone who's been thinking of writing some WN articles.
03:46	Confusing	Other than that, I think that's most of what I have to say. If anyone's got questions on ABS stuff, I may have some idea.
	Lankiveil	okay
	Lankiveil	moving on then
	Lankiveil	"Education Tours"
03:47	wittylama	right
	Lankiveil	there's been a fair bit of discussion about this on the mailing list of late, does anyone else have anything that they'd like to bring up?
	wittylama	can you clarify what is meant by "education tours"? Are you referring to visiting High Schools?
03:48	Lankiveil	I believe so. Brianna didn't leave much more detail than that on the agenda.
	zero1328	I've been thinking that maybe we should compile a list of blue card policies according to state, somewhere
	zero1328	But there shouldn't be much difference
	wittylama	is she gone?
	Lankiveil	But I want to discuss this, so I'm choosing to interpret that as "high school visits", and also "doing presentations for education dept. staff"
	Lankiveil	yes, she had to leave
03:49	wittylama	what i'm finding out from the NSW Department of education is that you cant "register" an organisation
	Lankiveil	I thought we'd just run quickly through the rest of the agenda though.
	wittylama	there is no "list" of approved groups. 
	zero1328	Where'd you get the idea that one existed? I assumed it was the department of education
	wittylama	this kind of list only exists for in-school performances (music/theatre) etc. 
03:50	wittylama	I was told there was such a thing by a friend who works for the board of studies. 
	Lankiveil	keeping in mind that different states will probably have different ways of dealing with these things
	wittylama	It is up to the school principal to approve individuals - school by school basis. 
	wittylama	@ lankiveil - yes. indeed. 
03:51	Lankiveil	ahh
	Confusing	So, for example, Bell Shakespeare and Musica Viva get group "passes"?
	gn	is there a difference between working with students and working with teachers?
	Lankiveil	I think at this stage our efforts would be better concentrated working with teachers
	wittylama	yes. 
	Lankiveil	anecdotally, my sister is a high school teacher here in QLD
	zero1328	Students are minors, thus you need a "blue card"
	wittylama	working with students it is a strong encouragement to get a police check.
03:52	wittylama	working with teachers then you'll only need the approval of the principal. 
		<- Chris_G has disconnected (Network is unreachable)
	Lankiveil	and while I've corrected a great many of her misconceptions of what the project is all about, she must have got those ideas from somewhere. I worry that many teachers think the same way due to being misinformed.
	Lankiveil	zero: blue cards only exist in QLD I think
	Lankiveil	other states have their own mechanisms
	Confusing	I think that educating the teachers should be the first step, anyway.
		Orderinchaos is a teacher - well will be next year
	zero1328	That's how I refer to it, anyway
03:53	Lankiveil	yes. It seems if you want to work with kids, you'll need to go through a police check of some sort. Which is fair enough.
	wittylama	@ confusing - yes. This is also bureaucratically easier. 
	Orderinchaos	although i'll be working in the adult education field, i abandoned my 2007 plans to become a high school teacher  did several pracs though and had a good time and 
learned a lot
	zero1328	My sister tutors high school students in her spare time
	Orderinchaos	that's where I got the WWC card
	zero1328	just thought I'd throw it out there
	Lankiveil	yeah
	Orderinchaos <-- WA's mechanism
03:54	Lankiveil	I really think that working with teachers (ideally in a centralised setting at head office, rather than going to individual schools), is probably the best way to go
	zero1328	Anyway, this basically means that we might have to compile all the differences onto the WMAU wiki
	Orderinchaos	i dont think it would hurt WMAU to have a database of sympathetic people who have the full school clearance
	zero1328	Or at least make a page full of links
03:55	Lankiveil	OIC: sounds like a good idea
	Orderinchaos	doesnt mean we have to go to any effort to get more but if we have them on hand, then it's an additional resource
	Orderinchaos	a lot of random people who don't work in schools have the same level of clearance too
	jayvdb	can we write a wikipedia article about these cards ?
	Orderinchaos	eg people who employ <18 apprentices in various trades etc
	Lankiveil	yes, my understanding up here is that if you want to work with kids in any capacity at all, you'll need a blue card. But they're not that hard to get.
03:56	zero1328	It takes only a couple weeks, really
	Orderinchaos	yeah same in WA, you just apply and it comes through 6 weeks later, there's a payment for it and that's the only hurdle really
	Lankiveil ?
	zero1328	simple as something like renewing a driver's license
	Orderinchaos	well it's not called a blue card here
	Orderinchaos	mine's white and green 
	Orderinchaos	it's a blue card in NSW and QLD
	Lankiveil	some of my colleagues at work with a love of motorcycles, drinking, and other unwholesome activities have one. So I don't know how stringent they are.
03:57	jayvdb	can we _improve_ the wikipedia article about these cards ?
	Lankiveil	haha
	gn	basic no offenses against children is the standard
	Orderinchaos <-- WA info
	Lankiveil	okay. So we know that if we want to work with kids, we'll need one.
03:58	Confusing <-- NSW
	Orderinchaos	and some states define kids differently
	jayvdb	do we need two articles ?
	jayvdb	is this a state law ?
	Lankiveil	jayvdb: yes.
	jayvdb	perhaps we write articles about each state law
	jayvdb	and then the topical page talks about both ?
	Orderinchaos	it's either 13 or 16 or 18, and different states are in different stages of implementation - it's only been fully implemented in WA and TAS whereas it's in intermediate or beginning stages elsewhere
	Lankiveil	what about "Child Protection Cards in Queensland" or something?
	Lankiveil	or "in Australia", rather
	Orderinchaos	or child protection cards in australia with a subsection on each state
03:59	gn	are there the sources to write articles for each state
	zero1328	I also mentioned on the mailing list that you can be exempt from the blue card depending on what you're doing
	Lankiveil	again, depending on what state you're from
	Orderinchaos	this general article may be useful although could also be out of date
	Lankiveil	I think we probably should consider setting up a page on our wiki with the relevant guidelines for each state, so we know what we need to do
	zero1328	I said that twice, Craig.. <.<
	Lankiveil	as well as links and various other unencyclopædic material that may come in handy
	Orderinchaos	sorry was mistaken re tas 
04:00	Lankiveil	heh, in that case, I second Zero's suggestion
	Lankiveil	(and volunteer him to actually do it =p )
	zero1328	Uh, no thanks
	zero1328	We should probably contribute to our own state only; it'll be easier
	Lankiveil	for reference, here is the QLD requirements:
	Orderinchaos	almost all states that don't have a system do put all teachers and praccies through CrimTrac anyway, WWC is an extra level though
	Lankiveil	yeah
04:01	jayvdb	the current page should be the Qld page ? everyone agree on that ?
	Lankiveil	anyway, does anyone envision us teaching under-18s anytime soon anyway?
	wittylama	not really.
	gn	wouldnt think so
	gn	atm we need to focus on the teachers anyway
	Lankiveil	yes
	wittylama	although - it is quite possible that if we go in to talk to staff, they might say "stay and talk to the kids at lunch in the library" or somehting.
	zero1328	Not anytime soon, focus should be on the teachers and libraries first
04:02	zero1328	maybe the department of education itself, but I dunno
	Lankiveil	yeah
	Lankiveil	I think we should contact the relevant department in each state
	Orderinchaos	and dont forget the tafe's and UTs
	Lankiveil	letting them know who we (and by that I mean WMAU) are, what we do, and offer to hold talks or whatever
	Lankiveil	schools and TAFEs come under one dept. in Queensland, so that makes it easy for us
	Orderinchaos	and what I'd call the non trad education sector (in this state three high schools which specialise in mature age entry and run a lot of random adult education courses)
04:03	Orderinchaos	TAFEs strictly speaking are not under a department
	zero1328	I know TAFE, but UT?
	Orderinchaos	the curriculum is but the TAFEs are not
	Orderinchaos	university of technology
	zero1328	right
	Orderinchaos	basically half way between tafe and uni, they are a uni but run many tafe courses and non standard degrees
04:04	Lankiveil	not the case in QLD
	Lankiveil	DETA runs all the TAFEs in Queensland
	MarkHurd	An opportunity for the newly elected committee will be to promote WMAU at the various O weeks at Unis.
	zero1328	QUT?
	Lankiveil	trust me, I used to work with them =p
	zero1328	*shrug*
		Chris_G_ changes nick to Chris_G
	gn	thats going to be our issues, the differences in state structures
	Lankiveil	O Weeks are a fantastic idea
	Orderinchaos	how would it run the tafes when they're managed by federal legislation and have their own boards and 80% of their funding comes from corporate sector though?
04:05	wittylama	I'm very involved in the UNSW o-week programme. 
	zero1328	Anyway, basically we should be contacting and working with the departments first to build connections.
	Orderinchaos	(I found out when I applied for a job with one that I'm not a public employee when I joiin)
	Lankiveil	because, all TAFE staff are (state) public servants, are run by the state education minister, etc etc
	wittylama	and they are also running a wiki (not MediaWiki) to organise their stuff
	zero1328	It'll also clear up the state differences
	Lankiveil	they have the same ABN even as the state school department
	Lankiveil	this is in Queensland, I've every confidence it's different in every state
	Orderinchaos	in WA *no* TAFE staff are public servants - they're employees of the particular College eg West Coast College, Challenger TAFE etc
04:06	zero1328	Since the education systems are different according to state, we might have to work a bit more independantly, and compile it on the chapter wiki somewhere
	Orderinchaos	the govt doesn't even control them, they only audit them and set standards for them that they are required to meet
	Lankiveil	yeah, again, we need to be aware of any and all differences
	zero1328	Same for blue cards, like I said before
	Orderinchaos	and they seem to report equally to state and federal much like unis (which are established by state acts but administered by fed)
	zero1328	or whatever you call em
04:07	Lankiveil	well, we're getting a mite offtopic here, so can we move back to whether we have a strategy for talking to the departments?
	gn	would it be better then to have people responsible for gather each state information 
04:08	Lankiveil	yeah, one person per state
	Lankiveil	have the ctte empower them officially to make contact with the relevant departments,
	Lankiveil	and move from there
	zero1328	That's probably also connected with having a local contact for each state, anyway
	Lankiveil	aye
	Lankiveil	we should also pool our resources
04:09	Orderinchaos	i'm happy to be the local contact for WA
	Lankiveil	(slideshows, presentations, etc) between everyone
	zero1328	Sounds like something for the AGM, frankly
	Orderinchaos	i don't think either gnang or mark would mind
	Lankiveil	yeah, at this stage I don't think we need a great deal of structure
	Orderinchaos	(it's weird here - we have a strong editing community but just can't seem to interest anyone in WMA ... maybe we need to have some sort of idea for how to get wikipedia editors to join)
	gn	I be hapy to help OIC if need be
04:10	Orderinchaos	ah didn't see you there  lol ... that would be great
	zero1328	Orderinchaos, basically just more incentive
	Lankiveil	I'd be happy to do this for Queensland (as mentioned above, I have some contacts in he Education Department up here)
	Lankiveil	you know, once I'm wearing my WMAU hat and not just being "some guy"
04:11	zero1328	Would that WMAU hat be that bowler hat?
	gn	pith helmet at ani
	Lankiveil	yes. Just with a piece of paper with "WMAU" stuck to it.
	Lankiveil	don't make me go and take a picture of me in my pith helmet with "AN/I" written on it 
04:12	MarkHurd	OIC: If you meant me as a SA edu coord/contact, unfortunately that's a No, sorry.
04:13	Lankiveil	yeah
	zero1328	Instead of working it out right now, we should put a shout out on a mailing list, and work it out at the AGM.
	Lankiveil	we can discuss the actual people who would do it later
	zero1328	There might be more qualified or experienced people not here right now
	Lankiveil	but does that sound like a sound approach, to everyone?
	MarkHurd	Yep.
	gn	yeah I thinks its the best way forward
	zero1328	yeah
	Lankiveil	splendid
04:14	Lankiveil	okay, this meeting has been going on over two hours now... does anyone have anything they'd like to add on the topic?
	Lankiveil	if not we'll move onto the next item
	zero1328	Activities/direction? We were just talking about it
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04:15	gn	since I was in late whats been covered?
	Lankiveil	I think this was a more general item - not necessarily related to education tours
	zero1328	Yeah, I know, but still
	Lankiveil	gn: everything on except the last item
04:16	Lankiveil	also there seems to be a rough consensus for our AGM to be on January 11
04:17	Confusing	Well, on that topic, then, I was recently re-contacted by the Canberra Convention Bureau, just asking for a status update. I'll let him know that we've successfully incorporated and are starting to get ourselves organised, but I should I still see if we should pursue a "miniWikimania", for which we could then argue Canberra's case?
04:18	DanielB	lolcanberra
		DanielB runs.
	Lankiveil	heh
	zero1328	Hm... that's probably also significant enough to revisit in the AGM
	Lankiveil	this could be my way of convincing Mrs Lankiveil to visit Canberra (I've never been =( )
	Lankiveil	I fully support a miniWikimania, although I do wonder how many people would fly across the country to attend
	wittylama	despite the reputation - i'm a big fan of canberra. 
04:19		DanielB too. I was being sarcastic 
	Confusing	I'll take that as a positive enough response to pass on  thanks guys
	wittylama	and if you're into [free]culture then C'bra is where it's at. 
	gn	I would be interested in making the trip east for one
	DanielB	Can we storm up the hill to The Big House?
04:20	gn	can we bring tents and set up on the lawns?
	Lankiveil	I hear there's a really nice hall in the centre of Canberra that we could have the event in. It's underground, and has a big flag on top.
	Lankiveil	we just have to book it, and throw out any suits that happen to be in the meeting chamber when we get there
	wittylama	well - seriously, we do know a researcher at the ADFA academy. 
	Confusing	I know the one you're talking about. Looks like the seats are really cushy too.
	wittylama	he said he'd be willing to try and get us access to their meeting facilite
	wittylama	*facilities
04:21	zero1328	Just access or as a freebie/discount?
	Confusing	Cool, although ADFA is a little out of the way. There's also ANU, the Convention Centre (which is fairly new), or there are a few hotels with conference facilities.
	Lankiveil	there'd have to be a whole bunch of potentially venues in Canberra
	wittylama	didn't go into details but it was implied freebie - he knows we can't pay. 
04:22	gn	do we have enough people in canberra to do leg work before hand
	Lankiveil	and its not like it would be a huge event, I'd be surprised if we had more than say 50 people
	zero1328	I probably wouldn't come down there, personally
	zero1328	Unless I got a job <.<
	zero1328	cough
	Lankiveil	haha
	wittylama	in which case you'd be too busy working to come down anyway!
04:23	Confusing	gn: I think I'm the only WMAu member in Canberra, but there are quite a few Wikipedians/Wikimedians here who I could probably drag in, and people from Sydney could come down without too much difficulty.
	Lankiveil	I can only afford to have one WM-au person on my payroll. And Giggy already has that spot. Sorry zero =(
	zero1328	Meh, no worries
	Lankiveil	I think Canberra is nice in that it's a nice central location though
04:24	wittylama	sorry, can you explain that Lankiveil - re. payroll?
	Lankiveil	I mean, Perth or Melbourne would be cool, but either way, it's a long way from someone
	zero1328	Canberra's pretty much Convention city
	gn	Perth wouldnt work atm, 
	Lankiveil	witty: Sorry, just a little joke. Giggy has done some freelance work for my home business, and Zero said he wanted a job. Sadly, as much as I'd love to help, I don't have enough spots to employ anyone else right now.
04:25	zero1328	Perth is pretty inaccessible as it already is
	Confusing	I agree. Besides the fact that it means 0 travel for me, I think Canberra's a good choice in terms of centrality, education/information culture, and a few other things.
	Lankiveil	I think we should consider Perth sometime down the track... but not for the first event
	gn	honest assessment is we have good eds here but not enough worker bees to make something like this work
	zero1328	Yeah, Perth will require alot of work, definitely not something soon
04:26	zero1328	Oh yeah.. "Home business"?
	Lankiveil	I would like to see it rotated about (ie: not in Sydney/Melbourne every year), so Perth, Brisbane, Adelaide and the like all get a shot
04:27	Lankiveil	thats if we decide to make it an annual event
04:28	gn	yeah it needs to be rotated around, annual would be nice more likely bi-annual
	Lankiveil	aye
04:29	Confusing	I'll be happy when we get it running once.
	Lankiveil	anyway, I support in principle a mini-conference in Canberra
	Lankiveil	we can assess after the fact how well it was run, whether it was worth our time, etc
	gn	I agree in principle to canberra
04:31	Lankiveil	rad
		werdnum changes nick to werdna|away
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	zero1328	So,
	zero1328	Anything else?
04:32	zero1328	2.5 hours and running
	Lankiveil	nope, I'm more or less done
	Confusing	Nothing more from me.
04:33	zero1328	Well I guess that concludes the excessively long meeting?
	wittylama	right - see you all around. 
	Lankiveil	okay
	wittylama	(at the Sydney meetup!_
	zero1328	laters