Wikimedia UK/November 13th meeting on IRC

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A meeting took place on IRC on the 13th of November, 2005 to discuss progress on Wikimedia UK

5:55pm JamesF: Heya all.
5:55pm smoddy: Hi James
5:56pm JamesF: How is everyone?
5:56pm smoddy: sick, very sick
5:58pm Angela: I'm fine. Other than having to be in 2 meetings at once and not really being prepared for either.
5:58pm JamesF: Oh dear.
5:58pm JamesF: Angela> The Board meeting's now, too?
5:58pm JamesF: Or another one?
5:59pm cormaggio: Hi there
6:00pm cormaggio: I'm not sure how many will come to this meeting - VampWillow said she'd try to make it on time but might be late; Gordon already sent his apologies..
6:00pm Angela: JamesF: yes.
6:00pm cormaggio: Hmm - I thought the board meeting was yesterday, but anyway
6:01pm cormaggio: Angela> is the seed wiki idea on the agenda?
6:01pm JamesF: It was meant to be yesterday.
6:01pm Angela: Anthere couldn't make yesterday.
6:01pm JamesF: Yeah.
6:01pm JamesF: Angela> Is my report useful?
6:02pm Angela: Yes, it is. Thanks.
6:02pm Angela: Seed wiki is on the agenda now.
6:03pm cormaggio: yes, I just saw that
6:04pm cormaggio: what about our agenda here?
6:04pm cormaggio: should we wait around a bit longer?
6:05pm JamesF: has an early draft of the MoA sent by Alison.
6:05pm JamesF: But that was a week ago.
6:05pm JamesF: And she's probably re-written it a few times since.
6:06pm cormaggio: Angela> i set up m:Seed wiki and notified people who expressed an interest at the August open board meeting, ie Danny, Delphine, Yann and VampWillow..
6:06pm cormaggio: Ok thanks James
6:07pm JamesF: So, wait a bit seems the best option.
6:08pm JamesF: Having said that, I've only got about an hour-and-a-half...
6:08pm cormaggio: you mean for VampWillow?
6:08pm cormaggio: I reckon she'll be later than that..
6:08pm JamesF: Hmm.
6:08pm cormaggio: maybe..
6:08pm cormaggio: what can we discuss in the meantime?
6:09pm cormaggio: for my part, i've done nothing :-)
6:09pm JamesF: isn't sure. :-)
6:09pm JamesF: I've only read Alison's draft a few times and reviewed.
6:09pm JamesF: But we're going for the short-and-sweet version, so there's not much of it anway.
6:09pm JamesF: +y
6:09pm shimgray joined the chat room.
6:09pm cormaggio: is it not time to put something like that on-wiki so at least we can see what we're talking about?
6:09pm shimgray: evening all.
6:10pm cormaggio: hi shimgray
6:10pm JamesF: Cormac> I could put it up, certainly, but discussion might not be very pointful.
6:10pm JamesF: Cormac> Should I fire away nonetheless?
6:11pm cormaggio: i still think it might be beneficial for others, yes
6:11pm JamesF: OK.
6:14pm smoddy: when does this meeting start then?
6:15pm cormaggio: smoddy> it's a bit vague - we're kinda waiting for VampWillow, but she might be late and I'm waiting for James to put up the document they've been working on
6:15pm cormaggio: fire away with any ideas yourself though
6:15pm smoddy: I don't have ideas
6:15pm smoddy: I'm a voyeur here
6:16pm cormaggio: ok :-)
6:16pm shimgray: not the most enticing of things to voyeur at, surely?
6:16pm delphine: can someone put relevant links in the topic please ;)
6:16pm cormaggio: are you interested in helping out with Wikimedia Uk in some way, though? in what capacity if so?
6:16pm smoddy: shimgray> this is vaguely legal, though
6:16pm cormaggio: Delphine> OK :-p
6:17pm delphine: :P
6:17pm smoddy: cormaggio> certainly. I have a flair for writing emails, so I would like to do some kind of contact role if that's helpful
6:17pm cormaggio: that would help, certainly
6:17pm cormaggio: we'll need to do lots of that
6:18pm smoddy: I help on the info-en worldwide queue
6:18pm smoddy: (actually, I don't at the moment, because I got seriously depressed with answering the same emails, but there we ar)
6:19pm You changed the topic to "Meeting today at 18:00 UTC - see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK (and related links)".
6:20pm cormaggio: is that ok? I've made a template also for the top of related pages, for ease of navigation
6:21pm cormaggio: smoddy> I know what you mean - helpdesk has gotten ridiculous
6:22pm shimgray: It was a good idea, and worked decently for the dozen-a-day rate, but then it exploded...
6:23pm cormaggio: yeah, i think we just need to put up better help pages for a start..
6:23pm smoddy: I have been about to rewrite the help namespace for six months
6:23pm cormaggio: absolutely crystal clear and bog-simple information
6:24pm cormaggio: smoddy> maybe it's about time for a wikiproject?
6:24pm smoddy: that, my friend, is an excellent idea
6:24pm smoddy: it would be one of the most useful wikiprojects there would be
6:24pm shimgray: (that said, I'm writing to a guy just now who mentioned that he emailed helpdesk-l and never got a reply, which is making me a bit guilty about unsubscribing from it)
6:25pm cormaggio: :-)
6:25pm smoddy: damn, I'm not eligible for membership of WMFUK under the current bylaws
6:25pm cormaggio: i remember help on meta was the collaboration of the week - but we need to do more, i think
6:25pm cormaggio: smoddy> why's that?
6:26pm smoddy: I'm 16
6:26pm cormaggio: hmm
6:26pm cormaggio: i don't know why that's there - point taken
6:26pm delphine: cormaggio can't that be a ground legal requirement?
6:27pm cormaggio: i remember James mentioning it once though
6:27pm cormaggio: delphine> what's that?
6:27pm delphine: I mean, I don't know, but maybe being a member of an association of some kind requires you to be 18
6:27pm delphine: dunno
6:27pm smoddy: if it's necessary, perhaps junior membership would be a good idea, considering how many editors are u-18
6:27pm delphine: could be to prevent brainwash and such
6:27pm delphine: smoddy :)
6:27pm cormaggio: smoddy> you are now under our control..
6:27pm delphine: muwahhhhhh
6:28pm smoddy: I am under your control
6:28pm smoddy: you are my master
6:28pm JamesF: Umm.
6:28pm smoddy: prostrate himself
6:28pm delphine: \o/
6:28pm smoddy: sorry, James
6:28pm JamesF: We're sort-of discarding the bylaws themselves.
6:28pm shimgray: Not sure, I think you may have to have a specialised membership class... but you can join a union under 18, so no rational reason you can't join a charity.
6:28pm JamesF: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association
6:28pm JamesF: Sorry it took so long to reformat.
6:29pm JamesF: As I said, draft.
6:29pm cormaggio: ok, great, something to talk about
6:29pm JamesF: That's the vanilla version I got over a week ago.
6:29pm JamesF: I've made some changes myself.
6:29pm JamesF: Will incorporate those now, if that's all right.
6:29pm cormaggio: James> while i read this, is there any reason for making age of membership over 18?
6:30pm JamesF: But wanted the original in the edit history.
6:30pm smoddy: "The Companyís registered office shall be situated in England." - any particular reason why not Wales/Scotland/NI? incompatible encoding
6:30pm JamesF: Cormac> Legally binding contracts can't be signed by those under 18, so, yes.
6:30pm cormaggio: James> make any changes you like
6:30pm shimgray: smoddy: Keeps our options open if you have to pick one, I guess.
6:30pm JamesF: smoddy> No, but it's /highly/ likely that the Chair will live in England, and we have to pick one.
6:30pm cormaggio: Ah ok, smoddy, you have your answer
6:30pm shimgray: (finding somewhere else to get an address in England is easier than finding another in Wales)
6:31pm smoddy: I'm in Wales
6:31pm smoddy: gets touchy about these things
6:31pm shimgray: Yup. But the pool of Welsh wikipedians is substantially smaller than of English ones.
6:31pm smoddy: I believe it's three or four
6:32pm smoddy: fair enough, I just didn't know why we had to be so specific
6:32pm delphine: JamesF can't you have a line that says "the Company's office will be situated at the home of its chair?"
6:32pm delphine: that's what we have
6:32pm JamesF: I'm not sure.
6:32pm shimgray: FWIW, that's the same as the active number here in Edinburgh :-)
6:32pm JamesF: But that is where it would be, yes.
6:33pm JamesF: We'd have to have either England or Wales.
6:33pm JamesF: Of course.
6:33pm delphine: JamesF if that's ok, then anyone can be chair, whether situated in England or Wales or whatever
6:33pm delphine: and smoddy can be happy :P
6:33pm cormaggio: yes, Up Wales
6:33pm smoddy: heh
6:33pm cormaggio: I'm Irish, so I'd have to say that
6:33pm smoddy: Wikimedia England just sounds, well, exclusive...
6:34pm smoddy: Up Ireland
6:34pm cormaggio: :-)
6:34pm JamesF: Delphine> Yes, but the wording "wherever the Chair lives" may not be OK.
6:34pm JamesF: Delphine> That is, we might have to change the MoA each time a new Chair is picked, if they live in a different Part.
6:34pm JamesF: Or if they moved.
6:34pm shimgray: possibly more, if they lived in Scotland
6:35pm You changed the topic to "Meeting today at 18:00 UTC - see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association".
6:35pm JamesF: Might be an issue.
6:35pm delphine: Well, yes, but that would make sense
6:35pm delphine: until you have an office
6:35pm shimgray: (not sure if charity law differs over the border)
6:35pm You changed the topic to "Meeting today at 18:00 UTC - see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association".
6:35pm JamesF: Given that this would be under the law of England and Wales ("English law").
6:35pm cormaggio: oops sorry
6:35pm delphine: you don't want to have the charity have its HQ at some guy's home who's not involved anymore and doesn't want to
6:35pm JamesF: shimgray> It is. We've decided to go with English rather than Scottish.
6:35pm smoddy: how about "the Company's office will be located on the nomination of the Chair"?
6:35pm JamesF: delphine> Yes.
6:35pm shimgray: [nods] Sensible.
6:36pm JamesF: is not the expert on these things.
6:36pm smoddy: (or words to that effect -- there's an unfortunate double-entendre in that statement)
6:36pm JamesF: That could be OK.
6:36pm cormaggio: sounds good to me
6:36pm JamesF: smoddy> Indeed there is. :-)
6:36pm delphine: JamesF well, for the founding part, you will have to pick something
6:36pm delphine: it can just be a geltleman's agreement
6:36pm delphine: in some kind ot interior rulebook
6:37pm delphine: for example
6:37pm delphine: that the HQ will change with the Chair
6:37pm cormaggio: surely the company's office will have more than just one chair?
6:37pm cormaggio: sorry
6:37pm smoddy: there may be many chairs, but there's only one Chair
6:37pm cormaggio: ho hum
6:37pm smoddy: one chair to rule them all...
6:38pm delphine: cormaggio depends
6:38pm shimgray: cormaggio: You get much more business done if no-one can sit down...
6:38pm delphine: if you get money, you get chairs
6:38pm delphine: if not..
6:38pm delphine: it's the floor
6:38pm delphine: I can provide cushions
6:38pm cormaggio: prfers cushions
6:38pm cormaggio: or prefers even
6:39pm cormaggio: proferrs cushions (how do you spell that?)
6:39pm JamesF: OK, changes made.
6:40pm JamesF: Argh.
6:40pm JamesF: No, changes not made.
6:40pm JamesF: The database has been blocked.
6:40pm cormaggio: yes, changes not made
6:40pm shimgray: did that yesterday, was only five minutes or so.
6:40pm delphine: JamesF wait, I just saw
6:40pm delphine: does it HAVE to be called Foundation?
6:40pm delphine: :/
6:40pm JamesF: That's one of the changes I'm making.
6:40pm JamesF: Trying to make.
6:41pm delphine: ok
6:41pm shimgray: hmm. I take it 4.a) allows the NotFoundation to raise funds by anything that isn't either illegal or an actual business?
6:41pm JamesF: "Wikimedia UK Limited" is much better.
6:41pm delphine: oh YES
6:41pm cormaggio: yess
6:41pm delphine: think of the mix up :/
6:42pm JamesF: Unlocked, and saved.
6:42pm JamesF: Yes.
6:42pm smoddy: oh heck "the financial statement has to be available at the seat of the Association"
6:42pm JamesF: If we have "Foundation" in our name, people will think that we're official.
6:42pm JamesF: And if we're official, we're sue-able.
6:42pm smoddy: hmmm, sneaky
6:42pm shimgray: we're legally okay with using the name Wikimedia, I take it?
6:42pm JamesF: And then we're potentially thrown in gaol for criminal libel, etc.
6:42pm cormaggio: no can sue
6:42pm smoddy: I was wondering how we'd get round that
6:43pm smoddy: what if we host servers?
6:43pm JamesF: shimgray> We'll have a trademark licensing contract with WMF.
6:43pm JamesF: smoddy> We don't.
6:43pm smoddy: JamesF> oh
6:43pm JamesF: smoddy> Though we can give grants to organisations that do.
6:43pm JamesF: Such as, oh, WMF.
6:43pm JamesF: Anyway, my changes are madwe.
6:43pm JamesF: Made.
6:44pm smoddy: fair enough
6:44pm smoddy: but we don't host servers
6:44pm JamesF: Definitely.
6:44pm JamesF: Well, I may donate wiki hosting for wikimedia.org.uk for a private wiki.
6:45pm shimgray: hmm. 4.b) says we can buy servers, and 4.c) says we can give them to someone who does...
6:45pm JamesF: Stuff with all our information in it, etc.
6:45pm JamesF: shimgray> Yah. It's the actual hosting/running them that's a no-no, AIUI.
6:45pm shimgray: (a quick glance suggests s.36 and 37 of the 1993 Act only apply to land)
6:45pm smoddy: AIUI?
6:45pm JamesF: As I Understand It.
6:45pm shimgray: (and I have a hard time coming up with a reason for us to own land)
6:46pm JamesF: shimgray> Someone might donate property to us.
6:46pm shimgray: (though, oh, the comedy potential...)
6:46pm JamesF: shimgray> If we didn't have such things in the MoA, it would be illegal for us to accept it.
6:46pm shimgray: [nods]
6:46pm JamesF: This is just to help with that.
6:46pm JamesF: Similarly, we're unlikely to need a fund manager very soon.
6:46pm JamesF: But it's in the MoA anyway.
6:46pm smoddy: JamesF> would you like a 1 foot square corner of my garden?
6:47pm JamesF: 'Cos changing the MoA is a pain, and can't be done retrospectively.
6:47pm JamesF: smoddy> Getting the deeds redrawn would be frightfully expensive. I'd prefer the percuniary value of the fees, TBH. :-)
6:47pm smoddy: damn
6:47pm smoddy: I hoped someone else might cut it
6:47pm shimgray: besides, you're 16, surely you can't be disposing of land...
6:48pm JamesF: Also, that too.
6:48pm smoddy: shimgray> legal niceties
6:48pm JamesF: grins.
6:48pm JamesF: Hmm.
6:49pm JamesF: Anyway, as you all can see, the MoA needs a bit more work.
6:49pm cormaggio: James> was this document drafted from scratch or did you use the given templates by the charities commission?
6:49pm shimgray: ("My son", said the Welsh gardener, "I am dying, and don't want to mow / All those broad acres in Cardiff, so lease them to some other schmuck")
6:49pm shimgray: (needs work)
6:50pm JamesF: I think it's from actual Real Life(tm) MoAs that Alison has previously written, together will new stuff.
6:50pm cormaggio: it's quite good anyway, I like it
6:50pm shimgray: any idea what else to put in 3.*?
6:51pm cormaggio: we're not going to mention aims, are we (ie literacy etc..)
6:51pm smoddy: to make members of Wikimedia UK Ltd Very Rich
6:51pm cormaggio: smoddy> shh ;-)
6:52pm JamesF: Hmm. How about, There was an old gardener from Wales, Who caught a bad cold in the gales, Told his so not to mow, Did his back in you know, But to lease land for making straw bales.
6:52pm smoddy: I knew a member of a local council once who defrauded a charity...
6:52pm cormaggio: James> :-)
6:53pm cormaggio: good ol' Limericks
6:53pm JamesF: If random people want to give money directly to WMUK Board members, etc., I'm fine with that.
6:53pm jguk4 joined the chat room.
6:53pm JamesF: But defrauding charities is such an ugly way to make money.
6:53pm JamesF: Umm.
6:53pm JamesF: Heya jguk.
6:53pm shimgray: is trying to come up with something the project might want to do that isn't covered in 3)
6:53pm jguk4: hello - apologies for being v late
6:53pm JamesF: What brilliant timing. :-)
6:53pm smoddy: james> but nonetheless effective
6:53pm jguk4: I didn't think I'd make it at all (caught up in traffic)
6:54pm JamesF: jguk> You're not quite as late as Alison. Don't worry. :-)
6:54pm jwales joined the chat room.
6:54pm jguk4: JamesF - why brilliant timing?
6:55pm shimgray: you got to hear James confess his Seekrit Criminal Conspiracy
6:55pm Anthere joined the chat room.
6:55pm JamesF: Heya Jimbo
6:55pm JamesF: jguk> My comment about defrauding charities.
6:55pm JamesF: jguk> Didn't you get it?
6:55pm cormaggio: smimgray> I reckon you'd be hard-pressed to find something that isn't covered under 1-3
6:55pm JamesF: Heya Anthere, too.
6:55pm Anthere: lo james
6:55pm cormaggio: welcome all
6:55pm JamesF: Cormac> That's the idea. :-)
6:56pm cormaggio: yeah - good job, I think
6:56pm shimgray: "full of sound and fury, signifying everything"
6:56pm JamesF: Anyway.
6:57pm jguk4: James, if, now Jimbo's arrived, you wish to confess anything, please go ahead:)
6:57pm JamesF: To what do we owe the pleasure of having well over half of our illustrious Board present? ;-)
6:57pm JamesF: jguk> Hush, you. :-)
6:57pm delphine: JamesF they're b(o)ared in the board meeting I suppose
6:57pm JamesF: Anyway, http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association is our current draft of the MoA
6:58pm JamesF: Delphine> :_)
6:58pm smoddy: "to encourage the dissemination of free knowledge"?
6:58pm delphine: JamesF they're bo(a)red in the board meeting I suppose
6:58pm JamesF: Delphine> More grammatically correct, yes.
6:58pm JamesF: But the drafter of the MoA is off, so...
6:59pm jguk4: James - has a UK charity law expert seen it yet?
6:59pm JamesF: Not yet, no.
6:59pm JamesF: and Alison may meet up and go to the Charities Commission, perhaps.
6:59pm smoddy: 1.3d : "to encourage the dissemination of free knowledge"?
7:00pm cormaggio: 1.a) "to enable and assist the wider participation of individuals and groups of individuals in the creation, dissemination, and expansion of information resources covering the world's knowledge and languages to all persons everywhere" - i think this covers it
7:00pm delphine: JamesF don't forget to have the Memorandum translated
7:00pm delphine: :P
7:00pm JamesF: Delphine> Into what? :-)
7:00pm shimgray: a "freely" in there might help
7:00pm shimgray: (or at least sound good)
7:00pm delphine: JamesF US English would be a good start
7:00pm jguk4: Is SecretLondon confessing to be a UK charity law expert?
7:00pm JamesF: Delphine> There are at least 8 languages with differing levels of recognition in the UK. And English isn't one of them.
7:01pm smoddy: sorry, all, have to go
7:01pm smoddy is now known as smoddy-away.
7:01pm cormaggio: bye smoddy
7:01pm JamesF: jguk> More of a familiarity than expertise, I think.
7:01pm delphine: JamesF you gave up on the "situated in England part?"
7:01pm JamesF: Delphine> Certainly, "shewn" probably isn't understood by many Merkins, but...
7:02pm JamesF: Delphine> Will add a suggestion to change it, yes.
7:02pm JamesF: Thanks for reminding me. :-)
7:02pm jguk4: James - did you say you had a friend who is an expert who you might be able to persuade to do a pro bono?
7:02pm JamesF: I will ask.
7:03pm JamesF: But we may have to pay.
7:03pm jguk4: Do we have draft Articles of Association?
7:03pm JamesF: No, but the AoA will be absolutely identical to any other's, apparently.
7:03pm jguk4: Table A?
7:03pm jguk4: We should still check that we are ok with that
7:04pm cormaggio: jon> you've seen the MoA?
7:04pm JamesF: Of course.
7:04pm jguk4: I've seen the MoA Cormac, yes
7:04pm cormaggio: what's table A?
7:05pm jguk4: Table A is attached to the Companies Act, and is a standard form of Articles of Association - and holds good unless the company passes a resolution to have different Articles
7:05pm cormaggio: right, thanks
7:05pm jguk4: There are a number of different tables - actually Table A is for a with-profit company limited by shares - there will be another one for a charity limited by guarantee
7:06pm jguk4: Look - the MoA is defective in a number of basic ways
7:07pm jguk4: for instance - it does not say what the guarantee is
7:07pm cormaggio: so these are all available from the charities commission website?
7:07pm jguk4: Cormac - no - the opsi website
7:07pm jguk4: I think
7:07pm jguk4: or maybe from a library
7:07pm JamesF: jguk> We've not decided yet, though.
7:07pm shimgray: what year's the Act?
7:07pm jguk4: Look - if this is going to happen we need to get our act together
7:07pm jguk4: Companies Act 1985 (but amended by lots of SIs!)
7:08pm cormaggio: jon> maybe you could add a link here or somewhere when you get the chance
7:08pm shimgray: Ah. '89 is online, 85 isn't.
7:08pm jguk4: There are standard MoAs and AoAs we can use
7:08pm JamesF: We know.
7:08pm jguk4: Shimgray - the Tables regularly get amended by SIs
7:09pm jguk4: Is the idea to have everything ready to go to Companies House and the Charities Commission for approval in a real-life meeting on 27 November?
7:09pm cormaggio: sounds optimistic
7:09pm cormaggio: but if we could do it, why not?
7:10pm cormaggio: what do we need to that end?
7:10pm jguk4: Why not? Is Alison going to deliver on the MoA and AoA?
7:11pm JamesF: On the 27th?
7:11pm JamesF: On a Sunday?
7:11pm cormaggio: Alison should be here later - don't know when
7:11pm Angela: you'd need them approved by the Board before that#
7:11pm JamesF: I doubt they'll be open...
7:11pm cormaggio: i presume jon meant to have the documentation ready
7:11pm JamesF: Angela> Getting them legally un-OK'ed after wasting the Board's time approving them, you mean? :-)
7:11pm JamesF: Oh, right.
7:11pm jguk4: I did - to be approved by the proposed UK Chapter
7:11pm JamesF: Yeah.
7:12pm Angela: There's not much point paying for legal approval if the Board then want changes.
7:12pm JamesF: We wouldn't pay the Charities Commission, surely?
7:12pm cormaggio: how long would board approval take?
7:12pm cormaggio: or is that terribly hypothetical?
7:13pm jguk4: Angela - the changes the Board will want would be to what are Clauses 3 and 4 of the MoA, I'd imagine - not in the minutiae of the rest of it
7:13pm delphine: Angela there is. Not approval as a definite thing, but if there are things intrinsequely wrong with the MoA form the start, there's not poin in the board giving their opinion on things and suggest changes
7:13pm jguk4: Everything else would be pretty much standard text required by UK law
7:13pm delphine: jguk4 this has to be a two way process, I would say
7:14pm jguk4: As SecretLondon rightly points out on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_UK_charity_law
7:14pm Angela: If going to the CC doens't cost anything, I don't suppose there's much difference which way round it's done.
7:14pm delphine: first board, then legal UK approval, and if changed are made, legal questions asked to a legal perosn competent in the field
7:14pm Angela: The Board aren't likely to approve anything before December though.
7:14pm jguk4: a UK charity necessarily has to have control over its funds - would the Board find that acceptable?
7:14pm Angela: Yes, I think so.
7:15pm cormaggio: delphine> sounds reasonable
7:15pm jguk4: Then I'm sure we'd be talking mostly about Clauses 3 and 4 of the draft MoA - not the rest of the necessary documentation
7:16pm delphine: and btw, the Foundation is ready to pay for legal advice
7:16pm JamesF: Delphine> Has the plan been approved? Or do you mean in a one-off sort of way?
7:16pm jguk4: James - can you take responsibility for finding a UK Charity Law lawyer - either your mate - or advertise on the WP UK noticeboard for one - or else see how much one will cost, etc
7:16pm delphine: I have confidence that the plan is being approved...As we speak ;)
7:17pm delphine: but I guess Angela, Anthere and jwales could tell us better :P
7:17pm JamesF: jguk> I could, I suppose. But Alison is far more likely to actually know of one.
7:17pm jguk4: I can draft up a proper MoA and AoA (absent Clauses 3 and 4) myself by 27 Nov (but probably not much sooner)
7:17pm JamesF: jguk> But I'll try to find one, albeit possibly through her.
7:17pm delphine: JamesF and one proficient in internatioanl organisations and with some knowledge of US charities would be even better
7:17pm jguk4: James - if you taking responsibility means you get Alison to do it, then that's great - but I think we need definite progress
7:18pm JamesF: Delphine> There are probably 3 or 4 such people in the whole world.
7:18pm JamesF: jguk> Absolutely.
7:18pm delphine: JamesF oh come on!
7:18pm JamesF: Delphine> But I'll try, nonetheless.
7:18pm Angela: What plan? Do you mean the money for new chapters plan? If so, that's basically just been approved.
7:19pm delphine: \o/
7:19pm cormaggio: jon> what are the parts of articles in 3 and 4 that bother you so much? Are we talking about our existing MoA?
7:19pm jguk4: I'm talking about http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association
7:19pm JamesF: Angela> Right-o.
7:19pm cormaggio: ok, so what parts?
7:19pm jguk4: In 3a - the reference to "individuals" excludes unnatural persons, why?
7:19pm JamesF: Delphine> Congrats.
7:20pm delphine: JamesF I didn't do it, Florence did
7:20pm jguk4: In fact 3a can be read as preventing us giving money to the Wikimedia Foundation, as it is a corporate body, not an individual
7:20pm JamesF: jguk> It only implicitly excludes unnatural persons.
7:20pm JamesF: jguk> No, 3a is an aim, not a means.
7:21pm JamesF: As it were.
7:21pm shimgray: 4.f is the "giving money" part, no?
7:21pm jguk4: James - it is an object - acting outside of the objects is ultra vires
7:21pm jguk4: It's for reasons such as that that a lawyer needs to be brought in
7:23pm JamesF: nods.
7:23pm JamesF: Hmm.
7:23pm JamesF: I have to go soon. :-(
7:23pm jguk4: OK - let's agree on actions
7:24pm jguk4: I will put together a revised MoA and AoA for discussion by the end of Sunday 20 November
7:24pm jguk4: (unless there are any objections)
7:24pm jguk4: James will find a lawyer (whether that means getting Alison to get one or not, is up to James:) )
7:25pm jguk4: Where is the real-life meeting on Sunday 27 November?
7:25pm JamesF: Same place as last month's meeting.
7:25pm cormaggio: jon> why don't you work on or comment on the existing MoA? That was the point of putting it on-wiki?
7:25pm JamesF: A pub in South London.
7:25pm shimgray: (specifically?
7:25pm JamesF: Jimbo will be there, too.
7:25pm JamesF: I can dig around and find its name.
7:25pm JamesF: One moment.
7:26pm shimgray: (will probably be in Oxford, so will try to come down and be productive)
7:26pm jguk4: James - can you put the full name and address on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK#Future_meeting ?
7:26pm JamesF: shimgray> Cool.
7:26pm JamesF: jguk> Absolutely.
7:26pm cormaggio: shimgray> check past meetings on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
7:26pm jguk4: Jimbo - will you? :)
7:26pm jguk4: Cormac - I'll add my amendments to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association
7:27pm shimgray: ta.
7:27pm jguk4: and will create a new http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Articles_of_Association
7:27pm cormaggio: thanks jon
7:27pm jguk4: linked from the main UK page
7:27pm cormaggio: i'll add it to the template too
7:27pm jguk4: Anything we've missed?
7:27pm jguk4: Cormac, Shimgray - maybe we should give you something to do:)
7:28pm cormaggio: gimme work :-)
7:28pm cormaggio: well, I'm thinking about possible projects - could keep brainstorming them..
7:28pm jguk4: The only thing I've noticed is that we may wish to have a few more active members (though probably not too many)
7:28pm JamesF: jguk> Done.
7:29pm jguk4: maybe encourage a few good people along?
7:29pm cormaggio: i think membership so far is ok - considering we don't exist yet - but the more the merrier
7:29pm JamesF: Yes.
7:30pm JamesF: More people would be good.
7:30pm jguk4: Just we don't want the number of attendees at a real-life meet to get out of hand - I'm all for a bit of a social get-together, but there will need to be a time for serious discussion
7:31pm JamesF: Yes.
7:31pm jguk4: OK, anything more to discuss now?
7:31pm jguk4: Actually, can I make sure I have everyone's WP names?
7:31pm delphine: >notafish
7:31pm JamesF: is James F.
7:32pm cormaggio: I'm the same everywhere: Cormaggio
7:32pm jguk4: Shimgray?
7:32pm shimgray: Shimgray.
7:32pm jguk4: (I'm jguk, of course:) )
7:32pm shimgray: (on en, not active on meta)
7:32pm cormaggio: There's also Loopzilla (Gordon) Francs2000 (Graham) ...
7:33pm jguk4: I'll drop notes on everyone's talk pages once I've added a revised MoA and added an AoA
7:33pm cormaggio: That's Francstwothousand on Meta
7:33pm jguk4: James can keep us up to date on the lawyer front
7:33pm JamesF: Will do.
7:33pm JamesF: Anyway, have to go.
7:33pm JamesF Away.
7:34pm jguk4: ok - AOB?
7:34pm cormaggio: I'll stick around here I think - until VampWillow comes along
7:34pm delphine: sticks cormaggio on the wall
7:34pm cormaggio: jon> dunno really
7:34pm cormaggio: hey lemme down!
7:35pm jguk4: If Alison pops along, let her know what we've agreed (I don't want to edge her out, but I think we need action now - and I appreciate it can be a lot of work and we're all busy)
7:35pm jguk4: hopefully she'll soon have more time to deal with things:)
7:35pm cormaggio: I think we've done enough today, but I'll try and keep everyone informed (and active)
7:36pm jguk4: Cormac - what did I miss before I turned up?
7:36pm cormaggio: let me see..
7:36pm delphine: cormaggio no chance, you can't compete with me :)
7:37pm cormaggio: that members need to to be over 18
7:38pm jguk4: is someone going to add the transcript to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK ?
7:38pm cormaggio: is finding it hard to type from position on the wall..
7:38pm delphine: lets cormaggio down
7:38pm cormaggio: ah relief
7:38pm delphine: :)
7:38pm cormaggio: jon> yes, I'll do that
7:39pm jguk4: Brilliant, I'll read what I missed later
7:39pm jguk4: Apologies for missing the first 40 or so minutes - I'll be on my way then, if there's nothing else:)
7:39pm cormaggio: no that's fine - thanks for coming along
7:40pm jguk4: by all
7:40pm cormaggio: see ya
7:40pm delphine: bue
7:40pm delphine: bye