Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Mapudungun 2

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Mapudungun Wikipedia

main page Requests for new languages (Wikipedia Mapudungun 2)
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The language is eligible for a project, which means that the subdomain can be created once there is an active community and a localized interface, as described in the language proposal policy. You can discuss the creation of this language project on this page. (See an unofficial analysis of this request.)

Proposal summary
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Mapudungun is an isolated language spoken in Chile and in Argentina by Mapuche people. There are between 150,000 to 600,000 speakers (quantities vary according to the method of study). The language has three major scripts, however none is universally accepted. There was another proposal here, and the localisation is at work.

Arguments in favour

  • Support, this language is in danger, a very good way to help would be creating a wikipedia... There are 440,000 speakers (strangely, formerly 600,000). It is the heritage of Chile and Argentina, if you lose it, it would be like losing history, think they already lost 150,000 speakers... // Este idioma está en peligro, una muy buena forma de ayudarlo sería creando una wikipedia... existen 440.000 hablantes (extrañamente, antes eran 600.000) Es patrimonio de Chile y Aregentina, si se pierde sería como perder historia, piensen que ya se perdieron 150.000 hablantes... --Clerc 00:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC) (Somos varios hablantes de arn 1 en wikipedia en español)
  • Support A favor: El proyecto tiene posibilidades de realizarse y tendría como beneficiarios potenciales a una cantidad de personas que va entre las 150 mil y las 600 mil en Chile y Argentina. Existen artículos ya iniciados en el incubador y se está traduciendo lentamente la interfaz en Betawiki. Todo depende de que concurran a participar hablantes nativos. 22:26, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Support A favor: Aparte de que puede ayudar a más de 600.000 personas dando conocimiento libre en su propia lengua, también puede evitar la desaparición del idioma mapuche. --Chabi 13:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Support A favor: A difficult project but a very useful one for all the Mapuches. Useful for Chile and Argentina. Sería un proyecto difícil pero demasiado útil para los hablantes de este idioma ya sea en Chile o Argentina. El proyecto ayudaría a evitar que desaparezca esta hermosa lengua.
  • Support A favor: Se ayudaría a que no desaparezca esta lengua que está a punto de desaparecer --ignacio01
  • Support: There are people in the Wikipedia community (specially in Spanish Wikipedia) that can help in this project. Also, this is an endagered language in Latin America. And finally, the Chilean President Michelle Bachelet appealed personally to Jimbo Wales for the creation of this wikipedia. --Taichi - (あ!) 00:48, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

It's true, there are some politics problems about the standarization of mapudungun. Below some people say it, and they are right. But, if we wait they resolve themselves, we can start to work when the language was death language. I am not an expert, but I know a few, I recognize it, but in my cathegory of wingka, mestizo and others, I feel this is a fight which is worth to fight.200.54.151.82 21:06, 20 February 2009 (UTC)kmolfloyd

  • Support: Same to Taichi. To 200.54.151.82: we can make an incubator first and then see the effects. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 01:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Support. Let's start this project. If even the president of Chile shows her support I think it's possible to make a good wikipedia. See Guarani wikipedia, it was dying but then came people from Paraguayan institutions concerned about Guarani language and ethnoculture and now it has plenty of very good articles. Hugo.arg 13:35, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Felepe

Mari mari kom pu ce, Iñce ta kiñe mapuce mogelekelu Puelmapu mew, Wenosay mu; cijkatulen ka kimeltucelen tayiñ Mapucezugun. Iñciñ pu mapuce kvzawkvlerkeyiñ tayiñ zoy mapucezuguleal: mvlerkey zoy 700.000 mapuzuguci ce, ka ixofijke kimeltucefe mvlekerkey fij mapu mew. Tañi rakizuamkvlen, tici Wikipetia rume kejuay ñi mvleafuetew; mvlele taci wikipetia, iñce piafiñ tañi cijkatufe ñi cijkaqetew egvn, fey mew ñi zoy kvme kimkimtuleyegvn. Mvlerkey fijke wiriel az may, welu ¿mvlelay kam tici rupaltupeyvm ñi rupayafiel kiñeke wiriel ka wiriel pvle, Serfiuzugun erke? Azkvnutuwe mew kom taci zugu pepi ñi zewman. Iñciñ pu mapuce rume kvzawkvletuyiñ tayiñ wiñomapuzuguael kom Meli Wixal Mapu pvle, fey mew mvha kvme tici mapuce ñi wikipetia ñi mvlerkeafuy. Feypiken may.

Hola a todos, Soy un mapuche que esta viviendo en Puelmapu, en Buenos Aires; estoy estudiando y enseñando nuestro idioma. Nosotros los mapuche estamos trabajando para fomentar el uso del Mapuzugun: hay más de 700.000 hablantes, y varios maestros enseñando en diversos lugares. Pienso que esta Wikipedia, de existir, ayudaría mucho; si existiera, le diría a mis alumnos que la leyeran y así aprenderían mejor. Es cierto que hay distintas formas de escribirlo, pero ¿no existen acaso herramientas para pasar de un sistema de escritura a otro, como en el idioma serbio? Con las computadoras todas estas cosas pueden hacerse. Nosotros los mapuche estamos trabajando muchísimo para recuperar nuestro idioma en los cuatro puntos cardinales de nuestro territorio, por lo que sería muy bueno que existiera esta wikipedia mapuche. Esto es lo que digo.

Hello everybody, I am a mapuche, living in Puelmapu , in Buenos Aires; I am studying and teaching our language. We, the mapuche people, are working to increase the use of the Mapuzugun: there are more than 700,000 speakers, and a number of teachers teaching it in different places. I think that this wikipedia, if it becomes a reality, will help a lot; if it existed, I would tell my students to read it and so they could learn better. It is true that there are different ways of writing it, but ¿does not exist tools to transcribe from a system of writing to another, like in Serbian? With the computers all this kind of things are possible. We the mapuche are working very hard to recuperate our language to the four cardinal points of our territory, so it would be great if this wikipedia existed. This is what I say. --Kaniw 02:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Add yourself into "Proposal summary" - "Users interested in forming an editing community:" as "[[User:Kaniw|Kaniw]] ('''N''')" in order to support this project. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 05:17, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Also, help the Development wiki project. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 05:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Support There are wikipedias in Aymara, Guaraní, Nahuatl and Quechua languages, why not a wikipedia in Mapudungun as well? Nations such as Bolivia, Mexico, Paraguay, and Peru have inherited a great deal of their cultural viewpoints from these languages, and all of them have enriched the Spanish language spoken in those countries by adding native words and expressions. Though with some difference, the same can be said about Mapudungun language in Chile and Argentina. Unfortunately, Mapudungun is falling into disuse. It is true that there are different ways to represent Mapudungun sounds, but this is exactly the same case with Emiliano-Romagnolo dialects, Dutch/Flemish in the Netherlands and Belgium, Portuguese in Brazil and Portugal, and even English in the USA and in the UK. Instead of letting the fourth Amerindian language spoken in South America, after Quechuan languages, Guaraní and Aymara, disappear little by little, give it a chance to become a source of knowledge for all its speakers. Thanks a lot for reading this message. --Alpinu 09:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Same reasons as Taichi, I'm from the spanish Wikipedia. --RubiksMaster110 18:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Support: Support...Estoy a favor de abrir una wikipidia en lengua mapuche y también en otras lenguas nativas de América; aunque resulte dificil al principio encontrar cibernautas indígenas o hablantes nativos debido a la falta de aparatos tan cotidianos en zonas urbanas como computadoras e internet, los proyectos en estas lenguas si funcionan en las lenguas que estan dejando de ser solo orales y se estan convirtiendo en gráficas para su enseñanza.--Marrovi 22:37, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Support This have to be accepted. Esto tiene que aceptarse. --Fire in the hole! 19:43, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
  • a quite alive language of a proud ethnic group. → «« Man77 »» [de]·[bar] 23:08, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Support --MIKHEIL 15:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Support --Jugydmort 18:58, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
  • (normal to weak) support - enough content to start (over 350 pages) and the Chilean President even supports this. This would be a "strong support" if there was still activity there. πr2 (tc) 20:34, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Arguments against

  • Oppose The proposers indicate a level one knowledge of the language. There are political problems with the orthography of this language; the Chilean government has standardised the language against the wishes of the Aurocana people as I remember it.. I really want native people involved in order to press ahead with this proposal. Thanks, GerardM 05:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
    • I'm following the Mapudungun Test and it seems they found someone with a high level of knowledge (though still no native..). I had also proposed to contact Wikimedia Argentina, because they have a program to help native American languages. SPQRobin (inc!) 09:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
      • GerardM, yes, the project only can be approved (?) when there be a community of native speakers. However, now that it is possible (but I think that this proposal is a little hurried). The problems with ortographies can be solved with authomatic transformation if there is no agreement. In Incubator and Betawiki we Clerc and me use "Alfabeto Unificado" (i. e.: mapudungun) that is used in many publications related to Mapudungun, but Chilean government and some Mapuche organizations use "Grafemario Azümchefe" (i. e.: mapuzugun) and another Mapuche organizations use "Grafemario Raguileo" (i. e.: mapuzugun). Contacts with Wikimedia Argentina are in progress, in fact, now I'm writing a letter (e-mail). Bye. Lin linao 14:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
        • I already contact a native speaker through the Internet, and given him information about the project, told him about the system of wikipedia, its objectives and partners of the project and is interested. On the alphabet, we normally unified is the simplest and used (When it) // Yo ya contacte un hablante nativo mediante Internet, le e dado información sobre el proyecto, le dije sobre el sistema de wikipedia, sus objetivos y los colaboradores del proyecto y se ve interesado. Sobre el alfabeto, usamos normalmente el unificado que es el más simple y usado (Por lo que se)--Clerc 20:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Other discussion

Anybody review the legal issues with providing a Mapudungun wiki (see this)? --MarsRover 04:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Problem about Windows it was the script (developed by Chilean Government and defined as official without agreement of Mapuche society) and a fear for Microsoft could be copyright the language. A Wikipedia is not a threat and Mapudungun speaking people will be the basis of wiki-community. Bye. Lin linao 00:55, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
The script is the Latin script. What you are talking about it orthography. Also you cannot copyright an orthography. GerardM 05:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
MarsRover and me were talking about that link and about possibilities of a similar problem with Wikipedia. --Lin linao 20:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Project is eligible. Please, use all three major orthographies (Unified Alphabet, Ragileo, Azumchef). Conversion engine should be made. --Millosh 11:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Grafemarios

Marimari kom pu che, ¿No hay alguna posibilidad de tener Wikipedia en alfabeto Unificado? Me parece que, después de todo, es el grafemario con mayor aceptación. Eso no significa que se deba eliminar la Wikipedia en Ragilew, ambas pueden convivir (e incluso ser calcos una de la otra). Hcampbellsills

arn

ENGLISH:arn is derived from "araucanio" a pejorative term for both the mapuche people and their language. This is similar to "nigger" or "chink" when a mapuche person is called this. I suggest since we may use additional ISO codes (new ones) for languages with multiple names (something that is allowed), that we employ something closer to "mapudungun" since that is the name of the project and by far the most common name of the language as spoken by its native speakers. since it is not taken[1] i suggest we use "map" and forget about the archaic, offensive, and divisive arn. In fact many mapuche are very proud and may not even contribute to a project once noticing the arn. What do you all think?

ESPAÑOL:arn es derivado de "araucano" un término ofensivo para ambos los mapuches y su lengua. Aquel es similar a "sudaca" o "mojado" cuando se le dirige a una persona mapuche. Sugero que utilizamos un código ISO adicional (uno nuevo) para idiomas con múltiples nombres, (algo que se permite), algo empleemos algo más cerca a "mapudungun" por que aquel es el nombre del proyecto y aparte de todo es el nombre más común del lenguaje en la manera que se habla por sus hablante nativos. Tomando en cuenta que no está ya en uso [2] sugiero que usémos «map» y olvidemos el arcaico, ofensivo y divisivo arn. De hecho muchos mapuches son orgullosos y podrían ni contribuir al proyecto cuando se fijen del arn. ¿qué piensan uds.? Troyster87 13:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Hola, me tomé la libertad de corregir errores ortográficos en tu mensaje. Pienso lo mismo que tú, pero no tengo claro si puede hacerse. Saludos. Lin linao 14:17, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

EN: I think the same, arn is not a good name, due to its pejorative history. Map, mpz, or other may be better. ES: Pienso lo mismo, arn no es un buen nombre, debido a que tiene una historia peyorativa. Map, mpz u otro podría ser mejor. 200.54.151.82 20:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)KMOLFLOYD 20/01/2009

There is no chance at all that another code will be used then arn. We have adopted the ISO-639-3 standard and there are other languages where the code is not really appropriate fin for suomi for instance. Thanks, GerardM 05:30, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
It will be a big problem. --Lin linao 20:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
I see your point, GerardM, but I beg to differ: On the one hand, fin for suomi is kind of appropriate because of the other official language spoken in Finland: Swedish (Finska, "Finnish" in Swedish) and, on the other hand, it does not have a negative or pejorative connotation. How would you feel knowing that the code of your language ("arn" in this case) comes from a derogatory name ("Araucanian")? At the same time, it calls my attention that Nahuatl, Aymara, Quechua, and Guaraní have their respective codes according to their names: (29 different codes for Nahuatl dialects, most of them starting nh-), ay, qu, and gn, respectively. In the case of Mapudungun code, this might have been done by asking the ones who speak the language, instead of imposing a code created by the ones who are only able to read about it. Thanks for reading this message. --Alpinu 09:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Maybe mdn could be a good option, from MapuDunguN. As Lin linao says, the term "araucano" is pejorative. Nobody would accept, for example, Wikipedia in "nigga" or in "yankee". Hcampbellsills (talk) 11:21, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Localisation update