Wikijunior/Kiki character/Designs/Second last round

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This page is about creating a recurrent character for the Wikijunior project. For discussion about the character see: Wikijunior project Kiki character

About Wikijunior: A while ago, the Beck Foundation approached the Wikimedia Foundation, inquiring about whether we would be able to use our resources to develop educational material for a younger audience. We responded that we would be interested in such a project, and that our materials can be adapted for children. A proposal was sent, and we received a small grant to develop the project (see October 16, 2004 board meeting). Thus was born Wikijunior. For more information see the project's page: Wikijunior here on meta and the actual project being developped here on Wikibooks.

Foreword[edit]

These entries are in the order I received them, based on multiple postings in multiple locales, over multiple months. I ask you to treat all of these artists with respect, even if you're completely against their designs. This discussion is not the place to discuss the validity of Kiki/Keiki/Niki/Nikki, this is solely to discuss what design(s) is your pick, and why you think these are the best.

I've included any back history, portfolios of work, that sort of thing, when made available to me, to let you get a better understanding of what each artist has to offer the project. Some of the information (especially gender) is extremely trivial, but it's in there just to fill out the length.

Eventually in the call for designs, lifted the Hawaii element from requirements, as I could sense that restriction was restraining creative freedoms, and thus prohibiting people from participating as eagerly. Colour was always optional in the entries, in one of the earliest posts, I actually asked that they weren't coloured yet.

Before we were begin, I must comment that while I'm completely satisifed with what we received for this project, I was expecting to have more of the deviantArt and other communities to jump at the chance to have their work in a true publication.

Nikki 2[edit]

Full picture

Name
Alexander Shen
Gender
Male
Experience
Gashapon Shop, other web comics
DeviantArt
DeviantArt Page

Comments[edit]

  • Might be a little 'cute' for our teen readers. I very much like the look of the action poses in the full picture, seems competently drawn, but, I think we might need a character a little less 'girly' especially for the teens and boys. A little less cute, and a little more rugged, before I would pick this as the best. I do like this one though, seems to be versatile enough to go anywhere. (my teenage nephew:) "Yeah, that's cool, one of my top two choices. She's a little girly for guys to like, though" (me again:) I like the action poses quite a bit, and am seriously leaning toward preferring the style of this artist (see Nikki 5)for these reasons:
    • versatile, can work in any pose.
    • very pen-and-ink looking, the strong black lines lend themselves to print media very well, not reliant on color printing, in case the page doesn't have other color images on it.
    • nice compact images that don't depend on fashion accessories to be interesting, seems like a nice wholesome universal kid. Pedant 18:56, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I've added my DeviantArt Page for further reference. I'd be very honored if I were able to work on this project. If you would like to see anything else, please let me know. -Alex 8.2.2005
    • Great to see you're here, I was just about to start contacting all the participants to have them come. I'm glad you're still interested in the project. -- user:zanimum
  • Too girly. We don't want to put boys off. Theresa knott 17:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


Nikki 4[edit]

|Full picture

Name
Lan
Deviantart account
Azarath [1]
Location
United States of America
Gender
Female

Comments[edit]

  • First, let me say I do not like the bare midriff/bellybutton thing... this image should be one that may not offend 'other cultures', and some parents would consider it a little 'sexy'. I think it's a bit "Barbie" too. comment from my teenage nephew: She looks a little bit too Sabrina the Teenage Witch or Valley Girl ... she's too lanky for someone her age (me again:) I think this one emphasizes style details too much and looks distinctly American. I'd need to see her doing some sort of exploration, what would she wear to an archaeological excavation? How would she do her hair in a humid jungle? etc. Well drawn, but seems to be not a serious kid. Pedant 18:38, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
  • "seems to be not a serious kid" That could be taken to our advantage, I guess. Instead of just an anybody's best friend-type character that Kiki likely will be, this design could take it a step further and be a lot of boys first crush. So your recommendations would be less deviance from a tweenage body structure, and slightly more conservative clothing? -- user:zanimum
  • PLEASE don't try to deliberately make this character less sexy! Geez, so what if the character is a little sexy? God knows we could do with some sexiness here at Wikimedia, it's something that's been rather lacking up to now. Great picture. Pleeez don't change it to make it all boring! --Ce garcon 17:19, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I think our main worry is the internationalization of these books. Where ever the voluminous grants are (Africa, China, Middle East), the governments and societies are rather conservative. While we're translating and even outright changing the content covered in each edition, I'd rather not have multiple Kikis. -- user:zanimum

I have no objection to sexiness per se, but remember that the context is a book for kids around the world. Like zamium said, and I agree, I think it should be more universal. Nothing wrong with the character, just the costuming. A big drawback though, is that she seems to me to be a very specific type of person, I'd have to see her in something besides this pose and this costume before I'd like this one. Would like to see a black and white rendering as well, not every page our toon is on will be color. I doubt this character no matter what she looks like is going to be anyone's first crush. But whether that's the case or not, I think it might be wise to anticipate objections from some cultures about bare midriffs and the like. I think it doesn't matter what she looks like as long as consistency can be maintained; as long as the character can be a versatile, go anywhere do anything type; as long as she won't turn off the parents of the kids who will be reading the books, or the kids themselves, and print well. I don't think this one is best suited to those criteria, at this point but the discussion is still current and there's plenty of time to show me I'm wrong by drawing something that will suit a universal audience, and drawing some poses that are more than 'fashion model poses'. Besides, my objections don't mean much if a dozen others disagree, so we'll see how the discussion goes. Pedant 01:27, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Well I agree. She is too Barbie doll for my taste. Theresa knott 17:35, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Although the character is in a static pose, she looks like she has a dynamic personality. Would be great to see her "in action". I think Pedant's "focus group" should comment. I am sure the author can change her clothes. Is she going to be Polynesian? Can her eye, hair, and skin tones be darkened? What does her profile look like? Will she have a nose? Can her features look Polynesian? Or has the Polynesian idea been dropped? --SV Resolution 13:07, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Nikki 5[edit]

Rainee, different views* Rainee, comic* Other characters in Gashapon Shop*

  • note Rainee is an existing character design, a possible design for Nikki
Name
Alexander Shen
Gender
Male
Experience
Gashapon Shop, other web comics
DeviantArt
DeviantArt Page

These are illustrations/panels that I stole with permission from Gashapon Shop. The character pictured is named Rainee, and she runs a hobby shop for her dad. The reason I've included this character is because I'm anticipating many of you will find #2 too cutesy.

Comments[edit]

  • I am seriously leaning toward preferring the style of this artist (see my comments at Nikki 2) for these reasons:
    • versatile, can work in any pose.
    • very pen-and-ink looking, the strong black lines lend themselves to print media very well, not reliant on color printing, in case the page doesn't have other color images on it.
    • nice compact images that don't depend on fashion accessories to be interesting, seems like a nice wholesome universal kid.
    • This one is a little more rugged, I'm picturing Nikki number 2 without the cute flower, although I am not against cute flowers in the right context -- I think she could dress up to go to a Luau or Potlatch or the like, and a costume might be suitable in those cases, but I'd like to see her in lab coats and cargo pants and, pretty much whatever outfit would be suitable in her environment, but NOT be a fashion girl, just be ready for anything. Pedant 18:56, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I've added my DeviantArt Page for further reference. I'd be very honored if I were able to work on this project. If you would like to see anything else, please let me know. -Alex 8.2.2005
    • Great to see you're here, I was just about to start contacting all the participants to have them come. I'm glad you're still interested in the project. -- user:zanimum
  • My favorite. Simple, versatile, and elegantly drawn. Having checked out the artist's other work, I'm confident that this will work. --208.25.63.25 19:09, 10 August 2005 (UTC) (don't have an account on Meta, but I'm CodeGeneratR on the English and Swedish Wikipedia).
  • I'd certainly commission this artist. Maybe I'd even read his webcomic. :) Ashibaka 01:56, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Cute. :) My favourite design. --70.49.164.252 03:50, 10 September 2005 (UTC) (User:Shanel on Wikibooks and Wikipedia)

How would Kiki Improve Wikijunior Solar System?[edit]

Mr. Shen:

  • How would you propose putting Kiki into a 48-page booklet about the solar system?
    • As for how she'd look, I'd say superimposing her over actual images (though never fully blocking out the photographcs), sidebar panel conversations, comic strips within the booklet regarding information she has learned (I am a big fan of comics afterall) and maybe some type of activity page (make a mobile or something).
  • What role would she take?
    • I believe it would be fun and interesting to have her basically be the half-guide/half-learner for the entire book experience. She'd basically have questions that maybe the kids reading the booklet would have (i.e. How hot does the sun get or What are the rings of Saturn made of?). She could also be a guide because since she's such a youngster herself, the kid's could relate and pretend to be with her on the trip.
  • How would having Kiki be better than not having Kiki?
    • It would take the "this is a boring text book" edge off of the booklet. Pictures already help in that respect, but adding a cartoon character that kids like to look at and see in different situations gives it a larger sense of fun. It wouldn't be simply learning = boring, but rather learning = fun. The pictures can be cute, funny and that makes it less of a chore to go through. It also adds the element that Kiki is a kid, so are the readers, and thus creating a sense of connection between the reader and material.
  • Can Kiki be Polynesian (the original concept)?
    • Of course she can. The image here is actually of one named Rainee. The design can be altered to match more of the original Polynesian concept. No problemo.

--SV Resolution(Talk) 18:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

-- Alexander Shen

Nikki 7[edit]

Full picture

Name
Carlos Hoyos Barceló
Location
Spain
Gender
Male
Wikipedia connection
User of es. meta user page of Dr. Jones
Experience
He has some experience in animation.
Deviantart page
[2] (old pictures)

Comments[edit]

  • I like this artist (see my comments at Nikki 2) for these reasons:
    • versatile, can work in any pose.
    • classic cartoon look

this one works for me as much as 2 and 5 for some of the same reasons. Might be nice to see more from this artist, in a variety of environments. Pedant 19:42, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

    • I agree with your comments, but I'll ask Carlos to hold back from posting more poses, in case the rest of the community sways against it for some reason. -- user:zanimum
  • I like it. It's professional looking Theresa knott 17:38, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I have drawn more sketches of Sarah (Kiki), you can find them at this URL more Kiki sketches DrJones 22:28, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

How would Kiki Improve Wikijunior Solar System?[edit]

Dr. Jones:

  • How would you propose putting Kiki into a 48-page booklet about the solar system? *What role would she take?
    • The solar system is a tricky one, as it is full of content. Being the first book on the series, we must introduce the character, which is very space-demanding. My approach would be to use the very first page exclusively for introductions (this has already been done by Uderzo and Tabary, so I'm confident that it will work here). I will also dedicate the last 2-4 pages to puzzles and games that require reading the book to beat.
    • I can create a fun short-story about her and a little martian that would justify the need to learn about the solar system, but that would take from 4 to 5 pages. Other approach would be including a comic strip on every odd page, referencing the section. The idea is that she learns from a teller, which knows a lot about the topic. However, if the space issues are too high, I would drawn instead some illustrations of her explaining some concepts (like gravity) and show some cool facts. Kiki would highlight the most relevant points of the booklet. DrJones
  • How would having Kiki be better than not having Kiki?
    • Having a character for all booklets gives identity to the series. This way, we have a way to connect books that handle very different topics. If Kiki is a good character, children will get identified with her, allowing us to work within a proximity atmosphere. They will be more attracted to the book, and it will be more enjoyable. Of course, if Kiki doesn't work in practice, we should remove it entirely. DrJones
  • Can your Kiki meet the original requirement of looking Polynesian?
    • I guess so. I should say that this Kiki wasn't drawn with the character in mind; it was more a test sketch to show to all. I still don't see any advantage on making her polynesian, though. It doesn't add any character, symbolism, nor helps children to get identified with her. On the other hand, the idea hasn't been thrilled to death. DrJones

--SV Resolution(Talk) 18:44, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Kiki Polynesian
Kiki short haired

Here is my first try to make her look polynesian. I had to change some aspects of her face, so she looks now a bit older. If this version of Kiki gets chosen, I would do minor adjustments here and there to get the final design. Choosing a polynesian Kiki has the additional disadvantage of not being able to include a little martian without bringing back memories of Lilo & Stitch. I included two versions because there wasn't agreement in my home about which one looked better. DrJones 20:39, 9 October 2005 (UTC)



<filler text>

Nikki 12[edit]

12
Name
Daniel Nilsen
More stuff from Daniel
http://www.sge-games.co.uk/wotpsite/kiki.jpg
Notes from Daniel
If I got it right it's supposed to be a girl who lives in Hawaii. I can't say I've seen any specific age on her. Only that you'd prefer her to be "relatively attractive". So judging from that and the fact that she's supposed to be young, I figured around the age 16-19. Anyway, I'm sure you get a lot of Lilo & Stitch type of designs, so I wanted mine to look somewhat unique (yet normal). So I made her very much like my niece at the age of 13 would like her. My version of Kiki is very adult and female, but still fresh, playful and sporty. I also made her "race" in a grey-zone. Whether or not she's a native Hawaiian girl is left wide open for the reader. I think it's a character that would be very much liked by young ones as it's very stylish and not too suger-sweet. I hope you like it as much as I do. If not, it was very fun trying. And you're more than welcome to ask me again.
image
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/5/51/Nil_kiki.jpg

Comments[edit]

  • This one is pretty neat too. --Ce garcon 17:21, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Nice fresh look. Very reproducible. Would like to see some other poses and costumes, perhaps a black and white version, also see my objections above to bare midriffs, vis a vis our international multicultural target audience. I like this one as much as any of the others, costuming considerations aside. In fact I like this one very much. Pedant 01:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC) Just checked this one out with teenager nephew, he likes it and says it's "one of the better one's we've seen, but seems a little old for the target audience"... I could maybe be happy with something along the lines of this image. Might try to knock 2 years off her age? or not... Pedant 01:45, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
      • I like her most from the suggestions --Louisana 19:17, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
  • You all must realise that this artist a.) was late b.) didn't follow the instructions that were in every posting, so might not follow future instructions if chosen. Plus this character will not go over well anywhere where we can get foreign aid grants. -- user:zanimum
  • I like the face on this one. The clothes are too hip looking, and the bare midriff is too sexy (hip today looks very dated very quickly). The books are aimed at 8 - 11 year olds so kiki should IMO be younger than 16. Never the less I'm drawn to the picture. It looks good. Theresa knott 18:04, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I don't like the particular type of handbag used in this image (too stylish), but I think a carrier bag of some kind might be a cool gimmick for the character to have and pull strange and unusual things out of when dealing with the topics. You could take it to an extreme and pull absolutely impossible things out of it, like a whole planet.--Eloquence 23:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
    • I have to agree, much too stylish overall. I could see any of the other characters need little to no redesigns over the next few decades, not so with the others. The shirt is so form fitting, the boobs more developed than the target audience. We could try the handbag gag, but it might get tired after a few books worth. -- user:zanimum

How would Kiki Improve Wikijunior Solar System?[edit]

Mr. Nilsen:

  • How would you propose putting Kiki into a 48-page booklet about the solar system?
  • What role would she take?
  • How would having Kiki be better than not having Kiki?
  • Can you show us some other examples of Kiki or any other human figure involved in some kind of activity?

--SV Resolution(Talk) 18:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Nikki 13[edit]

This is a late entry with zanimum's permission. I've taken the liberty of adding myself, as it's apparent that things need to get moving. Risk 23:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

13

Full Picture and others

Name
Risk
Location
Netherlands
Notes
I'd like to think there's a tinge of polynesian in there, but It might just be my imagination. I gave her sort of a rangers uniform, to circumvent the whole clothing dilemma. I do see her wearing costumes like spacesuits or historical stuff as well. I've missed the voting deadline, but feel free to vote me out anyway. :)

Comments[edit]

I like these quite a bit Pedant 03:50, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I think this Kiki looks sorrowful, even in the "happy" shots. And I think the hips should be about the same width as the shoulders. She's 7-11, that active childhood age, not a pudgy toddler, right? --SV Resolution(Talk) 18:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the intent was a character 10-13, to be older than most reader, or all readers. That way she's not totally out of touch with them, but they can still look up to her. -- user:zanimum

Archives[edit]

Wikijunior/Kiki character/Designs/Voting archives

Next step[edit]

So what now? Risk 21:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Any of these designs would work. I think that what we need to know now is that the artist can work with the material. Should we have another round of voting, or ask the artist to come up with some concepts for b:Wikijunior Solar System, which is the closest to completion? --SV Resolution(Talk) 18:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I think concepts would be best. Let them have a free for all, decide one or two things to illustrate based on the content in the Wikibook. However, while I'd love for us to publish the Solar System book, the grant was specifically worded as being for something on animals. -- user:zanimum
While this is a good idea, it has nothing to do with choosing our recurring character. We can have many artists illustrating the same book (and the more, the better), but we can have only one Kiki. I suggest creating as soon as posible a page on each book for brainstorming, and give concepts and ideas so we don't lose time drawing things that are going to be rejected. Leave this one exclusively for Kiki. DrJones 13:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Study of the character[edit]

At this moment, there is not enough info about what role is going to perform Kiki on the books. Is she going to get an active role during the whole book? That is, being part of an ongoing story, or is she going the be mainly on static poses commenting certain points of some topics?

  1. On the first case, it's important to being able to draw Kiki from different angles.
  2. On the second case, we must know if she is going to be full bodied or if we are going to show only her face. It's more difficult to draw a full body, but a single face requires being able to draw interesting expressions.

The character is not well defined yet. This is important as it affects her outfit and gestures. I suggest everyone to write up to five adjetives describing Kiki in his/her mind, and up to three things Kiki isn't. Note that defects define the character better than virtues, but we must also transmit values to kids, both are important.

  1. DrJones - Kiki is: Fun, smart, curious, irresponsible, witty. Kiki isn't: studious, calm, bad-mannered.

Will Kiki interact with elements of the book? If that is the case, we need images of her in action.

Once all is decided, we can ask the artists to draw one or two of each aspect needed. Is enough ten days to decide? DrJones 13:16, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

SV Resolution(Talk) 12:41, 3 October 2005 (UTC):

  • IS: Curious, adventurous, energetic, boisterous, quick-witted. Likes to tell people what she knows. Interested in trying on the lab coat, the space suit, the stethescope, etc.
  • ISN'T: Shy, tactful, reserved,
Kiki should be shown as a whole body, as with any other character included in the brief story lines, and spot illustrations. -- user:zanimum

Kid group comments[edit]

The kids here are pretty evenly divided between number 5 and number 12, as first choice and 5, 12, and 7 as second choice. Sorry it took so long to pry an answer out of them. I personally think any of those 3 would work. Pedant 17:09, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, Pedant. I think we should pursue the artists of these three. Find out what ideas they have for illustrating b:Wikijunior Solar System, how long they think it would take, and what the characters look like in action. Kiki 12, for example, is only shown standing serenely still, not surprised or startled or holding her breath or squashed by a big planet's enormous gravity. I've just made an argument for a more cartoonish character, haven't I? --SV Resolution(Talk) 13:24, 4 October 2005 (UTC)