Wikimedia Australia/Meeting 7/Log
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[17:42:06] [INFO] Channel view for ``#wikimedia-au'' opened. [17:42:06] -->| YOU (DarkFalls) have joined #wikimedia-au [17:46:57] =-= DarkFalls has changed the topic to ``Wikimedia Australia (www.wikimedia.org.au) | Meeting in here today at 8pm AEDT | Wikipedia goal: 250 GAs and 100 FAs by 2009'' [18:19:00] -->| kewpid has joined #wikimedia-au [18:20:20] |<-- kewpid has left freenode (Client Quit) [18:28:46] -->| kewpid has joined #wikimedia-au [18:41:41] -->| zero1328 has joined #wikimedia-au [19:13:28] -->| IKnowNothing has joined #wikimedia-au [19:48:01] -->| Canley has joined #wikimedia-au [19:48:47] -->| Orderinchaos has joined #wikimedia-au [19:52:58] -->| Confusing has joined #wikimedia-au [19:53:03] <zero1328> Good afternoon, good evening and good night [19:53:19] <zero1328> and such and such [19:57:01] <DarkFalls> zero1328: Which movie was that from? The <some guy's name> show or something? [19:57:10] <IKnowNothing> zero1328: She :) [19:57:12] <zero1328> The Truman Show [19:57:27] <zero1328> I meant what I meant [19:57:36] <IKnowNothing> ah :) [19:57:42] <DarkFalls> heh... [19:58:32] <zero1328> Given where I am, I use that movie line often as a greeting [19:59:06] <kewpid> ,m,. [20:00:01] -->| enochlau has joined #wikimedia-au [20:00:04] <Orderinchaos> who is zero? [20:00:06] <Orderinchaos> hey enoch :) [20:00:18] <DarkFalls> Orderinchaos: [[User:Zero1328]] [20:00:19] <kewpid> howdy enok [20:00:23] <Orderinchaos> ahh okay [20:00:26] <enochlau> hi everyone [20:00:33] <DarkFalls> hi [20:00:36] <Canley> hello [20:00:37] <enochlau> havent been here for a while :) [20:00:42] -->| Bduke has joined #wikimedia-au [20:00:51] <Orderinchaos> yay they're finally arriving :) [20:00:53] <zero1328> I've been less active for a number of months and this isn't my forte, so I'm taking a backseat to this meeting. [20:00:56] <Orderinchaos> hi bduke :) [20:01:05] <zero1328> G'morning [20:01:13] <Bduke> Hi OiC and others [20:01:14] * DarkFalls pokes YellowMonkey awake... [20:01:23] <Orderinchaos> zero: nah, all contributions are welcome. I'm a trainee teacher interested in politics and geography, and I'm here :P [20:01:28] <DarkFalls> zero1328: lol... more like night ;p [20:01:35] <IKnowNothing> DarkFalls: The golden primate doesn't stir on weekends [20:01:47] <DarkFalls> IKnowNothing: For you maybe... [20:02:02] * DarkFalls pokes the yellow primate again [20:02:06] <Orderinchaos> IKnowNothing: he's the UN observer, here on behalf of India. [20:02:15] <Bduke> He is in shock about the cricket [20:02:17] <IKnowNothing> Orderinchaos: :) [20:02:29] <Canley> Heh heh [20:02:36] <DarkFalls> Bduke: Don't watch cricket much. What happened? [20:02:47] <Bduke> India lost [20:03:01] <IKnowNothing> with 8mins left. [20:03:05] <DarkFalls> ah... against Australia? [20:03:07] <Orderinchaos> some bookmakers have got to be happy with that. [20:03:35] <Canley> DarkFalls: Yep, against Australia [20:03:39] <DarkFalls> :) [20:03:54] <DarkFalls> Riana will be in shcok :) [20:03:57] <DarkFalls> *shock [20:04:28] <DarkFalls> no wonder she skipped to Melbourne... [20:04:45] <zero1328> It looks like it's time for the meeting to begin, is there anyone important missing? [20:05:10] <DarkFalls> zero1328: Angela should be here... [20:05:11] <enochlau> I've been out of action because of my honours thesis, so who are the ones pushing the drive currently? [20:05:14] <Orderinchaos> zero: pretty much everyone :P [20:05:16] <enochlau> I understand it's the folks down in Melbourne? [20:05:23] <Orderinchaos> (as in those missing, not those here) [20:05:53] <Orderinchaos> apart from bduke and I, was anyone else at the melb meeting? [20:05:57] <DarkFalls> Orderinchaos: Giggy, Spebi etcetera... have logged out hours earlier... [20:06:35] <Orderinchaos> DarkFalls: this is more a foundation meeting though... so the sort of people we need here is like bainer etc [20:06:39] <enochlau> who is from which city? [20:06:42] <Orderinchaos> I'll see if I can find anyone on msn/gmail [20:06:45] * Orderinchaos is from Perth [20:06:46] <zero1328> Given my severly low aptitude in figuring out daylight savings time, I guess I'll wait for another hour to begin.. [20:06:49] * IKnowNothing Adelaide [20:06:55] * enochlau is from Sydney [20:07:00] <DarkFalls> Orderinchaos: Angela was here yesterday... [20:07:05] <Bduke> Melbourne [20:07:09] * DarkFalls is also from Sydney :) [20:07:17] * Confusing is from Sydney originally, but now lives in Canberra [20:07:24] <zero1328> Brisbane, here [20:07:32] * IKnowNothing is from Central Coast originally, now Adelaide (for the record) [20:07:35] <IKnowNothing> (up the Mariners) [20:07:45] <kewpid> Sydney [20:07:48] <DarkFalls> IKnowNothing: ...who's going to lose.. [20:07:52] <Canley> Melbourne [20:08:00] <IKnowNothing> DarkFalls: enough of your bullshit already :) [20:08:07] <enochlau> haha yes, i would hope to see more Melbourne people here... >.< [20:08:14] <DarkFalls> IKnowNothing: What bullshit? surely not me? [20:08:17] <enochlau> if they're going to take over the world [20:08:46] <Orderinchaos> I was in melbourne for a week and took lots of photos and met people, if that counts [20:08:52] <enochlau> that's nice [20:08:57] <DarkFalls> enochlau: They've a hard beating Sydney... talking take over the world... [20:09:04] <Canley> Orderinchaos: One of us, one of us... [20:09:08] <Confusing> brb [20:09:10] <DarkFalls> *about [20:09:12] <Orderinchaos> :D [20:09:25] <enochlau> lol [20:09:45] <DarkFalls> Orderinchaos: Becca should be here... [20:10:14] <IKnowNothing> we really cant do anything without her [20:10:22] <Bduke> I expected Sarah and Brianna too [20:10:24] <IKnowNothing> because we need her guidance with getting this off the ground. [20:10:26] <enochlau> are they all aware that the meeting is on? [20:10:33] <IKnowNothing> I believe so. [20:10:39] <Canley> I wasn't at the last Melbourne meeting, so I can't help much with what's going on... [20:10:54] <Bduke> I was and I will try [20:11:19] <enochlau> Apart from finalising the constitution, what else is there to do tonight? [20:11:36] <zero1328> Nothing, it appears [20:11:44] <enochlau> For me, I'd just like to see that there is ample opportunity for people in cities other than Melbourne to participate [20:12:05] <Bduke> The key person re the consitution is the bainer who is not here. He was going to dreft some changes to the model rules [20:12:08] <IKnowNothing> Brisbane is the only other real option for Wikimania. [20:12:20] <IKnowNothing> Sydney is too generic, and the WMF doesnt like generic cities. [20:12:31] * enochlau punches IKnowNothing [20:12:33] <zero1328> There's only a couple people who reside in Brisbane though [20:12:39] <kewpid> how is it generic? :p [20:12:39] <DarkFalls> IKnowNothing: I owe to punch you for that... [20:12:41] <IKnowNothing> Canberra, Adelaide and Hobart are, with all due respect, a bit lulzy. [20:12:45] <zero1328> And that's including me [20:12:47] <IKnowNothing> Perth might work :) [20:12:50] <DarkFalls> lulz.. [20:12:59] <DarkFalls> IKnowNothing: Perth is too isolated... [20:13:00] <enochlau> Perth has 40 degree days with stormy weather [20:13:06] <enochlau> i saw the icon on the news today [20:13:07] <DarkFalls> no offense to Orderinchaos ... [20:13:14] <IKnowNothing> DarkFalls: well, yeah. Even Chopper Reid could tell me that [20:13:29] <Bduke> I do not htink Eikimania will fly in Oz until we get Wikimedia Australia [20:13:33] <zero1328> I think this was also discussed on the mailing list.. Perth or Melbourne, but Perth is too isolated [20:13:36] <DarkFalls> meh... we hardly have any contributors from Perth... [20:13:39] <Bduke> That is a mess [20:13:40] <IKnowNothing> adelaide makes the most sense geographically, but it's so boring and too much like a hole. [20:13:57] <enochlau> Sydney is a nice place to have a conference, but I would agree that Sydney doesnt seem to maintain the level of support needed to host it here [20:13:59] <enochlau> a pity [20:14:00] <DarkFalls> IKnowNothing: Yeah... because they have you ;p [20:14:01] * IKnowNothing ducks from ... himself. [20:14:24] <Bduke> We need to get the Chapter running. That is waht I was trying to say [20:14:30] <IKnowNothing> Bduke: totally agree [20:14:32] <enochlau> yes, agreed [20:14:47] <DarkFalls> question is... how? [20:14:56] <IKnowNothing> DarkFalls: appoint a board [20:15:04] <IKnowNothing> get ChapCom to review and approve our bylaws [20:15:07] <IKnowNothing> and go from there [20:15:14] <Bduke> OK, the situation in Melbourne is that we believe we can get it incorporated under Victoria law [20:15:21] <DarkFalls> IKnowNothing: harder than it looks... [20:15:27] <IKnowNothing> cool. I see no problem with basing it in victoria [20:15:41] <IKnowNothing> and with bainer in melbourne (IIRC), obvious advantages [20:15:47] <IKnowNothing> is bainer in melbourne? [20:15:56] <DarkFalls> IKnowNothing: I think so... [20:16:04] <IKnowNothing> "bainer Thebainer e-mail Melbourne VIC" [20:16:06] <zero1328> Yes, he is [20:16:06] <IKnowNothing> yes, he is. [20:16:11] * DarkFalls pokes YellowMonkey again... [20:16:19] <IKnowNothing> Bduke: how much would it cost? [20:16:20] <enochlau> who's yellowmonkey? [20:16:23] <Bduke> Incorporation is not difficult and I know of a major Oz body that incorporates in Vic and of course operates across the country [20:16:28] <IKnowNothing> enochlau: Blnguyen. [20:16:36] <enochlau> IKnowNothing: oh of course [20:16:47] <Bduke> Cost - very little $50 or so I have offered to pay it [20:16:50] <IKnowNothing> *nod* [20:17:03] <IKnowNothing> wasn't sure if it was minimal or huge (k's) [20:17:18] <DarkFalls> Bduke: The Oz body is? [20:17:40] <IKnowNothing> question: do we finalise the bylaws or establish a board of directors before the other? chicken and the egg really :) [20:18:03] <enochlau> Logically, shouldnt we finalise the local stuff before we worry about interacting with the parent organisation? [20:18:06] <Orderinchaos> re location : brisbane's way too far for me, canberra's not much happening. perth's weather of late has been due to a rogue cyclone up north somewhere, it's hardly typical. [20:18:17] <Bduke> The Committee can be from all over the country. All we need from Vic is a Public Officer. I'm prepared to do that - seems appropriate for an oldie like me [20:18:20] <IKnowNothing> Orderinchaos: as opposed to an orderly cyclone :) [20:18:26] <IKnowNothing> Bduke: most certainly. [20:18:40] <Orderinchaos> IKnowNothing: orderly cyclones don't drop their mess this far south :P [20:19:08] <DarkFalls> Orderinchaos: Don't argue with a natural disasters freak... [20:19:09] <IKnowNothing> Bduke: anyone who's an australian resident and an established Wikimedian could be a director. [20:19:15] <IKnowNothing> in theory. [20:19:28] <Orderinchaos> and as we discussed in melb, there's no need for formal state structures at this stage [20:19:28] <Bduke> The organisation I was talking about is my professio9nal organisation - the Royal Aistralian Chemical Insitute [20:19:32] <enochlau> I don't see any problem with that. [20:19:40] <IKnowNothing> Orderinchaos: *nod* [20:19:47] <IKnowNothing> WMAU is the goal. [20:19:50] <IKnowNothing> not WMNSW :) [20:20:00] <Orderinchaos> (well WMVIC more likely :P) [20:20:21] <Orderinchaos> an informally selected representative to manage communication is really about all that's needed in each location, and we're small and tight enough groups that that's not much of a concern. [20:20:23] <enochlau> that's good, although we would need some people identified as more aligned with one state [20:20:34] <Bduke> We do not need a director. The model rules say President, V-P, Sec and Treasurer but we can and should modify the model rules. That is what I thought the bainer was doing [20:20:35] <IKnowNothing> Orderinchaos: indeed. at this stage. [20:20:37] <enochlau> e.g. if a newspaper wants someone from Sydney, they shouldnt' be referred to someone in Melbourne [20:20:46] <IKnowNothing> Bduke: by "Director" I meant "Committee" [20:21:00] <IKnowNothing> (WMUK use "Board of Directors" and I'm reading their page now) [20:21:09] <Orderinchaos> enoch: well, communication is key, but people who talk to the press should be credentialled I think [20:21:20] <IKnowNothing> Orderinchaos: agree totally. or at least vetted by WMAU [20:21:42] <Orderinchaos> we could have a list of credentialled people so we're not reliant on one [20:21:53] <Orderinchaos> but I think it needs to be very clear who can and should deal with enquiries [20:21:59] <IKnowNothing> indeed. [20:22:10] <IKnowNothing> firstname.lastname@example.org [20:22:14] <IKnowNothing> or similar [20:22:16] <enochlau> yes that's what i meant [20:22:20] <IKnowNothing> we send that email to all the news orgs etc. [20:22:34] <enochlau> but we need to ensure that there is a good geographical spread in these sort of outward-facing roles [20:22:38] <IKnowNothing> and they email that list (private list) and then the emails are directed out to the appropriate people [20:22:44] <IKnowNothing> enochlau: totally agree. see [[w:User:Sarah/WMA_press]] [20:22:45] <Orderinchaos> many media agencies are still living in the past and want a phone number [20:22:50] <Orderinchaos> (I used to work for one) [20:23:04] <IKnowNothing> Orderinchaos: Yeah, the Advertiser and (for some reason) SMH have mine. [20:23:21] <Orderinchaos> yeah most of the WA ones have mine [20:23:33] <DarkFalls> Orderinchaos: I think Angela could handle the enquiries to NSW.... [20:23:36] <IKnowNothing> I wish they'd ring me before slagging us off though :) [20:23:42] <Orderinchaos> yes :P [20:24:05] <Orderinchaos> or republish fantasy stories about... certain dramatic matters of a WR nature from the UK Daily Telegraph [20:24:05] <IKnowNothing> at least I could tell them to remove "administrators, who control content, ..." [20:24:15] <DarkFalls> IKnowNothing: lol... [20:24:16] <IKnowNothing> Orderinchaos: The Register, to be exact. :) [20:24:20] <Orderinchaos> no [20:24:32] <Orderinchaos> this one was from the daily telegraph and got reprinted in the melbourne age and then in the west... [20:24:33] <IKnowNothing> oh, have the DT joined in the shitfest? :) [20:24:45] <IKnowNothing> anyways, back to WMAU :SD [20:24:46] <IKnowNothing> :D * [20:24:50] <DarkAway> great... I need to go AFK for a few minutes... [20:25:20] <IKnowNothing> I reckon we should create a list of things to do and what order to do them in [20:25:24] <zero1328> That's alright, honestly I think we're not getting very far at the moment.. [20:25:28] <IKnowNothing> and who needs/is willing to do them. [20:25:36] <enochlau> we're not going far because key people arent here? [20:25:46] <enochlau> can anyone muster them here? phone? [20:25:50] <IKnowNothing> enochlau: kinda. we need Bainer, Sarah and Angela [20:25:51] <zero1328> Yes, pretty much. We're going over some old stuff. [20:26:12] <zero1328> On the plus side, this would refresh our minds a little [20:26:15] <Orderinchaos> I'll sms sarah, hold on [20:26:20] <Bduke> OK, could I amke a proposal. I will try to get together with the Bainer and draft some chnages to the model rules for incorporation in Victoria. We put them on meta to get a consenesus [20:26:38] <IKnowNothing> Bduke: if you do, add notices everywhere where aussies would see them on enwp please :D [20:26:49] <Bduke> Of course [20:26:51] <Canley> Bduke: Sounds good [20:26:52] <enochlau> e.g. [[Talk:Cricket]] [20:26:55] <IKnowNothing> lol [20:26:55] <IKnowNothing> :) [20:27:05] <IKnowNothing> and [[Talk:1999 Sydney hailstorm]], of ourse. [20:27:07] <Canley> enochlau: lol [20:27:10] * IKnowNothing ducks. [20:27:26] * IKnowNothing notes all the cool kids hang out on meteorology articles. [20:28:34] <Bduke> I'm hoping I could meet up with the Bainer at melbourne Uni before he startes courses there again, but it is a pity he is not here. I should have tried to contact him earlier after the Melb meet [20:28:45] <IKnowNothing> :( laptop dying. ill be back hopefully in a little while, when I get home. im sure you'll do ok without my annoying distractions [20:28:48] <IKnowNothing> tty all later [20:28:50] <--| IKnowNothing has left #wikimedia-au [20:29:01] <Orderinchaos> lol re meteorology articles [20:29:34] <zero1328> Just to reiterate, it looks like all we have to do is finalise the constitution.. has everyone read the draft? [20:30:02] <zero1328> [[Wikimedia_Australia/Draft_Constitution]] [20:30:35] <Bduke> The draft is good in its way, but we need to modify it to read as a set of modifications to the model rules. We do not want ot write a full constitution although we could [20:31:22] <Bduke> We can accept the model rules, modify them or write a full constitution [20:31:38] <Bduke> the constitution has a meet a set of criteria [20:32:23] <Bduke> A few modifications to the model rules seems best for now. We can always chaneg them at a cost of about $50 [20:32:34] <Bduke> My typing is shit [20:32:39] <Orderinchaos> :) [20:33:09] <Bduke> A good bottle of Hoddles Creek Pinot Noir is not helping [20:33:11] <Confusing> Do we have a copy of the Vic model rules on meta? [20:33:34] <Bduke> I'll try to get the URL [20:35:39] <Bduke> My machine is freezing - may have to leave for a while [20:35:55] <zero1328> :/ [20:36:02] |<-- Bduke has left freenode (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [20:36:46] <Orderinchaos> LOL... Hoddles Creek has its own bizarre wikihistory [20:37:04] <enochlau> Orderinchaos: what do you mean? [20:37:11] <Orderinchaos> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hoddles_Creek%2C_Victoria&oldid=77867409 [20:37:31] <Orderinchaos> it was something of a vandal wall for a while. damn funny read though, especially the destinations of the links. [20:37:41] -->| Bduke has joined #wikimedia-au [20:38:00] <Bduke> Back again [20:38:03] <Orderinchaos> wb :) [20:38:14] <Confusing> Damn. Can we transwiki that to Uncyclopedia or something? [20:38:20] <Confusing> And welcome back Bduke [20:38:21] <Bduke> URL is http://tinyurl.com/2glo8s [20:38:50] <Bduke> There is a download of the model rules there [20:39:14] <Orderinchaos> Confusing: we probably should. [20:40:26] -->| Becca has joined #wikimedia-au [20:40:34] <Becca> evening all [20:40:39] <Confusing> Hi Becca. [20:40:47] <Bduke> Hi [20:41:45] <enochlau> hi becca [20:43:34] <zero1328> Hrm is there anything we can go over while we wait for the key trio? [20:45:41] <enochlau> go edit something? :P [20:45:46] <enochlau> what else do wikipedians do [20:45:54] <Bduke> Do we want a Committee with State representatives now or leave that for later? [20:46:04] <Confusing> Leave it. [20:46:13] <Orderinchaos> I think we sort of decided that was best left to later [20:46:14] <enochlau> dont think we need state representatives [20:46:24] <enochlau> i think just realising who's in what state and doing things informally suffice? [20:46:32] <enochlau> dont want to be bogged down in red tape [20:46:36] <Orderinchaos> there's state input into the process anyway at an informal level, very little actually needs to be done formally [20:46:37] <Confusing> We're not going to be a large organisation, so having representatives for, say, less than 10 people per state is overkill. [20:46:46] <Bduke> Fine, so what officers other than the 4 I mentioend? [20:46:58] <Orderinchaos> we have formal officers the law and good governance requires [20:47:18] <Orderinchaos> but almost everything will be decided at a much lower level [20:47:21] <Bduke> Angela has some ideas - I forget what - Press? [20:47:55] <enochlau> Press is a good idea [20:48:07] <Confusing> Well we have press and education committees, who are (or at least were, they've been inactive) working out what we'll be doing once we have this thing running. [20:48:21] <Confusing> So we may want to make their standing more official. [20:48:27] <Bduke> How many gneral committee members? The model rules ay 2 unless we modify that clause [20:48:47] <Confusing> (COI: Currently on the Education Committee, don't particularly want a position.) [20:49:14] <Bduke> I recall Angela mentioned 2 other officers - the Bainer and I can find it later [20:50:44] <Bduke> It is looking like the 4 officers plus Press and Education + 2 general members [20:52:58] <enochlau> the number of members should really depend on how many people will join [20:53:07] <enochlau> it should allow for adquate opportunity to participate [20:53:13] <enochlau> while not having too large a committee [20:53:40] <Bduke> I'm thinking of the minimum to get going [20:53:54] <Bduke> We can add members as we grow [20:54:38] -->| jayvdb has joined #wikimedia-au [20:54:57] <jayvdb> hi everyone, am I late? [20:55:07] <Bduke> Hi John - yep [20:55:18] <jayvdb> doh [20:55:46] <zero1328> Very [20:56:12] <Bduke> jayvdb - do you want to say anything about hte Melbourne meet [20:56:40] =-= User mode for DarkAway is now -e [20:56:41] =-= YOU are now known as DarkFalls [20:56:41] =-= User mode for DarkFalls is now +e [20:56:42] [INFO] You are no longer marked as away. [20:56:55] <Confusing> wb DarkFalls, too [20:57:02] <DarkFalls> jayvdb: About an hour late ;p [20:57:15] <jayvdb> Bduke: I think it was a good location/format, and we had lots of good discussions. [20:57:38] <enochlau> in terms of format, what was good about it did you think? [20:57:52] <jayvdb> there was a call for a timeline to be written, and from what I've read on the mailing list, that has been roughly drafted [20:58:59] <Bduke> but we did not get the Bainer to give us any ideas for the model rules. I should have asked him. I suspect nobody did after the meet [20:59:16] <jayvdb> half of the time was around a table in a laid back setting. we probably went in circles at times, but the discussion hit a lot of topics. [21:00:35] <jayvdb> and then the other half was more social, which is needed so we know how each other are, and how we can work together more effectively [21:01:11] <zero1328> jayvdb, I should say that although you're late, there has been minimal progress in this meeting. Bainer, Sarah and Angela are absent... [21:01:19] <enochlau> zero: agreed [21:01:41] <enochlau> jayvdb: i think the melbourne guys need to show how to do things to sydney people :) [21:02:38] <jayvdb> ok, does anyone have to leave any time soon or can this meeting go on for another hour or two as ppl find time ? [21:02:46] <Bduke> We have been here an hour. Can we leave it that I will try to talk to the Bainer real soon to draft some modifications to the model rules for incorpoation in Victoria and to put those as a firm proposal on meta with notices everywhere we can think of [21:03:24] <jayvdb> has a timeline been informally put on meta ? [21:03:44] <Bduke> I'm happy to stay but I think we need a firm proposal for progrress [21:04:15] <enochlau> yes, how about we spent just a few more minutes working out what to do [21:04:18] <enochlau> and leave it at that [21:04:28] <Bduke> Timeline - we said we would do it by New year so we are behind [21:05:03] <Bduke> enochlau - what do you sugergst? [21:05:36] <enochlau> we're not seriously aiming for Wikimania in 09 are we? [21:05:48] <enochlau> because the bidding closes soon right? [21:05:54] <zero1328> At this rate it seems highly unlikely. [21:06:10] <jayvdb> re timeline, if there isnt one on meta, I can do one using the Timeline extension. [21:06:12] <Confusing> I think the aim is Wikimedia AU in 08, a local Wikimania-like conference in 09, and a bid for Wikimania 2010. [21:06:23] <Bduke> If we could get the chapter up in the first half of 2008, maybe [21:07:01] <enochlau> do we know if bainer et al are busy currently? [21:07:02] <Bduke> Confusing may have it better [21:07:15] <jayvdb> sounds good. [21:07:15] <Bduke> who is et al? [21:07:16] <enochlau> how likely are they to provide the time to help us finalise the documents? [21:07:22] <enochlau> the other people working with him [21:07:28] <enochlau> on the documents [21:07:38] <jayvdb> have we decided on a membership fee structure ? [21:08:03] <enochlau> it was in the email [21:08:22] <enochlau> Membership Fee [21:08:24] <enochlau> Full -- $40 [21:08:25] <enochlau> Concession -- $20 [21:08:28] <jayvdb> enochlau: thebainer is probably a bit swamped at the moment, having taken on arbcom. it will be good to have Bduke paired with him to keep the Wikimedia AU establishment progressing [21:08:38] <Bduke> Nobody is working with him. He offered to do it, but was not at the melbourne meet. That is why I am ofering to chase him up, meet with him and get it done [21:08:47] <enochlau> oh i see [21:08:51] |<-- kewpid has left freenode (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [21:08:57] <enochlau> yes, he got arbcom. congrats to him [21:08:58] <jayvdb> is everyone happy with 40/20 ? it definitely works for me. [21:09:13] <Becca> enochlau: that seems like a lot of many. what services do we intend to provide for that, and what do we need the money for? [21:09:19] <Becca> *money [21:09:24] <jayvdb> do we want to have a formal/informal way to donate more to the WMF-AU ? [21:09:34] <jayvdb> hi Becca [21:09:37] <enochlau> becca: i just copied from email, i wasnt expressing agreement with figure [21:09:55] <Bduke> I would go for less until we can show we need the money [21:10:06] <enochlau> hmm i think there might've been something on meta about proposed activities [21:10:08] <enochlau> hang on [21:11:10] <Confusing> [[Wikimedia_Australia#Roles_an_Australian_Chapter_could_play]] which is a little out of date (Wikimania 08 bid?) [21:11:34] <Becca> can you explain here? my internet is going hellishly slow [21:11:36] <enochlau> [[Wikimedia_Australia]] [21:11:44] <enochlau> sure i can paste them here [21:11:52] <enochlau> * Promotion: Promotion of Wikimedia projects and Free content in general. To encourage the use of Wikimedia resources in education (at primary, secondary and tertiary levels). To provide a first point of contact for media people seeking comment from Australian contributors to Wikimedia projects. [21:11:55] <enochlau> * Recruitment: To recruit non-technically minded people to contribute to Wikimedia projects. This may involve some education on the use of Mediawiki software. [21:11:57] <enochlau> * Social: Organisation of conventions [21:11:58] <enochlau> * Research: With a local chapter, research should be easier. The chapter can work together to gather information on a range of topics not currently covered. [21:11:59] <enochlau> * Wikinews Accreditation: A local chapter could possibly oversee Wikinews accreditation in Australia... ? I have no idea what issues are involed here, just throwing it up as something to think about. - Borofkin 03:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC) [21:12:01] <enochlau> o Yes, absolutely!! pfctdayelise 15:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC) [21:12:02] <jayvdb> Bduke: who do you see benefiting from lower numbers? I saw the email about strapped uni students, and most of us have been there and can associate with it, but that would only justify lowering the student rate. [21:12:03] <enochlau> * Partnerships: with companies in Australia wanting to work with Wikimedia content in some way. For example, Directmedia worked with the German chapter to produce the German DVD/Book release. [21:12:04] <enochlau> * Possible Projects: Contribution of Australian history and culture to Wikimedia projects. [21:12:06] <enochlau> * Hosting Wikimania 2008, see the bid development page [21:12:08] <enochlau> * Fundraising. I put my hand up for that! Auroranorth` [21:12:20] <enochlau> i'm a student and i'm happy with 20 [21:12:26] <enochlau> although i live with my parents :P so that helps me a lot [21:12:51] <zero1328> Um.. how often is that? yearly or monthly? [21:12:58] <enochlau> i think it's yearly? [21:13:03] <Canley> yearly I'm sure it was [21:13:10] <Becca> i still don't see how any of that requires such a high fee. [21:13:17] <zero1328> If it's yearly I'm sure that fee is fine. [21:13:23] <Becca> most of it are projects that would cover themselves. [21:13:35] <Confusing> The one's we'd probably be using our money for would be research (possibly buying subscriptions to databases and other similar resources?) Partnerships (in preparing contacts) and conventions (although most of that would be covered more by sponsorship and ticket prices) [21:13:46] <Bduke> Jay, I understand your point. I was suggestting only a small decrease perhaps. Too low and people think we are not worth anything. I would go for maybe 30:15, but 40:20 could be OK [21:13:52] <jayvdb> Becca: outreach can cost a lot. [21:13:56] <enochlau> having some money to use in preparing for an (eventual) wikimania bid would be useful [21:14:33] <enochlau> seriously, i'd say we need to put some money into this organisation if we want it to grow. if we find it has too much cash at the end of the year, we can lower it next year [21:14:47] <Becca> what sort of organisation charges that much annually for nothing in return? [21:14:50] <Becca> i'm struggling to think of an example. [21:14:55] <Bduke> Agree - wikimania bid might need cash [21:15:13] <enochlau> can we get tax-deductible status in australia?> [21:15:17] <Becca> enochlau: i think you're tying your hands from the start by ensuring only hardcore wikipedia people join. [21:15:18] <enochlau> it's more like a donation then, is it not? [21:15:34] <Bduke> Bec, do you really think it would offer you nothing? [21:15:43] <DarkFalls> Confusing: Subscription to databases can be acquired for free with libraries and universities... [21:16:04] <enochlau> at university, we often have to pay to join clubs. how it works is that the people who really want to be part of it and get a lot out of it pay up. the ones who just want to keep in contact are put on an unofficial free mailing list [21:16:07] <enochlau> but they are not members [21:16:32] <Bduke> Tax deductable is complex - a definite maybe as sam Godwin said [21:16:40] <jayvdb> enochlau: i think our official mailing list would need to be free and open anyway [21:16:52] <Confusing> DarkFalls: True, but not every university has access to every catalogue. And sometimes even when you find a resource, there may be costs involved in acquiring it. [21:17:09] <DarkFalls> Confusing: However if we combine our resources together? [21:17:09] <jayvdb> (btw, is anyone logging this IRC session?) [21:17:11] <enochlau> jayvdb:yes, im just using that as an example to negate the idea that we'll be exclusionist [21:17:19] <enochlau> jayvdb: good question, someone should [21:17:22] <DarkFalls> jayvdb: I have it logged... [21:17:23] <enochlau> i dont know how :S [21:17:23] <Becca> enochlau: can you think of any university club that charges $20/year? [21:17:36] <zero1328> ahhh I hope X-chat hasn't truncated anything.. [21:17:47] <enochlau> well the union at usyd charges $99 before you can join any clubs whatsoever [21:17:48] <Becca> Bduke: what would it offer individual subscribers? [21:17:57] <enochlau> some clubs charge as high as $10 but you need to take into account the initial $99 cost [21:18:00] <jayvdb> DarkFalls: cheers. does anyone mind if the IRC session is sent to the mailing list ? [21:18:08] <enochlau> put it onto meta [21:18:10] <enochlau> and then send a link [21:18:13] <DarkFalls> not at all... [21:18:16] <enochlau> that's how it's usually done :) dont flood mailboxes [21:18:19] <zero1328> The log would be far too long for the mailing list [21:18:47] <enochlau> did we ever consider the tax deductible thing> [21:18:48] <jayvdb> IRC sessions usually go on meta ? ive not seen that yet [21:18:51] <zero1328> I hope someone else is logging too [21:18:54] <enochlau> i mean, it was one of the original, practical reasons for starting WMA [21:19:06] <Bduke> Becca - the right to have a say and help to support the wiki at the very least [21:19:11] <DarkFalls> jayvdb: The ones which are not private can go anywhere... [21:19:16] <enochlau> e.g. [[Wikimedia_Australia/Meeting_4/Log]] [21:19:19] <jayvdb> tax deductible has been pushed out until much later; next year, whatever. its too tough to work that out at the same time as everything else [21:19:42] <enochlau> jayvdb: yep [21:19:46] <Becca> Bduke: you're really limiting the amount of people who might get involved though - you're effectively enforcing a large donation, which only the hardcore people will do. [21:20:03] <Bduke> Tax deductable - agree with Jay, but Ill look into it [21:20:28] <Bduke> Becca. hey I di'nt suggets the $40. I suggested less [21:20:39] <enochlau> you dont need to be a member to participate. surely, if we organise a large-scale, say, Wiki Festival, non-members would be able to come. [21:21:28] <zero1328> WikiFest, huh? sounds like it could be some fun edutainment [21:21:33] <Confusing> enochlau: Absolutely. [21:21:48] <Becca> enochlau: sure, but you're stopping anyone from getting involved beyond that. [21:21:51] <Confusing> WikiFest, the carnival that anyone can edit! [21:22:03] <Becca> honestly, i wouldn't go over what we actually need for admin costs. [21:22:10] <Becca> $5/$10 max. [21:22:23] <Becca> that's likely to pay for itself in more members, too. [21:22:41] <jayvdb> Becca: I have been advocating a higher rate, because at least initially I expect the people willing to help set it up will be keen to help float it monetarily, and I dont think we want to have to deal with application forms from hundreds/thousands/whatever of people who can find $10 spare. [21:23:11] <enochlau> Becca: i understand your point and i can see some merit, but there are a lot of unknowns [21:23:16] <Bduke> Why do we not have a non-vote on the meta page about hte sub and see if we can get consensus? [21:23:30] <enochlau> $40/$20 is not unreasonable as a starting point. we can always change it later [21:23:44] <jayvdb> Becca: what about if one of us set up a copy of the databases, updated weekly, and membership gets you an account on the box ? [21:24:00] <enochlau> what databases are these? [21:24:15] <zero1328> There's not much point in talking about the initial costs I think, since we can't predict how well this thing would run. [21:24:23] <jayvdb> there are lots of ways we can spend the money to benefit members, but without money its hard to even bother considering how to benefit the members [21:24:36] <Orderinchaos> $20 would be quite high from my budgetary POV - being a student on centrelink that's 12% of my gross weekly earnings. [21:24:51] <Confusing> brb [21:25:00] <enochlau> yes but from an accounting perspective, surely you'd amortise that over 52 weeks [21:25:07] <zero1328> Overcompensating for the initial year is a good idea, but I'm no expert [21:25:10] <enochlau> and realise it's 38c a week ;) [21:25:15] <Orderinchaos> and yeah the local project management chapter charges $10 per year for concession, $40 for non-concession [21:25:38] <jayvdb> enochlau: the en.wp database would be the primary candidate to set up on a managed box [21:25:43] <Orderinchaos> when you factor in how many things people are members of too [21:26:04] <enochlau> jayvdb: im confused. why would we want a copy of en.wp? [21:26:06] <Becca> enochlau: it's just that if you set it high, you've got to justify to people who aren't hardcore wikifans why they should bother. and "well, it'll give us money to do stuff" isn't really going to cut it. [21:26:08] <Bduke> so let us discuss the sub on a wiki that gives us time to think [21:26:12] <jayvdb> i am ok with 40/10. how does everyone feel about that ? [21:26:21] <Becca> so you're going to drive down your membership significantly. which gives you less weight. [21:26:31] <Becca> it's still way too high for an organisation that offers no services. [21:26:34] <enochlau> what do they charge in germany, UK? [21:26:48] <Bduke> Quite a bit [21:27:10] <Orderinchaos> keeping in mind UK has a much higher standard of living - when I was there a normal music CD cost over $40 AU [21:27:28] <enochlau> Becca: on the flipside, if you've got no money to do anything, you've got an organisation that can't do anything at all even if we wanted to. [21:27:45] <enochlau> :O $40 for a CD!? [21:27:47] <jayvdb> Becca: we will offer services. the DE chapter provides a local cache of the live wiki so that German readers have *quick* pages. we could do the same in Australia [21:27:53] <Orderinchaos> I think becca's arguing that it's a false economy because if you set it at double what people can afford and don't get half the members you're making a loss. [21:28:12] <Orderinchaos> (I hope I've got that right?) [21:28:20] <enochlau> well yes, i see the economics of it [21:28:28] <enochlau> but i could argue that people are still willing to pay that prie [21:28:28] <DarkFalls> Apparently £20 p.a. for Wikimedia UK... [21:28:31] <enochlau> *priced [21:28:39] <enochlau> we don't have any information [21:28:50] <Orderinchaos> who, firstly, are we aiming this at? [21:28:54] <DarkFalls> which is roughly around (guessing here) around 35 AUD? [21:29:03] <Orderinchaos> 20 pounds = $50 AU [21:29:12] <enochlau> DarkFalls: is tehre a concession price? [21:29:16] <DarkFalls> Orderinchaos: meh... never was good with finances... [21:29:28] <jayvdb> I would prefer to see a tight knit group of people the first year, so we can determine/manage the structure within the set of people we already know [21:29:33] <Becca> enochlau: a very small number are willing to pay that price. they're the really keen ones. you lose out on the chance to have a general membership base beyond those who are actively involved all the time. [21:29:41] <DarkFalls> Oh oops... I accidentally got the wrong thing.. [21:29:42] <Orderinchaos> it's a 4:10 ratio ... 6:10 with the euro, pretty handy conversion ratios to remember :) [21:29:46] <Becca> jayvdb: you can still do that - the active people will make the calls. [21:29:48] <DarkFalls> [[Membership_of_Wikimedia_UK]] [21:29:56] <Becca> but you'll have a broader membership base to rely on. [21:30:02] <Bduke> UK charges 25 quid which is about $60 [21:30:08] <Becca> so people wil like, come to your conferences and stuff. [21:30:22] <enochlau> becca: with your model though, are we aiming too big to start with? [21:30:41] <jayvdb> and how will we pay for Jimbo to come to our conferences ? :-) [21:30:50] <zero1328> Jimbo's made of money [21:30:53] <zero1328> He's fine [21:30:54] <enochlau> becca: just to avoid any confusion, are you [[User:Rebecca]]? [21:30:59] <Orderinchaos> the option is always to charge a base membership fee then have fundraising drives for particular efforts [21:31:01] <jayvdb> thats not the point. we pay for speakers. [21:31:17] <DarkFalls> enochlau: yes she is... [21:31:22] <enochlau> ok [21:31:27] <Orderinchaos> eg if we have an event coming up then those who can afford it might put in an extra $10 or $15 [21:32:17] <Bduke> UK concession is 15 quid [21:32:19] <Orderinchaos> an interesting side-question - would we accept donations from people, as wikimedia itself does? [21:32:38] <Orderinchaos> or do we have to have some special status to do taht [21:32:40] <Orderinchaos> that [21:32:42] <zero1328> I assumed yes [21:32:44] <DarkFalls> Orderinchaos: Don't see any reason why not? [21:32:45] <enochlau> orderinchaos: i dont see why not, but until we get tax deduction status, it's going to be rather unappealling [21:32:49] <jayvdb> Orderinchaos: yes, and we discussed corp. sponsorship at the melb meeting as well [21:33:15] <Bduke> Donations - any time, any place [21:33:18] <jayvdb> hehe [21:33:24] <Orderinchaos> wasn't that a janet jackson song? [21:33:52] <jayvdb> the cost of membership has been one of the more difficult decisions to nail down. [21:34:04] <enochlau> orderinchaos:[[w:Any_Time,_Any_Place]] [21:34:12] <jayvdb> how can we make it final, tonight? [21:34:56] <enochlau> personally, i think there are always going to be differences on opinion on this issue. there are still good arguments from both sides and i think it might be offensive to set the price down tonight. [21:35:00] <Bduke> We can notmake it final. It is part of the mods to the mod rules. Let us have another go when we have a draft [21:35:08] <zero1328> We're just going in circles.. Like I said, we have no experience so we can't predict how much money would be used.. a little overcompensation is alright in my mind. [21:35:15] <enochlau> there are still plenty to do, and the numbers can be tweaked right up until the last moment. [21:35:29] <enochlau> zero: well said [21:35:50] <jayvdb> ok [21:35:57] <zero1328> Even if we had advice from another chapter member, we have to take into accuont the different states of the country. [21:35:58] <enochlau> to do it properly, someone will need to sit down with a spreadsheet and add up all the costs [21:36:03] <DarkFalls> economic considerations aside, how are we going to "make it final"? [21:36:03] <enochlau> probably with an accountant with real expereince [21:36:57] <jayvdb> DarkFalls: I was thinking along the lines of writing it in wikistone, for final comment/vote/whatever. [21:36:57] <enochlau> process-wise, a poll on meta isnt such a bad idea [21:37:14] <Bduke> Make it final? Surely by a discussion on the meta page that leads to us asking for incorporation. Then we need a General meeting under those rules [21:37:27] <jayvdb> these decisions will all get left to the last minute unless we can agree to disagree and settle on sensible outcomes [21:37:29] <enochlau> consensus is a big part of what we do on-wiki, so we should try and use it off-wiki too where applicable [21:38:15] <jayvdb> bb in 5 [21:38:20] <enochlau> sorry, i need to go now, have things to do. [21:38:33] <Becca> enochlau: how did you guess? :P [21:39:01] <enochlau> i'll just say before i leave that we need to set a timeline for the next several weeks, and set up some polls on meta. also, need to discuss with bainer about the constitution, find helpers if he's too busy. i'll read the logs later. [21:39:08] <enochlau> becca: im psychic, clearly. [21:39:11] <enochlau> bye [21:39:16] <zero1328> Bye [21:39:35] |<-- enochlau has left freenode ("ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox 22.214.171.124/2007112718]") [21:39:55] <zero1328> How feasible would it be to do the timelines and such by either today or tomorrow? [21:40:21] <Bduke> I will approach Steven Bain and organise a meeting. I'll invite others if possible [21:40:51] <zero1328> You mean IRC, right? [21:41:30] <Bduke> No, I mean a real meeting to draft something that goes on the meta page dor discussion [21:41:58] <Bduke> IRC is not a good place to write legal documents [21:42:05] <Orderinchaos> LOL [21:42:37] <Confusing> As several government departments around the world have discovered. [21:42:46] <Orderinchaos> (I'm sure IKnowNothing would come up with a funny reply if he was here) [21:42:53] <Orderinchaos> confusing: oh? [21:43:18] <Bduke> LOL. Has anyone tried to write a legal doc in IRC? [21:44:02] <zero1328> Uh, well, anywho, is there anything else we can cover today without Bain, Sarah or Angela's input? [21:44:18] <jayvdb> back, armed with a coffee [21:44:18] |<-- Canley has left freenode (Connection timed out) [21:44:19] <DarkFalls> Bduke: Quiet... the NSA might be waiting for someone to say "yes" so they could jump us... [21:44:54] <Confusing> Orderinchaos: Yeah. I can't remember the specifics, but I recall at least two government departments that set up wikis that were open to the public, for the purpose of getting "community input" on policy decisions. The result was ... well, they could at least have used an RC patrol. [21:45:04] <Orderinchaos> LOL! [21:45:11] <jayvdb> I can do the timeline, and put it on meta tonight [21:45:22] <Orderinchaos> that owuld have been fun to see [21:46:00] <jayvdb> Bduke: I think it would be better if you and Steve worked on it together first. too many ppl and delays will occur, and the meeting will go it all sorts of directions [21:46:05] <Bduke> Timeline - I'll aim to see the Bainer before Australia Day [21:46:17] <Confusing> I think one of the more amusing comments was something where there was a section on parliamentary party involvement, and someone responded something like "Ooh, a party? Will there be cake?" [21:47:22] <Bduke> Can I suggest we close it down for tonight? [21:47:45] <DarkFalls> Bduke: Any suggested date for the next meeting? [21:47:49] <zero1328> Unless you have any other ideas, then I suggest we hould as well [21:48:33] <Bduke> Next meeting - lets get someting to the meta page, discuss it and then see about a date for a meeting [21:48:49] <zero1328> I think the next meeting should be shortly after your meeting with Bain, naturally [21:48:49] <jayvdb> is this channel often populated ? [21:48:58] <Orderinchaos> that seems like a reasonable proposal [21:49:14] <Confusing> The natural state for this channel is dead, from my infrequent visits. [21:49:21] <DarkFalls> jayvdb: It's usually only me and Blnguyen here... [21:49:35] <Orderinchaos> and normally he's dead [21:49:42] <Bduke> Good question. I come here at times and find nobody. I guess htere are too few of us [21:49:45] <zero1328> There's always been low activity [21:49:57] <zero1328> For.. maybe forever [21:50:15] <jayvdb> *shrug* ill start idling here. [21:50:25] <DarkFalls> Bduke: Hardly anyone goes on meta... I suggest we publicize it on the Australian Noticeboard next time... [21:50:32] <Orderinchaos> let's all idle together. [21:50:38] <Orderinchaos> it sounds almost buddhist. :) [21:51:08] <jayvdb> I would prefer that we keep this on meta. Brianna is mainly a Commons person, and lately I am mainly a Wikisource person [21:51:47] <Confusing> Can we make a list on meta of the pages to spam when things are happenings? [21:51:48] <jayvdb> Wikipedia is only one of our projects :P [21:52:02] <Orderinchaos> that being said we can get higher participation by making a mention there [21:52:16] <Orderinchaos> as long as those turning up aren't expecting cakes and coffee on the way in :P [21:52:17] <DarkFalls> jayvdb: I'm not suggesting that we move it to Wikipedia... a short mention at [[w:Wikipedia:WikiProject_Australia/Newsletter]] could generate more activity... [21:52:32] <Orderinchaos> or even WP:AWNB header [21:52:33] <Confusing> That at WP:AWNB [21:52:35] <zero1328> Hm.. oh! Australia Day is a public holiday, right? We could hold the meeting then [21:52:35] <Bduke> Meta. Yes, that is where we discuss, but we need to publicise it on a whole load of places [21:53:05] <DarkFalls> zero1328: good idea... but I suspect many would be out celebrating... [21:53:08] <Orderinchaos> zero: but the Dandy Warhols told me every day is a holiday :| [21:53:30] <DarkFalls> Orderinchaos: There's no easy way to say this but.... they lied :-O [21:53:33] <Orderinchaos> yeah and any time a couple of hours either side of 8pm Perth time would be bad for any WA correspondents [21:53:43] <zero1328> Well, it's the only day I can think of where everyone would have some time to come in here [21:53:47] <Orderinchaos> we hold the second biggest fireworks in the country after Sydney NYE around then [21:53:48] <jayvdb> what about the night before Australia Day ? [21:53:50] <zero1328> guaranted [21:54:10] <Orderinchaos> DarkFalls: those damn filthy musicians... [21:54:26] <DarkFalls> heh... [21:54:49] <DarkFalls> zero1328: jayvdb said the day before Australia Day... [21:54:59] <zero1328> Does anyone have any objections to the night before Aussie Day? [21:55:02] <Bduke> OK, I'm off. e-mail me from my wikipedia page if you have ideas for when I see see Steven [21:55:04] <DarkFalls> nope. [21:55:24] <DarkFalls> Bduke: Preferably before Australia day... [21:55:24] <jayvdb> Bduke: ok, cya. [21:55:42] <Confusing> Sounds ok to me. Put a Proposed Meeting subpage on meta and send something to the ML. [21:56:01] <--| Bduke has left #wikimedia-au [21:56:17] <zero1328> Ok then, lets just make it the same time as today? 2000 AEDT, 25 Jan, Friday [21:56:37] <DarkFalls> zero1328: yep... [21:57:39] <jayvdb> that will be 5pm on a Friday in WA. I think it needs to be later [21:57:51] <Orderinchaos> 6pm actually [21:57:55] <Orderinchaos> thanks to our stupid government [21:57:59] <jayvdb> oh? [21:58:01] <jayvdb> ah [21:58:05] <Orderinchaos> but yeah, 25th is a working day [21:58:09] <zero1328> Argh damnit, I'm really terrible with Daylight time [21:58:09] <Orderinchaos> so should be later than 6pm [21:58:17] <DarkFalls> Orderinchaos: 9 AEDT? [21:58:30] <Orderinchaos> (note I don't work so what I think is immaterial here :P) [21:58:49] <DarkFalls> can't do later than 10... as I need to go to work a few hours later :-S [21:58:50] <jayvdb> Orderinchaos: noted. [21:58:52] <jayvdb> :-) [21:59:14] <Confusing> Shall we make it please try to get into chat at 8.30 AEDT, for a 9PM start? [21:59:23] <jayvdb> Confusing: sounds good. [21:59:29] <Confusing> That way we don't have so much of the dragging on that we did tonight. [21:59:30] <Orderinchaos> 8:30 actually seems reasonable for a start time to be honest [21:59:39] <jayvdb> ill try not to be an hour late next time [21:59:43] <zero1328> The dragging on was caused by our lack of direction today [21:59:51] <zero1328> I think we'll be fine next time [22:00:01] <Orderinchaos> we'd had the last meeting, we really didn't have any new ideas since the last one, but needed to make progress [22:00:04] <Orderinchaos> so today's was kind of odd [22:00:46] <jayvdb> end of meeting ? [22:00:56] <zero1328> Yep, lets call it a day. [22:01:17] <DarkFalls> no reason to prolong it without any new ideas... [22:01:28] <Orderinchaos> Ithink the actual meeting stopped quite a while ago [22:01:46] <zero1328> It's all going to be in the meeting log anyhow [22:01:52] <zero1328> I think [22:01:55] <DarkFalls> it is... [22:02:09] <DarkFalls> unless anyone has objections to this log being published?