Wikimedia Australia/Meeting 1/Log (evening)
[20:02] <Cartman02au> evening people
[20:02] <EuropracBHIT> Evening, Nathan.
[20:02] <Cartman02au> how goes it?
[20:02] <EuropracBHIT> All right. This last half an hour has been wracking.
[20:03] <EuropracBHIT> The afternoon meeting was good; we got stuff resolved.
[20:03] <EuropracBHIT> Well, as resolved as it can be.
[20:03] <Cartman02au> I read the logs :)
[20:03] <EuropracBHIT> I see some new and different faces.
[20:03] <Cartman02au> very cool
[20:03] <EuropracBHIT> (Did you also read the summary. One person's opinion, mind).
[20:03] <Cartman02au> I did, very good :)
[20:03] <EuropracBHIT> Anything I should have added or left out?
[20:04] * Joins: Commander_Keane
[20:04] <EuropracBHIT> Hi Commander Keane.
[20:04] <Cartman02au> nope, looks good
[20:04] <Cartman02au> hi commander
[20:04] <EuropracBHIT> Good. I was worried for a few minutes there, that it wasn't NPOV.
[20:04] <Cartman02au> great job there Bronwyn :)
[20:04] <EuropracBHIT> You too.
[20:05] <Cartman02au> thanks
[20:05] <EuropracBHIT> Now, Croperz. I know you did something about the Monash University shooting.
[20:05] <EuropracBHIT> Did anyone else read the logs? Do you have any comments to make? Anything we didn't discuss?
[20:06] <EuropracBHIT> (Now, come, I'm sure everybody else did ... )
[20:06] <Cartman02au> I am not entirely sure about the user group idea
[20:06] <Commander_Keane> Hi everyone. Is the meeting over?
[20:06] <Martyman> I read the logs, took a while. The summary was much snappier. ;)
[20:06] <Cartman02au> I would like to see the foundation keep it's "branches" homogenous
[20:06] <Croperz> wahey, somebody said my name :)
[20:07] <EuropracBHIT> Why aren't you sure? Oh, I see. What do you mean by 'homogenous'.
[20:07] <EuropracBHIT> On wiki no-one hears you scream :).
[20:07] <Cartman02au> the same or similar strutcure - homogeneous = same/similar
[20:07] <Croperz> i go to Monash Uni EuropracBHI T, but i wasn't there when the shooting happened
[20:07] <Cartman02au> basically if the branches (which are what I see chapters) are called chapters we should be a chapter
[20:07] <EuropracBHIT> Good. It would have been scary if you had been. Would have scarred me for life.
[20:08] <EuropracBHIT> You're on the chapters committee; you should know this.
[20:08] <Cartman02au> a user group doesnt really fit
[20:08] <Cartman02au> I should know which?
[20:08] * Joins: Chuq
[20:08] <EuropracBHIT> (How is the committee going ... ?)
[20:08] <EuropracBHIT> Um, how chapters work and how user groups work.
[20:08] <EuropracBHIT> And why one structure is better than the other.
[20:08] <Cartman02au> Quite well actually, we are caught up in a small legal problem atm
[20:09] <EuropracBHIT> What? How? Please explain further ...
[20:09] <Cartman02au> User groups (to me) are a small group of users who meet to get things done
[20:09] <EuropracBHIT> Wikimedia Australia will get things done.
[20:09] <EuropracBHIT> I don't know what things, yet. I don't know that anybody knows.
[20:09] <EuropracBHIT> But we WILL do things.
[20:09] <Cartman02au> true, but a user group is kind of informal
[20:10] <EuropracBHIT> Or is the issue with the 'small'. And the 'informal'.
[20:10] * Joins: bainer
[20:10] <EuropracBHIT> There are lots of user groups that are formal. Like Linux and the PC group. To name two in Melbourne.
[20:10] <Cartman02au> a chapter is more formal. Basically (again my view) I see WMA being used to promote the Wikimedia projects and free content in general
[20:10] <bainer> hello again all
[20:10] <EuropracBHIT> I understand that. I completely understand that.
[20:10] <EuropracBHIT> Hello.
[20:11] <EuropracBHIT> It's a very formal aim when you put it like that.
[20:11] <Cartman02au> To me, a user group seems less formal. Another question - aren't user groups generally local?
[20:11] <Cartman02au> I think that is the point of most chapters. It is like a face for the projects
[20:11] <EuropracBHIT> AUSOM isn't. It's all over Melbourne and regional Victoria. And then the Retirees and others spread through.
[20:11] <EuropracBHIT> Local in terms of state? Some people think that Wikimedia needs more than a pretty face.
[20:12] <EuropracBHIT> Like Enoch.
[20:12] <EuropracBHIT> (I know, I shouldn't discuss him when he isn't here).
[20:12] <EuropracBHIT> (But I'm only discussing his opinion ... )
[20:12] <Cartman02au> Thats fine :)
[20:12] <Cartman02au> "Chapters bring a wealth of local knowledge to the foundation and can tailor themselves to suit local needs. They provide a point of contact for the foundation at the local level, facilitating representatio n and presence which could not otherwise be realised."
[20:12] <Cartman02au> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapters_committee/Scope_and_area_of_delegation/draft
[20:12] <EuropracBHIT> So if the local knowledge can be harnessed through a user group structure, then we should pursue it.
[20:12] <Cartman02au> Perhaps
[20:12] <bainer> having someone to do local press work is very important
[20:13] <Cartman02au> indeed
[20:13] <bainer> although that doesn't exactly need a chapter
[20:13] <Cartman02au> I guess my perception of a user group is narrow
[20:13] <bainer> something I mentioned in the afternoon meeting was an idea from WM UK's page, to work with local history organisations
[20:13] <EuropracBHIT> Mine too, a little bit. As I said in the afternoon, it's really been 8 years since.
[20:13] <EuropracBHIT> YES!
[20:13] <EuropracBHIT> Bainer, you are so good.
[20:13] <Cartman02au> That is something I would like to see
[20:13] <EuropracBHIT> There's the Knox Historical Society; I'm sure they'd be willing.
[20:14] <EuropracBHIT> And lots of others in the eastern suburbs, and others can say where they live ...
[20:14] <Cartman02au> I used to know the leading historian in Bathurst, but he died :'(
[20:14] <EuropracBHIT> How tragic.
[20:14] <Cartman02au> A great loss to the city
[20:14] <EuropracBHIT> These people generally are. And then with the news we can get onto history as it happens.
[20:15] <EuropracBHIT> University of the Third Age is a great way to connect with senior citizens and build relationships.
[20:15] <Cartman02au> I have liked that idea since it was first mentioned
[20:15] <bainer> there's a wealth of primary source material we can leverage, and having a formal organisation and a little money to work with would help us exploit them
[20:15] <Cartman02au> I would like to see us assist them as much as we can. I think that U3A could benefit us as much as we can benefit them
[20:15] <EuropracBHIT> That's right - people are our greatest resource.
[20:15] <EuropracBHIT> It would be a truly recipricoal relationship.
[20:16] <Cartman02au> bainer: that is my problem with a user group. I doubt a user group could get DGR status
[20:16] <EuropracBHIT> I don't know any user groups who did that.
[20:16] <Cartman02au> I doubt that they could (there again they may not need to)
[20:17] <EuropracBHIT> Do you mind if I do any googling?
[20:17] <Cartman02au> no problems
[20:17] <EuropracBHIT> I should have done some pre-googling, of course.
[20:17] <Cartman02au> also look at some user groups on business.gov.au I am sure they list DGR status
[20:17] <EuropracBHIT> Thank you! This is the site of the group with which I was involved: business.gov.au
[20:18] <EuropracBHIT> Freudian slip there: http://ausom.net.au/
[20:18] <Cartman02au> I need mac help LOL
[20:19] <EuropracBHIT> Me too! I've been using Windows for the past 8 years, under duress. I would really love to learn how to use Unix and Linux in the future.
[20:19] <EuropracBHIT> If Wikimedia Australia ever became a registered training organisation , we could get DGR that way.
[20:20] <Cartman02au> I can use MacOS, Linux, Windows, etc but I hurt my ibook badly today LOL
[20:20] <EuropracBHIT> What happened to your IBook?
[20:20] <Cartman02au> we should be able to get DGR under the educational charity rules
[20:20] <EuropracBHIT> What about the rest of you? What operating systems are you competent in?
[20:20] <Cartman02au> The keyboard connector broke when putting a new hard disk :(
[20:21] <EuropracBHIT> That must have hurt. So you couldn't type anything? Oh dear. How big is your hard disk?
[20:21] <Martyman> should unclip the ribbon connector before pulling on the cable.
[20:21] <Cartman02au> It isnt a ribbon connector
[20:21] <Cartman02au> It broke going in :(
[20:21] <Martyman> no?
[20:21] <EuropracBHIT> Ugh!
[20:21] <Cartman02au> 20GB drive. No it has ribbon going to a board with IDCs on it
[20:22] <EuropracBHIT> I don't get computers sometimes.
[20:22] <EuropracBHIT> And what are IDC's incidentally?
[20:23] <Martyman> Anyway I noiced in the log that Canberra and universities where mentioned. I work at the ANU in Canberra.
[20:23] <EuropracBHIT> I see. What could you do for us? Maybe we could use the ANU as a base and address for mail.
[20:23] <EuropracBHIT> (That solves our problem ... )
[20:23] <EuropracBHIT> Thank you Martyman.
[20:24] <Martyman> I know the computer science department hosts the Canberra Linux Group
[20:24] <EuropracBHIT> And we could colloborate with the group.
[20:24] <EuropracBHIT> Offer them something for nothing ...
[20:25] <Martyman> http://www.clug.org.au/ a typical small unorganised "Users Group"
[20:25] <Cartman02au> And what are IDC's incidentally?: pins basically
[20:25] <EuropracBHIT> Oh, those.
[20:26] <EuropracBHIT> They release a lot of games, don't they?
[20:26] <EuropracBHIT> And Samba is more serious.
[20:26] <Martyman> Yeah, Tridge is here.
[20:26] <EuropracBHIT> I think you have to respect somebody who has an intelligent chess game. Who or what is Tridge?
[20:27] <Martyman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Tridgell
[20:28] <EuropracBHIT> And that's our server troubles fixed too.
[20:28] * Quits: bainer (Excess Flood�)
[20:28] * Joins: bainer
[20:28] <EuropracBHIT> What does everyone else think about the merits or otherwise of this proposal?
[20:29] <Cartman02au> I am going to get back to the question of chapter v. users group. What is the benefit of a user group over a chapter?
[20:29] <Cartman02au> which proposal?
[20:29] <Cartman02au> <--- serves me right for going googling lol
[20:29] <Martyman> Has anyone actually defined the difference? (usergroups/chapter)
[20:29] <EuropracBHIT> The proposal that we base ourselves at Australian National University. I know five of us voted that we be incorporated in Victoria.
[20:29] <Angela> The benefit might be less legal liability, and also less bureaucracy if there don't need to be set procedures for a board and meetings etc.
[20:30] <EuropracBHIT> Good. Somebody had to do it, as I would be in hot water if I had to.
[20:30] <Cartman02au> Euro: I would support it, Canberra being our capital
[20:30] <Cartman02au> Angela: What legal liability?
[20:30] <EuropracBHIT> (If there were set procedures, then we'd have less corruption ... )
[20:31] <Cartman02au> my concern :p
[20:31] * Quits: Croperz (Remote closed the
[20:31] <EuropracBHIT> And if Tridge or someone could be our patron, we'd have to get lots of publicity.
[20:31] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, both chapters and user groups have patrons.
[20:31] <Cartman02au> I fail to see the point of reinventing the wheel when the foundation already has the concept of chapters
[20:31] <Cartman02au> I know that :)
[20:32] <Cartman02au> The other way to look at user groups and chapters is where will the money come from?
[20:32] * Joins: bainer_
[20:32] <EuropracBHIT> If we could get the foundation to understand that user groups are better for Australian conditions because they have a track record here of grassroots involvement ...
[20:32] <Angela> Cartman02au: see the recent lawsuit with the german chapter.
[20:32] * Quits: bainer (Read error: 104
(Connection reset by peer)�)
[20:32] * Joins: Croperz
[20:32] * bainer_ is now known as bainer
[20:32] <EuropracBHIT> You'd want room to manouevre in a situation like that. We mustn't be so naive we imagine we're invincible.
[20:32] <Cartman02au> Angela: What I fail to understand is that we are not representing the foundation as such
[20:33] <Cartman02au> Angela: We promote the use of the foundation's materials. We have no control over them
[20:33] <EuropracBHIT> We are representing Australian interestes within that foundation.
[20:33] <Angela> Right, but if you own servers in Australia, you're liable for them.
[20:33] <Cartman02au> Euro: Legally not
[20:33] <Croperz> pardon my ignorance, but what are you guys talking about?
[20:33] <Cartman02au> Angela: Half the reason I do not want servers at this time. Second point is that argument can fail under Australian law
[20:34] <EuropracBHIT> How can this argument fail? We're responsible for the information on the servers. If somebody made a bomb then police can search.
[20:34] <Cartman02au> Angela: If we are mirroring what is published on the florida servers we are technically "data carriers" under our law
[20:34] <EuropracBHIT> Could someone back up for Cropers, please?
[20:34] <Cartman02au> Data carriers have protection. It would be like suing an ISP for what is cached on their squid server
[20:35] <EuropracBHIT> And that's sort of ... inviolable ... right?
[20:35] <Cartman02au> Croperz: We are discussing why we should be a chapter or user group
[20:35] * Quits: Croperz (Remote closed the connection�)
[20:35] <Martyman> Except the squid servers would be linked back to the main server not general purpose caching.
[20:36] <EuropracBHIT> And the difference in terms of law is ... ?
[20:36] <Cartman02au> Marty: We are still not the producers of the information
[20:36] <EuropracBHIT> What if it was traced back to an Australian ISP?
[20:36] <Cartman02au> Then it is the user's problem
[20:36] <Angela> and what about if it was a database server here, not just a cache server?
[20:36] * Joins: Croperz
[20:36] <EuropracBHIT> (Yes, we need a couple of those ... database servers).
[20:37] <Cartman02au> Angela: Web hosts cant be sued if they remove content when requested
[20:37] * Croperz hits xgl
[20:37] <Cartman02au> Angela: AFAIK, I had someone try to sue my webhost for what I published once, it failed
[20:37] <Cartman02au> Angela: The webhost has an obligation to remove it, which protects them as far as I am aware
[20:37] <EuropracBHIT> What were the circumstanc es in that case? Perhaps you could explain them briefly.
[20:37] <EuropracBHIT> (Was it when the people stole things?)
[20:38] <Cartman02au> Euro: I was running a consumer watch site, because I published something about a company they attempted to sue my host
[20:38] <EuropracBHIT> I see. That happens often. VERY litigious solution, hhmmm?
[20:38] <Cartman02au> Euro: Interestingly they couldnt sue for libel because it was true, evidenced by their own documents LOL
[20:38] <bainer> it's ok, me and enoch and ambi and all the other law students can defend us
[20:39] <EuropracBHIT> When you're actually lawyers.
[20:39] <EuropracBHIT> Thank you, law students.
[20:39] <Cartman02au> Law isnt my thing, but I have had enough dealings to have a little understanding
[20:39] <EuropracBHIT> Nor mine, and I think I have the same level of understanding as you do, Nathan.
[20:39] <Cartman02au> However, how technology relates to law is something I know a fair amount about :)
[20:39] <Cartman02au> Euro: Probably :)
[20:39] <EuropracBHIT> (without the dealings of course. Family members have had dealings with the ASIC since 1988).
[20:40] <bainer> well, there's no reason why we can't get some proper advice about all that and come back to it later
[20:40] <Cartman02au> thats true :)
[20:40] <bainer> things like working with universities and history groups don't involve all those legal issues
[20:40] <EuropracBHIT> Later? When will later be? What if there was a short- or medium- term threat?
[20:40] <EuropracBHIT> So you're saying that it's safer?
[20:41] <bainer> I can't foresee any legal issues in encouraging people to edit
[20:41] <EuropracBHIT> Good! Then it's just our overactive imaginations here.
[20:41] <Cartman02au> The only legal issues AFAIK are if we host the content
[20:41] <bainer> we can put off buying servers until we know what we're getting into
[20:41] <Cartman02au> If we are mirroring we are data carriers like any other ISP really
[20:42] <EuropracBHIT> Mirror first, then host when we do know what we're getting into.
[20:42] <Cartman02au> Is there a need for servers?
[20:42] <EuropracBHIT> Is that the most sensible way?
[20:42] <Angela> what would you be hosting exactly?
[20:42] <EuropracBHIT> Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wiktionary ... all Australian mirrors of the above ... plus our own website.
[20:43] <EuropracBHIT> Which reminds me ... who is going to put a pretty face to the website when it will be designed?
[20:43] <EuropracBHIT> Um, the same things as France or Germany would host.
[20:43] <Martyman> Are we anticipating getting enough donations to actuallybuy servers and bandwidth?
[20:43] <EuropracBHIT> In the long run, yes.
[20:43] <TimStarling> you can't host a mirror of a wiki, a mirror is periodically updated but a wiki is instantly updated.
[20:43] <Cartman02au> TimStarling: The concept is the same
[20:43] <EuropracBHIT> My mistake.
[20:44] <TimStarling> you can have a squid cache, but that doesn't require a database server.
[20:44] <Cartman02au> TimStarling: Both still have the same content, we are bludging off the main servers
[20:44] <EuropracBHIT> Wikis aren't always instantly updated. What if it was moderated? Then we'd have to wait. Hi Tim.
[20:44] <bainer> yes, listen to Tim, he knows all
[20:44] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, I have to admit on certain technical issues he's right.
[20:45] <Cartman02au> Do we really need to have local servers though?
[20:45] <TimStarling> all the database servers for a given wiki have to be within a few milliseconds of each other.
[20:45] <Cartman02au> I live in the country and they all seem fast for me
[20:45] <TimStarling> because they have to share caches.
[20:45] <Martyman> Well that rules out an australian branch of the main en wikipedia then.
[20:46] <EuropracBHIT> We could work it out somehow ...
[20:46] <Cartman02au> t: Our links to the US are not the greatest, I doubt database servers would be within a few msec of eachother
[20:46] <Angela> Martyman: what is an australian branch of en wikipedia?
[20:46] <Cartman02au> If that is something we wanted to do.
[20:46] <bainer> the German chapter hosts the toolserver, there's no reason why we can't do other non-content stuff like that
[20:46] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, Martyman, elaborate more.
[20:46] <EuropracBHIT> Bainer, good idea. And good point.
[20:46] <Cartman02au> I fail to see why we can't have domains like wikipedia.org.au that point to the Aussie portal on the main server
[20:47] <TimStarling> unfortunately it's impossible for a server in australia to be within a few ms of a server in the US, the speed of light gets in the way.
[20:47] <TimStarling> my science teacher tells me that's some sort of limit.
[20:47] <EuropracBHIT> (And the speed of sound, Tim?)
[20:47] <Martyman> If the databse servers need to be close to each otehr that limits us to running squids or tools servers etc.
[20:47] <Cartman02au> As I said, do we really need them?
[20:47] <Cartman02au> Are the sites that slow for us?
[20:48] <EuropracBHIT> Let's draw a map of whatever servers there are and we can have. Then we can work out the best way of distributing our potential.
[20:48] <EuropracBHIT> Yes. When they're down. And other times.
[20:48] <TimStarling> you can run a toolserver, like zedler.
[20:48] <Martyman> Yes we could have domains without any hardware in Australia.
[20:48] <EuropracBHIT> I want to get to the Wikipedia site like that.
[20:48] * EuropracBHIT clicks fingers.
[20:48] <TimStarling> that's a replicated server that could be out of date, lag doesn't matter.
[20:48] <Cartman02au> I want to get into wikinews like that LOL
[20:48] <TimStarling> but you can't serve the main website from it.
[20:48] <EuropracBHIT> :-D
[20:48] <EuropracBHIT> I think we all want to get in fast.
[20:49] <Cartman02au> I meant get to en.wikinews .org/wiki/Australia through wikinews.org.au
[20:49] <Cartman02au> Speed isnt an issue for me strangely
[20:49] <Angela> I don't think moving the servers closer will help that. I've been 20 miles from the colo and it was just as slow.
[20:49] <EuropracBHIT> Much easier to remember!
[20:49] <bainer> Tim, Australia represents about 3% of traffic, isn't that right?
[20:49] <Angela> 2%
[20:49] <Martyman> I think the issue is that wikipedia is always needing more hardware, and if our donations can't go overseas teh only way we could help out is to have hardware here.. But is it useful?
[20:50] <bainer> a decent slice of that would be anonymous, so squids would help there
[20:50] <EuropracBHIT> It's useful so we can have our own computers to edit and use the content. Yes, help out the anons, don't discourage them.
[20:50] <TimStarling> our donations can go overseas, we just have to pay 30% or so in tax.
[20:50] <TimStarling> diddums.
[20:50] <EuropracBHIT> I'm trying to think. So not the top marginal rate?
[20:51] <Cartman02au> Companies pay 30% regardless
[20:51] <EuropracBHIT> So like 3/10s of $50 or $100?
[20:51] <EuropracBHIT> (I realise that!)
[20:51] <Cartman02au> unless they are income tax exempt
[20:51] <bainer> that's something that will need more research
[20:52] <EuropracBHIT> Here we are going around in circles again. How do we get exempt? It's sort of like a Catch 22 here.
[20:52] <bainer> there's a few things to organise with the ATO
[20:52] <Cartman02au> Income tax exemption is easy, so long as you are an organisation within the guidelines
[20:52] <EuropracBHIT> We all know what happens if you google too long, you get googly eyes.
[20:52] <EuropracBHIT> So how and when and what forms?
[20:52] <Cartman02au> Basically, you have to fit into one of the non-profit categories
[20:52] <Cartman02au> DGR is hard :(
[20:52] <bainer> http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit /
[20:53] <EuropracBHIT> Yes. List the things out in dot points.
[20:53] <bainer> DGR is hard, but having the chapter exempt from paying tax itself is easier
[20:53] <EuropracBHIT> (I know I saw the things a month ago ... but I can't remember. It didn't stick.)
[20:54] <Cartman02au> Yep tax exemption is fairly easy
[20:54] <bainer> most organisations can self-assess themselves as income tax exempt: http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit/content.asp?do c=/content/8555.htm&page=3&pc=&mnu=28532&mfp=0 01/004&st=&cy=#P24_1669
[20:54] <EuropracBHIT> Perhaps we're not asking the right questions. Good.
[20:54] <EuropracBHIT> "Know thyself," right?
[20:55] <Martyman> Why the hell do these things change state to state?
[20:55] <Cartman02au> taxation doesnt
[20:55] <EuropracBHIT> Like the narrow gauges and broad gauges ... Nathan, that's reassuring.
[20:56] <Cartman02au> I dont follow
[20:56] <EuropracBHIT> Sorry I confused you, then. Martyman was pointing out how things are different stateside.
[20:56] <Cartman02au> I thought he meant from state to state within Australia
[20:56] <EuropracBHIT> And I was trying to say that it was because of Federation. These probs go back a LONG way.
[20:57] <EuropracBHIT> (me too!)
[20:57] <Martyman> In australia..
[20:57] <Cartman02au> Partly because our constitution is a little bit weird
[20:57] <Cartman02au> Technically, the federal government cant legislate over corporations entirely
[20:57] <EuropracBHIT> You don't expect me to read that with an empty stomach!
[20:58] <EuropracBHIT> But in real life, they sometimes do? Because of Alan Bond and Christopher Skase?
[20:58] <Cartman02au> It's iffy
[20:58] <Cartman02au> Basically ASIC registers companies on behalf of the states
[20:58] <Cartman02au> They *should* all have uniform laws which mirror the federal Corporations Act
[20:58] <TimStarling> if wikimedia australia wants DGR status, then it can't send money to the US to buy servers. Individuals will still be able to donate to the florida foundation directly, and such donations will not be tax deductible.
[20:59] <TimStarling> when I said an extra 30% in tax or so, I was referring to those individual donations.
[20:59] <Cartman02au> ??
[20:59] <EuropracBHIT> That sounds reasonable. For the Americans to buy servers or for us?
[20:59] <TimStarling> 30% being a ballpark figure.
[21:00] <Cartman02au> How do you get 30% for individual donations
[21:00] <EuropracBHIT> PayPal does ask about that much.
[21:00] <bainer> tax on companies is 30%
[21:00] <Cartman02au> Companies pay 30% tax. If the organisation cant get ITE then we would pay 30% of the total organisation's "profit"
[21:00] <Cartman02au> not on individual donations, but on whatever is left after we pay our expenses
[21:00] <TimStarling> of course the organisation can get ITE, we've been over that.
[21:01] <EuropracBHIT> We are not going to make any profit. If anything, we'll run at a big loss and then be indebt.
[21:01] <bainer> anyway, perhaps we should put the question of servers and money aside for the minute... what are some things we're sure that we can do?
[21:01] <Cartman02au> [20:59] <TimStarling> when I said an extra 30% in tax or so, I was referring to those individual donations. <- Either we pay income tax or we dont
[21:02] <EuropracBHIT> Spread Wikimedia to our families and friends.
[21:02] <EuropracBHIT> Have meetups ... we've organised two.
[21:02] <EuropracBHIT> Those are two things we can do.
[21:02] <Martyman> A central contact point for media enquiries?
[21:02] <Cartman02au> yep :)
[21:02] <EuropracBHIT> We can help people use Wikimedia projects.
[21:02] <TimStarling> the figure doesn't matter, I'm just saying that for some people, it may be better to make a non-deductible gift to an overseas foundation where the money will be used for something, than to make a deductible gift to a local DGR which will buy expensive database servers which will inevitably be mostly idle.
[21:03] <bainer> promote wikis in schools and universities
[21:03] <EuropracBHIT> If they are mostly idle ....
[21:03] <Cartman02au> that makes sense, the issue of paying 30% tax on individual donations does not
[21:03] <TimStarling> That's why I prefer the idea of a user group, because the contribution a local DGR can make to wikimedia's wider mission is small.
[21:03] <Cartman02au> There is no reason why we can not encourage donations to the foundation directly
[21:03] <EuropracBHIT> Now you're talking in my ballpark ... and TAFEs as well. They know about blogs, but not much about wikis.
[21:04] * Joins: aussiechris
[21:04] <EuropracBHIT> Hi Aussie Chris.
[21:04] <aussiechris> gday
[21:04] <EuropracBHIT> Hi, it doesn't seem you have a user page or a talk page.
[21:04] <EuropracBHIT> (Do you live in Frankston? How's it up there?)
[21:05] <Cartman02au> Getting back to the $$$ issue (as it is important). I cant see why we couldnt get a commissioners ruling on sending money overseas
[21:05] <aussiechris> frankston... dont get me started
[21:05] <EuropracBHIT> Nathan; do you mean what I think you mean?
[21:05] <Cartman02au> The pursuit of objectives in Australia can include things done offshore if they are only a means of pursuing those objectives. For example, sending employees to an offshore conference to aid their efficiency for the Australian objectives will be pursuing objectives in Australia.
[21:05] <Cartman02au> http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit/content.asp?doc=/content/34269.htm&page=1#P775_56519
[21:05] <EuropracBHIT> No, I like Frankston. And my Uncle lived there for a time. And I like McClelland Sculpture Park.
[21:05] <Cartman02au> Sending money to the foundation assists us by the foundation actually being able to keep their servers
[21:06] <EuropracBHIT> So it's in our self-interest?
[21:06] <Cartman02au> If taxation law is iffy in anyway we can apply to the commissoner for a ruling :)
[21:06] <Cartman02au> yes
[21:06] <EuropracBHIT> More so than having our own servers? Like a royal commission?
[21:06] <Cartman02au> That is the argument we could use
[21:06] <EuropracBHIT> (I know someone will tell me not to be so dramatic!)
[21:06] <Cartman02au> No the commissioner is the head of the ATO
[21:06] <EuropracBHIT> Good. And the head of the ATO ... I don't know them from Adam.
[21:06] <TimStarling> Cartman02au: well, that's one way of looking at it, we can only hope that the commissioner sees it the same way.
[21:07] <Cartman02au> It can be argued
[21:07] <EuropracBHIT> How has the commissioner, on history, seen things like this? Or are we completely unique in all the world?
[21:07] <Cartman02au> The ATO is quite fair in these matters
[21:07] <EuropracBHIT> Good. And I don't see why they should be unfair.
[21:07] <EuropracBHIT> (Except I do believe in small goveernment on such issues).
[21:07] <Cartman02au> I doubt we are unique in this regard. There are charities that send money to the US (a developed nation)
[21:07] <EuropracBHIT> (I mean, some issues).
[21:08] <EuropracBHIT> Such as? Name some?
[21:08] <Cartman02au> If we are unsure of something to do with tax and the taxation law is iffy then we apply for a ruling
[21:08] <EuropracBHIT> All right. Let's cross THAT bridge when we come to it.
[21:08] <Cartman02au> Hurricane relief funds. They sent money to the US, I am sure the Red Cross and the like are ITE/DGRs
[21:09] <EuropracBHIT> Good to have a precedent ... what about normal, everyday business?
[21:09] <EuropracBHIT> Ayn Rand and the ethics of emergencies come to mind here.
[21:09] <bainer> ok, this is all hypothetical stuff, does anyone mind if we just put it in the "when we come to that bridge" box and move on?
[21:09] * Joins: TimStarling
[21:09] <Cartman02au> I am sure it could be done. The fact of the matter is it is up to *us* to prove that it benefits our cause in Australia, and I am sure that we can argue that succesfully
[21:10] <Cartman02au> Having said that, I would suggest we apply for a ruling before we send any money to the US :)
[21:11] <Cartman02au> which I can not see happening in the immediate future
[21:11] <EuropracBHIT> Oh good, Tim, you're here!
[21:11] <EuropracBHIT> I mean, as you. It was weird Angela being your sock puppet.
[21:12] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, I'm sure we could prove our case if we had to.
[21:12] <aussiechris> it does seem like something that's a bit off down the track that we will need to sort out when we get there, not worry about now. i agree with moving on for now.
[21:12] <TimStarling> yes, my DNS is down so I just typed in the IP address of the IRC server
[21:12] <EuropracBHIT> That must be a blow when that happens ... I suppose you deal with that every day.
[21:13] <Cartman02au> chris: I like to look at things well in advance LOL. It is something we need to figure if we are to become a "user group" or a chapter
[21:13] <EuropracBHIT> I'm sure that most of us who like small government will just want to skip to the user group piece anyway.
[21:13] <EuropracBHIT> Good for you Nathan.
[21:13] <bainer> perhaps if we get back to our list of things we can definitely do, questions of tax and money aside
[21:13] <aussiechris> that's fair enough. it doesn't hurt to look at things in advance
[21:13] <EuropracBHIT> I know you have experience in these matters, and I trust whatever you decide.
[21:14] <EuropracBHIT> By the way, I put up an announcement for the Melbourne wikipedians to maybe have a meeting, on the WikiProject page on which I've been involved since Day One.
[21:14] <Cartman02au> I just have concerns that a user group would not be eligible for ITE/DGR and would become outgrown
[21:14] <Cartman02au> again it comes back to the almighty $ :(
[21:14] <EuropracBHIT> There are some really BIG user groups out there in terms of numbers.
[21:15] <EuropracBHIT> Like lots of them have THOUSANDS of members.
[21:15] <Cartman02au> that is true
[21:15] <Cartman02au> But do they operate for the benefit of their members or do they unite in a common cause?
[21:15] <Cartman02au> (I mean primarily)
[21:16] <EuropracBHIT> Both. Depends on what's needed. I think they mainly operate for the benefit of their members, but they're open to the general publc.
[21:16] <EuropracBHIT> And depends on what you mean by common cause?
[21:16] <Cartman02au> in our case - to further the use of wikimedia projects and free content
[21:16] <EuropracBHIT> So we can't splinter off into different things or be exclusive.
[21:17] <EuropracBHIT> So focus on what we do to further the use of projects and free content.
[21:17] <Cartman02au> We can
[21:17] <EuropracBHIT> A user group might charge money for something ... like an event ...
[21:17] <Cartman02au> no, we can do what we like, but we need to look at whether or not we are furthing our cause/objects or if we are operating to benefit outselves
[21:17] <Cartman02au> What would be the primary goal of that event?
[21:18] * Cartman02au is a pain in the a$$ I know
[21:18] <EuropracBHIT> I'm trying to think of something like Wikimania. No, you keep us on our toes and that's good.
[21:18] <EuropracBHIT> Like a Hacking Day to be more specific.
[21:18] <Cartman02au> Wikimania primarily promotes the work of it's users. It has a more sinister motive than a "social gathering"
[21:19] <aussiechris> do any of the other local wikimedia groups run in a similar user group style arangement? if so, can aus model itself off them?
[21:19] <EuropracBHIT> And it promotes other people too and other causes!
[21:19] <aussiechris> once there is a model up, then all the legal problems can be worked out
[21:19] <Cartman02au> chris: exactly correct
[21:20] <EuropracBHIT> Thank you. For restoring some sanity into this discussion. I know we all agree on the same thing.
[21:20] <EuropracBHIT> It's just that we have all different ideas ... sorry for creating conflict where there isn't.
[21:20] <Cartman02au> chris: the foundation has chapters, which morally represent the foundation
[21:20] <EuropracBHIT> And thank you for opening up my eyes.
[21:20] <aussiechris> and aus would be similar to that?
[21:21] <EuropracBHIT> That would be the general idea, yes.
[21:21] <Cartman02au> chris: basically chapters share the same goals as the foundation and push them in their region
[21:21] <aussiechris> (*sorry for my ignorance, but im pretty new to wiki)
[21:21] <EuropracBHIT> Nathan's pretty new to the Wiki as well.
[21:21] <Cartman02au> I am fairly new to wiki also, but have had to learn quickly LOL
[21:21] <EuropracBHIT> Haven't we all!
[21:22] <EuropracBHIT> And if Wikimedia Australia can centralise that learning all in one place, then it's to the good.
[21:22] <Cartman02au> I have had to learn about the foundation as a whole very quickly
[21:22] <Cartman02au> Exactly :)
[21:22] <EuropracBHIT> And then you've been bold about things like the chapters committee.
[21:22] <Cartman02au> The reason I want to see an "Australian Chapter" is that the projects are udner used in Australia. If we can somehow change that then we are successful
[21:22] <Cartman02au> I think the chapter's committee has been bold by inviting me LOL
[21:23] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, we don't see their potential nearly enough. Aussies are early adopters in most technologies.
[21:23] <EuropracBHIT> We always have been.
[21:23] <Cartman02au> We aren't with wikis though :(
[21:23] * Quits: Natterer ("ChatZilla 0.9.64 [Mozilla
[21:23] <EuropracBHIT> And I'd like to know why not?
[21:23] <Cartman02au> My interest with wikis started with my personal website :)
[21:23] <EuropracBHIT> I was very shy about entering the wiki for a few months, I admit that. I was scared that I might break something, which is very unlike me. I'm not that timid.
[21:24] <aussiechris> so, legal issues aside, the main problem with an aus chapter is awareness an marketing type stuff.
[21:24] <EuropracBHIT> Can we see your website?
[21:24] <Cartman02au> no problems, it will bore you all http://magna.trynsave.net
[21:24] <EuropracBHIT> Then we get advice from some marketing-type person who will charge us through the rear end.
[21:24] <Martyman> What stats back up us not being taking advantage of wikis compared to other countries?
[21:24] <EuropracBHIT> The stats that T gave us. When I see the Polish wiki I am so ashamed.
[21:24] <EuropracBHIT> And envious.
[21:25] <Cartman02au> Marty: the fact that 2% of Wikimedia traffic is from Australia
[21:25] <EuropracBHIT> And that there are only 300 users overall out of 20 million.
[21:25] <EuropracBHIT> (This is logged in, of course).
[21:25] <Cartman02au> My problem with getting started was that I was worried that I would have nothing to contribute
[21:26] <aussiechris> so this includes wikipedia, news, quotes and everything combined.
[21:26] <EuropracBHIT> I still have that worry periodically. In fact I let my inadequacy get in front of me sometimes. It's a feminine thing.
[21:26] <EuropracBHIT> But Angela's a strong role model.
[21:26] <Martyman> My girlfriend was just saying she has started hearing people at her work (dept. of defence) talking about wikipedia recently
[21:26] <EuropracBHIT> Excellent. Go your girlfriend and her friends. How could we help the DoD take advantage of the Wiki?
[21:26] <Cartman02au> I was surprised that a job I picked up last week uses Wiktionary
[21:27] <Martyman> no idea
[21:27] <EuropracBHIT> And another good example/case study. I know. We can have lots of case studies on our website. Like a "Help us help you" campaign.
[21:27] <Cartman02au> Wikis in general are damn useful
[21:27] <EuropracBHIT> I don't have any good stories to tell. But I have talked to someone who works for the Vice Chancellor of Melbourne Uni and he was pretty impressed.
[21:27] <Cartman02au> I could not imagine running my site without one now
[21:28] <EuropracBHIT> Here's someone who could help us: http://www.vic.greens.org.au/content/Members/MikeFlattley
[21:28] <Cartman02au> I got a good laugh when the deputy principal at the school told me they use wiktionary despite it being against department policy
[21:29] <EuropracBHIT> Isn't that a general problem with wiki-as-resource?
[21:29] <Martyman> I don't like this schools against wikis stuff. That needs to be changed.
[21:29] <Cartman02au> yes. The NSW Department of Education has a problem with it being able to edited by anyone
[21:29] <aussiechris> why is it against department policy?
[21:29] <EuropracBHIT> What about kids talking about how wikis help them with their learning?
[21:29] <bainer> schools would really benefit from having internal wikis
[21:29] <EuropracBHIT> I don't know the feeling for or against in Victoria.
[21:30] <Cartman02au> At least there is one school who uses it :)
[21:30] <aussiechris> is there a bit of a bad rap out there?
[21:30] <bainer> just for students and/or staff
[21:30] <Cartman02au> bainer: how so?
[21:30] <EuropracBHIT> But, yes, I have read of the situation in New South, and yes, I'm livid.
[21:30] <Cartman02au> bainer: I'd love to hear this as I am a 2 hr/week IT guy for a school now
[21:30] <EuropracBHIT> So many complain about it on blogs.
[21:31] <Cartman02au> I feel that it is unfair
[21:31] <bainer> Cartman02au: class projects, for a start
[21:31] <Cartman02au> The information is largely accurate and is FREE
[21:31] <EuropracBHIT> I'll try and find the link ... They already do this in Canada and the US, and why not here?
[21:31] <EuropracBHIT> http://studyingsocietiesatjhk.pbwiki.com/
[21:32] <EuropracBHIT> And what about podcasting and spoken articles?
[21:32] <EuropracBHIT> That's a new one we haven't latched onto yet.
[21:32] <Cartman02au> Euro: Loss of control perhaps? It is easier to control what people see and learn by specifying books rather than on a wiki
[21:32] <EuropracBHIT> All too true. But you can't even control what people see in books!
[21:32] <EuropracBHIT> Or what they take from that book. At least with wiki it's all written down, and controlled that way.
[21:32] <Cartman02au> When they are specified by the cirriculm yes you can!
[21:33] <EuropracBHIT> :-D
[21:33] <Cartman02au> I see universities using wiki before schools
[21:33] <aussiechris> im in the middle of starting a weekly summary for wikinews.
[21:33] <EuropracBHIT> I just don't think the curriculum should be the be-all and end-all of everything.
[21:33] <Cartman02au> Universities love different methods
[21:33] <EuropracBHIT> That's really useful.
[21:33] <Cartman02au> Neither do I but it is. That is part of what makes school SUCK
[21:33] <aussiechris> when articles becomr more frequent, then we will try to ramp up to day-by-day podcasting
[21:33] <EuropracBHIT> And the wiki is so central to constructivist learning. Donnolly will hate me for this.
[21:34] <Cartman02au> TAFE and Uni is so much more open minded. You are taught how to think not what to think
[21:34] <aussiechris> if thats what you mean europrac
[21:34] <EuropracBHIT> How do we make sure people don't get distracted from the projects?
[21:34] <EuropracBHIT> Your question, Chris, brought up a terrific point.
[21:34] <EuropracBHIT> (I do struggle with that sometimes!)
[21:35] <EuropracBHIT> (being told how to think vs what to think ...) (I guess I'm not the independent learner I'd like to be ... )
[21:35] <Cartman02au> I dont think we can make sure people dont get distracted
[21:35] <EuropracBHIT> I'm looking for a better way to word it. That was a concern mentioned at the Sydney meetup.
[21:35] <bainer> volunteers are allowed to get distracted
[21:35] <aussiechris> if its a rewarding experience, people will be more likely to come back and help
[21:35] <Cartman02au> I left school early enough to bypass the what to think LOL. I really screwed the system over
[21:36] <EuropracBHIT> Or something like it, anyway. Good for you. Not all of us did.
[21:36] <aussiechris> if they come back and want to come back, they will probably be less likely to get distracted
[21:36] * Parts: Commander_Keane
[21:36] <EuropracBHIT> That is so true.
[21:36] <EuropracBHIT> People have lives.
[21:36] <Cartman02au> some people lol
[21:36] <EuropracBHIT> And wiki can be part of their life, but it can't be their whole life. Which is why this userbox thing is so silly.
[21:37] <EuropracBHIT> I love userboxes, you've seen my page, but the whole POV thing ... I really do not see.
[21:37] <bainer> ok now we're getting off-topic ;)
[21:37] <Cartman02au> Here is my wiki n00bness coming out - what is a userbox?
[21:37] <EuropracBHIT> It's a thing you put up to show your education or your favourite car.
[21:37] <bainer> Cartman02au: those silly little rectangular things you see on userpages
[21:38] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, they have userboxes for cars.
[21:38] <Cartman02au> for Magnas?
[21:38] <Cartman02au> LOL
[21:38] <EuropracBHIT> They show things which are important to people. Maybe you could make one,.
[21:38] <bainer> WP:UBX
[21:38] <Cartman02au> The "I speak English, I support the miltary"?
[21:38] <EuropracBHIT> Thank you for that link.
[21:38] <EuropracBHIT> YES!
[21:39] <Cartman02au> I have a opinion page on WN for that
[21:39] <bainer> so getting back on topic, that point about universities and wikis is good
[21:39] <EuropracBHIT> But some people can't or don't want to write. I'd like to read your opinion page.
[21:39] <EuropracBHIT> I agree.
[21:39] <EuropracBHIT> Universities like ANU and Monash can help.
[21:40] <bainer> it's a great way for lecturers to collaborate on preparing class materials
[21:40] <EuropracBHIT> I can see in my own course ... we could have a writers' workshop and it would be so much easier than the Content Management we have now.
[21:40] <Martyman> I see Tim is at melbourne. Is there any interest there?
[21:41] <EuropracBHIT> You have only to see Student web to see what it's like ... http://studentweb.bhtafe.edu.au/
[21:41] <Cartman02au> My old university could use wikis instead of forums
[21:41] <EuropracBHIT> (No, not literally.)
[21:41] <Cartman02au> CSU was massive on having forums for every subject where things could get thrashed out and tips were put up by lecturers
[21:41] <aussiechris> so should this be a point taken to university staff and student unions and organisations?
[21:41] <Martyman> The trouble being that universities like the ANU have paid big big dollars for their fancy content management systems.
[21:41] <EuropracBHIT> And then the Physics department could use them so differently. But they could save, and CMS might crash ...
[21:41] <bainer> when we show them Mediawiki for free, they'll love it
[21:42] <EuropracBHIT> They will!
[21:42] <Cartman02au> Even if they only used it for course information
[21:42] <Martyman> They have already paid though and have to justify their purchase by sticking by it.
[21:42] <aussiechris> if wo were to approach the universities about it, who would be the best person/department to aim for?
[21:42] <Cartman02au> They could link to a brief page on each subject used in a course
[21:43] <bainer> Martyman: we hit them when they come to renew contracts or upgrade
[21:43] <Cartman02au> chris: Not sure, either IT department or the VC
[21:43] <EuropracBHIT> So the killer app approach.
[21:43] * Cartman02au misses university LOL
[21:44] <Cartman02au> More like the reduced TCO approach
[21:44] * EuropracBHIT never went there in the first place, except for a stint at the Melbourne School of Continental Philosophy.
[21:44] <Cartman02au> TCO = Total Cost of Ownership
[21:44] <aussiechris> does anybody here have ties with any of those departments already? even if they have systems they want to stick by, im sure the people actualy using them would be far more willing to try something new anyway.
[21:44] <Martyman> I can't see wikis as a tool making big headways within the ANU. The content that is offered by the wikipedia ont eh other hand is a better drawcard.
[21:45] <Cartman02au> Good point
[21:45] <EuropracBHIT> And improving that content.
[21:45] <Cartman02au> But wikis could be well used by others
[21:45] <EuropracBHIT> First the content, then the tool at ANU?
[21:45] <Cartman02au> If we encourage academics to use wikipedia, they are likely to contribute as well
[21:45] <EuropracBHIT> Other places could be the same.
[21:45] <EuropracBHIT> That was like the old Nupedia and we all know how that worked.
[21:46] <EuropracBHIT> (But not PhDs only ... )
[21:46] <EuropracBHIT> (And what about No Original Research ?)
[21:46] <bainer> especially if experienced users like us help them out
[21:46] <Cartman02au> That is something I think WMA could do and do well
[21:46] <Cartman02au> That is something I'd love to see us do with U3A even. Senior citizens using wiki would be awesome
[21:47] <EuropracBHIT> Well I guess we can learn from past failures.
[21:47] <aussiechris> are we more aimed at getting the wiki software out there, or at getting more support and interest for the current projects (wikipedia, wikinews, wiktionary etc)
[21:47] <bainer> both
[21:47] <Martyman> The trouble being the wikipedia is an encyclopedia and is never going to go into the detail needed by an academic.
[21:47] <EuropracBHIT> I agree ... getting more support for the current projects first and then more wiki software.
[21:47] <Cartman02au> My idea is projects 1st, then software
[21:47] <Martyman> Schools and U3A are more likely to make better use of the content.
[21:47] <bainer> whatever we can do is good
[21:48] <Cartman02au> Marty: Probably true, but wikibooks could be used by an academic
[21:48] <Cartman02au> Marty: Academics may use WP for backgrounding though
[21:48] <aussiechris> then can we come back to uni's after we get the aus chapter up and running. set it as a longer term goal.
[21:48] <EuropracBHIT> What about the Wikiversity? Is there a future for it here in Australia? I mean, especially for Distance Education?
[21:49] <Martyman> I installed a wiki for the ARC complex systems research network (because they asked for one). Put they couldn't decide what they wanted to use it for.
[21:49] <EuropracBHIT> I'm surprised more Australians don't do it. Could you give them ideas, like the ideas here, maybe?
[21:49] <EuropracBHIT> The old how to think vs what to think dilemna.
[21:49] <Cartman02au> With the wikiversity I do not know if it would be accepted in Australia
[21:50] <Martyman> Is the wikiversity going to be accepted anywhwere?
[21:50] <EuropracBHIT> I can see why. It'd be considered a diploma mill. What about Stott's? What about Taylors? It's basically the same thing.
[21:50] <Cartman02au> People seem to like to get a piece of paper showing what they can do from a recognised institution
[21:50] <EuropracBHIT> Or to demonstrate it.
[21:51] <EuropracBHIT> Maybe we could target the next generation before they think they need to get a piece of paper.
[21:51] <EuropracBHIT> The paperless university ... good for the planet.
[21:51] <EuropracBHIT> The parchment is a symbol, though.
[21:51] <Cartman02au> Could I have used what I learned at Wikiversity to get into university in the same way as my TAFE certs did?
[21:51] <EuropracBHIT> An ancient symbol. How can we compete? I don't know. That's a hypothetical.
[21:51] <EuropracBHIT> They were credits. Wikiversity offers credits (I think).
[21:52] <Cartman02au> Are they recognised in Australia?
[21:52] <bainer> I think Wikiversity is something else we can put aside until later
[21:52] <Cartman02au> We cant even recognise all TAFE certs nationally yet
[21:52] <EuropracBHIT> Not as far as I know but we could work towards that.
[21:52] <EuropracBHIT> Oh dear.
[21:52] <Cartman02au> I think Wikiversity needs to sort itself out as well :)
[21:52] <EuropracBHIT> Mine will only be a state one.
[21:52] <EuropracBHIT> Don't want to be associated with an albatross.
[21:52] <Cartman02au> Unless it is under the AQF it isnt national :(
[21:52] <EuropracBHIT> (Diploma of Arts, Profesional Writing and Editing, for newbies).
[21:53] <EuropracBHIT> (Is it?)
[21:53] * Quits: bainer (Read error: 104 (Connection reset
[21:53] <Cartman02au> I dont know
[21:53] * Joins: bainer_
[21:53] * bainer_ is now known as bainer
[21:53] <EuropracBHIT> There's an opportunity in the free computer training. I say tackle them on O-Week.
[21:54] <EuropracBHIT> My course: http://www.bhtafe.edu.au/Courses/VTM92.htm
[21:55] <Cartman02au> Doesnt seem to mention interstate recognition
[21:55] <EuropracBHIT> No, it doesn't. But I wasn't thinking of working interstate...
[21:55] <EuropracBHIT> Getting my writerly training on the job, as it were, through memberships of various organisations, wait for it, the Victorian Writers' Centre.
[21:56] <Cartman02au> cool
[21:57] <EuropracBHIT> This meeting seems to have gone on for a long time.
[21:57] <Cartman02au> it does
[21:57] <Cartman02au> and seems to be dying slowly
[21:57] <EuropracBHIT> Chop chop!
[21:58] <EuropracBHIT> We did say 90 minutes, but the afternoon one went to two hours.
[21:58] <Martyman> it has been 2 hours
[21:58] <aussiechris> what point on teh agenda are we up to? 2?
[21:58] <bainer> well, I'm in the channel most days, we can have discussion at other times
[21:58] <EuropracBHIT> And make an arrangement for the next one. I think we've discussed just about everything that's ehre.
[21:59] <EuropracBHIT> What would work for everybody?
[21:59] <Martyman> Yep
[21:59] <EuropracBHIT> I only come to channels when I'm called?
[21:59] <aussiechris> i don't know. got here late. everything as sort of been going from tangent to tangent. everyone is chatty tonight :D
[21:59] <Cartman02au> What needs to be done before we meet next?
[21:59] <EuropracBHIT> Yourself included.
[22:00] <EuropracBHIT> Talk to the University of the Third Age.
[22:00] <EuropracBHIT> Write them a letter.
[22:00] <EuropracBHIT> Talk to the Tax Office.
[22:00] <aussiechris> yes. i know. i have to stop being chatty too :(
[22:00] <EuropracBHIT> Anything more? Universities?
[22:00] <EuropracBHIT> Work on the constitution?
[22:00] <bainer> I'm gonna work up that list of "things we can definitely do" above, and work out what sort of resources we'd need to make them happen
[22:01] <EuropracBHIT> Thank you bainer.
[22:01] <aussiechris> i did go to rmit, a year ago. dont realy know anyone there anymore, but i'd be willing to chase them up about wiki's if nobody else is
[22:01] <Cartman02au> I am not 100% sure we need to talk to the tax office right now. That seems to be an issue for when we send donations to the foundation
[22:01] <aussiechris> we need to have money first
[22:01] <EuropracBHIT> And I could speak to Michael Burville, the SARC officer for the magazine.
[22:02] <bainer> that's why we should start with what we can definitely do, then we can work from there
[22:02] <Cartman02au> I am pretty sure we will get told to apply for a ruling, and to do that we need an organisation
[22:02] <Cartman02au> Exactly
[22:02] <Cartman02au> I think we need to get a rough structure in place
[22:02] <EuropracBHIT> Something that can be drawn on an orgianogram.
[22:03] <Cartman02au> Pretty much
[22:03] <bainer> something we can upload to meta
[22:03] <Cartman02au> Basically what does WMA want to look like. How will we function, what will we do, etc
[22:03] <Cartman02au> At the moment we are kind of in limbo
[22:03] <EuropracBHIT> That's better than purgatory!
[22:03] <bainer> we werre talking about office bearers in the arvo session
[22:03] <EuropracBHIT> But in a sort of perfunctionery way.
[22:03] <Cartman02au> I saw that 8 was an idea
[22:04] <bainer> the other chapters have pres, secretary, treasurer, press and member jobs
[22:04] <Cartman02au> There are 2 problems with 8 - 1) too large IMO 2) it's even
[22:04] <EuropracBHIT> What about deciding who takes those. I nominate Nathan Carter for president.
[22:04] * Quits: Angela
[22:04] <Cartman02au> I dont know about deciding who takes offices right now ;)
[22:04] <EuropracBHIT> Angela, come back! Who does the logs without you?
[22:04] <Cartman02au> I shall do them :)
[22:05] <EuropracBHIT> But in that type of way?
[22:05] <bainer> I've had my connection reset too many times to do them :)
[22:05] <Cartman02au> Probably not LOL
[22:05] <EuropracBHIT> In another way?
[22:05] <EuropracBHIT> But I do mean nominations and seconds and like the request for admin.
[22:05] <EuropracBHIT> That Rogerthat one has the potential to get nasty if it hasn't already.
[22:06] <Cartman02au> Rogerthat?
[22:06] <Martyman> Mine finishes in teh morning.
[22:06] <bainer> better vote then
[22:06] <bainer> all power to the Australian cabal!
[22:06] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, we should. (Though I make a policy, more or less, not).
[22:07] <EuropracBHIT> Well, theRealAntonious is being kind of ... spirited ... in his support and nom for Rogerthat.
[22:07] <Cartman02au> I think offices should be determined in that way yes LOL
[22:07] <Martyman> I think a lot of useful stuff can be done based on these meetings on meta and through discussions on board
[22:08] <Martyman> If someone can write a more detailed proposal it will at least be something people can pick holes in
[22:08] <EuropracBHIT> I'll do my best.
[22:08] <aussiechris> little more organised than what if's
[22:08] <Cartman02au> I think thats the best way to do it
[22:08] <Cartman02au> Get the plan done
[22:08] <EuropracBHIT> It will be a lot ... have a go.
[22:09] <EuropracBHIT> Now, some of us have to go to bed.
[22:09] <Martyman> Yeah, got to go to work in the morning.
[22:09] <EuropracBHIT> And I've been writhing about like a mad thing.
[22:10] <EuropracBHIT> These 31-degree days!
[22:10] * Parts: EuropracBHIT
[22:11] <Martyman> I'm off too.
[22:11] <aussiechris> night
[22:11] <bainer> bye then
[22:11] * Parts: Martyman
[22:11] <Cartman02au> bye all
[22:11] <aussiechris> cheers everyone