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This is an archived version of this page, as edited by A. B. (talk | contribs) at 20:46, 30 October 2008 (→‎davidbenariel.org: added). It may differ significantly from the current version.

Latest comment: 15 years ago by A. B. in topic Proposed additions
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WM:SPAM
The associated page is used by the MediaWiki Spam Blacklist extension, and lists strings of text that may not be used in URLs in any page in Wikimedia Foundation projects (as well as many external wikis). Any meta administrator can edit the spam blacklist. There is also a more aggressive way to block spamming through direct use of $wgSpamRegex. Only developers can make changes to $wgSpamRegex, and its use is to be avoided whenever possible.

For more information on what the spam blacklist is for, and the processes used here, please see Spam blacklist/About.

Proposed additions
Please provide evidence of spamming on several wikis. Spam that only affects single project should go to that project's local blacklist. Exceptions include malicious domains and URL redirector/shortener services. Please follow this format.
Also, please check back after submitting your report, there could be questions regarding your request.
Proposed removals
Typically, we do not remove domains from the spam blacklist in response to site-owners' requests. Instead, we de-blacklist sites when trusted, high-volume editors request the use of blacklisted links because of their value in support of our projects. Please consider whether requesting whitelisting on a specific wiki for a specific use is more appropriate.

Please sign your posts with ~~~~ after your comment. This leaves a signature and timestamp so conversations are easier to follow.

Completed requests are marked as {{added}} or {{declined}}, and are generally archived (search) quickly. Additions and removals are logged.

Other discussion
Troubleshooting and problems - If there is an error in the blacklist (i.e. a regex error) which is causing problems, please raise the issue here.
Discussion - Meta-discussion concerning the operation of the blacklist and related pages, and communication among the spam blacklist team.

snippet for logging: {{sbl-log|1250367#{{subst:anchorencode:SectionNameHere}}}}

Proposed additions

This section is for proposing that a website be blacklisted; add new entries at the bottom of the section, using the basic URL so that there is no link (example.com, not http://www.example.com). Provide links demonstrating widespread spamming by multiple users on multiple wikis. Completed requests will be marked as {{added}} or {{declined}} and archived.

trainpetdog.com



(from en:MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist)

This domain has been repeatedly added to dog-related articles. I removed it from 25 en.wikipedia articles yesterday and from pt.wikipedia and no.wikipedia today. After reading this link and this link I can only conclude that this is a criminal scam run from India and it should be blacklisted immediately. The pattern of adding the spam is interesting, a different IP address is used each time, but always from the same Indian-registered ISP. Below are a few of the IP addresses used, but this list is by no means exhaustive:













I have seen this one before, so am adding it now. JzG 00:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

  • This seems to be a well-known scam, and we have seen similar reports before, so I am expanding the listing to include the scammer's other known sites:




































FYI, both sets got Added Added and logged.  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 03:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

aerobaticteams.net



Per COIBot XWiki report, this one has been abused, however there are some legitimate uses. I think we can blacklist this for now - if it becomes a problem in the future, we can remove it again, or consider whitelisting. As well, recall that the blacklist no longer "locks" pages with spam links - you can still save the page as long as you're not adding links.  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 00:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Lots of abuse on en:
- MER-C 10:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
In adition: (all links in en-wiki) and this domain:


I suggest the adition Dferg (T-ES) 10:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

I added all the spam.aerobaticteams.net links for tracking purposes (that's why the subdomain is "spam"). MER-C 13:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

alojamientosruralesdecantabria.com and alojamientosrurales.net









See Coibot reports. This is pure spam, please add this on to the blacklist soon. I have removed all links manually. This user is a persistent spammer. Besides the links mentioned above he spams:

  • santillana-del-mar.com
  • santillana-del-mar.ES
  • hellwars.com

This user deserves a global block in my opinion (at least several days). EdBever 11:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Added Added all  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 17:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

ceo-europe.com



See Coibot report. This is commercial spam. EdBever 11:37, 23 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Added Added. --Erwin(85) 18:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

harptabs.com



(Violates copyright laws. Free transcriptions of copyrighted music in tablature form. Includes melodies, harmonies, lyrics, videos of various artists performances, recordings of these songs without a license from the copyright holder).

Highly Agreed. - By: Mister31

Online Tools & Documents Inc. spam

Domains

































Accounts











Reference

--A. B. (talk) 01:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Reply


Added Added --A. B. (talk) 01:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Rummy spam

Domains














Spammers
















See WikiProject Spam item (permanent link). MER-C 12:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

smnoticias.com.ar



This domain has been repeatedly added spam, and create a autopromotional article: [[1]] — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bashebore (talk)

Sorry, as I can see the additions where only on es-wikipedia and where only three. If you believe this link must be blacklisted, request it on es-wiki in es:MediaWiki Discusión:Spam-blacklist. Thank you. Dferg (T-ES) 09:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

bstat.eu







Spammers




  • ... and more

See WikiProject Spam item. MER-C 09:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Reply



from User:COIBot/XWiki/marathispice.com

Comment Comment several IP's have been warned on en:. Spam mainly on en:. I'll close this report for now since the link might be somewhat relevant. EdBever 11:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Reverted & closed.  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 00:43, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Closed report, reopened. --COIBot 13:41, 29 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

I've reverted the remaining links. It can be closed now without COIbot reopening it. Techman224Talk 02:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Reply



Spamed domains

Spammed to either mr.wikipedia or en.wikipedia by the IPs above



  • Google Adsense ID: 2232589759945075


  • Google Adsense ID: 0404522952465260


  • Google Adsense ID: none. Appears to be a strongly POV political site


  • Google Adsense ID: 0698342953835235


  • Google Adsense ID: 7371266777358893


  • Google Adsense ID: 4518472115396516


  • Google Adsense ID: 1929048813996693


Related domains


  • Google Adsense ID: 2958192346425485


  • Google Adsense ID: 4170322582269652


  • Google Adsense ID: 1359015326600215


  • Google Adsense ID: 0253979071552084


  • Google Adsense ID: 9162384759067530


  • Google Adsense ID: 5648417228888743

Since there's been more than one instance of cross-wiki spam, I recommend blacklisting all of these on Meta except hindujagruti.org. --A. B. (talk) 16:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC)Reply


mr.wikipedia link searches:
--A. B. (talk) 16:39, 29 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
Moved this to Talk:Spam blacklist.  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 18:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

davidbenariel.org



sample spamming

This guy has been POV pushing through spam to self published pieces for a long time. I asked for and received blacklisting on a bunch of blogspot articles and ezine.com last year on Meta [2].

Turns out he's been back with his own domain since March of this year. Sites added to multiple articles by multiple IPs over a fairly long period of time so blocks and protection aren't going to work. Have been asked at en:wiki to seek Meta level blacklisting to prevent this site spilling over onto other projects since the previous sites were crosswiki spammed.[3] Thanks -- SiobhanHansa 19:39, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Yes, here's some background on his previous cross-wiki spamming:
Sample edits:
Here are more Ben-Ariel domains:






























Google Adsense IDs: 3166669759832371, 5366185733900268
--A. B. (talk)
Added Added --A. B. (talk) 20:46, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

cavenaghi.artelista.com





This user adds links to cavenaghi.artelista.com on different projects like on de, en, it and nl. Silver Spoon 19:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Reply



Also Active as IP-adress on es, pt and fr. Silver Spoon 19:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Proposed additions (Bot reported)

This section is for websites which have been added to multiple wikis as observed by a bot.

Items there will automatically be archived by the bot when they get stale.

Sysops, please change the LinkStatus template to closed ({{LinkStatus|closed}}) when the report is dealt with.

These are automated reports, please check the records and the link thoroughly, it may be good links! For some more info, see Spam blacklist/Help#COIBot_reports

If the report contains links to less than 5 wikis, then only add it when it is really spam. Otherwise just revert the link-additions, and close the report, closed reports will be reopened when spamming continues.

The bot will automagically mark as stale any reports that have less than 5 links reported, which have not been edited in the last 7 days, and where the last editor is COIBot. They can be found in this category.

Please place suggestions on the automated reports in the discussion section.

Running, will report a certain domain shortly after a link is used more than 2 times by one user on more than 2 wikipedia (technically: when more than 66% of this link has been added by this user, and more than 66% of this link were added XWiki). Same system as SpamReportBot (discussions after the remark "<!-- Please put comments after this remark -->" at the bottom; please close reports when reverted/blacklisted/waiting for more or ignore when good link)

List Last update By Site IP R Last user Last link addition User Link User - Link User - Link - Wikis Link - Wikis
vrsystems.ru 2023-06-27 15:51:16 COIBot 195.24.68.17 192.36.57.94
193.46.56.178
194.71.126.227
93.99.104.93
2070-01-01 05:00:00 4 4

Proposed removals

This section is for proposing that a website be unlisted; please add new entries at the bottom of the section.

Remember to provide the specific domain blacklisted, links to the articles they are used in or useful to, and arguments in favour of unlisting. Completed requests will be marked as {{removed}} or {{declined}} and archived.

See also /recurring requests for repeatedly proposed (and refused) removals.

The addition or removal of a domain from the blacklist is not a vote; please do not bold the first words in statements.

WikiJava.org



Please remove the domain wikijava.org from the blacklist. WikiJava is a wiki about Java, it contains any kind of information about the programming language and all the related technologies. It is an important external link for Java_(programming_language). People interested in getting more information about Java will definitively appreciate this link.

Thanks, --Dongiulio 10:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Furthermore its entire contents are as written with the GFDL license as WikiPedia. I think the blacklisting should be removed. Thanks, --Hedoluna 10:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

I'm afraid the domain was spammed, as clearly shown in the bot report. Furthermore, I belive it fails WP:EL (can't double-check right now, as the site is down), so I can't even recommend that you seek whitelisting.  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 15:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I spammed the domain because I didn't know about the spam policies. I should have checked first, I'm sorry, now I am aware of the rules and I'll act in accordance.

I believe that links to WikiJava would be a benefit for Wikipedia for, in depth, techy information about Java topics. For example in the following articles (I had to break the links because of the spam filter):

  • Wikipedia:Singleton_pattern#Java should contain a paragraph including the http://www. wikijava.org/wiki/Singleton_Factory_patterns_example which is a new (GFDL)implementation, that enables to make a singleton out of any object.
  • Wikipedia:Apache_Maven could contain a link to http://www. wikijava.org/wiki/Starting_a_Java_project_with_Maven_2, which contains an explanation on how to run a first Java application in Maven.
  • Wikipedia:Generics_in_Java could contain a link to http://www. wikijava.org/wiki/Unchecked_Variables_tutorial, which clearly shows how generics should be used and which errors to avoid.
  • Wikipedia:Reflection_(computer_science) could contain a link to http://www. wikijava.org/wiki/Class_and_static_Method_Reflection_example, which contains an example of implementation of the reflection in Java.
  • Wikipedia:Java_Cryptography_Extension (referred on Wikipedia by 7 articles but it doesn't even exist. - I plan to write it) could contain a link to http://www. wikijava.org/wiki/Secret_Key_Cryptography_Tutorial, which shows how to use the Java Cryptography Extension for a simple secret key encryption message exchanging tool

I could continue this list, Also considering that WikiJava will soon contain complete categories with in depth details about all the topics about programming which an encyclopedia can't cover at the same level of detail.

I believe WikiJava matches the WP:EL that you mentioned. In particular in the What to link section all the three points are met. In the What should be linked section the points three (amount of detail) and four (meaningful, relevant content) points are met. In the Links normally to be avoided point 12 (links to open wikis without substancial background) looks like a measure to grant the credibility of the information provided and WikiJava has absolute credibility since its contents are 100% verifiable by anyone by simply compiling and executing the code published.

I don't know why the website was down for you, that shouldn't have happened. I hope you'll get to the site the next time you'll attempt to. Please let me know if you get more problems accessing it.

Thank you, --Dongiulio 10:12, 19 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

There was definitely reason to blacklist this URL. However, if it's as useful as you say it is established Wikipedia editors will want to link to it at some point and request removal. Until that time I see no reason to actually remove it from the list. --Erwin(85) 20:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

I thought we were _all_ editors in WikiPedia. I'm asking the removal, too. --Hedoluna 13:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hedoluna and Dongiulio, the link was clearly spammed (and as you both are new accounts, here and on en; Dongiulio even added the link on en; and both have on these wikis no further edits than concerned this link), and added to inappropriate places (we are not a linkfarm and such). I suggest that you both seek contact with a wikiproject (for en, see en:Wikipedia:WikiProject, or look on some talkpages of pages where you think the link is of interest, the wikiprojects have often a banner on top of those pages; other wikis have similar systems), and ask editors there if they think the link is an asset.

People always skip the intro of en:WP:EL ("... If the website or page to which you want to link includes information that is not yet a part of the article, consider using it as a source for the article, and citing it..."), but always jump to en:WP:ELYES. They also forget the policies that are the basis of that guideline (e.g. sections in en:WP:NOT). We are writing an encyclopedia here.

Yes, we are all editors here, but if there is abuse, we ask editors who have been around for a longer time (established editors) and see if they think the information is appropriate. I am sorry, but until such time, again,  Declined. --Dirk Beetstra T C (en: U, T) 14:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

scififantasyfiction. suite101. com



I wanted to use this article as a reference, but it is blacklisted. Where can i find out why? I would guess it was added to random SF pages as an external link, but it is still a reliable source for referencing. Can it be delisted? I cannot even insert it here for this request!

suite101.com has been blacklisted for some time after lots of spamming. Please see archived requests. This is  Declined until the issues which led to the initial blacklisting and subsequent denials for de-listing are addressed adequately. Please do some research to show the situation has changed.  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 19:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
It's a matter for the local whitelist, where it is already being discussed. JzG 07:18, 29 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

roomsinscotland.com



I had my site blacklisted due to the fact i had submitted it to multiple wikis, i didnt realise this would be considered spam, i just thought they would be independatly reviewed(by each wiki) and if relavant then added and if not then declined. After looking over the guidlines it seems that there is an automatic ban if there are links accross multiple wikis, i assume this is why i never recived a warning or an information on the problem. If the links are not allowed on other wikis then i can accept that, but i dont know why they should be removed from the En Wiki as well and therfore would like to be on the whitelist for en wiki. thanks

There's nothing automatic; the domain was blacklisted after widespread linking. Our projects don't need to link to that domain, so I fail to see why this request should not be  Declined  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 19:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Ok i am even more confused now, i think what you are saying is that because there were multiple pages from the site that had a link in wiki then that is considered spam and therefore blacklisted. Again i just assumed if you had a relevant page on your site that had relevance to a topic on wiki then you could submit it to an editor who would determine both its relevance and quality and then add or remove the link. Its not as if i am sumbitting hundreds of links each month or repeatadley submitting the same links (which i would consider to be spam actions). I assume when you say that the projects dont need to link to the site that the pages should not have been added in the first place, which although i would disagree is fair enough, but then the issue is that the editors were wrong to add the links in the first place which is not my fault, i mean they should know the guidlines better than i ever would. So to then blacklist the site because of that seems a bit harsh.

Please bear in mind this is about encyclopaedic content. With due respect "roomsinscotland" might fit well in a web directory but not in an encyclopaedia. Thanks --Herby talk thyme 11:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

asyncop.com



can't post because the "page is blocked by a spam filter" are you kidding me?? asyncop.com The preceding unsigned comment was added by 148.177.128.81 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 27 October 2008.

I can't find this in the log. It probably was added around April 30 this year?
Looking at the history of one of the articles on en.wikipedia where someone, editing from the same IP as you used to post here, inserted the links asyncop.net and multicore.ning.com yesterday, I found that User:Asafshelly had been inserting some asyncop.com links there.










--Jorunn 11:40, 28 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
It was added to the blacklist in this edit: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Spam_blacklist&diff=prev&oldid=979194 --Jorunn 11:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

General note

A general point to note for all members of Wikimedia - You may not believe you are being used for advertising, however the reality is that you are, big time. If you don't like this association and truly don't want to clearly favour some site over others you must remove all links to profit making web sites. I quite expect some curt retort on this comment or for it to be deleted but it is a fact, whether you like it or not. --09:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)~ — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pepperpot9999 (talk)

We are aware of the fact that the wikis are being used for advertising, this blacklist is a part of the work to try to stop some of it. Lots more work is done locally on the wikis. Banning all links to comercial websites isn't an option. We need the information some of them provide, and we need to be able to link to the official website of companies etc. in the articles about those companies.
If you know of a link you belive has been spammed, please feel free to tell us about it, or just remove it yourself (please state the reason for the removal in the edit summary). --Jorunn 11:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
Additionally, most are not the subject of abuse. But some undoubtedly are, and the fact that this results in some sites being blacklisted while superficially similar sites are not generally comes under the heading of "things you should have thought of before you tried to use Wikipedia for self-promotion". JzG 07:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Troubleshooting and problems

This section is for comments related to problems with the blacklist (such as incorrect syntax or entries not being blocked), or problems saving a page because of a blacklisted link. This is not the section to request that an entry be unlisted (see Proposed removals above).

archive/log searching

Hi!
1. How should the spam archive search be used? At the moment I can't get any results. Is it broken (and has this something to do with our recent archive movings)? If so, perhaps we should link to a google-search as an interim.
2. Is this tool searching the archive only or logs too? What about my log-search-tool [4]? Should it be transferred on our toolserver or may it remain where it is? I suppose to place a link to that tool on this page near the archive-search-tool.
3. I just had a look at [5] and saw that the archive is inconsistent now. What should we do with that? I guess it should be somehow consistent because search tools could depend on that. -- seth 15:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)Reply

The search tool is hopefully not dependent on how the archives are named. I can get results currently though (and I could get results when we used the subpage convention). This is tied to your third question. Pathoschild is enamoured with his "Standard archival system". However much I hate it, to keep the peace we should all do what he says and use the YYYY-MM convention. sigh
The archive search tool only searches archives. I'd be happy to see your log search tool run on the toolserver; you can request an account at TS/A.
 — Mike.lifeguard | talk 15:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)Reply
1. Ok, but ehm, if I search for "mustangranch.com" I want to find Talk:Spam_blacklist/Archives/2008/01#mustangranch.com, but I find nothing. What am I doing wrong?
2. TS/A#de:user:lustiger_seth
3. So shall we leave this like it is? and what about that?-- seth 17:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)Reply
Subpages for the logs should not be changed (consistency with that was the reason I had moved the archives to subpages too, but Pathoschild didn't like that). I'll move the remaining subpage archives, and delete redirects wherever possible.  — Mike.lifeguard | talk 22:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps someone should look at the source code for Eagle's tool, or if he's around, someone should ask him.  — Mike.lifeguard | talk 22:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)Reply

User: namespace abuse

This section is for reporting abuse of userpages for promotional purposes; add new entries at the bottom of the section, using the basic URL so that there is no link (example.com, not http://www.example.com). Abuse across several wikis should be reported here; please provide links to example behaviour. Completed requests will be marked as {{added}} or {{declined}} and archived.



Discussion

Local spam (seeking local volunteers)

Similar to the XWiki catching of domains, the linkwatchers (the off-wiki bots that do the actual parsing of the diffs and extraction of external links; reporting the results to IRC) also catch local spam. Until a couple of days that just resulted in on-IRC remarks, but I have now made the bots save that data to off-wiki files on the computer where they run on (data is saved 'per wiki, so a file for en.wikipedia.org, a file for de.wikipedia.org .. etc.'). They tend to catch new links added by users who focus on one link/domainhost, links only added by IP accounts and links that are added by a small range of IPs(they report only when they pass the threshold and not again, what happens after that will have to be retrieved from local searches or with the help of COIBot).

The information there is pretty sensitive, and I think that it is not suitable for unfiltered on-wiki publication; it does contain quite a percentage of good links, and good editors, which I think have to be removed by hand. However, from a list of 80 links from a report on en.wikipedia I did add over 30 to en:User:XLinkBot (and some rubbish might just have to go directly to the local or meta blacklists). I have made the filter a bit stricter, but it will probably still contain quite some good stuff.

If local admins are interested in having a copy of the data, then please give me a sign (maybe I should make a list somewhere, say User:COIBot/Local or something like that) where people can give their username, a link to a wikipedia e-mail page, and which wiki(s) you'd like to have the list from. I will then try, on a 'regular' basis, to send that list to those editors (bit depending on size and how many volunteers per-wiki, etc., but I am thinking once every so many days; I might in the end even try to write a bot to perform the mailings). --Dirk Beetstra T C (en: U, T) 11:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

(Please feel free to notify local editors on local noticeboards or appropriate talkpages if you feel that that may result in volunteers who are not active on meta, but who may be interested.) --Dirk Beetstra T C (en: U, T) 11:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

You know Beetstra, I'm interested. I will notify some Spanish Administrators if they are interested on.
Dferg (talk) 14:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
I am interested in nl: wiki. Perhaps some other admins as well. EdBever 16:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Logging tool

Copied from User_talk:Mike.lifeguard. --Erwin(85) 15:31, 26 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I'm thinking about making the logging easier with some javascript. I'm thinking of either including the latest oldid of Spam blacklist in bot reports if you made the last edit yourself. (So after adding a URL from a report you reload the report and simply copy/paste the logging snippet.) Another option would be to make the link from Spam blacklist include the current oldid and automatically append that to the log. Any thoughts/suggestions? --Erwin(85) 18:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

Probably something like commons:MediaWiki:Gadget-DelReqHandler.js would be ideal. I made a flowchart which encompasses the usual stuff we do with additions/removals and declining requests. Probably the Commons script will be a very good framework for handling requests on Talk:Spam blacklist especially. Looking forward to seeing where this takes us.
I'm also going to see about using inputbox to make adding to the spam blacklist easier. Wish me luck :D  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 19:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
OK, well inputbox is crap. But perhaps I can bribe someone into making LogEntry better.  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 21:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
Sounds good. I'm not sure about the actual process though. Logging can be done with AJAX, but I think the spam blacklist should only show the intended differences, similar to your removespam.js. Every edit should need confirmation. In any case I really need to have a script that closes reports for me. I seem to forget that about half the times. --Erwin(85) 11:18, 26 October 2008 (UTC)Reply
Me too - bot reports should be comparatively easier to do. Yes, we'd want to confirm the edit on the blacklist itself - show the diff. Upon save, the rest can proceed automatically. I'll see about contacting Dschwen for some help, as he had asked Herby about this previously.  — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 13:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Reply