Grants talk:Project/Rapid/UG GR/Wiki Loves Monuments in Greece

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Comments from Greek Wikipedia Community[edit]

Comment Comment Pointing your attention to an important matter: The Greek law on antiquities includes specific stipulations on the legal use of all reproductions of movable and immovable objects of cultural heritage prior to 1830 (i.e. antiquities). This is an additional "headache" to the lack of freedom of panorama, as it affects all of Greece's ancient heritage. Pay special attention to Article 46 par. 4 (page 65 of the translated law): to create a database with photos of such monuments a permit must be granted and a fee paid to the Ministry of Culture. This is certainly a "backwards" provision, nevertheless its implications may potentially cause serious legal trouble to the WMF, WCUG Greece and of course the winners of the competition! This was briefly discussed in the Greek village pump and WCUG mentioned that they have consulted lawyers and have dealt with the issue, and that they would communicate their solution. I have not seen anything of the like and I think it would be useful for an explanation to be provided here or on the discussion page. It would be a pity for the competition to start - tomorrow! - with these important details "pending". Not to mention the legal implications, or the disappointment of the participants (especially after it has been publicized far and wide). Hope the organizers have found a workaround for the first Wiki Loves Monuments in Greece!--Saintfevrier (talk) 16:33, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Saintfevrier We have not included any monuments that conflict to the Greek Law. Moreover, we consulted lawyers and the international organisers. In our official website we provide answers. By the way, the correct place to discuss this is the talk page. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:52, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

This is simply not true, the penalty is up to 10 years in prison and the participants are only warned AFTER they upload the image, that the particular one is under the Greek law on antiquities, and what the possible implications are for them if they do not align to the law. Not all pictures are under this law, only those of monuments before 1830, as well as their surrounding landscape. It is extremely difficult to get license for publishing such pictures in Greece even for an archaeologist. All participants in great danger, especially the winners, because they are not adequately informed.62.38.222.229 17:33, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Oppose Oppose The Greek law is here, the Greek community is in danger law and Presidential edict --Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής (talk) 17:53, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής the list chosen is not under this law. Moreover, WM UG Greece has a lawyer, Diu who can answer any more questions that you or anyone else may have. Thanks, Magioladitis (talk) 18:17, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Comment CommentMagioladitis you haven't answered any of the questions of other Greek wikipedian, about the Greek archaelogic law for monuments before 1830 in the Greek village pump. The issue is not about the Greek panorama restriction.--Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής (talk) 18:33, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής I replied already. It is legal to photograph any of the places asked. Moreover, if the CC-by-SA rules hold in addition to the WMF terms of use. We issue a legal notice in both Greek and English here. About the issue that the warning is given "after". I think the anonoymous IP does not know how Commons works. All photos are uploaded and then defines the correct license. This is global. And the photo is not really uploaded till the uploader defines the license and agrees to the terms of use. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:44, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Comment Comment Magioladitis The problem is that the photographer does not know the archaeological law, that has to get a formal written licence for using the picture all over the world, even for pictures of places without entrance fees, and the danger of all this. The photographer is not protected before uploading the picture and cannot even know that it cannot be used in Greece, before uploading it.--Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής (talk) 19:00, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion, as a lawyer, there is not any conflict with greek law. Of course It's true that there are restrictions for the production, reproduction and dissemination to the public but it's not accurate that these restrictions concern us. According to Article 46 par. 4 of law No 3028/2003 on the protection of antiquities and cultural heritage in general a permit shall be required for the production, reproduction and dissemination to the public, for direct or indirect financial or commercial purpose. However under article 46 a ministerial decision (ΥΑ ΥΠΠΟΤ/ΔΟΕΠΥ/ΤΟΠΥΝΣ/126463, ΦΕΚ Β΄ 3046/30.12.2011) has been issued, which refers, in article 1, that taking photos in archaelogical sites, museums and monuments without professional equipment is permitted withouτ any fee. In article 5 of the same law is referred that "for the use of images on internet without any direct or indirrect purpose is not needed to defray any fee". So it seems to me that it's legal to photograph this kind of places.−−Diu (talk) 19:03, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Comment Comment Some points to consider:
  • who do you mean by us: WCUG Greece? the international organizers? The participants? The winners?
  • From what I saw on the main page, the competition has been communicated to two sites/fora that comprise primarily professional photographers. Do you mean that you will advise these professionals to refrain from using the equipment of their trade in their entries?
  • What "seems to you" as legal is of little importance when you are actively encouraging Greek people - who have enough problems as it were - to violate the Antiquities Law. Is it not so that the photos are to be released under the typical CC license used on the WM projects? Does this license include NC in its description? OF COURSE NOT, otherwise it would not be acceptable by Commons. So in other words you are encouraging people to take photos and release them to the public, among which public may be parties interested in the commercial use of these photos. Do you have any idea what degree of risk this entails for the unsuspecting participant? And the risk culminates if he/she should be so lucky as to win one of the monetary prizes, in which case he will have to disclose his full name in a bank document to receive the prize.

NOTE: I am not endorsing the policy the Greek Ministry of Culture applies to its cultural heritage objects! The restrictions are superfluous and discouraging. However that does not change the fact that they ARE indeed restrictions and WCUG Greece should have gone to extreme lengths to protect the unsuspecting participants. The way I see it, the only parties being protected are the organizers (local and international). NOT the participants. Have a look here: quite an interesting Q & A list. Moreover, I believe you will find this an interesting read.

  • Last but not least, as pertains to the pricelist WCUG invokes in the FAQ section of their related blog post. Have you made any mention that if someone decides to use a drone he/she will have to pay 500 Euro?

--Saintfevrier (talk) 23:01, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

About drones please read this article and for Cyprus it holds this. And for the Greek aw read this. I am not sure why we have to rewrite he law for the drone holders in Greece. Anyone using a drone in Greece should be aware of the law. The same holds for cars. -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:14, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough. Please explain the other aspects I have mentioned above, with proper referencing of course. --Saintfevrier (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
  • A quick petscan reveals that https://petscan.wmflabs.org/?language=commons&project=wikimedia&depth=5&categories=Archaeological%20sites%20in%20Greece&ns[6]=1&interface_language=en&&doit= there are already 28,000 pages of Greek monuments in Commons. No legal issues ever occurred.
  • File:20101024 Acropolis panoramic view from Areopagus hill Athens Greece.jpg was selected as picture of the day on Wikimedia Commons for 2 February 2011. No legal issues ever occurred.
  • The monuments we ask to be photographed were carefully selected.
  • We have a FAQ that answers all the related questions in both Greek and English.
  • We provide help and explanations on legal issues for all participants.
  • Diu is a member of the user group and lawyer. He assures that there will be no legal issues.
  • The project is coordinated in association with the international organisers.
  • We have help by Postscriptum which knows and constantly researches on European digital cultural policies since 1991.
  • This page is about the grant part and not the Greek participation to the competition itself. This has already been decided and the competition is already on.
  • Already community non-user group members contributed in expanding the list. Photos are already being uploaded.

-- Magioladitis (talk) 22:32, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Again, for those who comment. This page is only for the grant request. The competition has started. Thanks for the feedback, Magioladitis (talk) 06:33, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Then perhaps it would be a good idea to carry the discussion over to the Greek village pump, as it directly concerns the protection of Greek users against the law and there are quite a few points that remain vague. Thanks for the advice. --Saintfevrier (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Similar grant requests[edit]

-- Magioladitis (talk) 13:06, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Funding decision[edit]

Thank you Magioladitis and Glavkos for creating this request and engaging in the discussion both here and on the village pump about ways you are supporting contest participants to observe laws around freedom of panorama in Greece. We trust that the discussion about whether to host the contest has been resolved as the contest has begun and people have begun uploading photos. We are pleased to support this request and look forward to hearing about your experience with your first WLM. --KHarold (WMF) (talk) 17:18, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Changes to line items and adding lines to our budget[edit]

Hello KHarold (WMF) & Alex Wang (WMF) as we are preparing the editathon & the award ceremony for Wiki Loves Monuments we would like to inform you that we have already booked a venue in the centre of Athens (all details will be available later): Need to say here that while the photo contest is going very well so far (2.717 uploads when the goal was 1.000) we managed to make 2 photo-expeditions (in Athens and Corfu) but with no costs at all (they were walk photo-expeditions). But still there are many things to be done, as the actual usage of pictures in articles is very low. This time we decided to organize an online edit-a-thon apart from the award ceremony (it has been announced already on el.wiki village pump and it will last 5 days from 10 to 14 December).

We need to achieve also our other targets related to readership and participation.

What we need:

  • Tickets for winners and organizers in order to be present during the event : 180 euro (we will not cover hotels or other lodging expenses). We have contacted all the the winners. Most of the them live in Athens. We can give them an incentive paying bus or train tickets (only from the mainland of Greece). Let's say maximum 3 tickets for organizers and winners (might be less, but we don't know the distances and the accurate number of travellers yet), plus urban transportation : 180 euro
  • Soft drinks, water , snacks, cookies (not actually real food) : 105 69 euro
  • Venue : 150 186 euro
  • Online Edit-a-thon awards: We will give books for the winners, not money. Books are good because after reading Wikipedians are used to contribute more. Cost : 75 euro

We amend the lines 4, 5 and 6 of the budget :

Number Category Item description Unit Number of units Cost per unit Total cost Currency Notes
4 Travelling expenses travelling expenses for possible photo expeditions person n/d yet n/a 180.00 EUR for getting the organisers to some of the areas in case of an organised Wikiexpedition. Currently not planned, but in any case unused funds will be reimbursed to WMF
5 Soft drinks and water catering served during the edit-a-thon and Award ceremony n/a n/a n/a 80.00 EUR Soft drinks and water that will be served during the editathon and award ceremony.
6 Venue Venue for the editathon and Award ceremony n/a n/d yet n/a 250.00 EUR Most probably we will arrange for an appropriate venue for free, as in the last competition. Nevertheless we need to be safe on this. This price was negotiated with an institution during ESPC, before we get the NCSR Demokritos for free.

To be shaped as following adding also the line 9:

Number Category Item description Unit Number of units Cost per unit Total cost Currency Notes
4 Travelling expenses travelling expenses for winners and organizers person n/d yet n/a 180.00 EUR for getting the organisers and winners to the award ceremony
5 Soft drinks and water catering served during the edit-a-thon and Award ceremony n/a n/a n/a 69.00 EUR Soft drinks and water that will be served during event of the award ceremony.
6 Venue Venue for the editathon and Award ceremony n/a n/d yet n/a 186.00 EUR We had a special price thanks to Postscriptum agency in the centre of Athens
9 Prizes for online edit-a-thon Prizes for the winners of the edit-a-thon n/a n/d yet n/a 75.00 EUR Books for the 3 first winners that they can choose from an online book store and delivered to their address
Hi Glavkos. Thank you for the detailed explanation. This change to the budget is approved. Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 03:18, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Hi @AWang (WMF): please approve a last minute change in the budget as I forgot to add VAT tax to the cost of the venue. I was informed about that just today. It's 36 euro more for the venue, which we cut off from soft drinks. Thank you!!!--Γλαύκος (talk) 11:11, 8 December 2016 (UTC)