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Warning! Please do not post any new comments on this page. This is a discussion archive first created in December 2004, although the comments contained were likely posted before and after this date. See current discussion or the archives index.

Using Wikipedia pages

I need to use the "Selected Anniverseries" from the main page on my site. I've seen other sites copy stuff from the Wikipedia, and I've tried GetWiki, but I couldn't get it to work. How do I do this? 06/14/04 18:13

  • Use Generally, you replace spaces in the article name with underscores, and only capitalize the first letter (with exceptions made for proper nouns.) Or you can do it the easy way: go to that article on the Wikipedia itself and then just copy the URL in the address bar. --Ardonik 21:58, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Forcing cache pages

Since introduction of MediaWiki 1.3 there is no cache for cs:Speciální:Lonelypages, cs:Speciální:Popularpages, cs:Speciální:Wantedpages, cs:Speciální:Shortpages, cs:Speciální:Longpages, cs:Speciální:Ancientpages, cs:Speciální:Deadendpages. How to force caching them? -- V. Z. 06:45, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Cannot block user with space in Username

There is a user in Chinese version called "Veronica s" who keep on posting contents violating the copyright requirement of Wikipedia. Since there is a space in her name, we cannot put her into the ban list. Is there any workaround for this problem?-- 04:48, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Maybe you can use '_' instead of the space? - Andre Engels 11:57, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Interwiki image links

I'm not doing well at finding interwiki info today. Just tried to link to an image with [[Image:Stop_sign_us.jpg]] and it claims to not exist (presumably because it's in the english wiki). I tried en:, w:, wiki:, the full URL, Wikipedia:, and various combinations of those, and using slashes instead of colons, and I'm running out of ideas and can't find help on it. Help? (meekly) Elf 16:26, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

While looking for something else, I answered my own question: Apparently it cannot be done at all, period. See Sharing images across projects for discussion on possible enhancements to fix this. Elf 17:52, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This is the one on en: This does not work the other way around. See images.

--Patrick 22:35, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Upload file

Hello, I have scoured the whole site for onformation on the upload file feature in the new wiki version 1.3. It is disabled by default it says. I have make the image directory writable but it still doesnt work. Is there anything else i need to do?

  • I solved my own question :). I will post the answer for anyone who needs help with the same thing. To enable the upload file feature you need to edit the localsettings .php file to the following:
#To enable image uploads, make sure the 'images' directory
#is writable, then uncomment this:
$wgDisableUploads		= false;
$wgUseImageResize		= true;
$wgUseImageMagick = true;
$wgImageMagickConvertCommand = "/usr/bin/convert";

Integration from another Wiki?

Is it okay to take text from another wiki on a topic? I want to integrate some of the entries in this list of memes from 4chan into the article 4chan for completion. What's the copyright status of something in another Wiki? And if it's not okay, how significant does the rewrite have to be?

I am no expert, but obviously you should check the other wiki's licence - if it's GPL or something like that, you're home free. If not, well, I guess just as significant as for incorporating any other material from a copyighted source: facts are public domain, but not their selection, arrangement and formulations. --Maly ctenar 16:17, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Audio file from the Paris meeting


The audio file from the press conference in Paris on July 4th is available at

It lasts 70 minutes and it makes about 47 MB. Most of it is in English and translated in French.


La quasi intégralité de la conférence de presse est apparemment disponible ici :

Ca dure 70 minutes et ça pèse environ 47 Mo.

J'attaquerai la 2e partie (l'intervention de JB Souffron et les débats qui ont suivis) qu'en fin de semaine prochaine car je m'absente qq jours.

A bientôt. Thomas. (pour info. Yann 11:07, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)).


在zh.wp, ?"?于汉?Oe-系统?·Oe面?,,mediawiki名?--空?--?突?,,?不起作?"?了?Oe怎么?>??<?--Shizhao 02:52, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Meta at Wikimedia

When was meta switched to

just a couple of days ago.

Hmm, somehow I removed the translations during the archiving, and now I can't find them to put them back. Dori | Talk 19:38, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

well, it is okay with me :-) ant

Klingon interwiki

Why are the links to Klingon Wikipedia not treated as interwiki links (i.e. they appear in the message body rather than in the "other languages" box? e.g. tlh:tlhIngan Hol link at en:Klingon language Ausir 20:04, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

in Romanian/în limba română: Dece nu sunt tratate legăturile interwiki la Wikipedia în Klingon ca şi alte legături (adică, apar în articol în loc de cutia 'în alte limbi' (other languages)?

There was a compromise on the mailing list that the Klingon Wikipedia would only be allowed to exist if interwiki links were disabled. Angela 23:12, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

in Romanian/în limba română: A fost făcut un compromis pe lista de mail - adică, că Wikipedia în Klingon să nu existe numai dacă legăturile interwiki să nu meargă.

Asta cred că e puţin discriminatoriu! Adică, dece să ne purtăm aşa cu Klingon? Wikipedia trebuie să fie un proiect libertin şi democratic, că doar rău nu se poate întâmpla. Ronline 06:47, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
in English: I think this is a tad discriminatory. I don't understand why we need to put all these controls on the Klingon Wikipedia. Wikipedia has to be fair, free and democratic, because it's for the betterment of the whole project.
Apparently this was done to make the Klingon Interwiki links less prominent. In reality they now show up, with their full title, in the article text, which is where the reader only expects the language of that Wikipedia, rather than with just the language name in the interwiki table, where the reader would expect to see some unreadable stuff. How do we decompromise this? Aliter 23:28, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Image width= attribute without ImageMagick?

Can I specify the width= and height= attributes for an inline image without actually resizing the file? Full question with examples is here:



Why is replaced with some ad site? Ausir 11:32, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This was due to some DNS issues following the conversion of Wikibooks into language subdomains. If you can't see it already, it should be back very soon. It's working normally for some people now. Angela 09:26, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

misplaced note from feb

A number of pages in the Vicipéid namespace at the Irish Wikipedia [1] have been deleted along with their edit histories with the implementation of LanguageGa.php. Could there be any reason for this, and would there be any way to get them back? -Kwekubo 12:59, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

(was on its own tiny page +sj+ 07:47, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC))


I wonder about unicode in article names. It seems as it is impossible to use korean characters as name for articles in the swedish wiktionary. I get transfered to a special "illegal page" page when clicking on a red link containing only korean characters. Can someone help me? // Wellparp 16:33, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The nl:wiktionary has been converted to UTF-8 and now we are capable of creating Korean titled articles. There is however a queue of wikipedia who want to convert. GerardM 19:36, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

have site with help to mnd sufferers

may I use your documents on mnd .

this is the link sent to me and i have read it .it is an excellent way of describing what my spouse died of. knowing others too with different forms of mnd is xtra useful . but i just need to have your authority to copy this page and put it inside my own web page as a referral for others . just diagnosed. my site is for recipes that can help with eating .

You may copy and distribute the Document in any medium, either
commercially or noncommercially, provided that this License, the
copyright notices, and the license notice saying this License applies
to the Document are reproduced in all copies, and that you add no other
conditions whatsoever to those of this License.  You may not use
technical measures to obstruct or control the reading or further
copying of the copies you make or distribute.  However, you may accept
compensation in exchange for copies.  If you distribute a large enough
number of copies you must also follow the conditions in section 3.

You may also lend copies, under the same conditions stated above, and
you may publicly display copies.
So what you need to do is to follow that paragraph, to see how to do that look at sites such as this one which already take material off wikipedia, you'll get an example of the usage of verbatim copying there. --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 23:25, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)


Que tal sugerirmos criar um pt:Wikiatlas aqui nesse projeto? Este incluiria tanto mapas geográficos quanto históricos! , ,… O que vocês acham? --Jaques O. Carvalho 06:44, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The person above suggested to create a WikiAtlas, with Maps and geographic data.


Only Japanese.

現在、Wikiquoteの井戸端で指摘されたガイドラインなどの問題に全日本語プロジェクトでの共同が必要と判断されました。(今までの経過についてはWikiquoteの井戸端にて) またmetaでの連絡が最も有効と考えられるため投稿します。 具体的にはアカウントの使い方やライセンスなどのマニュアルの統一を図るべきだというものです。主力井戸端にも駆け寄ってみることにします。討論はここが望ましいのですが狭いためWikiquoteとWikipediaで行なってみたいと考えています。なお英語での討論は日本語しか分からない方もいるでしょう(私もそうです)と思うので日本語で討論してください。--Amigomr 08:26, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Support for Slovenian characters

e.g. Č and Š don't work, see the move that I accidentally buggered up. How can this go on requests for the next version? Duncharris 17:19, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This will work once Wikipedia has been switched to UTF-8. Wiktionary is already UTF-8 in all languages, and Wikipedia is on UTF-8 except for the English, Swedish, Danish and Dutch ones (Dutch soon to be switched). - Andre Engels 07:14, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

True multilingual wiki

Babel was thousands of years ago. Today there is wiki. How to develop true multilingual support for every single page is tried to be explained on multilingual communication. MattisManzel

Cross-project Accounts

Is there any particular reason that logins from all wikimedia projects cannot be collected on one server and synced to avoid mutiple accounts for, say, Wikipedia(en) and Wikiquote(en)? Please feel free to correct me if this is the wrong place to ask this, and let me know on my user page. netcrusher88

This has certainly been proposed. As far as I know the main reason it hasn't been done is simply the limited amount of developer time available. Isomorphic 23:04, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It's very much in discussion - some of the biggest issues are actually social as well as technical, such as what to do about multiple people who use the same username. See single login for the current state of discussion. - IMSoP 00:08, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Interwiki-links in toolbox?

Hello, is it possible to provide links to other Wiki-projects of the same language in the toolbox or so? So you could go from the Wikipedia-article "Linux" to the Wiktionary-entry "Linux" for example, to see how "Linux" (e.g.) is pronounced and so on. Or would it be the best to link from inside of the article? From the first word? ""Linux is a ...."" (with [[wiktionary:Linux|Linux]] )? To put the link to the very end of the (somethimes very long) article is not a good idea, I think! Often people do not read the complete article and have to search for the link to Wiktionary for example. It has to be easy and fast to go to an other Wiki. -- 16:21, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC) (user of and

Interlangについて / About Interlang

Interlangの「中文(繁体)」は、繁体字の事を指しているのに、何故繁体字である「體」を使わずに簡体字の「体」を使っているのでしょうか? 間違いであると思うので、修正をお願いいたします。

Why does "中文(繁体)" of Interlang use the "体" of Simplified Chinese character to have pointed out the thing of Traditional Chinese character, without using "體" which is Traditional Chinese character? Since it thinks that it is a mistake, please correct.

出来れば日本語でお願い致します。 / If you can do, I will need your help in Japanese. kahusi - (Talk) 13:49, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

test: ではちゃんと「體」と出ますね。ソースコードを見てみると、1.4のβリリースの languages/Names.php にこの設定らしいものがありました:
'zh' => '中文',	# (Zhōng Wén) - Chinese
'zh-cfr' => '閩南語', # Min-nan alias (site is at minnan)
'zh-cn' => '中文(简体)',	# Simplified
'zh-tw' => '中文(繁體)',	# Traditional
'zh-sg' => '中文(简体)', # Simplified (Singapore)
'zh-hk' => '中文(繁體)',	# Traditional (Hong Kong)
ので、現行版のこの部分も同様に修正していただければよい、のかも?(なんちゃってよくわかりません。。)Mulukhiyya 04:17, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Stop zh-tw WP !

Plese Stop zh-tw WP ( We zh WP users just study the automatic conversion work between traditional form and the simplified Chinese word, see also and Meta:Babel/Archive1#Traditional and Simpified Chinese UI --Shizhao 08:20, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In the very discussion you cite, Pektiong Tan raises doubts, and another user requests the re-opening of zh-tw. --Node ue 05:46, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Randompage too random?

Not sure where else to post this, but I hit Special:Randompage on meta and happened to get LanguageIo.php! Should this not be excluded from the random function, like redirects? Sjorford 13:56, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Nope, it's just a page. A page that is used for working on part of the source code that provides a translation of software messages, but as far as the wiki is concerned, just any old random page. Hmm... not sure I've ever tried random page on this wiki... - IMSoP 02:02, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
LOL. Btw I've got once Special:Recentchanges from the Random Page ... everything rondom is so weird, I think it is not so bad. :) --Aphaia 00:27, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)


Can WikiMedia join forces with FreeMatrix (FreeNode Radio) and CreativeCommons build the first all open source / content Internet radio network? Nah... nevermind

On second thought, how useful is wierd music? Tune in to FreeMatrix Radio at or modem.ogg. Quinobi 11:03, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism on tokipona.wp?

Please take a look at tokipona Wikipedia. Almost of all pages have been tagged "copyright infringement messages" by anon-user who seems to be a vandal-bot. If so, could someone do roll-back? I also sent an email to jan Sonyaaa, she is a sysop of tokipona.wp and the copyright holder of . Thanks, e-Goat 08:05, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)


Why don't we have a wikinews site? It could report fast on local activities around the countries they are in - think of all the eager writers and people with digicam that would stumble wherever that latest train crash was! You could rank the articles and it would also act as a yearbook. --Tmh 19:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There is a proposal to do something like this. See Wikinews and Talk:Wikinews, which already have a fair amount of discussion and ideas. Isomorphic 23:01, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Shortcut icons

It would be very helpful if each wiki had a different shortcut icon. For example, with several wikis open in different tabs, they would have a different icon depending on which wiki is in the tab. I have made some for Meta, Wikibooks, and Wikiquote with Fennec's help, and they are here. --Yath 20:21, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Spam on mn: Wikipedia

Hello. There seems to be spam (in English) on several pages of There are currently no admin on mn: and less than 20 registred users (most of them are probably not native speakers and not very active). Can someone please revert spam on mn: ? Thanks in advance. --Youssefsan 14:44, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Change all page colors on Meta back to light gray

If there are no objections I will edit MediaWiki:Monobook.css so that all page background colors on Meta are light gray again. The reason is confusion between the Wikimedia Foundation wiki and this one (because of the use of nearly the same logo). There is also still a bit of confusion between the English Wikipedia and this one, but that is not as bad now since both use different logos and Meta has been moved to the domain. I would also like to re-add the From Meta; discussion about Wikimedia projects message under each page title (the same place that From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia message is on the English Wikipedia). Countdown 48 hours. --Daniel Mayer 04:33, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Installation successful, but Start page not shown

Apache is up and running, PHP works and MySQL as well => at least for my other sites. I installed Wikimedia a few hours ago without difficulties (no errors) and since then I try to figure out, why I do not get the start page displayed?? It works fine, when I access the page directly on the server (a Windows XP machines) by typing either or localhost/wiki

Whenever I try to connect from another PC from the Intranet by typing I receive an error message ("connection refused"). My Apache/PHP work fine because I can e.g. access the /config/index.php file. The file is displayed and links to the wiki start page. When I click on the link, I get the error message again...

What in the main index.php file does prevent me from connecting to the site from a PC in the Intranet???

Update : I just figured out that the Wiki is working when you include ?title=... in the URL. It is not working when you just try to access the index.php file. Same problem when you edit the page => you cannot save the new page, but preview works...

Any ideas what causes this problem?


This could be some kind of problem with rewrite rules or some related configuration. If you're using mod_php, you automatically get working URLs of the form ".../index.php/Main_Page"; you can always access pages as ".../index.php?title=Main_Page"; only with appropriately configured rewrite rules can you go one further and get ".../Main_Page". And note that even here you can't access the root of the directory that holds the scripts; the rewrite rules are set to deal with /wiki/, whereas the actual scripts are in /w/. I believe you can change $wgArticlePath in LocalSettings.php to use the "ugly" format URLs in links, or to make any other changes to the auto-generated links so that they point to resolvable URLs. HTH - IMSoP 12:27, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What Meta is not

I've created What Meta is not. There should be a clear policy for what is permitted (or expected) on Meta; lack of a policy leads to confusion about what belongs here. This page is adapted from What Wikipedia is not. --[[User:Eequor|η♀υωρ]] 03:52, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hi. I like it very much :-) I disagree with one point (and know I am not the only one), so I mentioned it was not a community agreement and should not be considered a rule. Anthere 05:48, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I agree the "fair use" guideline is a bit sketchy. I included that mostly because I can't think of a situation on Meta where someone could reasonably claim fair use. Do you know of examples? --[[User:Eequor|η♀υωρ]] 08:17, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It would be hard to find it back, but I remember disctincly Jamesday uploaded some images of servers or technical material, which were under fair use. They were deleted. ant

merging two mediawiki-wikis

Hi. Does anybody know a possibility to merge two separately mediawiki-installations (the content of them of course). As theres is no word in the documentation and no information from anywhere it seems to be a white place on the card ;) --Graumeister 11:35, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The only fairly automatic way I can think of is to use Special:Export and Special:Import to transfer all articles from one into the other (preserving history, etc). But I'm not sure Special:Import is even fully operational yet, and that would require doing them one by one anyway. If you were willing to hack around with SQL, you could probably do it by manipulating the databases. There's some documentation lying around this wiki and in the source, I believe. You would need to at least:
  • make sure no two pages had the same name but different cur_id (they could have the same of both, and the histories would fold into each other, I imagine)
  • make sure that no two pages had the same cur_id but different names (cos that would just be evil)
  • make sure that any cur_ids you reassigned were also changed in the old table (I think that's right)
  • run the maintenance/rebuild_all script to update link tables etc
If you do make a script to do this, it would probably be worth uploading it somewhere so that others could use it too, but AFAIK nobody's done it yet. I may be wrong though. - IMSoP 14:51, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
hi imsop. i'll try to make it via script and give the explanation then on my userpage. a problem too is the fact that all ids in both wikis are counting from zero, so the most ids will exist allready. maybe the best way is to start with the larger database and import the data of the lesser db with inserts as new data. special:import does nothing. in the package it is commented out and after commenting in it says "import ok" with no data imported ;) --GrauMeister 10:09, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Done: User:Graumeister/MergingTwoMediawikiWikis --GrauMeister 14:10, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

he: n'aime que les articles anglais

On the french wikipedia fr:Ma'ame Michu received the following message in his user page:

Please stop creating interwikis from the Hebrew Wikipedia to so many languages. Our readers are interested only in the English Wikipedia. Thanks.--Roybb95 12 oct 2004 à 14:41 (CEST)

Few time later Iorsh posted this explanation to the french Bisto:

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen!

I would like to clarify a few moments. Presntly there is no official policy on Hebrew wikipedia to refrain from international links in any form. But since the issue was raised, the discussion is being held, and it's now too early to predict its results. The decision to remove some interwiki links created by Ma'ame Michu and its explanation reflect solely the opinion of the user who did it, and does not represent the majority of the Hebrew wikipedia. Iorsh 12 oct 2004 à 18:24 (CEST)

I personally think it would be really sad to loose interlanguage links with some wiki. And I think such a decision should be endorsed by the international wikipedia community Ske

This is also being discussed at the French Bistro and the equivalent in Hebrew, he:ויקיפדיה:מזנון (machine translation at User:Angela/Hebrew). Angela 22:25, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Look at the votes on Ang translation page. Majority is currently in favor of all languages. Anthere

Downloading documentation?

I want to read the mediawiki documentation locally. Is there a dump I could use? -- braver


I've put a proposal up for a Wikipedia-like project called WikiLawmaker on the relevant page. Please take a look here.

GJLawmaker 22:08, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

MediaWiki at sourceforge: Problems with texvc

Hi all. I've got a mediawiki running for a project at sourceforge. Since the project is technical in nature we need math stuff. I got the binary for texvc from mediawiki@SF (can't compile it myself at SF) and put it in the ./math/ directory. I also created the math and tmp directories needed.

When I execute texvc in the shell it works fine. I even tried the debug message created by Math.php. However, when it is used automatically only the .tex file is created and creation of the .png fails. There is an example at [2].

Has anybody seen behaviour like this before? Any ideas? Thanks for your help --Doerfler 12:19, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

recent changes @ kate's tools

kate's toolsのrecent changes、利用させて貰つてます。しかし、重い時等で時々更新を取りこぼす様です。出来れば改善して頂きたいです。kahusi - (Talk) 16:27, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC) %何方か翻訳を御願ひ致します。

I utilize Kate's Live Recentchanges. But it seems to fail sometimes to pick up some entries in case of server slow and so on. I will appliciate you if you improve this trouble. Thank you. Kahusi. (transl. by Aphaia 15:44, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC))

Lang ability templates (and/or categories)

Give a look on commons:Commons talk:Babel, please. Why not have such templates on meta too? --Aphaia 15:44, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Installing ImageMagick

Good evening. I am looking for instructions on how to install ImageMagick on a MediaWiki website using EasyPHP and MySQL. The site is running on a Windows Server 2003 machine. Are there any documented instructions on how to install and configure the program? --DanM 23:37, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Plainer links

Hello, I'm not sure where I ought to ask this, but I wanted to request that the following CSS be added to common.css on iu: --[[User:Eequor|ᓛᖁ♀]] 20:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

span.plainlinks a
   text-decoration: none !important;


Bonjour Nouveau ici Me suis enregistré sous pseudo "arioste" Question : Comment obtenir Wiki en Français ? Ce n'est pas indiqué dans les préférences. L'anglais ne me gêne pas mais je préférerais ma langue natale



Savez-vous qu'il existe an WP tout a fait en francais, c'est-a-dire: [3] ? Un autre petit truc - est-ce que vous pouvez signer vos messages en utilisant votre nom d'utilisation (typez quatre tildes), afin qu'on puisse vous envoyer des messages? Eoghan 16:20, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

translating wiki keywords


I have partially translated the system messages for the GD wikipedia, but am wondering now, how I go about translating the keywords used in articles (such as "category" and "image"). Is this done by modiying the php file? Sorry for posting this question here - I couldn't find any documentation explicitly addressing this. Eoghan 23:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please see the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Keywords on the EN wikipedia as it is building toward a lexicon for interwiki use and eventually will incorporate sound. Quinobi 16:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

LanguageGl.php update

When will LanguageGl.php be updated? We've been waiting for more than a month

--Rabalde 14:27, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

PhpWiki conversion

Hi, I developed a piecemeal process for (mostly) migrating PhpWiki content into a MediaWiki system. I've documented the process and added it at Documentation:PhpWiki conversion. If there is a more appropriate place for it please feel free to kidnap it. - KeithTyler 19:48, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Image rendering trouble

If some of you have time, please have a look at en:Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Image rendering problem. I think it's a bug with the MediaWiki software, but I am unsure. I've submitted a bug report. { MB | マイカル } 19:32, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)