Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Tatar Wikipedia

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The following discussion is closed: The result is a strong consensus to Keep.

Tatar Wikipedia has "one-man band syndrome".

w:tt:User:Untifler named Russian user uses multiple accounts.

The wikipedia uses illegal writing system. Turkic based writing that uses iso-8859-9 codepage was proposed by my workgroup in 2002 year. And now the project was closed as faulted. The are only 2-3 Turks who can good use the writing system.

Tatar Wikipedia was initiated by me in 2003, was localized by me. Structure of the wiki was developed by me. (my accounts w:tt:User:Albert Fazlî, w:tt:User:Albert Fazlî (eski), w:tt:User:Yöklewçi). The wiki contains only about 150 pages with semiusefull information, all other pages uploaded as stubs by my bot.

I can localize the wiki in short by using legal Russian based writing system. The wiki should be freezed or moved into incubator.

It's impossible to use limited resources of nonprofit Wikimedia foundation for making of useless wiki. Wikipedia is not a language ICU. If a language is dying. For such purposes exist a lot of free hostings an GNU licensed Wiki-soft.


Support

  1. Support no activity--Jaro.p 16:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Neutral

Oppose

  1. I think it is clear that the proposer is just unhappy about the script system. The project itself has several hundred pages, is active, and I do not see any reason to close it. I think the solution of the alphabet problem (which is around for many years) is a very good one. I suggest the proposer instead of arguing for the closure better joins the project and starts contributing in whatever script he likes. --Yaroslav Blanter 11:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
  2. Of course oppose. Sure, this wikipedia isn't in well quality but there are still a group of good articles, translated mediawiki, some activity. I don't see any true reason to close it. If close Tatar wikipedia when you can do it to all other bellow. But question is then it'll be better for wikipedia? Hugo.arg 21:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
  3. It is also a good example for speedy close. --Millosh 00:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
  4. I'd explained myself in General discussiom --Untifler 07:24, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
  5. I agree with Untifler. In my mind, TatWiki should be rewritten to Cyrillic alphabet but there's no point in closing it and returning to Incubator. --Himiq Dzyu 08:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
  6. Oppose per Millosh. ttwiki has a lot of possibility and no reason to shut it down: ii has pages as Yaroslav pointed out, and as said on the below, Tatar language has a large population. And Untifler has been a hard worker on a good faith for years. There might be an unfortunate misunderstanding or not. There would be problems like orthography. But they won't be reasons to close the project. Now is the time of patience .... to wait for its growing. --Aphaia 09:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
  7. Oppose. I think better is to do this:
    1. Translate site interface to Cyrillic
    2. Translate Main Page to Cyrillic
    3. Rewrite "150 pages with semiusefull information" to Cyrillic
    I am supporting switching to Cyrillic, because I am living in Ulyanovsk (tt:Сембер), where many Tatars live. Latin writing never were popular here. I've never seen Latin script in the local Tatar TV program or in the Tatar posters in the street. Rewriting of 150 pages is not so hard. Maybe it is possible to convert texts with a converter first, then correct spelling mistakes by hand. A.M.D.F. 16:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
  8. Oppose per above. I think script policy must not be very strict (Cyrillic or nothing), but anyway Cyrillic is to be set as default script. Don Alessandro 18:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
  9. Oppose closing the Wiki on the 2nd living language of Russia which has long life and strong tradition including literature tradition but surely it should be converted into really used cyrillic script instead of obsolete latin. All the modern writing tradition for more then 60 years has been based on cyrillic tatar language, why should we use nearly fiction latin script? It is killing this Wiki. Sura 21:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
    nearly fiction latin script
    This "nearly fiction" script is used in the Tatar internet as wide than Cyrillic or even wider. E.g. compare Google hits for шәһәр (7 950) and for şähär (29 500). So if one says that Zamanalif is "fiction", "original research" and "is used nowhere" he is definately mistaken. Don Alessandro 11:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    Good. I haven't got any objection besides one, and a big one by the way: you yourself point the word Internet above. Yes, in the Internet Zamanalif is used and nearly ONLY in the Internet. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a forum or a chat and if we look at NON-VIRTUAL cultural, literature and linguistic tradition we will see the there is no latin script used. Historically tatars had being using arabic script for centuries. Latin script was used for such a short time that it has left wery small heritage. And all the modern literature tradition is fully based on cyryllic script. Just ask any tatar outside Kazan Univercity or other high school does he can fluently reed latin tatar? May be 1 of 10 will ask positively in Kazan and 1 of 100 outside Kazan, and if you ask anyone outside Kazan if he could write using latin tatar without great mistakes or just write anyway you could hardly find 1 of 10000!! Just ask and you would understand that taking into consideretion whole culture, not internet cyryllic script is defenitely the most used one. And as the last example trouhgout Kazan one can find the only sign in latin tatar script on Universitet uramy (experimental) and thousands of cyryllic tatar signs. Sura 12:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
    Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a forum or a chat
    Tatar Wikipedia is an encyclopedia for Tatar-speaking Internet users (it is not a printed encyclopedia) and practice shows that considerable number of Tatar-speaking Internet users prefer Latin.
    Of course Cyrillic is spread much wider, and of course there are many pepole who know Cyrillic orthography and do not know Latin. That is why I also agree that Cyrillic is to be set as main default script in Tatar wiki. But still Zamanalif is also wide spread outside wiki and is not a fiction, so it also has its right to be represented in Tatar wikipedia. Usage of Latin orthography must not be totally banned. Don Alessandro 13:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
  10. Oppose closing TatWiki. --Ерней 16:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
  11. Oppose, and I think, that Wikipedia in Cyrillic script will be more popular. --<Flrntalk> 07:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  12. Oppose, the current situation at the wiki doesn't seem to warrant a closure. Sr13 19:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
  13. This is the opinion of Denis Sakharnykh, the Udmurt Wikipedia admin, which I copy here at his request,

Не тот алфавит, не тот язык. По сути, «татарская» википедия — это такой забавный экперимент по созданию «языка независимой витуальной Татарии», осуществлённый группой татарских сетевых активистов в своих целях (попрактиковаться в конлангерстве? потешить нац. самосознание? почувствовать себя творцами истории и культуры?). Выглядит это примерно как если бы User:Amikeco начал выпускать валюту Центрального банка Великого княжества Осетинского. То есть, конечно, это поначалу было бы очень увлекательным делом, но вечно так развлекаться было бы нельзя. Я и ждал, пока, наконец, администраторы «татарской» вики не опомнятся (глядя хотя бы на очевидную картину стагнации их проекта), но кто же знал, что всё это произойдёт в такой гротескно-идиотической, чисто нашей, урало-поволжской национальной форме! Дискуссия на мете произвела на меня очень глубокое впечатление. К сожалению, не могу принять в ней полноценного участия (из-за болезни мне сейчас не очень легко писать даже по-русски, не то что по-английски). Считал бы оптимальным на первое время: вику не закрывать, меню в обязательном порядке перевести на кириллицу; создание новых статей на латинице запретить. Что делать с накопившимся мусором латинографическим контентом — не знаю. Очевидно, переписывать на кириллицу (автоматически это сделать нельзя), но как, кто и в какие сроки, и под страхом чего — мне не понятно. Ярослав, если можно, донесите до участников дискуссии на мете мою позицию. --Denis Sacharnych 07:41, 20 марта 2008 (UTC)

My translation follows: Wrong alphabet and wrong language. Essentially, "Tatar" Wikipedia is a funny experiment to create the "language of virtual independent Tatarstan" carried out by a group of Tatar internet activists for their own purpose (to practice language creation? to enhance nationalist feelings? to feel themselves the creators of national history and culture?). It looks similarly to like if User:Amikeco (the admin of Ossetian Wikipedia - Y.M.B.) started to issue the banknotes of the Central Bank of the Great Principality of Ossetia. I mean, at the beginning it could have been very interesting, but this entertainment could hardly last forever. I actually thought that the admins of Tatar Wikipedia would stop at some point, but nobody could actually expect that this will happen in such a grotesque-idiotic form, very typical for us Ural-Volga peoples! I was deeply impressed by the Meta discussion. Unfortunately, I can not fully join the discussion (due to illness, it is hard for me to write even in Russian, not speaking of English). I think the optimal solution would be not to close the Wikipedia; to move the interface to Cyrillic alphabet; to prohibit creation of new articles using Latin alphabet. I am not sure what should be done with the existing Latin articles. Obviously, they have to be eventually put in Cyrillic (it can not be done authomatically), but who is going to do this, and when, and why, I am not sure. --Yaroslav Blanter 21:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

14. Oppose: A multi-script converter ought to be implemented on tt.wikipedia.org. For example, such systems have already been successfully implemented on Chinese (Traditional & Simplified), Serbian (Cyrillic & Latin), Kurdish (Arabic & Latin) and Kazakh (Cyrillic, Latin and Arabic) Wikipedia editions (See here). This means that people have the freedom to contribute in their preferred script as long as it written in that language. --Jose77 04:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

15. Oppose: I don't think any wikipedia deserves closure just because there are times when its activity is low or because its script has issues. There are places in the world where internet has been slow to arrive, and with time that will well change, particularly in the instant of Tatarstan in Russia. --Kuban kazak 14:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

16. Oppose:Better than a lot of other small wikis... Soxred93 01:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

17. Oppose: если закрывать Татарскую википедию то надо закрывать и все другие википедии что ниже... татарская википедия выйдет из стагнации и будет расти, как только главную страницу и все основные страницы переделают на кириллицу. статьи на латинском убирать не надо.. никто не запрещает писать на латинском.. я говорю о том, что основные страницы должны быть написаны на официальном языке, который понимает 90% татароязычных... а для желающих писать и продвигать язык на латинице эту возможность можно оставить. или даже можно на главной странице, если это возможно конечно, сделать опцию.. для желающих писать и читать на кириллице отдел где все на кириллице, а для желающих на латинице соответственно отдел где все кнопки написаны латинскими буквами... я сам татарин, но на татарском пишу плохо, так как не живу в Татарстане... очень хочу полноценно пользоваться своим родным языком и с этой целью зашел на эту страницу... где можно не только читать, но и писать.. улучшать свой язык.. и что я нашел... цирк и балаган... я не знаю, кто отвечает за оформление главной страницы, но прошу в кратчайшие сроки ее переделать...

18. --Ilaria - scrivimi 07:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

19.Oppose Imho this is an entirely unjustified and nonsential proposal, not even needing serious discussion. --Purodha Blissenbach 18:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

20. Oppose --Holder 12:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

21. Very Strong Oppose Why the fuck would someone wanna close this? I would follow User:Amdf's plan. Filper01 (Chat, My contribs) 12:09, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

22. Oppose per Millosh. This Wikipedia has activity, good articles (at least some), and has a community. Therefore, an easy keep. Cheers, Razorflame 07:17, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

23. Oppose per Razorflame --kuvaly

Consensus[edit]

What should be done?

  1. Menu to be switched to Cyrillic
  2. Stop contribution using Latin orthographies

Maybe it will be better to say as follows:

  1. There are to be two versions of menu (Cyrillic and Latin) with Cyrillic version set by default
  2. Not totally prohibiting contribution using Latin orthographies designate that Cyrillic is the main script and all articles should have Cyrillic versions (if someone wants to edit in Latin or not to edit at all, I think he should be allowed to contribute).

Don Alessandro 18:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It's still debatable which version of the Latin alphabet should be used. as I'd understood Albert opposes Yanalif-Zamanalif, whereas I'm stronly oppose any Turkish-ike alphabets. However, if automatic conversation would be created, multiple variant could be supported.
There was a such problem with asymmetric conversation for Crimean Tatar too. Is a decision of this problem found? --Untifler 20:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
One of the basic principles of Wikipedia is no original research. An orthography can be used here only if it has already been widely used outside of wiki. Zamanalif is a wide spread orthography and a de facto standard for Latin written Tatar in the internet, while Turkish-like orthographies are used practically nowhere. This can be simply checked with the help of Google.
As for Crimean Tatar: a decision is found (you can use JavaScript transliterator here and see scripts prepared for wiki here), but AlefZet who is helping us with the transliterator is temporary busy now, so the script is not implemented yet. Don Alessandro 11:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
No original research is a principle for content. Script is not original research, but original language development. Original language development can't be avoided in some languages. For example a language who never created non-literary text or even no text at all (that's most of all languages on he world) will experience development through creating a wikipedia in it in any case. Be aware, that a decision pro Cyrillic is original language development too. There are rivalling scripts for Tatar and any decision by us pro or contra one script is a statement. But the argument no original research doesn't apply here.
If there's absolutely no way of automatic conversion that's a bit of a dilemmatic situation. --::Slomox:: >< 22:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The problem of conversation is very complex for the Tatar language, but the solution could be found. Conversation should combine as simple, as in Serbian for Tatar and ancient loans, where certain algorithm could be applied (whereas it is not a simple letter replacement). But Russian and European words, loaned via Russian are written and pronounced like in Russian, being non-convertible using this standard algorithms. This qönwertor-effect (from Cyrillic конвертор which should be konvertor or konverter in Tatar, but using automatic converter it becomes qönwerter) could be avoided using database of words with non-standard conversation. However, the number of those words outnumbers standard Tatar words, so a great work should be done. However, I think all this words also present in Russian, so a database could be compiled from all Russian word to be found at Russian wiktionary and also converted automatically, however using Russian translit conversation system. After this only few words could be converted wrong. At least, words database may be open for systops to upload some new.For example, in recent years Tatar Language adopted word summit, and in it's Latin form it was written as in English, whereas it was pronounced sammit.--Untifler 06:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I also propose special template for names, which should be converted correctly. Names of Westerners are written as in their mother languages in Tatar Latin, as well as Oriental names which are written in Arabic, should be written in Arabic. Possibly, for Arabic a special database for frequently used names and words of Arab origin could be applied.--Untifler 06:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
As for language development, as it was said by Albert, the attempt of Latinization failed and Cyrillic is really used wider, especially after the language support was developed by Windows. But we really need an automatic conversion to Latin and Arabic as communities in Europe and china use it. And it still could be a font problem for some Western emigrant communities even using Cyrillic. However, I oppose the possibility of writing article in Latin just now. Multiscript templates or back conversation is more complex problem, so this possibility could be realized if required, but I think it does not required just now--Untifler 06:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
i think, generally speaking, "no original research" apply here. in case of tatar language it applies. because, tatar people here think or are like think decision of tatarstan academy, tatarstan and russia governments is legitimate.--Qdinar 10:51, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

How about giving a look to other language projects whose orthography is not globally unified - like Chinese. Chinese Wikipedia offers an auto-conversion with which users can choose their preferred orthography among five ways: used in PLC, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia or Singapole. Even anons can choose it by page. Can this technology be applied for Tatar language too? --Aphaia 05:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

why General discussion, Situation with minor languages, Multiple accounts sections are invisible? they are visible in edit page.--Qdinar 11:03, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


What should be done?

  • Absolutely no questions two versions of menu (Cyrillic and Latin) must be implemented.
  • Not prohibiting contribution using any type of tatar Latin and Cyrillic (Kazan Cyrill, Kriashan etc) scripts and regional dialects (Mishar, Agidel, Siberian etc). As mentioned in this page (see above comments by member Slomox) script can not be considered as original research. Tatar Latin Internet script must be naturally developed through creating a Tatar Wikipedia.
  • Cyrillic version of arcticle will be welcomed, but can not be mandatory. Significant numbers of Tatar Internet users abroad who knows only one basic latin script. We can not force those users to use unfamiliar script.
  • All articles (based on used script) must be tagged to 2 major categories Latin and Cyrillic in order to see monthly trends and real usage of Latin or Cyrillic scripts.
  • tt.wikipedia tatar speakers must develop more detail plan and carefully start refactoring process.
  • Expectations: We do not indulge in illusions that Cyrillic script will significantly increase number of articles. There also risk we can lost latin contributors. Coriander 06:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)