Requests for comment/ПешСай@mhr.wikipedia

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The following request for comments is closed. All issues seem to have been resolved. Ruslik 16:52, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Statement[edit]

My query relates to actions recently taken at the request of ПешСай@mhr.wikipedia, sysop at the Meadow Mari Wikipedia. The actions in question took place here:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Steward_requests/Checkuser#.D0.A1.D0.B0.D0.BD.D1.8E.D0.BD_.D0.92.D0.B0.D0.B4.D0.B8.D0.BA.40mhr.wikipedia

and here:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Steward_requests/Permissions#.D0.A1.D0.B0.D0.BD.D1.8E.D0.BD_.D0.92.D0.B0.D0.B4.D0.B8.D0.BA.40mhr.wikipedia

There is currently a vote happening at the Meadow Mari (mhr) Wikipedia to have the sysop - ПешСай@mhr.wikipedia - deprived of his position. He reported that sockpuppets were being used to vote against him. As far as I can tell, PeterSymonds compared the IP addresses, found a match, and nine users at the Meadow Mari Wikipedia were blocked, their votes presumably made invalid in the vote. As a further result, Санюн Вадик@mhr.wikipedia - the initiator of the vote to have ПешСай@mhr.wikipedia's sysop rights removed, lost his admin rights.

What ПешСай@mhr.wikipedia is perfectly aware of is that all accounts belong to individual physical persons (he would be, as these nine include some of the most active editors at the Meadow Mari Wikipedia) that do indeed occasionally share IP addresses as they all work in the same building - the House of the Press in Yoshkar-Ola, Republic of Mari El, Russian Federation. A vast chunk of Mari-language publications - in print, radio, television - are housed in this one building, making the external IP-address of this building one that would be shared by a huge chunk of the Mari journalists and authors.

ПешСай@mhr.wikipedia - who is also acquainted with the individuals in question in real life - can be seen addressing the individuals in question personally in the discussion in question. http://mhr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B9:%D0%A2%D3%B1%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0#.D0.9E.D0.B1_.D1.83.D1.87.D0.B0.D1.81.D1.82.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.BA.D0.B5_.D0.9F.D0.B5.D1.88.D0.A1.D0.B0.D0.B9. Unfortunately, this conversation is mostly in Russian, but he does in one sentence confirm this in English as well:

"Lifeway, I know you in real life, you couldn't talk English at all. Who is writing such texts for you?--ПешСай 14:16, 6 Пеледыш 2011 (UTC)"

I would offer translations of Russian quotations in which he addresses other users as well - making it clear that he not only knows that they are separate individuals, but that they are separate individuals he is acquainted with personally - but as a supporter of the vote to have him deprived of his rights, I would of course not be a neutral source. I can offer to highlight quotes in question, though, for them to be translated from Russian into English by a third party. And I can offer personal contacts to the blocked individuals that would confirm that they are indeed separate physical individuals to the Stewards.

The vote in question is being extremely difficult due to activities of this sort, and mediation "from above" would be desperately needed. As one of the first editors at the Mari Wikipedia during the Incubator stage (that was driven away by ПешСай@mhr.wikipedia's conduct as an administrator, but my account information will confirm this - User:JBradley), I can offer to send a steward that might review the situation an overview of this sad tale from its inception till today. I'm hoping to find time to write it up this account in the evening. The "other side" would of course have the same right.

Marivienna 16:48, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Vasli[edit]

Dear admins: I disagree with your decision regarding the cancellation of admin rights of Санюн Вадик and the blocking and cancellation of user rights by ПешСай of nine other users. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Steward_requests/Permissions#.D0.A1.D0.B0.D0.BD.D1.8E.D0.BD_.D0.92.D0.B0.D0.B4.D0.B8.D0.BA.40mhr.wikipedia

ПешСай knows very well that most of the users that he cancelled the user rights of are real persons, whom he knows in person. Personally, I know six of the users who had their rights cancelled: Valerik (Valery Ocheev), Санюн Вадик (Vadim Protasov), Maikl20021 (Mikhail Pirogov), Lifeway (Andrey Chemyshev), Игорь Таныгин (Igor Tanygin), and Эсметр (Sergey Karpov).

Their IP numbers coincide simply because they work in one and the same organisation -- Mari El Radio. I suspect that other people who have been depirived of their user rights may have been involved with Mari El Radio as well.

As what comes to ПешСай's knowledge of the Mari language, he actually cannot compose one single gramatically correct sentence in Mari; here is one example: http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:%D0%A1%D0%B0%D0%B9

In fact, he has received very low scores on Mari. His battle against "Russisms" is without logic and contrary to Mari orthography and laws of linguistics.

If you look at the vote on cancelling his admin rights, which he annulled, you will see that not one Mari or person who speaks Mari supported him. ПешСай has, in effect, driven out Maris and people with good command of the Mari language from the Mari Wikipedia.

My User on the Mari Wikipedia: http://mhr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%B5:Vasli

Vasli 17:44, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Lifeway[edit]

Здравствуйте. Я пользователь в марийской википедии (mhr) - lifeway. Странная ситуация сложилась в нашей википедии. Ситуация вполне серьёзная, админ ПешСай настаивает на языковой реформе, при этом он сам очень поверхностно знает марийский язык (отвратительно). Мы - носители языка категорически против такой языковой реформы, нам это непреемлемо. Для того, чтобы остановить безобразия не разбирающегося в марийском языке админа ПешСай, мы начали голосование. Он хитростью сумел убедить стюардов, что была фальсификация. Теперь мы заблокированы, нас таких - 10 человек. Очевидно, такое поведение может убить проект и не входит в права и полномочия администратора.--Lifeway 18:55, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

English translation: Hello. I'm a user at the Mari Wikipedia (mhr) - lifeway. A strange situation is happening in our Wiki. It's quite a serious situation - the administrator insists on implemention his own language reforms, while his understanding of the language is superficial at best. We - the native speakers of this language - are categorically opposed to his reforms, they are unacceptable to us. To stop this mistreatment of our language, we started the vote to deprive the admin PeshSay of his admin rights. He cunningly managed to convince the stewards that this vote was fake. Now, 10 of us are blocked. Obviously, behaviour of this sort could kill the project, he has overstepped his rights and powers as an administrator. Marivienna 12:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Ruslik[edit]

As far as checkuser is concerned all those users are indistinguishable from each other—they work from the same network and the same computers. Even if (as you are claiming) they are physically different persons, they are still meatpuppets as they usually appeared when Санюн Вадик needed their support. (See Игорь Таныгин, Nata, Cseremisz Elian, Valerik <=> Валерик, ПешОсал <=> Maikl20021). Your (Lifeway's) case is somewhat different but as far as checkuser is concerned you are still very similar to the above mentioned users. I will read more discussions in mhrwiki tomorrow. Ruslik 19:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

For the sake of consistency, however, it must be said that the same applies to the two valid votes in support of PeshSaj at this point (the other two come from users that registered after the voting started) - Uzer:Azimbaj is a close personal friend of user PeshSaj, and User:Kmoksy self-admittedly does not know the Russian and Mari languages - his knowledge of the given situation can thus only come from external sources. In a speaker community as small as the Mari community, such connections are unfortunately inevitable, and I don't know if an unarbitrary measure would exist to decide who "counts" or not. Marivienna 19:52, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Although Wikimedia strongly discourages vote, if vote is inevitable I would advice mhr.wp (in case you would be able to) to establish policy that user who votes must at least meet the auto-confirm level or amend with higher edit count. Making canvassing/meatpuppetry less effective. The backfire of this is of course encouraging some user who is mindful of this rule starts creating more sockpuppets which merely passes the voting threshold. In the end it would be best to renounce vote altogether, especially when the mhr community grows bigger. -- Sameboat (talk) 08:59, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Denis Sacharnych[edit]

Dear friends, I am an administrator of the Udmurt wiki (udm:User:Denis). I got to know that some users of the Meadow Mari wiki, namely mhr:User:Cseremisz_Elian, mhr:User:Санюн_Вадик, mhr:User:Maikl20021, mhr:User:Lifeway , mhr:User:Игорь_Таныгин and some others were accused in sock puppetry. I'd make strong protest against this crimination. I got acquainted with mhr:User:Cseremisz_Elian (as Erik Yuzykain) and mhr:User:Lifeway (as Andrey Chemyshev) long ago through correspondence. On April, 2011, I have visited Yoshkar-Ola (the capital of the Mari El Republic, where live all of the people mentioned above), and got to know mhr:User:Cseremisz_Elian, mhr:User:Санюн_Вадик (as Vadim Protasov), mhr:User:Maikl20021 (as Mikhail Pirogov), and mhr:User:Lifeway personally. Being wikipedians, we have, of course, many times talked about our work in the Udmurt and Meadow Mari wikis - that is why I can say that I very good know the true identities of mhr:User:Cseremisz_Elian, mhr:User:Санюн_Вадик , mhr:User:Maikl20021, and mhr:User:Lifeway. So, these are different persons, not sockpuppets. The confusion during user checking has occured, without any doubt, because all IPs in the Mari El Radio's local network are masked with one and the same external IP. I suggest to reconsider all of the decisions related with this unhappy user checking (sock puppetry accusation, admin status deletion). --Denis Sacharnych 20:07, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Vasli[edit]

Practically no Maris left on Mari Wikipedia (VIDEO) http://mariuveren.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/practically-no-maris-left-on-mari-wikipedia/ Vasli 00:00, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Medeyko[edit]

I'm director of Wikimedia Russia (Mari El Republic is a part of Russia). We dealt with mhr:User:Санюн_Вадик (Sanyn Vadik, real name: Vadim Protasov), who is awarded with a Literature Grant from Wikimedia Russia.

I suppose that comment from Denis Sacharnych is insightful. I trust him and his vision, as I work with him for many years in relation to needs of Wikipedia editions in minor languages of Russia.

I have also thoroughly read the respective conversations and elections. From my point of view, ПешСай (PeshSay, real name: Vyacheslav Kileev) actions are not fully justified. The almost unanimous voting is not falcified - there are indeed several active users who work through the same NAT of Radio Mari El. However, it's possible that some of the users may be classified as puppets (either sockpuppets of meatpuppets); however there's no too much difference if there is 5-1 count or 9-1. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 02:42, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Vladimir. I also have read the discussion on mhr:Википедий:Тӱшка (but it was quite difficult for me because the discussion is full of very immoderate emotions), and I should say that I am agree with your conclusion. The vote's result seems to be pretty much reliable. Only few users from both sides are suspicious-looking, and if we do not take into account their votes, the result remains the same. --Denis Sacharnych 17:18, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Cseremisz Elian[edit]

It is an absurd situation, when one boor named "user ПешСай " who does not know Mari language (has been studying it for only 2 years) does not accept any discussion or criticism, ideas or suggestions from collegues, who knows language from childhood and are being promoting it for many years, DECIDES to rule and dictate. Nobody among us have doubt that ПешСай as an activist and patriot has made very much for the development of Mari Wikipedia. Nobody!!! There are many comments on it in discussions (in Russian or Mari, unfortunately). But we cannot accept rudeness to us and primitive attitude to Mari language on behalf of him. Is it normal for Wikipedia administrator to behave as a boor?

About incrimination to Санюн Вадик of unauthorized use of IP: In my workplace there are 2 person are in Wiki. Our institution has only one IP for all workplaces. Санюн Вадик@mhr.wikipedia also works in place, where they use only one IP for hundreds of users. I know that there are about at least 10 Wikipedia activiststs.

And now about Санюн Вадик himself. He is the one of best moderators of the Mari El Radio. This Radio broadcasts in Mari language and has 10000-15000 listeners every day. Санюн Вадик has perfect skills in Mari. He was the first who rised against brutal violation of Mari language rules on behalf of ПешСай. How can we accept writing КОМПУЧЫР while there is accepted КОМПЬЮТЕР (see dict.marlamuter.ru for “computer”), ЯМДЫЛЫК instead of КЫШКАР (same dictionary collection for “остов, костяк”) ((((and there are many other examples))). ПешСай brutally edites all of us accordingly to his understanding of Mari language. He violates one of the principal rules: to be free in opinion and to implement the right to help people to get information in own language. Now we initiated the company to involve students of our regional University to develope the Mari Wikipedia. How can we do that if they in reality use/study another Mari language then ПешСай dictates here?

Dear Stewards, the dicision is up to you. But you have to be aware of our opinion. Cseremisz Elian

Question. Is mhr:User:Юзыкайн Эрик associated with you? Ruslik 19:45, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Answer Yes, Юзыкайн Эрик is my account. I created it at that legendary morning after I discovered that ПешСай unconsciously and roughly blocked users and also my Cseremisz_Elian. Actually my idea of that morning was not to make war, but to edit articles which I left a day before (some terms needed to be discussed with specialist-musician). And when I found such absurd situation, when one boor, who actually personally knows most of us, lies insolencely, I was not able to manage my emotions. Now I am aware of nonsense of my action. But anyway I ask to take in account 1) I acted under influence of emotions; 2) my aim was not to influence the voting (it was not going on at that moment being declared illegal, wasn’t it?), but my aim was to express my protest to that absurd situation; 3) I intentionally used my real name Эрик Юзыкайн, because did not want to mislead people. Cseremisz Elian

Comment from Игорь Таныгин[edit]

Меня зовут Игорь Таныгин, я учусь на 2-ом курсе Марийского государственного университета и одновременно являюсь сотрудником Марий Эл Радио. У меня нет дома компьютера, поэтому возможность выходить в интернет у меня есть только на Марий Эл Радио. Недавно (месяца три назад примерно) Санюн Вадик показал мне марийскую википедию. Я так зарегистрировался под именем Игорь Таныгин. Я начал по-тихонечку разбираться, пытаться писать статьи на марийском языке. Это здорово, что у нас есть такая википедия. Но, с недавних пор я не могу писать свои статьи. Потом мне как объяснили, что я заблокирован. Почему? Объясните мне. Я не участвовал в голосовании против ПешСай. Разблокируйте меня, я хочу писать свои статьи на марийском языке.--Игорь Таныгин 11:57, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

English translation: My name is Igor Tanygin, I'm a second-year student at Mari State University and at the same time am an employee at Mari El Radio. I do not have a computer at home, thus my only possibility to go online is at Mari El Radio. Recently (roughly three months ago), Sanyun Vadik showed me the Mari Wikipedia. I registered under the name "Игорь Таныгин". I settled in and started writing articles in Mari. It's great that we have this kind of Wikipedia. But, recently, I could not write any articles anymore. I was told that I had been blocked. Why? Please explain this to me. I did not even participate in the vote against PeshSay. Unblock me, I want to continue writing articles in the Mari language. Marivienna 12:05, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
A что вы можите сказать по поводу mhr:User:Валерик? Ruslik 19:33, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
I have been told that both accounts belong to the same person, Valery Ocheev. He registered the second account when he, for an unknown reason, could not log in with his primary account - his password was not being accepted. An issue that probably should be resolved at some point, but as only one of these accounts participated in the vote and as there was no attempt at masking identities here -- the two names are, after all, exact transcriptions of one another -- I don't personally believe it's an issue requring penal measures. (And as the old user account was not working anyway, its blockage is a moot point) Marivienna 22:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Marivienna[edit]

There is still time for the stewards to decide which votes should count and which ones should not - there is no great rush here. I would however request the speedy reversial of the decision to block these 10 users, and the prospect of anyone else with the same IP address being subject to the same treatment. This decision is affecting both active users in the Mari Wikipedia that are demonstratably individual users (Санюн Вадик - 2nd in total number of edits at Mari Wikipedia; Lifeway - 6th in total number of edits), less active users that have not been involved in this vote in any way (Игорь Таныгин), and potentially a majority of all Mari journalists and authors, as pretty much the whole Mari publishing industry is in this one building (I do not know the technical details - if all enterprises in this building are behind the same router or not, and thus share the same external IP address). Who could be considered a meatpuppet in the context of the vote can be discussed later, but I implore you to revoke these two decision that were based on demonstratably false information provided to you by ПешСай, and that are crippling the Meadow Mari Wikipedia completely right now. Marivienna 12:22, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Maikl20021[edit]

Я являюсь Системным Администратором Марий Эл Радио, Марий Эл ТВ, Пульс Радио, Блиц ФМ, 3 канал, РенТв Йошкар-Ола В связи со всей этой шумихой позвольте прояснить технические особенности выхода в интернет вышеуказанных организаций. Все рабочие станции вышеперечисленных организаций являются клиентами общего локального домена trc.local. Постоянно работающих компьютеров, пользующихся интернетом в домене от 70 до 80 штук, плюс личные ноутбуки и прочее гаджеты. Пользователей - более 100 человек. Наша сеть имеет свой прокси сервер, раздающий интернет внутри сети, обеспечивая различный уровень доступа в наружнюю сеть. Основным провайдером у нас является "РОЙЛКОМ", у которого мы имеем выделенный ip адрес: 217.22.172.60. Кроме него есть резервные каналы на случай каких-либо сбоев. Это: Волгателеком (Динамический ip 77.40.*.*), ДомРу и спутниковый интернет. Необходимо отметить, что сбои бывают очень редко, и процентов на 98 по времени наш внешний ip остается неизменным (217.22.172.60). Кроме всего, пользователи не привязаны к отдельным компьютерам. Структура сети позволяет работать определенному пользователю за любым свободным компьютером. С уважением, Михаил Пирогов, Системный Администратор Марий Эл Радио, Марий Эл ТВ, Пульс Радио, Блиц ФМ, 3 канал, РенТв Йошкар-Ола, инженер Марий Эл Радио, программист Театра Юного Зрителя (ТЮЗ). --Maikl20021 14:25, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

English translation: I am the system administrator at Mari El Radio, Mari El TV, Pulse Radio, Blitz FM, Channel 3, RenTv Yoshkar-Ola, and in connection with this whole hype, I would like to clarify the technical features of the Internet connection of the above organizations. All work stations of the organizations above are clients to the local domain trc.local. There are constantly 70-80 computers connected to the Internet through this domain, plus laptops and other gadgets. More than 100 people use these devices. Our network has a proxy server distributing Internet access to all computers within the network, allowing different levels of access to the outside network. The main provider is a "ROILCOM" uplink station, which has the IP address 217.22.172.60. In addition, we have a backup channel in the case failures: Volgatelecom (dynamic IP 77.40.*.*), DomRu and a satellite Internet connection. It should be noted that failures only occur rarely, 98% of the time all our users use the same external IP address (217.22.172.60).
Furthermore, users aren't tied to individual computers. The network is built up in a way that allows users to work from any free computers.
Sincerely, Mikhail Pirogov, system administrator of Mari El Radio, Mari El TV, Rulse Radio, Blitz FM, Channel 3, RenTV Yoshkar-Ola, technician at Mari El Radio, programmer at the theater of the youth. Marivienna 14:42, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Questions. Do you use 188.187.0.0/16 range? Does mhr:User:Azimbaj also work at Mari El Radio? Who is mhr:User:ПешОсал? Is not it your second account? Ruslik 19:21, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Marivienna[edit]

To put the figures above in context: We are talking about an IP address shared by 100 journalists and authors, in a speaker community that at best has 600,000 speakers. Prophilactically banning all of these from editing Wikipedia would be mathematically equivalent to banning the 300,000 English-language journalists and authors from editing the English Wikipedia at once. Marivienna 14:48, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Vasli[edit]

The following Mari-language video about the Mari Wikipedia, shown on Mari TV in 2009, shows Mikhail Pirogov/Михаил Пирогов aka Maikl20021 talking about the project, mentioning Vyacheslav (Slava) Kileev (1:00) aka ПешСай and Andrey Chemyshev aka Lifeway (1:25): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tknp09tFlVI

The following video, from the same year, shows Andrey Chemyshev/Lifeway talk about his collaborative work with Vyacheslav (Slava) Kileev/ПешСай (0:38): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMnCX64_afI&NR

These videos again demonstrate the personal acquaintance between the individuals in question, and that Vyacheslav Kileev, in order to reach his own selfish goals, provided the stewards with obviously false information when requesting their accounts to be blocked for being sockpuppets. Can Wikipedia afford having an admin that resorts to such means?

Vasli 15:53, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from Санюн Вадик[edit]

Я являлся администратором Марийской Википедии. Участник ПешСай регулярно грозил мне и коллегам по Википедии блокировкой за некоторые законные действия. Не желая начинать войну администраторов, я придерживался либеральных позиций. Но развитие проекта требовало прихода новых участников, и я рекомендовал участие в проекте знакомым журналистам, учёным, программистам. Большинство из них отказывалось работать в проекте, администратором которого был человек, не знающий марийского языка на должном уровне (ПешСай). Поэтому я инициировал голосование по лишению Участника ПешСай по лишению его администраторских полномочий. Он прекрасно знает лично меня, всех моих коллег, мы неоднократно виделись с ним в реальной жизни. Поэтому можно утверждать, что он намеренно ввел в заблуждение стюардов, написав, что я создал несколько фейковых страниц. Совпадение IP адресов обусловлено тем, что мы с коллегами большую часть времени проводим в редакции "Марий Эл Радио", где хранятся уникальные источники по истории, культуре, библиографии марийского края и марийского народа. Уважаемые стюарды, я и мои коллеги готовы в любое время открыть свои идентификационные данные, если это понадобится. Добавлю, что на Русской Википедии старый аккаунт Участника ПешСай (ru:User:Менязовут)заблокирован за вандализм и нарушение этики, второй аккаунт неоднократно уже подвергался блокировке. Участник Санюн Вадик имеет там статус автопатрулируемого. Прошу вас прислушаться к решению сообщества Марийской Википедии. И, если можно, восстановить мой статус администратора на этом проекте. --Санюн Вадик 17:02, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

English translation: I was an administrator at the Mari Wikipedia. The user PeshSay threatened me and colleagues with blocks for legitimate actions on a regular basis. Not wanting to start a war between administrators, I took a liberal position. But for this project to develop, it would need new users, so I suggested to a number of journalists, scientists and programmers known to me to participate in the project. Most of them refused to work when the project's administrator (PeshSay) didn't know the Mari language to a sufficient extent. Eventually I initiated the vote to deprive the user PeshSay of his administrator privileges. He knows me and my colleagues quite well in real life, we have met many times. So one really could say that he deliberately mislead the stewards by telling them that I had created several fake accounts. The fact that the IP addresses match up is due to the amount of time my colleagues spend in the editorial offices of Mari El Radio, which is home to unique sources on the history and culture of the Mari lands and the Mari nation. Dear stewards, my colleagues and I are all willing to reveal our identities, if necessary. I would also like to add that the old account of PeshSay's at the Russian Wikipedia (ru:User:Менязовут) is blocked for vandalism and ethical breaches, his second account has been repeatedly blocked as well. The user Санюн Вадик there, on the other hand, is autopatrolled. Please take this into consideration in decisions regarding the Mari Wikipedia community. And, if possible, please restore my status as an administrator in that project. Marivienna 00:46, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Just a brief clarification about ПешСай's blocks. Here are sysop's comments about these blocks. The main reason for block were continued attempts to push interwiki to Mari to the main page of Russian Wikipedia, the old account was blocked for writing a comment during main account's block (same diff for clarification). There was no block for vandalism or something like that. I don't think that these blocks really change something in the user's biography (Note: I haven't watched all the history on Mari Wikipedia, so I don't have any exact opinion about these users' actions there) — NickK 20:15, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from M7 (M/) and further desysop[edit]

First of all, I'd like to thank everybody here for your patience, I can assure that the situation on mhr.wiki is going to be fully re-examined, and also necessary administrative actions will be taken.

I think that blocks affecting old users will be lifted in a couple of days (a Checkuser is already working on this issue) and - as a result of the conflict that arose on wiki, with meatpuppet suspects and doubtful elections - mhr.wiki will be temporarily without sysops (see other CU results). Please take all time to discuss with all the involved parts and point of views, you need to develop a collaborative community before electing sysops again.

Ciao, M/ 20:03, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment 2 from Ruslik0[edit]

I unblocked the following users, who are identified by their real name:

Valerik (Valery Ocheev), Санюн Вадик (Vadim Protasov), Maikl20021 (Mikhail Pirogov), Lifeway (Andrey Chemyshev), Игорь Таныгин (Igor Tanygin), and Эсметр (Sergey Karpov)

Ruslik 09:44, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I unblocked Cseremisz Elian and blocked his sock Юзыкайн Эрик. Ruslik 11:52, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment from ПешСай[edit]

First of all, I would like to tell, that the creation time of this wiki-account was taken into account. So, the account that were created 1-2 days before starting the voting were blocked forever. Other accounts that were registered early were blocked for 3 days. And Санюн Вадик was blocked for 7 days. Mary of this users are working in the same organization, and set near each other, so it is difficult to determine who is real wikipedia user and who has registered only for voting. It is alos should be mentioned that the user Cseremisz Elian(and his virtual second account Юзыкайн Эрик) is hating me in real life and he is the supervisor in Mari El Radio, and all other real accounts (if they are real indeed) are his subordinates. He could use pressure in real life on other users as they are working on him. So, it is not strange, that they all are voting against me without any constructive opinions. Theirs opinions sounds very similar. I don't wont to tell bad words about Санюн Вадик, as he made great contribution to wikipedia, but he always tries to insert Russifications. Here it should be mentioned, that Mari El Radio is the governmental organization, and the situation with Mari language in governmental organizations in Russia is very difficult, you could often hear "Кленовый Гораште" (on the Maple Hill), but Кленовый - is the Russian word that translate to Mari as ваштар[1] and the Гораште (at the hill) is Russian word too. In Mari language there is word курык[2]. I suppose Санюн Вадик is good as journalist, and editor in wikipedia, but he don't knows the rules of Wikipedia. He knows my mobile phone, but he hadn't phone me, but he could. I suppose, that his initiation of creating this election was made with the pressure from Erik Yuzykain (Cseremisz Elian and Юзыкайн Эрик).--ПешСай 09:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Moreover it should be mentioned, that many of this accounts haven't made any significant edits. They don't try to edit articles or discuss. Theirs only one aim is to remove me from admins. I'm Mari, my mother is Mari and my father is Mari, I have spoke with them on Mari from the childhood. My grandmas and grandpas are also Maris. And I'm not working in any governmental organization. If I make mistake why then this users haven't edited me? I suppose that after removing my administrator rights, most of this account wouldn't edit articles too. I have been in Mari El Radio many times, I have asked them to participate in wikipedia project for two years, but they haven't came to wikipedia and haven't edited much, except Санюн Вадик (he periodically edited Wikipedia).--ПешСай 09:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Some of the users above said that I am implementing my own language reform. But it is not true. It is not e reform. All words could be found in real books. And I and other users are often referring to this books. In all cases all controversial decisions are made upon discussion. And as often happens Санюн Вадик couldn't provide any reasonable sources to support his opinions. We always tell him: what relies to your opinion, what sources could you provide. And often he gives us an answer: it should be like this and that is all.--ПешСай 09:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Another situation. User Maikl20021 have inserted huge amount of copyrighted material from other site (text is the same without any wikification or editing). I have told him via ICQ that it is the violation of Wikipedia rules. I provided him with link to this rules(in Russian Wikipedia) and I gave him an advice how to be and what he can do to not to violate the rules. I have explained him all three possible solutions, but he did nothing. I haven't blocked him as a vandal even after his second such insertion, but I have made an warning. Now they say that I'm frightening someone. I don't think that this is frighting, this is only a warning about violated rules. That is why, I suppose, he have registered a second account (ПешОсал), Осал means evil, (compare my account name - ПешСай). In wikipedia I am since 2008 year (firstly in Russian with account Менязовут, and after creation of MariWiki with account ПешСай. It should be noted that Менязовут is not my virtual, and it is shown in my page), may be the oldest and the experienced wikipedian among all other MariWiki users.--ПешСай 09:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Of course, Mari El Radio as an organization can easily contact with Wikipedia Russia. Mari El Radio with Erik Yuzykain have holded an conference in Yoshkar-Ola, where they have told about Mari Wikipedia, but they haven't invited me as an administrator. I could not even get to this conference, because the they have passed only those who had a special badge.--ПешСай 09:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

And one additional moment that should be taken into account, that even the account Cseremisz Elian has been blocked Erik Yuzykain had cheated another account Юзыкайн Эрик and have voted once again. And once again he had violated the rules.--ПешСай 09:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I suppose it is not reasonable to leave Санюн Вадик as only one administrator on Mari Wikipedia, if you would grant him admin rights. There should be at least two - for plurality. I don't suppose that I have violated the rules of Wikipedia or that I have used the admin rights in the selfish interests, as someone have told above.--ПешСай 09:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Answer What do you mean under the term "supervisor"? I work in Ministry for cultural and ethnic affairs? You mean that I dictated to people how to vote? Funny. I am novice in Wikipedia, am not familiar yet with many its procedures. Your war with Санюн Вадик began mach earlier then I became full user here. Cseremisz Elian

Comment from Marivienna[edit]

Apologies for the double-post. I alread posted a variant of this over at the Mari Wikipedia, but thought it was relevant here too.

I wonder if we're having a bit of a too many cooks situation here. Over at the Mari Wikipedia, a discussion is already going on about the election of (a) new admin(s), and what the voting rules will be -- see here. However, I'm reading the discussion here as follows:

  • Given his conduct, ПешСай cannot expect to keep his sysop privileges - certainly not by default.
  • Given the absence of a cooperative community, it'd be hard to justify giving these same rights to someone else before some changes have happened (or giving them to someone else in addition before we've agreed on some principles).

Which, in essence, means that there should currently not be two admins/sysops, but zero. Which makes discussions on this election/election rules premature - we first need to determine what we can do to make the community work better.

My thoughts are as follows: It can no longer be the case in the Mari Wikipedia that the same person makes and enforces the rules. We desperately need some separation of powers, we desperately need the people that set the rules to have some sort of credibility. So I suggest two branches of government here (we can skip the third one - the analogy to democracy does not have to be perfect). In addition to having a sysop, I propose having an advisory council for language matters. This council would consist of three members who must:

  • have some sort of credibility regarding language skills
  • in spite of their competencies not consider their own thoughts the highest authority, and have some common sense regarding language cultivation
  • be as independent from one another as is possible, given the size of the speaker community

The members of this council would not have to be the most active editors at the Mari Wikipedia - in fact, it might be better if they were not, as the idea would not be for these individuals to yield any power. They certainly could not have any admin rights of any sort. They'd serve as advisors that'd be consulted whenever a language issue cannot be resolved between the users (exactly the kind of situation which started this mess in the first place). If users disagree if word X or word Y should be used to denote a certain term, this matter would be put in front of the council. If 2 or more members of the council support word X, word X is to be used - even if the sysop doesn't like it.

If the sysop fails to submit to the council, and attempts to enforce his own thoughts as the law, the language council would report this to the stewards, and we'd revert back to sysoplessness mentioned in this discussion here.

So I'm suggesting three steps to bring the Mari Wikipedia into a running condition:

  • Step 1: A "constitution" is drafted/"approved" in which the new rules are established.
  • Step 2: A language council is elected.
  • Step 3: A sysop is elected.

Thoughts? Marivienna 23:06, 9 June 2011 (UTC) (JBradley in Mari Wiki/Incubator)

Comment from Vasli[edit]

ПешСай, вообще-то «Марий Эл Радио» - единственное из СМИ Марий Эл, которое хоть каким-то образом последовательно официально продвигало неологизмы реально в жизнь. И если часть неологизмов сейчас попала в новый орфографический словарь (2011) то это благодаря именно Эрику Юзыкайну. Я знаю насколько консервативны наши ученые-языковеды в Марий Эл, работники радио, ТВ, газет и журналов. Если Эрик имеет какое-то даже отношение к «Марий Эл Радио» он никак не может указать работающим там людям как говорить. ПешСай, у тебя личный конфликт с Эриком, ты мстишь ему и все это переносишь в Википедию. Все мы устали от тебя не из-за твоей «прогрессивности», а из-за твоей ужасной конфликтности, неуважения к человеку, ты помнишь, как обзывал в Фейсбуке и на моем сайте участников Википедии? Или тебе напомнить? Ты не говорил в детство по-марийски, почему постоянно врешь? Дело даже не в этом, ты предлагаешь абсурдную войну с «русицизмами», например заменить слово «музык» словом «сем». Сем – значит мелодия, а не музыка и не русициазм, а интернационализм... Vasli 23:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

English translation: PeshSay, as a matter of fact, "Mari El Radio" is the only media in Mari which consistently officially promotes the usage of neologisms in real life. And if neologisms made it into the new orthographical dictionary (2011), credit for this goes to Erik Yuzykain. I know how conservative linugists and people working in radio, TV, newspapers and magazines are in Mari El. If Erik is in some manner even connected to Mari El Radio, it is certainly not in a manner that would allow him to tell people working there what to say. PeshSay, you have a personal conflict with Erik, you're seeking revenge, and all of this is carrying over to Wikipedia. We're not tired of you due to your "progressiveness", but due to how terribly quarrelsome you are and how little respect you pay people. Do you remember the names you called Wikipedia users on facebook and on my website?
You did not speak Mari in childhood, why are you constantly lying? And it's not even that, you are taking your war against "russicisms" into absurdity, like when replacing the word "muzyk" [music] with the word "sem". "Sem" means melody, and not music, and "muzyk" isn't a russian word but an internationalism. Marivienna 00:30, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Conclusion[edit]

I asked Vladimir Medeyko to write the precise terms here and at the Meadow Mari Wikipedia in Russian and English. I will give temporary admin permissions to the four listed contributors: Amdf, Denis Sacharnych, JBradley and DrBug. --Millosh 11:04, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Русский перевод располагается ниже

According to the poll of the Meadow Wikipedia community (http://mhr.wikipedia.org/?oldid=61849), the decision is following:

Meadow Mari community voted in favor of having temporary admins. In order to maintain stability, the community approves temporary administrators, and meanwhile shall comfortably solve the emerged problems, shall discuss rules of the project and shall elect the permanent administrators.

The terms are following:

  • Temporary admins for 6 months shall be: Amdf, Denis Sacharnych, JBradley and DrBug.
  • Temporary admins shall not be "temporary managers", but rather "technicians" and "assistats". They shall follow will of the community, using the experience gathered by numerous Wikimedia projects in various languages. They shall be able to do the following:
    • To prevent and remove vandalism at their own discretion. Vandalism is defined as intentional edits that clearly harm the project. Assertion of a point of view is not a vandalism, no matter if the point of view is not a popular one.
    • To delete/restore pages, to block/unblock users upon request of the community. How these request should look like is up to the community to decide.
    • To share their experience of activities in other projects, to recommend standard approaches during discussions, to describe their advantages and drawbacks. However, it's up to the community to decide which approaches to adopt.
  • Community and temporary admins should normalize the situation. When the situation would be normalized, community would choose their own admins.
  • Community and temporary admins shall write the report about the progress at Meta during the 6th month.


English translation may be found above.

Луго-марийское сообщество проголосовало в пользу назначения временных администраторов (http://mhr.wikipedia.org/?oldid=61849). Чтобы обеспечить стабильность, сообщество утверждает временных администраторов, а тем временем будет спокойно разрешать возникшие проблемы, обсуждать правила проекта и выбирать постоянных администраторов.

Условия следующие:

  • Временными администраторами в течение 6 месяцев будут: Amdf, Denis Sacharnych, JBradley and DrBug.
  • Временные администраторы не будут "временными управляющими", но скорее - "техниками" и "ассистентами". Они будут выполнять волю сообщества, используя опыт, накопленный множеством проектов Викимедиа на различных языках. Они смогут делать следующее:
    • Самостоятельно предотвращать вандализм и устранять его последствия. Под вандализмом понимаются намеренные явно вредящие проекту правки. Отстаивание своей позиции вандализмом не является, даже если эта позиция непопулярна.
    • Удалять/восстанавливать страницы, блокировать/разблокировать участников по запросу со стороны сообщества. Как должны выглядеть эти запросы - также должно установить само сообщество.
    • Делиться с сообществом своим опытом работы в других проектах, рекомендовать в обсуждениях стандартные выработанные подходы, рассказывать об их преимуществах и подводных камнях. При этом решение о том, какие подходы использовать принимает сообщество.
  • Сообщество и временные администраторы должны нормализовать ситуацию. Когда ситуация нормализуется, сообщество должно избрать своих собственных администраторов.
  • Сообщество и временные администраторы должны будут написать отчёт на Мете о развитии ситуации в течение 6 месяцев.

Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 04:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)