Requests for comment/Permanently blocked in WP in Aragonese, without right to defense, for requesting the deletion of insulting expressions

This is a subpage; for more information, see the Requests for comments page.

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Two years ago I expressed in WP in Aragonese my opposition to the existence in that wiki of a category of non-free images that its author granted to be used only in WP in Aragonese. I argued that it was a kind of nationalist license (based on the language) and therefore contrary to the humanist (i.e. universalist) principles of Wikipedia. Four administrators objected to my claim, in some case incurring in etiquette faults. I did not insist.

A few days ago, I reread the intervention of the sysop Cembo123 on that discussion (22:40 23 July 2021): "let me (…) apart from your mental ruminations and paranoias of confabulations and conspiracies» (diff), and I felt it was offensive. So, I requested on the sysops' board that, since these expressions attributed a mental disorder to me, they were insulting, so that a) they should be deleted and b) the author be reprimanded.

Surprisingly, the reaction to my request has been that the sysop Lazaro d'Aragón has blocked me forever on WP:AN on the grounds of "disruptive behavior" (block #2280). He does not base his decision on my request that the insults be deleted, but on a false reason. He states a) that two years later I insist on not understanding that the use of those images is not nationalistic (in my request I did not even mention them) and b) that this is my only contribution to WP in Aragonese (is not the only one and, even if it were, it is a legitimate intervention). He also insults me: “we have no time to waste with your paranoia, as perfectly described by Cembo” (diff), the sysop I was accusing.

For his part, the sysop Cembo123, has also repeated his insults, saying that the mention to my mental health «for you could be an insult, but it could be (...) a diagnosis", and “your actions and comments on wikipedia could be due more to a delirium than to a paranoia” (diff).

Now, when I want to submit allegations to the block, I am told that my right to defense consists only in that I can send an email to the administrator who has blocked me or to another administrator. However, I cannot do so because the block includes the physical impossibility to send any e-mail to any user.

My conclusions are: 1) Two administrators have severely insulted me for an ideological disagreement (the consideration of a category of non-free images). 2) I have been blocked using an excuse (asking to delete an insult does not mean reactivating the controversy, which was legitimate anyway). 3) I am undemocratically denied the right of defense. 4) Wikipedia cannot allow one of its projects (WP:AN) to be managed in an undemocratic way.

Fellow Wikipedians, what can I do to restore the proper functioning of Wikipedia in this particular case (freedom of expression and respect), and my rights as a rules-compliant editor? Thanks. Pompilos (talk) 18:25, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

As I sysop and bureaucrat with almost 20 years of experience in the Aragonese Wikipedia (WP:AN), more of them working together with Cembo123 and Lazaro d'Aragon, I strongly support them and their positions here. About the four points comment as conclusions by Pompilos, my opinions are: 1) I haven't found any (severe?) insult to him, my colleagues have only stated that Pompilos is moved by a nationalistic anti-aragonese sentiment, without any other reason that he is been discriminate because he cannot understanding our language. This is a nonsense, who can really understand all the languages in the whole world? 2) He has been correctly blocked, and I support also this blocking, because he is only creating a disruptive atmosphere, trying to cause friction between the members of our community, accusing us of things, based only on its political thoughts and taking us a lot of our values time discussing about things that have been voted and approved by the community. 3) He had the possibility to defend himself and to give his opinion. What is not permitted is to try to impose a single opinion against the democratical mind of the whole community, even more when Pompilos is a user external to the community, whose almost only contributions are the discussions above. 4) The Aragonese Wikipedia is a democratic community that have been working good during the last 20 years. In this specific case we have images policies voted and approved for the whole community that comply the general rules of Wikimedia and not different from the policies that could be found in other versions like WP:EN, to give an example.

To summarize: I will give first of all my total support to my two colleagues, unfairly blamed and accused here. I would point here and remark again that the WP:AN is a good working democratic community, based on a hard work and love in other to preserve the universal knowledge in our small, but not less important language. Then I request this topic to be closed and I ask the user Pompilos to stop the interference to our job and to our small community. --Willtron (talk) 06:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

(Spanish) Voy a escribir en español (no hablo inglés, sólo español, francés, aragonés y catalán) para exponer lo que ha sucedido con el usuario Pompilos. Mi primer contacto con dicho usuario se produce a raíz de su exigencia de que "se llame al orden" a otro administrador del proyecto por una edición de hace dos años y medio. De entrada sorprende que le cause tanta indignación un comentario de hace nada más y nada menos que 29 meses, es decir, 870 días. En cualquier caso, decido revisar las contribuciones de dicho usuario en la Biquipedia en aragonés y en otros proyectos wikipédicos. En primer lugar, constato que en la Wikipedia en español el usuario Pompilos hace con frecuencia ediciones relativas a mitología griega y a temas relacionados con la comunidad autónoma española de Navarra pero que en la Biquipedia en aragonés sus ediciones no corresponden en ningún caso a esas temáticas salvo una, que comentarè posteriormente. Veo que sus ediciones en la Biquipedia se centran siempre en buscar motivos de discusión y enfrentamiento. Sus 32 ediciones en más de 7 años se resumen en: discusiones sobre el idioma vasco, sobre un político independentista catalán (exigiendo además que se retirase su "alma mater" cuando justamente eso estaba presente en la Wikipedia en castellano sin que el usuario hubiese expresado allí ninguna queja) y protestando de que se bloquee la página cuando acaba de revertir a un administrador, a lo que dedica en total 6 de sus 32 ediciones; a discutir que no es lo mismo Biquipedia aragonesa que Biquipedia en aragonés, a modificar por su cuenta un topónimo porque en su idioma se dice así, a protestar por el uso de imágenes no libres en la Biquipedia (un tercio de sus ediciones totales) y a introducir información errónea intencionadamente (como puede comprobarse en la web del obispado). Además se permite "invitar a todos los administradores" a que le den explicaciones a sus evidentes delirios de carácter político y a decidir por su cuenta borrar ni más ni menos que 120 imágenes. Uno, dos, tres administradores le responden y el usuario contesta con evidente tono descortés para después acusarlos de vulnerar los derechos humanos y amenaza con exigir a instancias superiores que borren las 120 imágenes en cuestión. Un cuarto administrador le vuelve a explicar por cuarta vez la política de licencias y aquí ya se desata el usuario Pompilos con una contestación ofensiva pidiendo que "aprenda modales". Todo este comportamiento demuestra que existe una evidente prueba que desvirtúa la presunción de buena fe, pero es que aún hay más. El usuario Pompilos también ha hecho ediciones de este tipo en al menos otra wikipedia, la wikipedia en catalán. Allí también dice recibir insultos de otros usuarios y administradores y plantea las mismas exigencias de que se recrimine a varios usuarios por ello, y efectúa el mismo tipo de ediciones en artículos, con larguísimos hilos de disquisiciones sobre el uso de una palabra concreta. Después de revisar personalmente todo este conjunto de datos, constato que me hallo en presencia o bien de alguien con muchas ganas de hacer perder el tiempo a los administradores y usuarios de proyectos en otros idiomas, es decir, un perfecto ejemplo de troll, o bien ante alguien que cree estar llevando a cabo una cruzada contra quienes hablan o escriben un idioma diferente al suyo. En cualquier caso, alguien cuyo objetivo en la Biquipedia no es mejorar los contenidos de dicha enciclopedia sino hacer perder tiempo, energía y recursos, de modo que la mejor manera de evitar comportamientos disruptivos de ese tipo es proceder a bloquear para siempre al usuario. Para terminar, por enésima vez se vuelve a explicar que el señor Cristian Laglera Bailo, responsable del blog Despoblados de Huesca, es el autor de las imágenes, que utiliza para sus propias publicaciones que han merecido la Pajarita de Bronce de Sociedad en los Premios Altoaragoneses del Año 2022 y es evidente que no desea cederlas para uso comercial por parte de terceros. Si el proyecto en el que participa el usuario Pompilos decidió utilizar únicamente imágenes de Commons y las imágenes que se suben a Commons incluyen el uso comercial libre por terceras personas, las imágenes del señor Laglera no pueden ser usadas en la Wikipedia en español. Si el usuario Pompilos desea usarlas, lo primero que debe hacer es convencer a su propia comunidad para que cambie su política oficial de uso de imágenes y lo segundo, solicitar del señor Laglera la autorización para su uso con fines educativos y culturales no comerciales en su proyecto wikipédico, algo que más que probablemente el señor Laglera autorizará gustosamente como autorizó su uso en la Biquipedia en aragonés. Y, para información del usuario Pompilos, las imágenes que se suben a una wikipedia sólo están disponibles para dicha wikipedia y, si se desea usarlas en otra diferente, han de volverse a subir en esta segunda wikipedia, de modo que las imágenes no libres en la Wikipedia en inglés sólo están disponibles en la wikipedia en inglés, sin que hasta ahora nadie haya acusado, que yo sepa, a la wikipedia en inglés de practicar conductas nacionalistas inglesas. Lazaro d'Aragón (talk) 22:13, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

As I read through your Request and Statement, I also Hope that the WP Community and Administration can review this and help restore the community image to make all decisions fair and debatable beyond any reasonable doubt to allow a request as this causing a loss in trust for the community as a whole.

The above action of getting blocked for raising a concern means to negate other's freedom to speak as consequences might arise as yours, if i shouldn't speak of my concern then nothing is free or fair around here. Ceonmintoh (talk) 20:09, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

User Willtron, 1) With the expression "I haven't found any (severe?) insult to him" you state two contradictory things: a) without what you include in brackets, you state that you have not found any insult, and b) with what you include in brackets, you state that you have found insult(s) that you doubt to be severe. Anyway, since you "support them and their positions here" (their positions include the repeated attribution to me of a mental disorder), it logically follows that you support the insults by both Cembo123 and Lazaro d'Aragón that I have quoted and linked here above. (Sadly, it logically follows as well that I have now been insulted by three WP:AN administrators, almost 50% of all of them.)

2) You surprisingly claim that "[I] had the possibility to defend [myself]". You probably mean that I had the right of defense while I was not accused of anything, but this right only rises when one is accused. And the fact is that the accusation was simultaneous with the blocking without the possibility of alleging anything. Conclusion: Indeed, I had no right of defense at all.

3) About the rest of your intervention, you make judgments of intentions (so unfounded, that you do not support them with quotes or links to my interventions), you invent falsehoods (that I do not understand Aragonese), you make anti-democratic statements (that I am "an external member of the community", referring to the author of 32 legitimate editions over seven years) and you insist on diverting attention, as Lazaro d’Aragón did, to the discussion finished two years ago about the license of non-free images, when I have been blocked in the right moment when I requested to delete insulting expressions addressed to me. Best regards. Pompilos (talk) 10:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Bufff, que pereza responder a alguien que no quiere entender. Usted presume de realizar 32 ediciones legítimas, si son legítimas pero pocas son constructivas, más bien como se ha dicho varias veces disruptivas e intentando imponer su criterio sin ni siquiera intentar las soluciones que se le proponen. Como por ejemplo contactar con el señor Laglera propietario de las imágenes que tienen esa "licencia nacionalista" que tanto le preocupa y convencerle de que renuncie a su uso comercial para que las pueda utilizar ud. a su placer como se le ha dicho ya innumerables veces. Por ciento en la wikipedia en inglés y en catalán entre otras wikipedias tambien se utiliza esa, ¿licencia nacionalista? o como se diría esto imágines no libres, imatges no lliures y ahí a pesar de que dominas perfectamente esos idiomas no has manifestado tu rechazo a este tipo de "licencia nacionalista".

Por otro lado, el comportamiento de este usuario no es único en la biquipedia en aragonés, las ediciones de este usuario también han sido merecedoras de más de una advertencia y dos bloqueos temporales en la wikipedia en catalán por "comportamiento intimidatorio y hostil" en la que prácticamente no ha vuelto a contribuir desde entonces, haciéndolo, que curioso, también por sintirse ofendio e insultado y pidiendo que se retiren unos supuestos insultos.

Ya por último como se puede comprobar la mayoría de mis aportaciones en la biquipedia en aragonés son principalmente "nacionalistas" como me dice una y otra vez este usuario (quiero pensar que no lo dice en tono despectivo o con ánimo de insultar u ofender, sino por ignorancia) siendo la mayor parte de mis aportaciones de deportistas, principalmente de atletas de maratón, no precisamente aragoneses ni españoles y actores estadounidenses.

Deja ya de hacer perder el tiempo a todos y céntrate en ser constructivo donde estés a gusto con tus ideales e intereses. --Cembo123 (talk) 13:18, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

To whom it may concern. The sysop Lazaro d'Aragón, who blocked me without right of defense, has intervened in this request by referring to many of my editions in three wikipedias (in WP in Aragonese, Spanish and Catalan) without reasoning why they would be illegitimate. Additionally he defends the non-free license that nobody questioned for the last two years. These are not the subject of the discussion, but the one stated in its title, and I will not make the mistake of justifying them. Anyway, I will point out that:

1) Lazaro d'Aragón states that, upon reading my complaint, he was surprised that a "comment [that's what he calls attributing a mental disorder in a discussion] from 870 days ago outraged [me]”. He does not understand that, every day that the offending expressions remain public, the person continues being offended: 870 days=870 times, and as many as will pass until it is deleted (it has not yet been deleted).

2) He claims that, when he read my request, he “decided to review the contributions of that user in the Biquipedia in Aragonese and in other wikipedic projects”. He does not explain why he did so if I was the complainant and the insulting expression was pretty clear. Did he so because (as there are only about 10.000 speakers of Aragonese in the world and only 7 active sysops in the WP:AN) the sysop denounced is a collaborator and probably a friend of his?

3) In this last intervention, he uses again an insulting expression addressed to me: “his obvious delusions of a political nature” (as “delusions” in English, “delirios” is used in Spanish in reference to mental conditions). This insult is in addition to the three-time use of the word “paranoia” to refer to me: once here and twice here, in the explanation of the blockade, an inappropriate actitude in a sysop.

4) All the three administrators of WP:AN who have intervened here (Willtron, Lazaro d’Aragón and Cembo123) insist that they cannot "waste their time" with my interventions in WP:AN. They seem to not yet know that arguing with a wikipedian who has different opinion is not a waste of time, but an activity mandatory to all of us so to preserve the freedom of expression in WP. And that removing the insulting expressions addressed to an editor is not a waste of time, but a mandatory task for a sysop.

Due to the obvious injustice of the blockade, I must be readmitted to WP in Aragonese with all rights intact, and the expressions directed at me deleted. (I ping the active WP:AN administrators who have not intervened, so that this situation does not continue out of ignorance of those responsible for the project WP:AN: EduardoGG, Iggy1975, Juanpabl and Lascorz). Pompilos (talk) 21:52, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

(Spanish) Comentario: nótese la fobia enfermiza que manifiesta el personaje con comentarios como este, ya que no le veo protestar que la Category:English Wikipedia deba renombrarse como "in english", o que la Category:French Wikipedia como "in french" o la Category:Spanish Wikipedia como "in spanish". Revierto su edición y aquí acaba mi participación en este hilo. Lazaro d'Aragón (talk) 10:09, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

"Wikipedia in Aragonese" (as "Wikipedia en español" and so on) is an expression more in line with the truth than "Aragonese Wikipedia": that is why that expression is used here and here, although not here. Anyway, this is just a minor difference of opinion between Lazaro d'Aragón and me. What is important is that, once again, when faced with a difference of opinion, this WP:AN sysop disrespects me, contravening the Universal Code of Conduct. He has defined my editing with the insulting terms "sick phobia", which are applied to psychological disorders (fourth time, after having used three times the term "paranoia" to refer to my opinions), and he has referred to me as "personaje" (a term that in Spanish has derogatory connotation, as explained in this dictionary, similar to the English "a piece of work"), instead of the neutral words "person" or "editor". This should not be tolerated. Pompilos (talk) 22:42, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Misunderstanding. (Traducido al español por cortesía mía en la página de discusión de Lázaro d'Aragón) As @Lazaro d'Aragón: did not include the diffs of the edits for which he blocked me, I did not understand until now what he meant by "Disruptive behaviour with paranoia about what he calls nationalist licensing" (here). I thought he was lying, because since 23 July 2021 I have not mentioned again the alleged nationalism of the licensing of those images. Now I finally realised that this all stems from an error of reading comprehension on his part. In November 2023 I made this edition, in which I replaced a non-free image with a freely licensed one made by me, with this summary: "Freely licensed photo" (note that I did not say that the image I removed was "nationalistic", which I disclaimed two years earlier, but non-free, which is true). Lazaro reversed my edition and put as a summary "On Biquipedia there is no problem in using non-free images (...)". For this edition Lazaro attributes to me an insistent "paranoia about what he calls nationalist licences", which is false, because I have not spoken of nationalist/non-nationalist, but of free/non-free, and I have admitted for more than two years that both can be used in WP:AN (with this caveat). So I invite the administrator Lazaro d'Aragón to acknowledge that he misinterpreted my edit and revoke the block he placed on me based in part on that error.

Furthermore, from what I have recently discovered, my edition was according to the rules, while Lazaro with his reversion violated a rule stated in Wikimedia Licensing Policy p. 3: "Any content used under an EDP must be replaced with a freely licensed work whenever one is available which will serve the same educational purpose". I also invite him to replace in the article Usieto the image he posted (if the first picture does not serve the same educational purpose, this one does) in contravention of the rules. If he do not do so, he will be knowingly and publicly defying WPL Rule 3, and any of the other five active WP:AN administrators (@Cembo123, Willtron, EduardoGG, Iggy1975, Juanpabl, and Lascorz:, and @EBRO:) should sanction him for it after a reasonble time. Pompilos (talk) 17:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

It is difficult from users unaware of internal issues of Aragone wiki to learn about the issue and feel confident to weigh in. Specially since it looks like something that happened a while ago. So, many things come to mind. Is it enough to someone from Meta intervene on local issues? Is it worthwhile to discuss it after the time that passed?

I wonder if it's possible to clarify what is the main purpose of this request so maybe we can focus. Is it about licensing issues and using non-free files on that project? Is it about the local block? Is it about allegedly insulting comments from a sysop? —Teles «Talk ˱_{C L @ S}˲» 02:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Teles, it doesn't matter how much time has passed: the block is unjust, its effects are still in force and what happened constitutes a violation of the Universal Code of Conduct (insults and abuse of power) by all the seven sysops of Wikipedia in Aragonese (three actively and four passively), that is, the management contrary to the rules of an entire project. The purpose of this RfC is clear, but I repeat it to clarify your doubts. In WP:AN a sysop (Cembo123) insulted a user (me, Pompilos), and when I ask he to be reprimanded, another sysop (Lazaro d'Aragón) endorses the previous insults and also permanently blocks the insulted user without any right to defence. A third sysop (Willtron) agrees with the previous ones, and the other four (EduardoGG, Iggy1975, Juanpabl, and Lascorz) do not intervene to correct the insults and abuse of power even though they are aware of the situation and, according to the UCoC, are obliged to do so. Best regards. Pompilos (talk) 14:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)