Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Dalmatian

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Dalmatian Wikipedia

See also second proposal (rejected).

main page Requests for new languages (Wikipedia Dalmatian)
submitted verification final decision
Process-stop.svg This proposal has been rejected.
This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

Extinct Romance language, not a Slavic one. More details may be found at w:Dalmatian language. Millosh 17:23, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

{{New language proposal

|language  = Dalmatian (Dalmatinski,dlm ISO 639-3)
|links     = development wiki project
|community = --Komit 16:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC) (NP) , Krajishnik(N) , Knindja(N) , Mirko533(N)
  Maks(N) 
|external  = [http://www.ethnologue.org/show_language.asp?code=dlm
 http://www.krajinaforce.com]



Arguments for

Dalmatian Language is language which is spoken in Dalmatia. It sounds like Serbian and Montenegrin , but Dalmatia is today part of Croatia , and government of Republic of Croatia is trying to assimilate Dalmatian culture and language. Dalmatia was part of Serbian medieval state , not Croatian , and it save lot of its hereditary.

Today original Dalmatian language is extinct , but Serbian dialect spoken in this area can be treated like separate language.

We are NOT Croatians. We had our state in 7.century , and Croatians have their from 18. or 19.century.

Please support us , and help us to get Wikipedia on our own language . It can help Dalmatian language to recover and Dalmatian nation to survive.

Dalmacija ima dugu i bogatu istoriju , kulturu . Dalmacija nikad do 1918 nije bila dio Hrvatske. Mi Dalmatinci imamo svoju književnost još od srednjeg vijeka , a naš se jezik potpuno razlikuje od Hrvatskog(Kajkavskog) .

Hrvati čak ni ne govore svoj jezik u zvaničnim poslovima , već koriste štokavski srpski dijalekt iz južne Dalmacije i Hercegovine.


The Štokavian dialect is spoken in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the southern part of Austria’s Burgenland, and in part of Croatia. The Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian standard languages are all based on the Neo-Štokavian dialect. Its name comes from the form for the interrogatory pronoun "what," which is što or šta in the Štokavian dialect. This is in contrast to the Croatian dialects of Kajkavian and Čakavian (kaj and ča also meaning "what").

The primary subdivisions of Štokavian are based on 2 principles: one is whether the subdialect is Old-Štokavian or Neo-Štokavian, and the different ways the old Slavic phoneme jat has been changed. Generally, modern dialectology recognizes 7 Štokavian subdialects (there are opinions that one or two subdialects more exist, but this is not universally accepted).

Early history of Štokavian

The Proto-Štokavian idiom had appeared in the 12th century. In the following century or two, Štokavian was divided into two zones: western, which covered the major part of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Slavonia in Croatia, and eastern, dominant in the easternmost Bosnia and Herzegovina and greater parts of Montenegro and Serbia. The western Štokavian was characterized by 3-accents speech, while eastern štokavian was marked by 2-accents. According to the research of historical linguistics, the old-štokavian was well established by the mid-1400s. In this period it had been still mixed with Church Slavonic in various degrees, as well as with Chakavian dialect in Croatia and many parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Štokavian subdialects

The Štokavian dialect is divided into Old-Shtokavian and Neo-Shtokavian subdialects.

Old-Shtokavian

Timok-Prizren (Torlakian)

Main article: Torlakian

The oldest dialects stretch southeast from Timok near the Bulgarian border to Prizren. There is disagreement among linguists whether these dialects belong to Štokavian area, as there are many other morphological characteristics apart from rendering of što which would place them into a "transitional" group between Štokavian and Eastern South Slavic languages (Bulgarian and Macedonian). These dialects split from the rest of the group at the onset of the Turkish conquest in the fourteenth century. The Timok-Prizren group falls to the Balkan linguistic union: declension has all but disappeared, the infinitive has yielded to subjunctives da-constructions, and adjectives are compared exclusively with suffixes. The accent in the dialect group is a stress accent, and it falls on any syllable in the word. The old semi-vowel has been retained throughout. The vocalic l has been retained (vlk = vuk), and some dialects don't distinguish ć/č and đ/dž by preferring the latter, postalveolar variants. Some subdialects preserve l at the end of words (where otherwise it has developed into a short o)Template:Ndash došl, znal, etc. (cf. Kajkavian and Bulgarian); in others, this l has become the syllable ja.

These speeches are dominant in Metohija,around Prizren,Gnjilane and Štrpce especially,in Southern Serbia around Bujanovac,Vranje,Leskovac,Niš,Aleksinac,in the part of Toplica Valley around Prokuplje, in Eastern Serbia around Pirot, Svrljig, Soko Banja,Boljevac,Knjaževac ending up with the area around Zaječar, where Kosovo-Resava dialect becomes more dominant.

Slavonian

Also called the Šokački [citation needed] or Archaic Šćakavian dialect, it is spoken by Šokci that live in some parts of Slavonia, Bačka, Baranja, Syrmia, in Croatia and Vojvodina, as well as in northern Bosnia. The Slavonian dialect has mixed ikavian and ekavian pronunciation. Ikavian is predominant in the Posavina, Baranja, Bačka, and in the Slavonian sub-dialect enclave of Derventa, while ekavian is predominant in Podravina. There are also enclaves of one of both variants in the main territory of other and vice-versa, as well as mixed ekavian-ikavian and jekavian-ikavian areas. In some villages in Hungary the original yat is preserved. Local variants can widely differ in the degree of neo-shtokavian accent influences. In two villages in Posavina, Siče and Magića Male the l, as in the verb nosil, has been retained in place of the modern nosio. In some villages in the Podravina čr instead of the usual cr is preserved, for example in črn instead of crn. Both forms are usual in Kajkavian but very rare in Shtokavian.

East-Bosnian

Also called jekavian šćakavian, it has jekavian pronunciation in the vast majority of local forms and it is spoken by the majority of Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) living in area that include bigger Bosnian cities Sarajevo, Tuzla and Zenica, and by most of Croats and Serbs that live in that area. Together with basic jekavian pronunciation, mixed pronunciations exist in Tešanj and Maglaj dete-djeteta (ekavian-jekavian) and around Žepče and Jablanica djete-diteta (jekavian-ikavian). In the central area of the subdialect, the diphthong uo exists in some words instead of the archaic l and more common u like vuok or stuop, instead of the standard modern vuk and stup.

Zeta-South Sandžak

Also known as Old Ijekavian. It is spoken in eastern Montenegro, in Podgorica and Cetinje, around the city of Novi Pazar in eastern Sandžak in Serbia, and in the village of Peroj in Istria. Together with the dominant jekavian pronunciation, mixed pronunciations like djete-deteta (jekavian-ekavian) around Novi Pazar and Bijelo Polje, dite-đeteta (ikavian-jekavian) around Podgorica and dete-đeteta (ekavian-jekavian) in the village of Mrkojevići in southern Montenegro. Mrkovići are also characterised by remainings of čr instead of cr as in the previously mentioned villages in Podravina.

Some vernaculars have a special reflex of ь/ъ in some cases (between a and e) which is very rare in stokavian and chakavian vernaculars (sän and dän instead of san and dan). Other special phonetic features include sounds like ʝ in iʝesti instead of izjesti, ç as in śjekira instead of sjekira. However these sounds are known also to many East-Herzegovina like those in Konavle[1], and are not "Montenegrin" specificum. The loss of distinction between /lj/ and /l/ in some vernaculars is based on Albanian adstrate. Word pļesma is a hypercorrection (instead of pjesma) since many vernaculars know lj>j.

All verbs in infinitive finish with "t" (example: pjevat). These future have also most respective vernaculars of East-Herzegovinian, and actually almost all Serbian and Croatian vernaculars. The group a + o gave a ("ka" instead "kao", reka for rekao), like in other Serbian and Croatian seaside vernaculars. Otherwise, more common is ao>o.

Currently there is an attempt by Montenegrin nationalists to create a separate Montenegrin language from the Serbian language standard based on the Zeta subdialect.

Kosovo-Resava

Also called Older Ekavian, spoken mostly in western and northeastern Kosovo ( Kosovo Valley with Kosovska Mitrovica and also around Peć ),in Ibar Valley with Kraljevo,around Kruševac,Trstenik and in Župa,in the part of Toplica Valley ( Kuršumlija ) in Morava Valley (Jagodina,Ćuprija,Paraćin,Lapovo),in Resava Valley (Svilajnac,Despotovac) and northeastern Serbia ( Smederevo,Požarevac,Bor,Majdanpek,Negotin,Velika Plana ) with one part of Banat (around Kovin, Bela Crkva and Vršac).

Substitution of jat is dominantly ekavian even on the end of datives (žene instead of ženi), in pronouns (teh instead of tih), in comparatives (dobrej instead of dobriji) and in the negative of biti (nesam instead of nisam) and in Smederevo-Vršac speeches ikavian forms can be found (di si instead of gde si?. ). However, Smederevo-Vršac speeches (spoken in northeastern Serbia and Banat) are considered to be part of a separate dialect,as they represent mixed speeches of Šumadija-Vojvodina and Kosovo-Resava speeches.

Neo-Shtokavian

Western Ikavian

Also called Bosnian-Dalmatian, Younger Ikavian is spoken mostly by Croats that live in Lika, Kvarner, Dalmatia, Herzegovina and Bačka. Bosniaks in western Bosnia mostly around city of Bihać (Bosanska Krajina) and in central Bosnia (Travnik, Jajce, Bugojno,..) used to speak this dialect. Exclusively ikavian, Bosnian and Herzegovinian forms use o in verb participle, while those in Dalmatia and Lika use -ija or ia like in vidija/vidia. Local form of Bačka was proposed as base of new Bunjevac language proposed standard by some Bunjevci in Vojvodina.

Šumadija-Vojvodina

Also called Younger Ekavian, is spoken across most of Vojvodina, north-west Serbia,around Kragujevac and Valjevo in Šumadija,in Mačva but only around Šabac and Bogatić excluding Loznica and Podrinje,in Belgrade and in eastern Croatia around the town of Vukovar. It is dominately ekavian (ikavian forms are of morphophonological origin). In some parts of Vojvodina old declination is preserved. Most Vojvodina dialects and some dialects in Sumadija have an opened e and o. However the vernaculars of western Serbia, and in past to them connected vernaculars of (old) Belgrade and southwestern Banat (Borča, Pančevo, Bavanište) are close to standard as a vernacular can be. The dialect presents a base for the Serbian Ekavian standard.

East Herzegovinian

Also called East Herzegovina-Krajina and Younger Ijekavian. It is the biggest Shtokavian and Serbo-Croatian dialect. It is spoken in western Montenegro (region called Old Herzegowina), by most Bosnian Serbs, Croatian Serbs as well in western Serbia and by very few Croats in Slavonia, Banija, Kordun where Serbs used to be majority and as well in east of Neretva around city of Dubrovnik, and is the basis of the Serbian standard, while Croatian standard is based on the historical mixture of few dialects, including non-shtokavian. Its south-eastern form is characterised by the total lack of /x/ sound that is sometimes not only left out or replaced by more common /j/ or /v/ but is replaced as well by less common /k/ and /g/ (bijak, bijaku imperfect of verb biti). Local forms in the Žumberak enclave and around Dubrovnik have some special features, influenced from Chakavian and the western subdialect.

The yat reflexes

The Proto-Slavic vowel jat has changed over time and is now being rendered in three different ways or reflexes:

  • In Ekavian (ekavski), jat has morphed into the vowel e
  • in Ikavian (ikavski), the vowel i
  • in Ijekavian or Jekavian (ijekavski or jekavski), the diphthong ije or je depending on whether the vowel was long or short.

There is also ilyric y(voice beetwen e,i and u) which is conected with celtic ancestry

Historically, the yat reflexes had been inscribed in Church Slavic texts before the significant development of štokavian dialect, reflecting the beginnings of the formative period of the vernacular. In early documents it is still either almost exclusively or predominantly Church Slavic of Serbian or Croatian variant (technical term is recension). First undoubtedly ekavian "yat reflex" had been inscribed in a document in Serbia ("beše"/it was), dated 1289, ikavian in Bosnia in 1331 ("svidoci"/witnesses), and first ijekavian in Croatia in 1399 ("želijemo"/we wish, a "hyperijekavism"). Partial inscriptions can be found in earlier texts (for instance, ikavian form is written in a few Bosnian documents in the latter half of the 13th century), but philologists generally accept the aforementioned data for yat reflexes. In second half of 20th century, many vernaculars with unsubstituted yat are found.[2] The intrusion of the vernacular into Church Slavic grew in time, to be finally replaced by the vernacular idiom. This process has taken place for Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks independently and without mutual interference until the mid-19th century. Historical linguistics, textual analysis and dialectology have dispelled myths about allegedly "unspoilt" vernacular speech of rural areas: for instance, it is established that Bosniaks have retained phoneme "h" in numerous words (unlike Serbs and Croats), due to elementary religious education based on the Koran, where this phoneme is the carrier of specific semantic value.

Ekavian, sometimes called eastern, is spoken primarily in Serbia, and very limited area in eastern Croatia. Ikavian, sometimes called western, is spoken in western and central Bosnia, western Herzegovina, in Slavonia and the major part of Dalmatia in Croatia. Ijekavian, sometimes called southern, is spoken in many parts of Croatia including southern Dalmatia, most of Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro. The following are some generic examples:

English Slavic-Croatian Dalmatian
time vrěme vreme vrime vrijeme
beautiful lěp lep lip lijep
girl děvojka devojka divojka djevojka
true věran veran viran vjeran
to sit sědĕti sedeti (sèdeti) siditi sjediti
to grow gray hairs sědeti sedeti (sédeti) siditi sijediti
to heat grějati grejati grijati grijati

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Other discussion

Croatians hates Dalmatians , I know this , but they have their Croatian Wikipedia , and we can got our own . For example , in Great Britain they have Welsh , Cornish and Scottish Wikipedia and no one Englishman protests against it. But on Balkans it can not go without trouble . Somebody must attack us , or it is not Balkans.

I must be being stupid; can you show me some independent verification of this language existing and being spoken now and being distinct from other languages in this area? The ethnoloque link shows an extinct language and I can't understand the second link. Tombomp 18:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
One of the best jokes i ever seen here. Let us make a wiki for each city and perhaps for each village we know! :))) --Seha 11:02, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


Gluposti

Čovječe, o čemu vi pričate? Vi možda jeste Dalmatinci regionalno, ali ste nacionalno Srbi, pa imate Wikipediju na srpskom jeziku! Po vašem mjerilu, mogli bismo otvoriti wikipediju na 1000 lokalnih narječja bivše Jugoslavije! I ja prvi govorim od rođenja štokavski i (i)jekavski, a nije dalmatinski ni hercegovački(trebinjski!) nego bosanski, koji je potekao od sredovjekovnih bosanskih vladara Kotromanića: katolika i Hrvata.

  1. Kašić, Govor Konavla, SDZb XLI (1995), 241-396
  2. P. Ivić, Putevi razvoja srpskohrvatskog vokalizma, Voprosy jazykoznanija VII/1 (1958), revised in Iz istorije srpskohrvatske dijalektologije, Niš 1991