Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Xibe

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←main page Request for a new language edition: Wikipedia Xibe

​

submitted verification final decision
Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code sjo (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Xibe Language name in English
Language name ᠰᡳᠪᡝ ᡤᡳᠰᡠᠨ Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q13223 - item has currently the following values:
 Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality Vertical, LTR per lines Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Online keyboard by abkai.net Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL sjo.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name ᠸᡞ᠌ᡣᡞᡦᡝᡩ᠋ᡞ᠌ᠶᠠ "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace ᠸᡞ᠌ᡣᡞᡦᡝᡩ᠋ᡞ᠌ᠶᠠ usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo File:Wikipedia-logo-v2-mnc-mong.svg This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone Asia/Shanghai "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit Phabricator task. It will include everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings. After creating the task, add a link to the comment.

Proposal[edit]

  • Number of speakers: 30,000 people
  • Locations spoken: Qapqal Xibe Autonomous County

— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Foavi33 (talk) 2021-01-03 20:08 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • According to w:Censorship of Wikipedia, Wikipedia is blocked in China, and none of the articles on the English Wikipedia imply that there's any sort of Xibe diaspora. A language with 30,000 speakers online would struggle; a language with 30,000 speakers who can't edit Wikipedia seems hopeless.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:01, 4 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • @Prosfilaes: For the currently connection method of accessing Wikimedia sites in China, see H:HOSTS. Also, it seems that one user @MiiCii: (IIRC) is interested in contributing Wikipedias in all (believe me, just all) of the Tungusic languages, and asked some of their friends on Incubator to see any possibles of contributing. I've just provided the list of them below. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:41, 4 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Which strikes me as a bit problematic. People shouldn't be opening Wikimedia projects in languages they aren't fluent, and preferably native in.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:39, 5 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Prosfilaes: About this issue, I'd love to copy-paste some sentences from @MiiCii: on incubator, by [1] and [2]:

lit.

--Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:58, 5 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Liuxinyu970226: from your sentences, it must be likely to let me say that MiiCii made a damnly lie for you and us: "The Japanese is a Tungusic language". Well @Whym, Rxy, Sotiale, Tmv, and Penn Station: are we really sure this? 日本語は満州語とは何の関係もありません！(there are no relations between Japanese and Manchu languages!) thank you for copy-pasting. --117.136.54.60 01:24, 5 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@117.136.54.60: Hey, I'm not copy-pasting done (Quip: both Incubator and Meta-Wiki are CC BY-SA, so copy-pasting is Okay with mentioned the author(s) and obey same license), that user later removed all thing that mentioned Japanese. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:31, 5 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@117.136.54.60: Attention please. あなたの気持ちは理解できます。中国語で入力したので、意味が十分に伝わっていないと思います。私は「日本語はツングース諸語に属する(The Japanese is a Tungusic language)」とは思いません。トークページで私は「満州語と日本語は同質の語順を持つ言語」(中国語:一门和满语共享同质的语序)であると言いましたが、別に「同質の言語」であるとは言っていません。これは特に両言語が共にSOV語順に従う言語であるからです。津曲敏郎氏は生前、消滅の危機に瀕するツングース語において、日本語とツングース諸語の「単語の並び方」と「文章の構造」の相似性について言及しています、これは貴方が「何の関係もありません」と言い切れるものではありません。
個別単語の相似性についても断言(A is B)はしてはいません。例え日本語とツングース諸語間の借用関係が将来証明されたとしても（今のところはそれを証明する歴史的資料すら存在しないと自分勝手に思っていますが）、「日本語はツングース諸語である」という主張とは所詮別物です。今、私たちが話している日本語に英語やフランス語から借用された単語があるからと言って、「日本語はゲルマン諸語の一つである」とか「日本語はロマンス諸語に属する」ということはできないでしょう。
かつて日本で育った過去があるので、満洲語の語順を苦労することなくマスターできました。これについては日本の方々及び日本の言語に感謝の意を述べるほかありません。しかし、日本語に対する発言が、そう理解されたことについては誠に遺憾に思います。--MiiCii 08:45, 8 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Please don't ping me for routine conversations. There was a big fuss about the Scots Wikipedia, and that was done for entirely positive reasons as well. Opening Wikipedias "to preserve language" can actively hurt languages.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • By the end of next week, I will try to carry out systematic consultation with my Xibe native speakers friends, and I hope to start active editing in the near future. From now on, I will edit entries to be aware of the authenticity of the source and try to avoid editing anything that is not corroborated to avoid misleading the reader.

MiiCii 13:11, 6 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • @MiiCii: Then, how do you think about what Prosfilaes said, especially "Opening Wikipedias to preserve language can actively hurt languages."? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:29, 9 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Liuxinyu970226: I'm not sure what the connection is between editing the Wikipedia dictionary and actively hurting languages. I have to see the Request for Scots Wikipedia the User mentioned above thoroughly.—-MiiCii 03:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    @Prosfilaes: Since then, I think you really need to explain that why creating such test projects can "actively hurting languages", at least to me and MiiCii. Also, there's nothing related between this Wikipedia request and Scots Wikipedia, because this is an Asian language to which Scots is an European language instead. (@MiiCii: the Scots Wikipedia already exists, though they have some content issues mentioned at this RFC). --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:09, 11 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Read Requests_for_comment/Large_scale_language_inaccuracies_on_the_Scots_Wikipedia. An English speaker wrote large chunks of the Scots Wikipedia, resulting in large chunks of the Scots Wikipedia being bad Scots and often Scots-flavored English, and apparently even third parties to base their understanding of Scots on this large database of what was supposed to be Scots. It has nothing to do with European versus Asian; if people who don't speak Xibe write the Xibe Wikipedia, it will at best produce a Wikipedia that's not in good Xibe, and at worst the fallacies and misunderstandings of the real language spoken by real speakers will change the language Xibe speakers actually speak, actively killing the real language.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:42, 15 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    As a non-native speaker, no amount of exposure to a language can make it a first language. Hence, it would be best to invite native speakers to edit. I'm just a learner of Xibe language but willing to help out. Sooner or later, there will be a way to solve this problem. I will not give up until a solution is found.--MiiCii (talk) 10:25, 17 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Just now I have succeed to consult the page of ᠴᠠᠪᠴᠠᠯ ᠰᡳᠪᡝ ᡯᡳᡷᡳᠰᡳᠶᠠᠨ (CabCal Xibe Autonomous County in Xibe Wikipedia) with an elder native speaker of Xibe on WeChat. All of the edit of 09:30, 21 January 2021 was not written by myself, but a native Xibe speaker. The signature of the speaker's name was enclosed in the summary. Besides, The article was translated from Mandarin Wikipedia. --MiiCii (talk) 11:19, 17 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Is there someone that could gently help me for the typing the words of the logo? Thanks in advance!!! --2001:B07:6442:8903:F9E7:363F:33BF:1CA7 09:19, 7 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@2001:B07:6442:8903:F9E7:363F:33BF:1CA7:Hope this logo will be helpful to you.
Online keyboard of Xibe script is able to input the words of logo.
By the way, Do you mean the words of logo in Xibe script? (ᠸᡳᡴᡳᡦᡝᡩᡳᠠ, I'm not sure how to display the Xibe script vertically on Meta-wiki, please rotate the Xibe text above 90° clockwise) or the Manchu script on the Main Page of Xibe Wikipedia?
The logo on the Main Page of Xibe Wikipedia was written in Manchu script (ᡠᡳᡴᡳᡦᡝᡩᡳᠶᠠ), rather than Xibe script(ᠸᡳᡴᡳᡦᡝᡩᡳᠠ). Xibe script is created based on Manchu script, but there are difference between them. In Manchu, There is no syllable spelled as "wi (ᠸᡳ)" in twelve uju (syllables), while in Xibe script, the syllable is legal.
So it is quite necessary to convert the former icon in Manchu to the new one written in Xibe script.MiiCii 12:49, 7 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
When typing scripts with the help of the Template Wp/mnc/MongolUnicode, the sentences were displayed as the Manchu font.
It's urgently necessary for us to
1. To create or import a kind of Unicode (It must be start with "Template:Wp/sjo", not"Wp/mnc") that is able to display Xibe script correctly.
2. To find a better compatibility between traditional Xibe script (vertical) and Romanizationed transliteration. --MiiCii (talk) 11:07 10 January 2021 (UTC)
@MiiCii: About your logo, well, per foundation:Visual identity guidelines, you must choose Linux Libertine for latin scripts. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:54, 9 February 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Prosfilaes: Well the blockage of Chinese Wikipedia in Mainland China didn't stop Mainland China editors from becoming the largest share of contributor on Chinese Wikipedia, although the possibility of unblocking could lead to even more editors always exists. And, given there are much more external efforts on the language of Manchu than Xibe, I think Xibe is relatively less likely to suffer from the kind of situation you described. And according to an article I found online (This is a repost as original article was apparently published on something similar to Wechat MP), field study reveal nowadays in area inhabited by Xibe their languages are still being spoken not just natively but also by people of other groups around them. Another thing of note is that the article also mentioned the divergence of Xibe from Manchu as the people there and experts involved see it as start from middle of last century when a modified writing system was invented for Xibe which make it distinct from the original Manchu writing system which cause it to diverging and develop into separate. C933103 (talk) 09:01, 4 June 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
List of "test wikis" of Tungusic languages
Bold: has content pages, Italic: has no content pages, just a portal page
Language name Wp/ Wt/ Wb/ Wn/ Wq/ Wy/
Even incubator:Wp/eve incubator:Wt/eve incubator:Wb/eve - - -
Evenki incubator:Wp/evn incubator:Wt/evn incubator:Wb/evn - - -
Negidal incubator:Wp/neg incubator:Wt/neg incubator:Wb/neg - - -
Oroqen incubator:Wp/orh incubator:Wt/orh incubator:Wb/orh - - -
Oroch incubator:Wp/oac incubator:Wt/oac incubator:Wb/oac - - -
Udege incubator:Wp/ude incubator:Wt/ude incubator:Wb/ude - - -
Jurchen incubator:Wp/juc - - - - -
Manchu incubator:Wp/mnc incubator:Wt/mnc incubator:Wb/mnc incubator:Wn/mnc incubator:Wq/mnc incubator:Wy/mnc
Xibe incubator:Wp/sjo - - - - -
Nanai incubator:Wp/gld incubator:Wt/gld incubator:Wb/gld - - -
Orok incubator:Wp/oaa incubator:Wt/oaa incubator:Wb/oaa - - -
Ulch incubator:Wp/ulc incubator:Wt/ulc incubator:Wb/ulc - - -
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